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weeple2000
04-06-2019, 03:47 PM
I worked up my first cast rifle loads. These were all shot at 50 yards. The mold was Lee C309-200-R. I tried to do this in half grain increments. The drops weren't all perfect but if I had to guess they were probably +/- 0.1 grain either way from what's listed. I shot four rounds for each group. That was what my magazine holds. I didn't have a ton of time to reload more rounds. I also wasn't sure how much time I would have to shoot them. It looks like I should have continued the charges above 21 grains to see what the accuracy nodes would have been above that. Lyman lists a max of 26.5 grains 2400 for a 208 grain bullet.

I shot a couple magazines of jackets at the end for control. I was wondering if the group size was my fault or not. The first group of jackets had four rounds. They were pretty much one solid hole. The other group of jackets was a bit larger but only had 3 bullets. The jackets weight matched to 0.1 grain. I did not sort my cast rounds by weight. The jackets weren't loaded with the same powder.

Any feedback is appreciated. It looks like 21 grains of 2400 might be the ticket. I am going to load 20 rounds of that for next time. I am also going to ladder up a few more grains to see if there is a higher accuracy node.

Are groups of 4 at 50 yards sufficient for this test?

CCI LRP
Lee Dies
Full Length Sized
Trimmed
Lee C309-200-R
Approx 206 grains with gas check
Range lead alloy
Alliant 2400 powder
FCD
Tumble Lubed with Ben's Liquid Lube twice before and twice after sizing to .311

Powder Charge.......Group Size (inches)
18.0.........................0.965
18.4.........................1.107
18.8.........................0.610
19.4.........................1.377
19.9.........................1.569
20.4.........................1.601
20.9.........................0.759
180 gr jackets...........0.288
150 gr jackets...........0.762

239344

stubshaft
04-06-2019, 04:12 PM
Looking good there. What caliber?

weeple2000
04-06-2019, 04:19 PM
The boolits are 30 caliber but they were shot out of a 30-06 Ruger American Rifle. If you look at the pics of the groups, and then at the list of group sizes... Is that enough to determine where the accuracy nodes are? Is 50 yards a good test for this, or would I have gotten a different picture at 100 yards if I shot the same boolits at that distance?

RED BEAR
04-06-2019, 04:50 PM
Oh well your hooked now no turning back.

turtlezx
04-06-2019, 04:51 PM
10 shot groups at 100yds will tell you alot more

weeple2000
04-06-2019, 04:56 PM
10 shot groups at 100yds will tell you alot more

Should I load up 10 shots of all of these charges for 100 yards? Or just the ones that look more promising at 50 yards?

Winger Ed.
04-06-2019, 04:56 PM
Doing good.
There's no cure for this, but you might expect an intervention sometime.

Something ya might like is get a Lyman cast handbook. Lots of good info. in there.
It'll show ya loads for the .30-06 that get you to about what a full house .30-30 does.

Back when I was still hunting I brought home a few deer with them that were taken at a fraction over 120 yards.

weeple2000
04-06-2019, 04:59 PM
I have copies of Lyman cast 3 & 4.

weeple2000
04-06-2019, 05:12 PM
Doing good.
There's no cure for this, but you might expect an intervention sometime.
...

I think about this quite often. When Alice went down the rabbit hole, it wasn't just the rabbit hole to explore. There was a whole world down there.

dverna
04-06-2019, 05:24 PM
Cast bullets must be perfect...So ruthless visual inspection is necessary.

You only want to shoot those that weigh at the maximum weight. Anything .3 gr below your max. are not worth testing. A light bullet either has a void or did not fill fully. And if it is a void, you have no way to determine were it is. On centerline...not too bad....closer to the edge...flier.

Just my thoughts.

Three shot groups will weed out poor loads but not establish if you have an accurate one.

bmortell
04-06-2019, 05:29 PM
I think 50yds first is fine, things like your aim and wind ect. wont skew data as much at 50. Best off increasing groups to 5+ with well sorted bullets as said. Loads that do well you can always confirm at other ranges later, if it does poor at 50 its kinda a waste of powder at 100

popper
04-06-2019, 05:38 PM
Try the accurate @ 100. You might want to try dacron as 18 gr is a low fill in 06.

weeple2000
04-06-2019, 11:05 PM
Try the accurate @ 100. You might want to try dacron as 18 gr is a low fill in 06.

