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wmitty
03-21-2019, 11:37 PM
When Jesus sees that Nicodemus is thinking in the physical sense regarding a man having to be born from above (or born again) in order to see the kingdom of God, He tells him that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit (in order to enter God's kingdom). He then says that flesh gives birth to flesh and the Spirit gives birth to Spirit. Is He saying that a man must be born both physically (born of water) and Spiritually in order to enter God's kingdom? I have been told that being born of water refers to baptism (immersion) but considering that He is saying "flesh gives birth to flesh" the idea of baptism does not seem to be what He is referring to. Thoughts?

Wayne Smith
03-22-2019, 07:22 AM
Physical birth and Spiritual birth are sight. "Born of water" refers to physical birth.

1hole
03-23-2019, 12:37 PM
... Spiritual birth are sight ..

Spiritual birth is "sight"? Please explain. ???

Wayne Smith
03-24-2019, 07:39 AM
OOPS, missed a word. Should have been that both are 'in sight' in this statement.

Thundarstick
03-25-2019, 06:31 AM
So, if the water Jesus is taking about is the physical birth, and not baptism, where does that leave baptism? Personally, I believe he was speaking of baptism in this passage.

Wayne Smith
03-25-2019, 07:40 AM
Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation - vis. the repentant thief on the cross. "Must be" is a requirement. Therefore it is physical birth that he is addressing, and would be the normal assumption for a Teacher of Israel, as baptism was not in the Law.

GhostHawk
03-25-2019, 10:42 AM
I agree with Wayne, not a requirement.

Rather a protection until they are of age to choose for themselves what they believe.
They have the Lords Seal on them and they can not be touched by evil.

However the other side of that coin is that Jesus was babtised by John. So I think a cast can be made for both sides.

Do we have a Babtist Brother here?

Thundarstick
03-25-2019, 12:09 PM
I don't buy the argument that Nicodemus was ignorant of baptism, and the fact that John was preaching, and preforming baptism "preparing the way for the Messiah". In my mind, it would be a greater streach to claim Nicodemus didn't know Jesus was referring to water baptism and Nicodemus was simply scoffing at Jesus.
I'll not argue that baptism is, or is not, required, except that there is a huge emphasis placed upon the act of baptism in the rest of the scripture, certainly enough to convince me, that it was expected of a follower. If so, compile a list of baptized followers vs unbaptized followers, I can find no evidence that the latter exist.

1hole
03-25-2019, 04:50 PM
The "must be baptized" for salvation to be complete is spiritual baptism - spiritual cleansing/washing - by the Holy Spirit, not in water at some church meeting. Our "problem" here is in trying to grasp in modern English what was originally said in old Hebrew or Aramaic with entirely different grammatical constructs and metaphors; some things just don't translate right.

Thing to remember is, without spiritual (born again) cleansing, water baptism by the hands of man by any means or at any age conveys nothing. BUT, when each man's immortal soul is baptized by the Spirit of God his spiritual salvation (thief on the cross) is effective at that moment. Thus, no external form of water baptism by the hands of man is required for salvation. Believer's (church) water baptism is no more or less than a symbolic testimony before the world of our faith/trust in Jesus for unearned salvation. (In view of these facts I believe infant "baptism" is a religious farce but I'm not ready to kill anyone over it.)

Wayne Smith
03-25-2019, 04:55 PM
I did not state that Nicodemus was 'ignorant of baptism', I said that his assumption (unconscious process) would go to birth rather than baptism because of his training.

jeepvet
03-25-2019, 06:28 PM
Thing to remember is, without spiritual (born again) cleansing, water baptism by the hands of man by any means or at any age conveys nothing. BUT, when each man's immortal soul is baptized by the Spirit of God his spiritual salvation (thief on the cross) is effective at that moment. Thus, no external form of water baptism by the hands of man is required for salvation. Believer's (church) water baptism is no more or less than a symbolic testimony before the world of our faith/trust in Jesus for unearned salvation. (In view of these facts I believe infant "baptism" is a religious farce but I'm not ready to kill anyone over it.)

It is my opinion, this is correct. I do think that "farce" is a bit strong, but I do not think that infant baptism serves any purpose. Spiritual Baptism is the saving power of Jesus applied to the inner man. Water Baptism is an outward act of obedience symbolizing what has been done inside. Is it a necessary part of salvation? Probably not, but scripture says, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins." Therefore, I believe that if at all possible, baptism by immersion, after profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, is a symbolic act of obedience publicly showing your the inner baptism by the Holy Spirit. (Believer's Baptism) At the same time I believe that it is up to God, not man, to determine the true salvation experience of each person.

