Bought an old inline

[seetrout]

So I'm snooping around the LGS a week or so ago and I find a Knight LK93 inline with a scope that looks unfired for $150 and took it home. Yes I now know I paid too much for it. Anyway i found a friend that gave me an old breech plug wrench. Not the correct slot tip wrench, but a 7/16 hex that I groung on the bench grinder to make a slot tip and removed the #11 breech plug and installed a 209 full plastic jacket kit. I got some .50/.452 sabots and some .50/400 sabots and a bunch of FPJ primer inserts as well. Got a can of 777, wavered between the 2f and 3f and decided on the 3f due to the short 22" barrel and hoping I can get the lighter .40 cal bullets to shoot well. I looked up the owners manual online and found that Knight rates the LK93 for up to 150 grains of BP or equivalent and they say usually 90 to 120 grains is optimal (250 to 300 grain 45 cal bullets in a sabot). I cleaned any oils out of the bore and installed the new breech plug (with grease) per the instructions and finally got to the range today. I figured I would start with the .50/40 sabots and some of 180gr .40's I cast for my .38-40 (RCBS CB mould). Since I am starting with a lighter bullet I should go with a higher starting load I will try 120 grains by volume in the black powder measure. Right? When I load for cartridges, lighter bullets with the same powder (almost) always start higher and max higher. First shot recoiled like a hot 30-06. The guy on the bench next to me (shooting an M44 Mosin) says "****...that's loud". First shot...15" left at 50 yds. spun the adjustment 3/4 turn right and dropped another 120gr in the barrel and seated another 180 .40 sabot. Cocked the bolt to remove the spent primer and reprime and found the FPJ with the primer had been blown off the nipple and was laying sideways between the nipple and the hammer/bolt/striker whatever you want to call it. Looking closer the primer itself is an 1/8th of an inch out of the jacket and the inner piece of the two piece 209 primer is .065" out of the outer piece. What to do?...Call me a dim bulb, but it didn't blow up on the first shot so I reprimed and dropped the hammer again. Impact is a foot to the left of the first shot (see my scope adjustment above). Okay maybe the scope turret is labeled backwards, spun it 1 1/2 turns right. Now, lets drop the charge to 90gr....Thats a 25% reduction to the starting recommended charge for a much heavier bullet. recoil is much more manageable and impact is about 2 1/2" left...now we are getting somewhere. next shot with 90 gr is 9" left and 15" low. 1 more shot without moving the scope adjustment and I could have done better with a load of 00Buck out of well...pretty much any old shotgun. Upon closer inspection even the 90 grain loads showed signs of waaaay high pressure to my eyes. I am thinking of backing off to 60 grains and trying again. I am thanking GOD i didn't start with the 310 grain cast .45's or the 300 grain .45 XTP's.

Does this whole BP/substitute thing work differently than smokeless in regards to bullet weight vs powder charge vs priming system? would the powder charges behaved differently if I had been using the #11 caps? does going to a 209 require a reduction in powder charges?

Two primers in front were with 120 grains of 777. 3 in the back are with 90 grains. 180gr .40 cal cast bullet naked and in a sabot. 238587

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

thats an awful lot of powder. I'd back it down to around 80-90gr.

[seetrout]

Took it out again today.

60gr powder changes and my 5 shot 50 yd group shrunk up to about 6" or so. No chrono, but not going very fast as I could hear the impact after the shot. Sandbags off the bench. 2x7 scope set on 7. Sigh....think I bought a lemon. Boolits in sabots are hard to seat sometimes. It almost seems like sometimes they are not square to the bore. Is there a learning curve to seating them? I would have though in sabots they are pretty much idiot proof.

Maybe I just added a new level of idiot?

Could it be the barrel? There is a 'loose' spot of about an inch maybe 5" from the muzzle.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Swab the bore between shots. Harvester Muzzleloading sells an assortment of sabots to help ease loading. Not all companies provide a one size fits all sabot with the bullet. Looking at your cast bullets, thats probably where your poor accuracy is coming from. Look into a box of .451-.452 Hornady XTP pistol bullets or the smaller .400 ( .40cal ) bullets and see how the sabots you have on hand, load. But you will want to try swabbing between shots with a damp patch, then a few dry.

[NyFirefighter357]

I shoot 150grs in my Knight.

