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gcollins
10-17-2008, 10:29 PM
The dumbest question of the day!!:roll::roll:
Is the average wheel weight have the same alloys? Here's the deal, my rifle or my me are having problems getting what I want in grouping, I havn't been shooting my Sharps much, but thought we had it close at 25 yards, moved out to the 100 yards and after the last few rounds I was starting to get it to group. I am pouring
pure lead, and was going to harden them up a little, but all i have for a allow is wheel weight, and That is wht I was asking if they all run about the same alloy blends?
I would be great full for any help!!
Greg

9.3X62AL
10-17-2008, 11:44 PM
Greg--

The only "dumb" question on this board is the one that goes unasked.

I don't have any experience with the Sharps rifles you specify, and very little with black powder cartridge work--assuming that's what you're shooting. If you are shooting smokeless, the rules change somewhat--so help us help you by adding on powder type, caliber, and performance to date with the combinations you've tried. Just generally, BPCR usually involves a lead/tin alloy of some kind, while smokeless can get by with soft lead/tin/antimony alloys like wheelweight metal.

gcollins
10-17-2008, 11:58 PM
Sorry Guys! I am shooting a 45-70 with 56 gr of Goex FFG , 60 thou veg wad and 500gr pointed bullets. I have read where some or most long range shooter are 1-20, 1-30, 1-40, and they are using pure tin.I have casted for 32 years and allways used wheel weights. I was just wondering since I was using pure lead, that the bullets may be deforming a little. So if any of you guys that have played around with mixing, if you could just give me some starting point, like 1/3 wheel weight and 2/3 pure? or 1/4 w.w. and 3/4 pure or ect! or maybe, I don't need to change maybe pure lead is okay, I am useing a special lube.
What every you can do for me!
Thanks Greg

MtGun44
10-18-2008, 12:39 AM
I do not have a lot of experience with BP cartridge loading, but in studying
for my own use, 1-20 tin-lead seems the normal alloy. I think pure would
be too soft for good results.

You may get more action posting in the BP section, too.

Bill

missionary5155
10-18-2008, 05:59 AM
Wheelwieghts.. CLIP on TYPE Been using them for years and have to say I never checked individual hardness. Normal procedure I use is to get a batch of at least 50 pounds and smelt... ends up about 35 -40 pounds of WW... and generally they have been about the same hardness but that is not a scientific analysis. Over the years it may have varied a percent here and there.
Today may be different... the last batch I cooked 2 years ago was the regular same stuff.
So generally WW is WW... STICK on WW is different... it is near pure lead...

badgeredd
10-18-2008, 09:04 AM
The dumbest question of the day!!:roll::roll:
Is the average wheel weight have the same alloys? Here's the deal, my rifle or my me are having problems getting what I want in grouping, I havn't been shooting my Sharps much, but thought we had it close at 25 yards, moved out to the 100 yards and after the last few rounds I was starting to get it to group. I am pouring
pure lead, and was going to harden them up a little, but all i have for a allow is wheel weight, and That is wht I was asking if they all run about the same alloy blends?
I would be great full for any help!!
Greg

FWIW, in my 40-65 Pedersolli Sharps, I've experimented with alloy a bit as well as powders. I found that with BP and smokeless I get better groups and accuracy with 50/50 WW and pure lead, or harder. Now understand, I am relatively new at all of this and I am no 'spert by any stretch. Just saying with what I have tried, a harder alloy has given me fewer problems regardless of powder. I imagine that boolit shape and so on also effect accuracy.

My nickels worth!

Edd

Dale53
10-18-2008, 09:49 AM
I shot BPCR Silhouette competitively for about fifteen years. My rifles of choice are a C. Sharps 1875 in 40/65, a Browning BPCR in 40/65, and a Browning Creedmoor in 45/90.

After a good bit of experimenting, I concluded that 30/1 lead and tin works as good as anything with straight black as well as 10% duplex (RL-7 being the smokeless component). Others have done well with WW +2% tin or WW/pure lead (50/50) + 2% tin. I have had plenty of tin and pure lead available and I got such good results with 30/1 lead/tin that I quit experimenting and started shooting. Trigger time and lots of it is the answer to good performance of shooting and equipment in my considered opinion. My rifles will shoot minute of angle from 100 yards to "Way out there" with that bullet alloy.

When shooting smokeless in my Schuetzen rifles, I shoot 25/1 lead and tin with plain base bullets to 1400-1500 fps. That should apply equally well with the large caliber BP rifles.

Me, I shoot black powder in BPCR's - use them as intended...

Dale53

runfiverun
10-18-2008, 01:45 PM
just looking at what i have in my piles here i would try the 50/50 with like 1% tin.
and try more or less of ww's and pure. and shoot it, see what helps and what don't.
but most b/p guys i know do shoot straight tin and lead.

bobthenailer
10-18-2008, 05:45 PM
i use straight wheel weights with smokless and as per steve garb's book you will have to shoot the 500 gr + bullets at 200 yards to obtain best accuracy as they are not yet fully stablized at 100 yards but the 400 gr bullet is ok at 100 yards . i use a 540 gr bullet in my 45/70 at 200 yards , 25 shots in 2 1/4 inches says it all , i have shot 5 in a inch at 200 yards but that is not real world repeatable accuracy the 2 1/4 inches is .