I think I will do 20 rounds of 21 grains at 100 yards, and do some more half grain increments at 50.

303Guy
04-07-2019, 02:08 AM
Should I load up 10 shots of all of these charges for 100 yards? Or just the ones that look more promising at 50 yards?

I would say so, yes. Probably more since there may be hidden defects that could throw your shots - or just aiming errors.

weeple2000
04-07-2019, 02:42 AM
I might take another whack at this. For now I think I am going to try 21 at 100. I want to hunt whitetail with this load, so I think a little higher charge would be good anyway. We will see if the results are worse shooting 20 rounds at 100. I am still going to load more charges to see if there is another accuracy node higher up. I might do 8 shots each. At least that would be two magazines. Or maybe 12.

I have a toddler at home. I generally try to do my shooting during nap time. So to some degree I have a time limitation there. But it keeps the family stock pretty high. Good news is that 21 grains of 2400 is very manageable once baby is old enough to shoot. Granted that will be several years from now. But time flies and I still look forward to it.

RedlegEd
04-07-2019, 09:25 AM
Hi. Based on your data, you are only assuming 21.0 is the node you’re after. Your load of 18.8 gr gave you the best group, followed by 20.9 gr. If you’re going to take the time to load 20 more, I’d first check & weigh your bullets as stated above. Then do five groups of four at 50 yds. Start at 21.0, then go up in 1 gr increments to see if another node shows up. I’d also consider using a loose tuft of Dacron (about .5 gr) lightly pushed in over the powder (do not tamp it down into a wad.) Given your situation with a young family at home, I’d think you’d want to work up a good load as efficiently and quickly as possible. Good luck to you.

lar45
04-07-2019, 10:09 AM
I have a toddler at home. Good news is that 21 grains of 2400 is very manageable once baby is old enough to shoot. Granted that will be several years from now. But time flies and I still look forward to it.

I had my youngest son out shooting the 06 when he was 6yo. It was from the bench, and the load was the Lee 113 with 10gns of WC820, if I recoll correctly the velocity was around 1050. It was just like shooting a big 22, he had a great time working the bolt, dropping a new round in, closing it and blasting clay pidgeons on the 25yd berm.

weeple2000
04-07-2019, 10:22 AM
I had my youngest son out shooting the 06 when he was 6yo. It was from the bench, and the load was the Lee 113 with 10gns of WC820, if I recoll correctly the velocity was around 1050. It was just like shooting a big 22, he had a great time working the bolt, dropping a new round in, closing it and blasting clay pidgeons on the 25yd berm.

Well, my wife will have to be ready for it too, not just my daughter. But thanks I'll keep that in mind. I'm looking forward to reduced loads for her. Might be an excuse to pick up another mold from the sounds of it.

weeple2000
04-07-2019, 10:23 AM
Hi. Based on your data, you are only assuming 21.0 is the node you’re after. Your load of 18.8 gr gave you the best group, followed by 20.9 gr. If you’re going to take the time to load 20 more, I’d first check & weigh your bullets as stated above. Then do five groups of four at 50 yds. Start at 21.0, then go up in 1 gr increments to see if another node shows up. I’d also consider using a loose tuft of Dacron (about .5 gr) lightly pushed in over the powder (do not tamp it down into a wad.) Given your situation with a young family at home, I’d think you’d want to work up a good load as efficiently and quickly as possible. Good luck to you.

Is it worth doing 1 grain increments instead of 0.5?

lar45
04-07-2019, 11:01 AM
I don't know if you have a chronograph or not, but here are some QuickLoad estimates of your velocities:
Lee C309-200-R
2400 18.8 gn 1640fps
2400 20.9gn 1750fps
FWIW

weeple2000
04-07-2019, 12:02 PM
I do have a chrono. I was going to check the velocity once I have an accurate load.

