Anyone casting for the Martini Henry?

[Tumtatty]

I'm thinking of buying a Martini Henry Mk II made in 1879. (.577/.450)

However I've started to realize that casting for this rascal is much more complicated than the WWII bolts that I currently use!!

Anyone have sources for brass?

Mold recommendations?

Loading techniques?


Anything will be greatly appreciated. I've looked around Martinihenry.com but found no real detailed instructions.


Everything I've learned about casting came from this forum so I thought I'd ask here first!:-D



Thanks!

[leadeye]

I have had one of the long lever versions for years and wanted to shoot it. The only place I have seen brass for sale is Bertram Brass, advertised through Midway. I think the price was astronomical last time I looked, around $5 per case. Good question, I will follow this thread. The answer will come out here on this board if there is a better way.:castmine:

[0802]

Surplusrifle.com had an article on this.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/loadingforthemartinihenry/index.asp

No experience with it myself. Good luck.

[Tumtatty]

I saw that article. I was warned by a pro over at the gunboards that their method was not an easy fix and it was very difficult to produce strong brass through that method.

I've found brass for around $3 a case (as if that were a bargain!)
http://www.oldyoti.com/moulds.htm

[The Double D]

I suggest you visit www.martiniforum.org for help.

Those guys understand the Martini and especially the Henry rifling.

Do not do busines with old yoti, do not send money to old yoti.

I also suggest you talk with that old pro over on gunboards and have him make some brass for you...he offered.

[Tumtatty]

I suggest you visit www.martiniforum.org for help.

Those guys understand the Martini and especially the Henry rifling.

Do not do busines with old yoti, do not send money to old yoti.

I also suggest you talk with that old pro over on gunboards and have him make some brass for you...he offered.

Hi D! Nice to see you over here too!

I sent the Pro a PM. Waiting to hear back from him.THanks for the heads up on old yoti!

That forum is Sweet! Thanks again!

[shooter93]

Look for articles by Croft Barker...I believe he just did a fair amount of work with that caliber.

[Buckshot]

..............I've had a MkIV Martini-Henry for about 15 years. Since I had the rifle I wanted to shoot it, and shoot it now. Not knowing my 01 FFL would have allowed me to by brass cheaper elsewhere, I went with the first place with it in stock. That was RCBS. Twenty Bertram cases cost $108.50 without shipping! At the same time, also not knowing any better I ordered 50 cast boolits listed as "Suitable for the 577-450 Martini. What I got were Lyman 459125's, and lube-sized .458".

RCBS also had dies for $350, but I knew about 4D die company and they had them in stock for $153. I loaded up my 20 rounds with loads from COTW and my 4D dies and fired them off. Accuracy was less then I had expected. Also, the casenecks had expanded radically. I wasn't on the internet back in '92, but information from some old 'Rifle' and 'Handloader' magazines, plus a friend who had some "Real" unfired Kynoch ammo helped out.

He gave me several rounds of rifle, and what turned out to be carbine ammo. I disected one of each. They were loaded with long strand cordite and paper patched swaged lead, cup based boolits. The paper was green and they miked .470" over the waxed patch. The rifle boolit was a RN of 480grs and was .462" in OD, sans patch. The carbine cartridge had a similar patched slug, but it weighed 420grs.

Checking the ID of the fired casenecks it was obvious the .470" OD was what was needed. Using the 4D dies to reload, the very first case clued me in to the fact that 4D didn't know what the Martini needed, either. The size die wanted to size the caseneck back down to hold a .458 or .459" slug. I called Dave at 4D and he said to send the die back with a couple fired cases and he'd fix it up, no charge.

I hate to have to wait and really didn't want to wait what I guessed would be a month to 6 week deal. I figured there had to be another way, so began searching in a book of cartridge dimensions. I found out that a size die for the 458 Win Mag case should work. I ordered a set of Lee 458 Win Mag dies, and upon getting them, screwed the size die into the press. The shoulder bumped before any sizing took place.

I had a real *** Chinese lathe-mill combo, but it beat the heck out of no lathe at all. I chucked the die up and turned off 1/4" for starters. I forget how much I ended up removing, but I had it sizing the casenecks just right before too long. In the meantime I had ordered Paul Matthews book, "The Paper Jacket". The process seemed to be straightforward and in no time I was a paper patching maniac.

