38 Loads

[armednfree]

Loading for my Rock Island 200 and my GP-100 I made 50 148 grain BB wadcutters with 4.5 grains bullseye. Data for the HBWC is abundant but rather sparse for the BB wadcutter. 4.5 is max in the Speer #10 manual with their wadcutter bullet. But there wadcutter is waxed pure lead and mine is range scrap and powder coated. Mine cast at .358 the went to .361 with the powder coat which will not chamber. I resized to .357 with a Lee die and a dap of Hornady Unique case lube. ( I lightly wipe my finger in it and just roll the bullet between my fingers )` They look great!

Then I loaded Lee 125 grain RNFP. These were cast and come out right below .357. Powder coated, lube and sized they gave little resistance in the sizer. I probably could have loaded them without sizing but I wanted some consistency. I loaded them with 4.6 grains of bullseye and 6.2 grains of CFE Pistol.

I figured the CFE Pistol would take up more room in the case. I was wrong. When I tossed the first charge with the measure at the same setting it tossed 6.8 so I had to turn it down rather than up. I didn't figure on the density being so much higher.

All this is to test the R.I M200, but I will shoot my GP-100 4 inch at the same time.

[mnewcomb59]

Depending on seating depth, that 4.5 BE is probably between 20 and 30k psi. I would check a few newer sources such as the Alliant online data.

Historically, wadcutters are the most dangerous 38 load and have blown up more guns than anything else because of the wide variance in seating depth of various styles ( DEWC, button nose with crimp groove, HBWC) ease of double charging, and small case capacity leading to high rises in pressure with relatively small changes in charge or seating depth.

In general, the most shallow seated button nose wadcutters only go up to 3.5-3.8 grains of Bullseye in the data that I have seen. Flush seated wadcutters usually stop at 3.0-3.2 gr.

[armednfree]

I had considered shooting those wadcutters in only the 357 GP-100. These are actually button nose H&G #50 BB.

[reddog81]

Was that 4.5 grain Bullseye load in the .357 Magnum section or .38 Special. I’d be hesitant to shoot that in a Rock Island .38 Special.

[Outpost75]

Back in the day (1960s-70s) many eastern police departments had "full charge" wadcutters factory loaded for practice ammunition. The purpose for doing so was to approximate the recoil of the old 158-grain lean roundnosed ammo which was carried back then on the street.

Full Charge Wadcutters rounds produced by Remington-Bridgeport and Winchester-New Haven were assembled on WW2-era "plate" loaders. These worked like cut film holders for the old Speed Graphic camera. A plate of given thickness having 100 spaced holes was run through a tray of powder. Two sliding sheet metal covers fit tightly against the plates to hold the charges captive so that trays could be pre-charged and stacked in the loading machine. As each tray of primed cases came into position a powder plate was oriented over the primed brass. The lower plate cover was slid out and powder charges dropped into the cases. Bullets were then dropped into the cases and would come to a depth stop knurled into the case body. The rounds would then be profiled and crimped to secure the bullet.

The "full charge" used for assembling 158 LRN service loads was 3.5-3.6 grains of Bullseye.

The "mid range" charge normally used for 148-grain HB wadcutters was 2.7-2.8 grains of Bullseye.

Powder charge was determined by test firings. Powder charge was adjusted by selection of the correct thickness powder plate. These were marked and graduated in 1mm increments and several could be stacked together to create any volume needed.

The 3.5 grain "full charge" wadcutter produced 855 +/- 25 fps from a 6-inch "solid" test barrel, vs. 770 fps for the "mid range" wadcutter.

I would agree that the previous poster that a 4.5 grain charge with a solid-based BBWC bullet is VERY probably +P.

[Handloader109]

I use 3.6 gr of bullseye over the lee 90318 140gr swc in a 38 cal and it's nice and soft shooting. Another grain? Nope

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[armednfree]

They are +P. The M200 says "Limited use of +p loads." So these will be in the GP-100 only.

I loaded 60 with 3.5 grains BE for the Rock Island. I'm not afraid of failure in the pistol, I just don't need to beat on it.

[L Erie Caster]

I use 3.6 gr of bullseye over the lee 90318 140gr swc in a 38 cal and it's nice and soft shooting. Another grain? Nope

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

So do I and I find it a great shooting load.

[StrawHat]

You might find this interesting.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

Kevin

[dverna]

You might find this interesting.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

Kevin

Very interesting article.

[RMc]

For what its worth:

Speer #13, which came out after all the dust settled on the change from CUP to PSI, shows the 148 grain Speer* swaged BB-WC, "lightly crimped in the crimp groove" when seated to a COL 1.295", with the start charge of Alliant Bullseye at 3.9 gr. and 4.5 gr. as standard pressure maximum.

The current max for 38 Spl. is 17,000 psi standard and 20,000 psi for +P.

*The swaged 148 Speer BBWC is no longer in production.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've always been a fan of full charge wadcutters and Grant Cunningham's fine article (which I've read several times) only reinforces my fondness for that load. While a little over the top for just punching holes in paper and ringing steel, it does have the advantage of being a good "all-around" load.

Once again we owe some gratitude to Outpost75 for sharing his hard earned knowledge. Thank You Outpost.

Due to the reduced case volume behind that deep seated WC; 4.5 grains of Bullseye is really getting up there. While I wouldn't be worried about shooting that load in a GP-100. I agree there's no need to beat up that Rock Island revolver.

