Accuracy

[nighthunter]

Just how small of a group at 100 yards, or whatever your choice of range, do we need to be able to take a deer or elk or varmint. I know that hunting for the perfect bullet and load in the perfect caliber that shoots less than 1 inch groups is like finding the Holy Grail. I admit I have succumbed to this search ever since my father first taught me to shoot many many years ago. I remember being allowed to shoot his 03A3 for the first time. It knocked the snot out of me but he quit laughing when I said I wanted to shoot it again. For some reason even at a young age I wouldn't let the gun beat me. I can't honestly tell you how many rounds of ammo I have shot in the last almost 50 years ( years of shooting ) of shooting. Has to be into the 7 digits. 3/4 of which have been cast bullets. I've shot a lot of 1 hole groups with jacketed but cast is a whole different ballgame. I'm paying my dues as I go and learning all I can but I haven't found the one hole group yet.
I guess its a matter of finding what the gun likes the best with me doing my part. I know I don't need that perfect group to fill the freezer. I just love to shoot. Did I mention that I just love to shoot. Why can't the whole world love the smell of burnt powder as much as I do?
Nighthunter

[Char-Gar]

At ranges up to 200 yards, here are my accuracy standards for field use. Most loads will shoot well under, but these are the maximum accuracy standards for field use.

Deer - 3 MOA
smaller game 2 MOA

[KCSO]

The only problem I have shooting one hole groups involves the second shot, do I have to shoot one?

For deer 2 1/2" at 100 and for small game I limit my shots to around 50 yards so I want 1" at 50.
For match shooting I want 6" at 300 yards minimum of 5 shots and 10 is better, and that is tough to do with cast.

[snowwolfe]

If i have a rifle and it shoots 3 shots into 1.5 MOA I quit trying. Sometimes I get lucky and one shoots better than that but not likely.

[sundog]

Nighthunter, last question first. "Why can't the whole world love the smell of burnt powder as much as I do?" Good thing they don't, we can't afford it well enough now. btw, there's not a person on this earth that likes that smell better than me, that is all except Rl7. I gag on the ammonia smell.

If you want to see amazing cast boolit accuracy, hook up with single shot and schuetzen people. They will give you a lesson in humble, and most of them are such nice folks they show you all about it and let you shoot their guns. That said, generally speaking the more $s you put into a piece, if it's done properly for cast that is, the more accurate it will be - with the right boolit and powder. Now for some of everyday folks it's not much more than a pick of litter rack grade 03A3 that we fiddle with enough to ocassionally get sub 2MOA at a hunert (that's a 10-shot group). I put enough resources into building a mould and rifle in 35 Whelen that is MOA, consistently, at 200 yards - a little pricey, but very satisfying, but it ain't no rack grade 03.

Alot of this has to do with how much time and energy you want to expend experimenting. I've seen several "this thing don't shoot worth squat" pieces ressurected into very good accuracy just by trying alot of different combinations. Case in point is a Colt 1917 revolver that I had given up on years ago until I finally tried the 'right' boolit in it. Many times its not the boolit. You have three things working, the ammo (which you can do alot about real easy), the equipment (like the rifle which requires resources for barrels, sights, trued actions, etc.), and YOU. YOU is most often the biggest problem.

I figger that if I can hit what I'm aiming at, then it's accurate. But it's like Harry Calahan (Dirty Harry) said, "Ya gotta know yer limitations...." sundog

[David R]

NIght hunter,

I do hunt and have always been told A deer has an 8 to 10" kill zone and if you can hit that at 100 yards, your golden. WRONG!

If I read your question right, you want to know how big of a group you need for Deer, Elk......

I guess its what you have confidence in. Around here where I live now, they use shotguns with slugs to hunt deer because its the law, NO rifles allowed. Ever shoot slugs at 100 yards? 3" group is awesome. Rifled barrel and sabots may near 1" but even that in not average. I hunt with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 with a 2-6x scope. To Heck wit dose slug guns.

Some factory rifles with factory ammo will only shoot 3" at 100 yards.

Can ya hit a soda can at 100 yards with your deer rifle? Offhand? In my opinion, if you can you are golden for deer and small game at closer ranges.