Bigslug
04-07-2019, 12:37 PM
Weeple, you've taken your first hit from the crack pipe. . .and there's no putting it down now.:mrgreen:

Best advice I can give you - GET A CHRONOGRAPH that will allow reading of strings of multiple shots, and computes for high, low, extreme spread, average, and standard deviation. It's probably the best tool you can get to reduce the amount of time spent and powder burned in the quest for finding "accuracy nodes"

EDIT: OK - you already have a chronograph. Use it to hone the loading process, not just after it's done.

The process my Dad arrived at years ago was to first ensure you have decent brass with a consistent internal volume (sort by weight). You then figure out what your low to high range of powder charge is. We load ONE case with the minimum charge, write that charge on the case with a Sharpie marker and put it in the ammo box. We then load ONE case with our next increment up, mark and store it next in line, and so on until you get to the max charge in your experiment. With a tiny case like a .223, we'll work up in 0.1 to 0.2 increments; in the .308 family, 0.2 increments; in the .30-06 family, 0.2 to 0.3; and maaaaaybe half-grain increments for the really big guys.

When you fire these in ascending order over your chronograph, you'll immediately start to see "flat spots" of 2-4 rounds where your velocity doesn't really vary significantly, and then it will hop up to the next plateau. Your accuracy nodes are the middles of those flat spots, and your next trip to the range will be to fire a ten to twenty shot group with each node to see which gives you the tightest numbers and groups . It's a handy method because it REALLY cuts down the amount of time you have to spend on the quest; limits the amount of charges that might prove to be excessive to a small, easily disassembled handful; and since the ultimate load is centered on one of the flat spots, you've automatically found a place where little variations of brass thickness or a tenth of a grain of powder won't affect the result on target as significantly as if your load was near the edge of one.

Chronos aren't that expensive, and when you consider what they save you in powder, bullets, time, and gas, they're an absolute bargain that lets you quickly get the science behind you so you can move on to the IMPORTANT stuff like blowing up milk jugs and killing deer.

Shoot your groups at 100 yards if you can. The variability of the ammo and shooter will be there regardless - all distance does is magnify what effect it has and makes it easier to see.

weeple2000
04-07-2019, 02:38 PM
Thanks for the advice slug. One reason I shot at 50 was because I wasn't sure if I would have to adjust my scope depending on where it hit on the target. It turned out to be less of an issue however.

weeple2000
04-25-2019, 11:03 PM
I went out again tonight. I didn't have much time. It was raining too. I was out until sunset. I only shot 12 shots. I had loaded up 2 groups of boolits. They were sorted into two groups by weight. There was a group of 12 that was between 206.3-206.6 grains. There was a group of 8 that had about the same margin of error averaging 206 grains. I shot the group of 12. I intended to shoot them all into the same target. But the wind folded the target in half on me after I shot the first mag. I did hang two targets in case I had time to shoot both groups.

So I shot the next two mags of the 206.3-206.6 loads into the second target after I shot the first mag. There were four in each mag. I was using a rest I just bought. It wasn't a lead sled. It was just a plastic rest with spots for the front and rear of the rifle. I didn't have enough time to really figure out how best to use the rest. I also didn't feel like the circumstances were ideal. I was pretty rushed. It was raining. I wasn't paying attention to my shot process. Normally I pay a lot of attention to when I'm breathing.

That being said. The load I shot was 20.9 grains of 2400. The groups, shot at 100 yards, were:

2.684" for the 8 shot group When I shot this I was pretty sure that one shot was a flier. Looking at the target, I couldn't tell where it was.
3.5705" for the 4 shot group. There was a flier in this group. I don't recall thinking that I caused it, although that may have been the case. Without the flier it would have been 1.29".

In comparison to my groups at 50 yards, these had closer MOA to the less accurate loads at the shorter distance. Can that be attributed to a decrease in accuracy of lead at greater distance? Or can I attribute that to the conditions when I fired them?

I suppose the good news is that I'll go out and shoot more to find out.