Thundarstick
03-25-2019, 08:25 PM
Of course, we are all free to believe, and speculate about, what ever we chose about any scripture. There is just too much emphasis placed on baptism for ME to ignore it. If it's not nessery, I can't grasp why it's mentioned so often, it just don't make sense why it would be if not important. I can't understand any believer NOT desiring to be baptized.

Dieselhorses
03-25-2019, 08:55 PM
I'm a Baptist. Saved (born again) at age 11, baptized with water in a pond full of large mouth bass and guernseys at the other end. I used to be Lutheran. Anyway sometime after the pond experience I did get filled with the Holy Spirit (felt real good!) I was in my late teens by then. I got married and my wife's Dad was a UPC preacher. Well they preached that you HAD to get baptized by the Spirit in order to be redeemed/saved/born again....(Acts 2:38) (I might be wrong but lots of folks take that out of context.)

You asked "How do I know I'm saved?" That's easy. If you ever had, having, and will always have a personal relationship with Christ then there you go. The more we seek Him, talk to him, be faithful to His commandments, dig into the Bible and simply believe, THEN you start seeing, feeling and experiencing BIG changes in your life! God is a jealous god and has every right to be!

I know I'm gonna get bashed to keep writing this but this is just the way I was raised. I "believed" (had the faith of a mustard seed) and something small kept getting bigger and bigger! Bible also says clearly that "the joy of the Lord is our strength". Many translate this into "awe you can get hyped up about anything and be happy as a lark!" I tried that. Every new gun I bought lasted "a time". The last new car I bought "lasted a little longer-but faded". I'm just saying all this stuff on Earth gives folks such a false sense of security. I want something that will last forever!

The End

PS I DID visit one of those snake handling churches-NEVER AGAIN

1hole
03-26-2019, 06:36 PM
It is my opinion, this is correct. I do think that "farce" is a bit strong, but I do not think that infant baptism serves any purpose.

I call any event that conveys nothing to be a futile and pretentious farce. I concede that infant baptism can have some emotional benefit to the family but so does the "consecration service" some denominations hold for infants and that doesn't do violence to what the rite is supposed to mean.


Water Baptism is an outward act of obedience symbolizing what has been done inside. .... scripture says, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins."

True. But ... I believe the "repent and be baptized" is referring to the Holy Spirit's baptizing/cleansing; THAT'S the demanded baptism! We can fool men, we can even fool ourselves, but we cannot fool the Holy Spirit.


I believe that if at all possible, baptism by immersion, after profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, is a symbolic act of obedience publicly showing your the inner baptism by the Holy Spirit. (Believer's Baptism)

I agree to all but the demand for immersion.

I came to faith at age 16 (some 62 years ago) in a Southern Baptist church. I was taught and never questioned that proper water baptism was only by immersion. Then, some 20 years ago I wanted to know more of what scripture MEANS and less of man's efforts to improve it so I got a half dozen or so Bible word study books and found I had been taught a lot that simply isn't exactly so. Symbolic water baptism, if possible, remains proper but there is no warrant to demanding it be by immersion; sprinkling and pouring are valid options. I found that contrary to my Baptist training, the Greek word BAPTISM certainly doesn't have to mean dunked, it simply means to be cleansed; I've washed a lot of cars in my life but, so far, I've never dunked one.


At the same time I believe that it is up to God, not man, to determine the true salvation experience of each person.

Quite so. But, while we are charged to not be judgmental we are also told to judge a tree by its fruit, so which is true? Actually, both are true when applied correctly. First, what we cannot rightly do is judge anyone's salvation, that's indeed in God's hands. Second, church members not only can but should judge other people's known Christian life/example. Indeed, we are instructed how to deal with those within the Church who claim Christ while living for Satan (1 Cor 5).

I believe Christians do take what their ministers/priests/teachers say too readily and, in doing so, create poorly understood "traditions" that are distorted in some ways. One of these is the meaning and application of spiritual or symbolic (water) baptism. And that's partly in our failing to understand that the (untranslated) word "baptism" had no religious ritual connotation until the Roman Church got ahold of it sometime in the late first century. I mean, any first century Greek farmer who washed his dinner dishes or small baby in a shallow bowl or washed his dirty goat under a waterfall was "baptizing" the object of his actions.