David

[Four Fingers of Death]

It was an old SMLE No1 Mk111* which had been sporterised and rebarrelled, I was dynamite, everything I shot at, died. No problem. A few friends took me to the range one day and the best I could do was about 4" at 100 yards. I lost confidence in the rifle and moved on. I occurs to me that I used to select a small rock at about 100 yds when I arrived in the hunting area. Lined it up offhand and blammo. It always hit the rock and then I went a hunting. I wouldn't get excited about MOA accuracy with a hunting piece, unless you are going to shoot small varmints at long range. Minute of deer generally works ok.

[Bass Ackward]

I took some time to think about this post before I wrote it so I could say exactly what I want to say, hopefully without offending anyone. Understand that this is my opinion and how I approach this. Accuracy .... is the provobial seperator amongst guys for cast bullets. We all have differing opinions about accuracy and what it takes to get there. Our standards are usually based on what "we" can obtain. It should be based on what we can deliver.

For general purpose paper punching I can accept any accuracy standard because it "can be" your standard. And I want to be inclusive. It's all about fun. But nobody is hurt or suffers because you didn't come through.

But hunting accuracy is the most crucial in my mind. At least the understanding is critical. It doesn't matter whether you are using an open sighted handgun or a or scoped bolt. We all have to know our limit. Gun accuracy is just one factor in the equasion. The game, large or small, deserves your best effort.

If you have a four inch kill zone in which to operate in, then your maximum range with any firearm should be the distance to which you can hold within that circle. If you have a gun that shoots 4" and you can only hold 4" then the extremes added together are 8" and that is outside of the kill zone. The shooting distance needs to be cut in half. Therefore, if you can get a rifle to shoot 1", you can have a longer expected range to shoot. This takes presidence above caliber, case design, meplat size, etc, etc.

This is why 200 yards should be just about everyones off hand maximum. A rest obviously makes a difference. But this, above all, is why I strive for what most would term, "improbable accuracy". And I set my limits accordingly.

[Junior1942]

To me, hunting accuracy is 5 of 5 shots in a 6" bullseye. Maxium range is the longest range I can do that.

Cast bullet target accuracy is 5 shots in 2" or less at 100 yards.

[1Shirt]

I fall in probably between Charger and Junior 1942 just based on common sense, old eyes, the acceptance of reality.
1Shirt :coffeecom

[felix]

Junior, that would be just about perfect for me as well, assuming a beer can is 6 by 6. ... felix

[KevMT]

It was an old SMLE No1 Mk111* which had been sporterised and rebarrelled, I was dynamite, everything I shot at, died. No problem. A few friends took me to the range one day and the best I could do was about 4" at 100 yards. I lost confidence in the rifle and moved on. I occurs to me that I used to select a small rock at about 100 yds when I arrived in the hunting area. Lined it up offhand and blammo. It always hit the rock and then I went a hunting. I wouldn't get excited about MOA accuracy with a hunting piece, unless you are going to shoot small varmints at long range. Minute of deer generally works ok.

Mick I know what you mean. I have a rem 700 in 30-06 that is a real tack driver at the range. Using it's bipod and ja$%eted bullets I can pop a milk jug at 300 yards with with such boring regularity that it is hardly fun. But put a deer out in front of that gun and I can't seem to do it justice accuracy wise at any range. On the other hand this year my father in law gave me his original 1895 winchester in 30-40. It shoots groups from 4-6 inches @ 100. But at the beginning of the season I used it to take a muley doe at 125 yards by leaning over a bush. Plugged her right in the heart and she took one jump, keeled over, and went down.
I "think" there might be a problem with the fit of the 06 especially when I'm wearing 3-4 layers of clothes in the winter. Or maybe we are just not a good couple. Anyway I'm hoping that I can work up a good hunting load for the Wichester with the custom 311407 boolit.

KevMT

[The Nyack Kid]

for my standards, hunting accuracy is ,with lead , and open sights ,4 MOA is acceptable, better than that is well better . the boolit @ 100yard lands about 2inches from point of aim . this is with at least 10 shot being fired .with a bolt action scoped rifle shooting "that other type of boolit" I want at least 1.5 moa . it has been my experance that most "bragging" sized three shot groups are accidents, the real test of a rifle, load and shooter is at least 10 shots ,twenty is better .