My "full charge" WC load is a SAECO #053 WC with 3.5 grains of Bullseye. That bullet runs about 153 grains with my alloy.

My Speer #12 manual shows the same 3.9 - 4.5 Bullseye load that RMc quotes above. I think my older #11 manual showed a load at least as high. I don't think the OP's load of 4.5 grains is extreme but I'm strongly in Outpost75's camp - 3.5 grains and a solid 148ish grain WC is a pretty good "full charge" WC.

[tucumcari_kid]

4.5 grains of Bullseye seems to be +p going into 38/44 loads. The only caveat to that is I haven't seen the pressure data. Many manuals keep lead bullet loads under 1000 fps for performance and leading considerations. Many times you'll see a max load in a lead projectile that is considerably less than a similar jacketed load. HOWEVER, I've noticed a pretty close correlation between standard 38 Spec velocities and pressures. When you approach 1000 fps in most mid weight load (140-158 grains) it seems that you are close to max pressures. In that case, the above statement about lead bullets doesn't apply, obviously. Second point is, at what speed and range do full wadcutters lose performance? 150 grains-ish at 750 fps at 10 feet is effective self defense medicine. Target wise, I doubt there is any benefit to going over 3.0 grains of Bullseye in a 38 spec wadcutter.

Hollowbase wadcutters loaded as intended --> head first, rather than base first, are supposedly questionable past 800 fps as you may lose the hollow base skirt in the barrel while it waits for the next round. I don't know that I have ever experienced this, but it seems that 800 fps is the general limit on those, so loads will differ from solid/DEWC. I load mine backwards for SD, I mean rabbit hunting, but still limit the speeds to 700 - 850 or so although I have loaded them higher in my 357s....

[tucumcari_kid]

The "full charge" used for assembling 158 LRN service loads was 3.5-3.6 grains of Bullseye.

The "mid range" charge normally used for 148-grain HB wadcutters was 2.7-2.8 grains of Bullseye.

Powder charge was determined by test firings. Powder charge was adjusted by selection of the correct thickness powder plate. These were marked and graduated in 1mm increments and several could be stacked together to create any volume needed.

The 3.5 grain "full charge" wadcutter produced 855 +/- 25 fps from a 6-inch "solid" test barrel, vs. 770 fps for the "mid range" wadcutter.

I would agree that the previous poster that a 4.5 grain charge with a solid-based BBWC bullet is VERY probably +P.
^
What Outpost said. I think wadcutters are an interesting design and there is probably a lot of fun experimentation yet to be done on the various designs. I am especially fascinated by Himmelwright's designs. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell-Himmelwright-Wadcutters.htm

However Outpost has it covered for the most usual day to day loads.

[tucumcari_kid]

Speer #8 first printing says 3.5 grains Bullseye max for 148 gr BB WC. So you KNOW 4.5 grains must be a lot. LOL :guntootsmiley::kidding:

[tazman]

Since we are talking about revolvers here, we are not constrained by the needs of a cartridge to fit inside a magazine. We can seat to whatever OAL is most useful for our needs. The onlu restriction is that the nose of the wadcutter must fit inside the throats of the revolver.
Instead of bevel based full wadcutters(which are great for paper) I like to use the Lyman 358432. It has an extended nose in a sort of bore rider configuration and seats to a longer OAL than a standard wadcutter.
The 358432 has no more of the boolit seated inside the case than the SWC does. This allows the same powder charge as a standard 150 grain SWC to be used. I use 3.5 grains of Bullsye with this boolit in the 38 special.
This boolit and powder charge combination are extremely accurate in my handguns.
One can also accomplish the same thing with a standard wadcutter by crimping into one of the lube grooves instead of the crimp groove or over the nose. When doing this, the boolit must be sized to fit into the throat of the cylinder.
I tried some once that were a slight press fit into the throats. They were extremely accurate that way but were a pain to load into the cylinder since each cartridge had to be pushed into place individually.
This would work fine for disciplines where you did not need to do a quick reload and could take your time loading the gun. Not well at all for combat type games.

[dverna]

Isn't it interesting that even loading for an old cartridge like the .38 Spl. we can learn so much from others?

I was going to load up some lighter bullets are higher velocities for varmints up to coyote but might look at the old WC as it would make a decent SD rounds as well. I am thinking a 1000 fps load from the carbine would not be too shabby.

BTW, I read that the WC was only accurate to about 50 yards...mine sure were!!!! Has anyone fired them at 100 yards to see how they group?

[tazman]

Isn't it interesting that even loading for an old cartridge like the .38 Spl. we can learn so much from others?

I was going to load up some lighter bullets are higher velocities for varmints up to coyote but might look at the old WC as it would make a decent SD rounds as well. I am thinking a 1000 fps load from the carbine would not be too shabby.

BTW, I read that the WC was only accurate to about 50 yards...mine sure were!!!! Has anyone fired them at 100 yards to see how they group?

The ones that destabilized at 50 yards were not going or spinning fast enough. When they are going faster and spinning faster they will be accurate farther out. I don't know what the distance limit would be.

[Outpost75]

The current issue of The Fouling Shot has an excellent article in which .38 Special wadcutters were tested in a custom, heavy-barrel PPC gun fitted with optical sight out to 200 yards. It is an interesting read which blows away much of the popular wisdom and gives guidance for success.

If you are not a CBA member and would like a .pdf copy of the current issue, PM me with your email address and I can send you an excellent example of what you are missing my not joining. No obligation.