1.) Knight® Rifles are designed to perform best with Black Powder FFg, and industry approved black powder substitutes.

2.) Smaller Bullet weights will provide flatter trajectory, but may not be as accurate as the heavier, longer bullets.

3.) Heavier bullets will give better penetration and more energy transfer and are more suited to heavier powder charges.

Knight® Rifles are designed to perform best between 90 and 150 grains of Black Powder, and industry approved black powder substitutes. See maximum recommended load for specific models.

1.) Determine which game you intend to hunt and what bullet weight you intend to use.

2.) Sight in your rifle. Start with 100 grains of Black Powder and industry approved black powder substitutes, loose powder or pellets. If you don’t achieve the desired results, go up or down in 10 grain increments and try sighting again.

Recommended Muzzleloader Loads: https://www.muzzleloaders.com/articles/recommended-muzzleloader-loads/

[Moleman-]

I have the same gun in SS with the original #11 nipple still on it. Found it at a gun store that was closing down for $150. Figured it would be a great gun for my son. Initially shot some .430" 240gr XTP with a darker green hornady sabot that shoot great out of my CVA hawkens that I've been using those sabots for close to 30 years. Got around 5" at 100yds when I get 1.5-2" with open sites with the hawkens? Tried some oversized cast 240gr and 310gr which shot better, then tried some of the .45" 250gr XTP with a black harvester sabot that I use in my Savage ML2. The 44/green sabot was too easy to load vs the 45/black sabot. Shot much better at around 1.5" but I didn't swab between shots so some of that very well may be the cause as I'm going for minute of deer and in the field I'm not going to swab between shots. Once the fouling gets bad enough I'll run a brush down and knock it out and keep on shooting. The black harvester/240gr/250gr .45 xtp are often sub moa out of my savage. I generally hunt with 90-100gr of the FF 777 and have done so since it came out. Happy with the performance and have shot several angling deer where the bullet entered a hind quarter and exited the opposite shoulder. Even with the ez-load muzzle I'll use a ball starter with a tip to match the bullet nose and do the same on the ram rod. If it were me, I'd ditch the 209 breech plug and use the #11 with RWS #11 caps with some of the 2f 777 and try the black harvester high pressure sabots or even their ribbed versions and switch to .45xtp-mag 240gr/250gr version.

[megasupermagnum]

6" at 50 yards and the bullets made round holes? I'd be looking for obvious gun problems. If you can, try it with open sights, maybe the scope is bad. check that the gun is mounted well in the stock. As for pressure, it should be a non-issue. The FPJ plunger guns are dangerous with Blackhorn 209 due to a long pressure curve, maybe FFFg triple 7 is the same case. Try the #11 caps, they at least capture the cap well

[725]

I used to shoot the Knight and I never used that much powder. A very good rifle with clever design features. You mentioned loose spots within the barrel. If you think the barrel is compromised by some prior problems, you could always have it re-bored with the twist rate of your choice.

[seetrout]

Wow. Lots of replies this time. Will try to answer all the questions, although they may not be in the order they were asked.

Believe it or not...ALL the bullet holes were perfectly round.

Tasco 2x7 scope absolutely could be garbage. Open sights, unfortunately, did not come with the rifle. Mounting in the stock? 1 screw. Not much I can do there.

I am using the harvester brand blue sabots for .40 cal and have a bunch of the Knight brand black sabots for .452 bullets. I shot 5 of each today. At 60gr of FFF 777. The 180gr cast .40's shot better than the 300gr cast .452's. About 6" for the .40's and 7" for the .45's. Maybe some of the problem is the dia of the cast boolits, I shoot my .40's as cast in both my .38-40 and my .40S&W. I measured them @ .402. I ran a few through the LEE sizing die and they came out at .400. They also seemed easier to seat (squarely and to full depth) in the sabot's.

I will also try some .40 180gr XTP's I have laying around along with some .452 300gr XTP's on the next outing.

The first time I shot it (a couple days ago) I tried reloading without swabbing. Today I tried spit patching between loads and ended up wet patching with TC13 patches and then dry patch between loads. Some loaded not too hard like the clean barrel and some loaded HARD. That's why I started thinking of cockeyed bullets in the bore. Also the first round I fired today, at only 60gr of powder blew the FPJ and primer off the nipple again, just like the first time (at 120gr) and then all was well. Am I supposed to fire a primer with no load through it before I load it the first time?