[Doughty]

Nighthunter,

I would first refer you to the article "Group Sizes and Statistics" by "Joe B." in this forum's Shootin" Links!, Cast Bullet Articles. As I interpet the math, what he is saying is that, accuracy is not an absolute, but rather a probability, of how often we will miss and by how far, with any given set of components.

To me, when talking about "hunting accuracy," how small a group size, any particuliar firearm will fire from the bench, is immaterial, because it is almost never part of the set of components. Almost never will you get a shot, while hunting, when you are sitting at a shooting bench, with bags, etc., in place.

To me, the "suitably high probability of hitting a vital target under the existing circumstances, is adequate "hunting accuracy." Shortly put, practice how you hunt. For hunting I prefer to use as life like a target as I can get. This is usually a to scale silhouette appropriately painted. It is then fired at under varying probable hunting weather conditions; low light / bright light, wind / calm, cold / hot. I shoot standing, kneeling,prone, improvised supported, and cross sticks. I use full power loads and if I am using a range finder as part of my set of components, it's the one I hunt with.

To me this condition or ability does not remain stable, but varies depending upon things like health conditions and frequency of practice. For me, when using my scoped .33 Krag, without range finder assistance, I want to have a high probability of hitting a deer or antelope's vitals under any of the conditions mentioned above at 200 yards. However I know from practice that if the wind is "blowing hard" it's "cold" and "I've been sick," and "I only had a standing shot," then the probability is probably too low. On the other hand if "I'm feeling good" and "it's a bright, cool, calm morning" and the target is "standing broadside" at a "ranged, 350 yards" and I'm shooting from a "solid supported position" then the probability is very high that that antelope will drop in it's tracks.

Sometimes there's just no simple answer. If there is a simple answer here, maybe it's practice, practice, practice and then listen to what your practice tells you.

Finally I refer you to Teddy Roosevelt, (my inspiration) and his thoughts on the subject in "Hunting Trips of a Ranchman."

[Bass Ackward]

<<It has been my experance that most "bragging" sized three shot groups are accidents, the real test of a rifle, load and shooter is at least 10 shots ,twenty is better.>>


Well here is where we are going to disagree alittle.

That 10 and 20 rounds stuff is good for paper. Or competitions where you might want to know how long to go before you clean. But firing 20 shots with say 5 minutes inbetween is different than someone who fires 20 back to back in 90 degree weather. And then what do you classify a load as producing if 19 go into 1/2" and one opens it up to say 2"? I have set down and fired this style and produced MOA or better one day only to come back at some point later when the temperature dropped 20 degrees to find that no longer the case without adjusting the load to compensate.

More important "to me" is first shot predictability. And the test "for me" is if a gun will do 4, 5 shot groups on different days at different temperatures that represent temperatures at that time of the year, that is my idea of a hunting load. And the load / group size quoted will meet that criteria. I can't imagine getting (or needing) even 5 shots to get the job done. I even go so far as to clean inbetween shots so I know what to expect in case wet weather forces me to clean during the season. That is another test performed. So if a rifle does it with just three shots, that is good enough for hunting as long as it is repeatable.

What a lot of people fail to consider with "accuracy" load development is working up or at least testing the load at the maximum range you expect to take a shot. Often people are surprised to find that 1/2" at 50 yards might not hold on an 8 X 11 sheet of paper at 100. And that isn't close to 200. So to say MOA means 200 yards on my quotes. My load testing goes on out to 300 yards just to cover my errors estimating 200 yard distances.

[grumble]

Everybody here probably already knows this, but:

The rest you shoot from has a big impact on accuracy. I sight in most rifles off a beanbag rest, and can pretty well zero them in. This usually works ok for field use, too. But, one of my favorite rifles, a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag, shoots a good 6" high when I shoot from a standing positon after being sighted in off the bags.

Like I say, everybody probably already knows this, but it's a good idea to have shot a hunting rifle from different positions and rests before taking a quick shot on that prize set of antlers you've been tracking for three days.

[The Nyack Kid]

I like to shoot , and knowing what your load and rifle is capable of , under the best of conditions goes a long way twards building confadence in ones shooting skills . when the rifle is sighted in and the rifle behavor is understud and i am shooting at a steel gong , if i miss i cant blame anything but myself for missing .