gcollins
10-18-2008, 08:10 PM
Okay fellows, i am gathering this al up in head.
bobthenailer i could she the therory on the big long pointed bullet not being stable till it gets out far enough, but at 25 yards it was grouping good, but at a 100 yards it was sad untill the last few shots!
It most likely was me! That is what I was trying to figure out if shooting a pure lead bullet was to soft to get a good even spin leaving the barrel! Plus the fact. I think I might put a 1/4 more pound trigger bull on it! I havn't touch it, but the second you lay you tip of your finger on the trigger it shoots, and I can see that that might of caused me to pull the shot!
That is the only mould I have, but wally gave me 10, 405gr bullett, and then another gave me some anout 405 range i will weigh them and remove the lube that is in the grooves and re lube them.
Is that what you guys would do.
I will be very great full for the help!
Thanks Greg

gcollins
10-18-2008, 08:37 PM
I went out, and I have 100 - 405gr but they are sized 457, I size mine 459, and the 100 of 405gr are gas checked, so I need you guys to tell me what to do! I will only be shooting Black Powder. My back can't take the jolt of smokeless.
I will be great full for any and all help!
Thanks Greg

Blkpwdrbuff
10-18-2008, 09:51 PM
Hey guys, maybe we can get Mike Venturino to chime in on this. He has had scads of experience and most likely can relate some experiences.
How 'bout it Mike???[smilie=1:
Blkpwdrbuff:castmine:

9.3X62AL
10-19-2008, 01:43 AM
I'd say Mr. Venturino might have a thought or two on the subject. :)

Bob, that is some LIGHTS-OUT shooting at 200 yards, sir.

gcollins
10-19-2008, 12:27 PM
i have in my hannds right now SPG Lubricants BP Cartidge Book By M.V. & S.G. ,
it is a excellent book, but it doesn't mention anything other that mixing pure with different % of tin. I guess I am going to have to find a place to order some tin, and start over, and just see what happens, i was just hopeing that I could use the W.W. that I have in ingots and experiment with that.
I am so great full for everyone that has jump in and helped me on this.
Thanks Greg

montana_charlie
10-19-2008, 02:41 PM
You say you are shooting long, pointed, bullets that are cast in pure lead.
That is a recipe for slumped noses...which can be translated into 'bent bullets'.
They might hold a group at 25 yards, but the imperfection will have much more effect at longer ranges.
Casting the same bullet in ww could make it strong enough (with your light 56-grain charge) to give better performance.
But, with that light charge, you want to be sure the bullet is big enough to fill the rifling.

The .457" 405's may cause bore leading if .459" bullets will chamber easily.

Turn the trigger adjustment screw in to increase trigger travel. A half-turn might be sufficient. If you are unaccostomed to using a double set trigger, just use the front for a while...until you get used to the rifle a little more.

You can safely 'dry fire' the double set trigger (at home) to become more familiar with it. Just do it with the hammer fully down...not at half-cock.

CM

gcollins
10-19-2008, 05:45 PM
CM,
I was wondering about that factor! This is my first ever incounter, with Black Powder, and when I bought the mould i was told to shoot pure lead?? I havn't had any problems with moulding w.w. for my cowboy action rifles, but I shoot smokeless and real light, because you are only shooting 50 yards! I think I will give the 50/50 a shot and see if that helps!
I have heard of people shooting pure lead 500 gr, but they may be using a round nose bullet. The mould i am using is the only 500gr mould that lee offers! i am just a big fan of pointed bullets from ny hunting days using smokeless powder!
CM, I thank you for jumping in and giving me advice, This rifle might not like this bullet?
thanks
Ace

montana_charlie
10-19-2008, 06:54 PM
I have heard of people shooting pure lead 500 gr,
I have, too. But, I think most of them are shooting paper patched bullets that are loaded way out of the case...so that most of the bullet is up in the bore when the fire is lit. And, even those bullets are more 'round nosed' than 'pointy'.

I have only heard one guy comment favorably on the Lee 500 3R. I think he was casting it in straight ww, and he admitted it lost stability at extreme range.

BTW, I wouldn't choose a 'light load' just because the range is 'only 50 yards'.
A rifle will shoot a particular design best when you find the combination that it likes best.

If that is a light charge...then go with it. But if it likes 65 grains to put that bullet closest to where you want it at a hundred, your 50-yard groups should benefit, too.
CM

Yance
10-19-2008, 10:31 PM
Can't speak for the 'high dollar" rifles, but after experimenting for a year with different powder charges, wads/no wads, bullet designs, and crimps I've found that my Pedersoli .45-70 Sharps Sporting likes 70 gr of Goex Cartridge, compressed close to .300", Lyman 457125 cast from 30/1 sized .458, lubed with either 2/1 beeswax/TC Bore Butter or LARS BPCR Supreme. Cases all trimmed and just enough crimp to keep the boolit from falling out.

Goex seems to like a good bit of compression, and my rifle doesn't like charges even 5 grains lighter or heavier.

Bill B.
10-26-2008, 01:52 AM
I think DALE53's answer is the one I would go with. I also have shot BPCR's for 15+ yrs, and am using several of the brand and type of rifles he is. 30/1 seems to be the best alloy for these BPCR's. I have lubed with BP7, SPG, and several others, I never could tell a lot of difference here, the blow tube is what kept the fouling manageable. I would try sizing at .459", not .457." Oh Yah, I only shoot black powder in the BPCR rifles, smokeless is a passing fad.

As to wheel weights, the ones I have and use are all almost pure lead anymore. I have tested bullets from straight wheelweights, they will test around 5 BHN or less on the LBT or Saeco lead testers. I have for yrs added TIN to my mix to get the alloy of 30/1. 30/1's also make good revolver/pistol bullets.
The older wheel weights from the 60's and probably 70's had lots more antimony in them, if they were shot as cast from the WW's, they would shatter, not splatter, so mixing in some pure lead helped that problem.

Bill B.