[megasupermagnum]

I would still second guess that scope, but here's an idea on the primers. Maybe somebody had drilled out the flash hole? Try the #11 cap version.

[izzyjoe]

I would try some power belt bullets, or at least some 45 jacket pistol bullets, or maybe a Lee REAL bullet. I suspect the sabot is staying along for the ride to long,the reason you are getting patterns! It's been a few years ago but I tested several cast bullets with sabots and never achieved any success . 80-90 of powder will work good for you.

[charlie b]

I am another that has never had good luck with sabots.

Power belts were good (the platinum ones load easier). Even Hornady Great Plains bullets worked once I sized them to bore and seated a card wad under them.

Best for me has been paper patched bullets.

[Dvdmacdaddy]

My muzzy loves a black harvester sabot with a .452 250gr XTP pushed by 100gr Schuetzen 2fg. All 3 holes were touching at 100yds. Has dropped many hogs and deer where they stood. If I’m hunting where sabots aren’t allowed I cast some 1:20 250gr LEE REAL bullets, pan lubed with SPG and pushed by the same powder and charge as above resulting in a 1.5in group at 100yds. If it’s a clean bore I’ll fire a primer to foul it .

I’ve shot about 20 different projectiles with 7 different powders (holy black, substitutes, pellets) over 10yrs to get the results I wanted. The worst powder ever was the American Pioneer Powder, after one shot it fouled the barrel so bad you couldn’t get a bullet down the barrel to fire a follow up shot.

[seetrout]

I would still second guess that scope, but here's an idea on the primers. Maybe somebody had drilled out the flash hole? Try the #11 cap version.

I finally got back out with the muzzleloader today. The 209 breech plug is brand new purchase in the package that I opened and installed, I would surely hope it has not been drilled out. I removed the Tasco World Class scope and mounted a proven fixed 4 power Bushnell I have from a .30-30. Did all my shooting at 50 yds today and all powder charges were 90gr. I fouled the bore with a primer before starting and no issues with blowing the plastic jackets off the nipple. My sized cast 180gr .400 bullets in the Harvester blue sabot got me 5 shots @ 1 3/4". 180gr .40 cal Hornady XTP's gave me 1 1/2". 300gr .452 Hornady XTP's shot about 2 1/2". Not tack drivers any of them, but much more acceptable than 3 shots in 6"+. I believe the 45 cal's are too tight a fit for my bore, after a wet patch and then a dry it was all I could do to seat one on the powder charge and the couple of sabots I picked up off the grass showed a galling of the plastic where it ran the lands. Maybe If I could size my cast .45's to .450?

[Forester79]

I've found 777 and 209 primers don't play well together. Form a hard ring of fouling about where the bullet seats. If your set on 777 there is a 209 primer made specifically for that powder. Does help with seating the next bullet.

[nekshot]

This is just my eccentric ways of behaving but all my muzzies when bought got a handfull of bore size slugs. If they did not shoot the way I thought was workable for me than I tried sabots. In 50 cal I like the green sabots and the 44 cal boolits but the 45 cal slugs with correct sabots usually are a wee bit more accurate. Is you shoulder hurting yet??

[seetrout]

This is just my eccentric ways of behaving but all my muzzies when bought got a handfull of bore size slugs. If they did not shoot the way I thought was workable for me than I tried sabots. In 50 cal I like the green sabots and the 44 cal boolits but the 45 cal slugs with correct sabots usually are a wee bit more accurate.

I don't own anything .44 cal. I have .40, .452 or .458, sooo..... The Harvester brand sabots shoot well with the .40 slugs, I suppose I should try a package of Harvester brand sabots meant for .45's.

[/QUOTE]Is you shoulder hurting yet?? [/QUOTE] Call me a wuss all you want. I have and use a PAST recoil pad. Especially for bench work in T-shirt weather. I'm getting too old to be playing that He-Man shiite.

[seetrout]

I've found 777 and 209 primers don't play well together. Form a hard ring of fouling about where the bullet seats. If your set on 777 there is a 209 primer made specifically for that powder. Does help with seating the next bullet.

I have felt that ring when wet patching between shots, but it comes out easy enough. And I'm only set on T7 until I burn through the 2 lbs I bought.