[versifier]

Here goes...
My hunting rifles all wear peep sights, except two, but they're special cases, one I discuss below. I work up a load on the bench to find what the rifle/load is capable of. Then I start to practice. I shoot offhand, because that is the most unstable position, the "worst case" scenario. Between the limit of my not-as-young-as-they-used-to-be eyes and the reality that most shots around here are less than 100 yds, that is the range I use for high power practice. (In summer and early fall, I use a 10/22 with the same sights to keep on top of red and flying squirrels and get me used to shots on moving targets.) My usual deer rifle, a .308, is an old Rem788 (one up the pipe and a 3shot clip), and I practice until I can keep those four shots in under six inches - this is not difficult for me to do as from the bench it's close to MOA (Lee 150's & soupcans too, .5MOA with Sierra 150 & 165 SBT's) and I like to shoot it regularly anyway. By the time deer season rolls around I can keep them easily under four inches (figuring six inches at 150 if I have to stretch it). I use the most stable position I can find as per the conditions in the field, and would attempt a 200yd shot if I could rest the rifle, so I know that 90% of the time I'm well under my limit, and the remaining 10% it's the "worst case" that I have practiced and prepared for. It is to me basic ethics that I will not attempt a shot unless I am positive I can make a clean kill, be it a squirrel, raccoon, woodchuck, coyote, deer, or neighbor with loud stereo (only kidding). I'm not trying to preach, but this is an issue that I have to get through the heads of several classes of Hunter Ed students each year who grew up believing in the "spray and pray" method.
I do use 5 (prelims) and 10 (final polishing) shot groups for accuracy testing, letting the barrel cool as necessary. But not for field practice. My rifle has a skinny barrel and will start to heat up after four or five shots, and then the shots begin to string. I need to know that I can empty the clip and hit what I'm aiming at. I seldom have need for a second shot, and never have time for a third, the woods are just too thick.
My varmint rifle is another case entirely. It's another Rem 788, in .22-250 with a Tasco 6-20X50 and I don't cast for it. (Yet. It is on the "to do" list, though). It shoots Sierras from 52-55gr into .33MOA (10shots, to 200yd). Practice is usually at soda cans (one-fourth the size of a woodchuck) out to 400yds and beyond, mostly from a rest or from a sitting position. When I lived on my dad's farm, the garden was about 150yds and I'd take care of the woodchucks and raccoons from my bedroom window using my pillow on the window sill to rest it on.
My hunting handgun is a TC Contender, .30-30, .357mag, .30 carb., and a .22LR match, all 10" bbls, with the factory iron sights. I practice shooting offhand with the bigger two until I can keep 5shots in less than six inches at 50yds (not difficult), three inches with the smaller two, and I do not attempt shots beyond that range on anything but paper. Ever. I know my limits and that's all there is to it. I did use a 4X scope on a .223 barrel for a few seasons and got a few woodchucks out to 175-200yds, but now use all barrels with the same sights to keep things consistant and use rifles for longer ranges.

[DOUBLEJK]

My criteria fer huntin' accuracy is the same as my plinkin' ammo criteria...
I have a bunch a 6-8" swingin' steel disc's down at my pond range n ifin' the load'll hit em from a standin' position purty near every time I call the shot good....I'll consider usin' it on game...providin' it has the neccessary umph...distance is a deminishing length the older I get...but thats O.K. too....I just get closer....might need ta lower the pond soon...so's I can get closer ta them swingers without gettin' wet...:lol:

[scrapcan]

I agree whole heartedly with do the best you can and if it is not reliable and quickly and cleanly leathal you should not take the shot.

But here is the other part of the equation that has not been mentioned that may be as important as any other in hunting or Minute of Deer shooting, I use that term with endeerment.

The topic is knowing how to range or estimate target distance. may not be a problem in areas where your shot is likely to be close, I.E eastern woods. Out here in the western US, Alaska, or Canada you may find your critter in the open and you better know where it is at or all the accuracy in the world does not matter.

Here is a case that I got to help fix. A friend who is a very good and very accurate off hand shooter took aim and then shot the front leg off of an elk. What happened? He did not know his distance. We wondered about for the next 5 hours trying to get the sneak on the animal to put a well placed shot. Time finally came and the original shooter took the good shot and did the thing he should have done the first time. That is undue suffering of an animal and shows poor hunting ability, atleast in my mind.

There are alot of ways to range game especially if you have a scope. You have a range finder built on your rifle or handgun if you choose and learn how to use it.

Anyway just wanted to harp on that point a little.

[David R]

I can hit a beer can at 100 yards most of the time.

Never saw a deer drinking a beer.

David

[waksupi]

I do a lot of benchrest shooting. But I also do more, when out walking in the mountains, and at club shoots, and competitions. All of this is off hand work. If a person practices like this in the months leading up to hunting season, they are pretty sharp on thier effective range, and the accuracy of thier rifles and ammo.

[MGySgt]

I used an repro 1866 Sharps in 45/90 this year in CO for my Elk hunt - I also put over 1000 rounds through it in about 7 months. Most were from a bench rest but the last 100-200 where using my shooting sticks from different ranges at a chunk of cardboard laying on the berm of the back stop. That helped a lot when the time came to drop the hammer.

During that time it produced groups from 3/4's to 1.5 in. Consistantly about 1.25.

It may not be a Tack Driver but it sure put the meat on the table when the time came at 165 yds, about 35 yards short of my self imposed MAX. Not the guns max - mine. Creedmore rear and globe front.

Just my .02 worth.

Drew

[NVcurmudgeon]

Old Indian truism, "Any gun good if shootum good." In preparation for my recent Alberta hunt I practiced all summer. Maybe 1000 full power hunting loads from the two rifles I took, all from offhand and kneeling. Though I only achieved a higher level of mediocrity, I had the confidence to take one of the two opportunities offered, and the training to decline the other one. Hunting ethics demand our best preparation.

[charlie / sw mo]

I can hit a beer can at 100 yards most of the time.

Never saw a deer drinking a beer.

David
i raised hogs for a while --put a mug of beer in front of a hog and it dont take him long to learn to tip his head back and drink it.
charlie in sw mo

[9.3X62AL]

From W.C. Fields' "Temperence Lecture"--

"Why, if you place a bucket of beer in front of a pig, he'll turn his head and walk away. And so should you.

Or--would you rather be a duck?"

Couldn't resist.

[Blackwater]

Bass, it sounds like you and I look at the hunting loads the same way. Not being very experienced with cast in rifles, I do have a question though, and it's one that DOES concern me when I shoot game with a cast bullet. The question is, if I clean the barrel, the first lubed lead bullet may wind up outside the group. Maybe the first two. How can I avoid the first shot flyer from a cold barrel? In my BPCR, running a patch through the bore that has my regular lube on it really helps, and usually gets the first shot in the group, or very close at worst. Will this work with conventional smokeless loads as well?

Well, now I've got a 2nd question: Does it matter much as to POI if I work up loads in high Georgia temps, and then shoot deer in the cold? These ARE pretty crucial factors.

BTW, I guess I'm kinda' lucky when it comes to shot placement. We usually hunt from tree stands or blinds, and if the shooter knows how to move and not spook the deer in the process (bowhunting helps learn this), we usually can wait for a broadside or other good angle for the shot, and have support as well, so I usually get my shot within 1" of where it's aimed .... MOST of the time. With that setup, there's little reason NOT to do that, though. All that's required is a good load well sighted in, knowledge of its trajectory where that's important, and that aforesaid knowledge of how and when to move so as to remain hidden from the quary. With knowledge of the quary's anatomy, I like to hit the rear top of the heart, and that's not difficult under the circumstances I usually get, so accuracy to me, and for the purpose of hunting, is very close to my heart. It always amazes me how little it takes to kill a full grown whitetail if you just hit them right. Even the lowly .22 LR is a LOT more lethal than it'll ever get credit for. Just ask the night hunters! I used to be a probation officer, and I did just that, plus know some "good ol' boys" who use what they have at hand whenever they get a chance, and those who shoot well and know deer anatomy eat venison regularly. A fair sampling by friends shows the .22 mag. to be VERY effective if used judiciously. A deer better not stop and look back, or it's in a heap'a trouble. Just thought I'd throw this info in, since it's always fascinated me. Me? I use mostly .27 to .35 calibers on the '06 case or the .308 case. Due to experience and friendship, though, I've seen a fair number of deer in my time taken by a single .22 bullet. One fellow, though, likes to head shoot them. That works like lightning, of course, but even body shots amaze me IF placed right. Bullet selection can make a difference sometimes, but even a RNL .22 RF can be extremely deadly when it hits "the spot." Amazing, ain't it?

[versifier]

Yes, there can be differences in POI and velocity between working up your load on a summer day and shooting it when the snow's blowing up the back of your untucked shirt. How much difference? Depends on the load. Sometimes big differences. Probably there's a lot more difference up in the noth woods than way down in citrus country, but still you have to check the zero on your rifle anyway. If the trip didn't bump things around and loosen action/scope base screws or changes in humidity while in storage didn't make the wood stock move in the wrong direction (my own brilliant move this year, but I checked before it became a disaster), differences in temperature, altitude, and/or humidity can all change the way your ammo behaves. In a perfect world, we always have plenty of practice time in all kinds of conditions, but the world is what it is, and being realistic, a smart man shoots a group or two to make sure. ;-) The longer the distance, as you well know, the greater the effect any of those changes has on your POI. We all hear the sob stories every year about those guys who neglect to face the realities, mostly blaming the rifle or the scope or the angle of the sun (I love that one) or anything except the idiot himself who didn't take the extra two minutes to double check. :violin: To me, it's like not looking down before you zip up... :)

[Bass Ackward]

How can I avoid the first shot flyer from a cold barrel? In my BPCR, running a patch through the bore that has my regular lube on it really helps, and usually gets the first shot in the group, or very close at worst. Will this work with conventional smokeless loads as well?

Does it matter much as to POI if I work up loads in high Georgia temps, and then shoot deer in the cold? These ARE pretty crucial factors.



Blackwater,

First shot fliers can be minimized sort of like you are doing with the BP. I clean with Flitz Rifle Wax. It is made with Bees wax and Carnuba. Ever hear of those? Plus, my style is to work up loads with the bullet lightly engraving the rifling. Because this aids ignition, it seems to minimize fliers that occur mostly because of different bore friction. My Whelen throws the first bullet high left. This is less than 1/2" with the Flitz. About 1 1/4" with some petroleum product. Maybe 2" dry.

Versifier pretty much nailed it for ya on the next question. But since you have an interest in higher velocity loads I will continue.

If you shoot cast bullets at what are considered cast bullet velocities you have a fairly wide margin for error. If you choose powders that are temperature stabilized, you might not notice much change. But if you are shooting one diameter cast at higher pressures and velocities, the window of operation is much narrower and change occurs more quickly. I notice it more in larger bores and straight cases. But it is still there with all. The culprit is how the bullet deals with fouling in the bore. And lube that is left in the bore becomes a hydraulic fouling that sizes down bullets at higher velocities making less rifling contact and eventually stripping. Some people see this as RPM failure, but it is fouling none the less.

An example is a load for my 458 American. 80 degrees and up 3/8s". 70 degrees after adjusting powder charge for best group, 1". 50 degrees and no matter how much you adjust the charge, 1 1/4". Every load for these guns exibits the same pattern, worse with higher velocity loads, less with more modest ones. I have been running cold weather lube tests for three years now and find some better than others, but not enough to eliminate the problem.

The answer for cold weather is a bullet design with a scraper on the front. Sort of like a semi wadcutter for rifles. (notice I didn't mention bore rides!)Then the reverse happens with groups. It works great in cold weather and opens up in hot weather because the extra lube left in the bore from the preceeding shot is scraped out ahead of the next bullet. You have to adjust by designing a bullet to carry more lube for summer. Or using a heavier duty lube.

There is no free lunch at the loftier levels, but you can work around it if you understand what is happening.

[Doughty]

Bass Ackward,

In your lube tests did you ever try Gray's #24?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward,

In your lube tests did you ever try Gray's #24?


NO. Tom wouldn't tell me what was in it, but I think a lot of the problem is the bees wax. And of coarse lanolin if it is in there. Tom swore it was great in his 45-70 in cold weather. Oh well.