None of the heavy 45 cal boolit moulds I had on hand would work. They were basically bore riders, and their .450/.451" noses were too small to touch anything. The MkIV has a very long gentle throat and leade. However the Lee 458-405F WOULD engrave! While being lighter it has a very blunt RN with a smallish meplat so it carried it's .458" OD out further. I was patching them up at work using 20 and 24 lb typing paper. These patched over the as cast slug gave me .470" to .472" OD's. Both shot equally well.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

This is what 60 of'em look like, all patched up and ready to go. A good lube when using smokless is spray moly lube. However it makes the patch almost the same color as the boolit. If I'm going to go to the trouble of paper paching, I by golly want people to SEE the patches :-) So in this case they're lubed with a mixture of beeswax and Vaseline.

In the process of working up loads I found that IMR3031 worked very well. It was slow enough that you could use up some room in the case, yet fast enough you didn't have to use a ton of it to get some velocity. I ended up finding a really good all around load that was accurate, easy recoiling, and gave good BP type ballistics. The load is 38.0grs of IMR3031 and dacron, under the Lee 458-405F, just like in the photo above. Velocity is about 1275 fps and it burns clean. I've never had a missfire yet.

http://www.fototime.com/7CD7CAD02940F78/standard.jpg

This is the only picture of the MkIV I have, and it's amongst it's peers (at least of action types) of the same time in history. One of the first times I'd shot it with the paper patched Lee's, I was really curious to see a fired boolit. I picked a spot in the berm and fired 3 rounds into it. I only recovered one slug and it was of singular appearance. It was almost like one of those Easter eggs that you can look inside of.

It was about the size of a ping pong ball. They'd been cast of almost pure lead. The nose, while traveling through the sand of the berm, had expanded and then been bent back along the shank of the boolit. You could look in and see the base of the boolit. The thing had almost turned inside out, ha!

Over time and with my FFL I'd been able to buy Bertram brass once for $88 for 20, and then Midway had them on sale once for something like $60 per 20. Anyway I managed to accumilate 100 of them over time. I've heard of and had people tell me they'd had nothing but problems with Bertam brass. I've been the opposite as I've NOT lost one yet, and the most experienced batch of 20 has well over 30 firings and they're acting like they're ready for another 30. I used to anneal at every 3rd firing, but have backed off to every 5th.

I also have 66 turned cases from the old Red Willow Armory, but haven't fired one yet. It's a long story how I got them, but suffice to say that their previous owners weren't pleased with them.

http://www.fototime.com/84C2840C23E9FD2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B36421DF639D5DF/standard.jpg

The above photos show a 45 Colt chamber adpater for the 577-450. I found out that The Old Western Scrounger offered these things so I just had to have one. As an aside you can see the caseneck sizing the modified Lee 458 Win Mag die does on a fired 577-450 case. There is a 45-70 in there for comparison also. I was really impressed with how the adapter allowed the rifle to shoot.

When I got the adapter the only 45 Colt ammo I had on hand was loaded with some light charge of Red Dot and the Lee 452-190 SWC. When you look at the length of the run the slug has to make traveling up through the adapter, let alone the throat and long leade of the rifle itself, it's amazing what it can do. That ammo sounded like a burp from the long martini barrel. IIRC they produced a 4" group at 50 yards, which just blew me away. I figured they'd make a couple somersaults before hitting the lands.

The fired 45 Colt cases would easily handle a slug sized .454" so I tried some Lee 458-340F's sized down to that. They produced some pretty amazing results. As I hotted up the loads the cases started to become a bit difficult to punch out of the adaptor, so that avenue has it's limits. I never had any problem ejecting the adaptor from the Martini.

I DID try the 577-450 with BP. ONCE! So I knew all about not having any airspace in the case and all that. The closest slug I had to 480grs was the Lee 458-450F so I cast some up of soft lead then patched them. To figure a load I just poured in 2Fg Goex until it was up into the neck a bit, and then held it against the spindle of the vibratory case tumbler to settle it. Then I added more to get it back up into the neck.

With 120 grs in the case I said "That Was Enough". I still had to put in a couple wads and then some cornmeal and a wad and lube cookie under the slug. Now the Martini doesn't really weight much. The barrel is long but slender and it has a big hole through it. The action isn't much more then a hollow box. All the rest is wood. I set the 20 round box of ammo on the bench and set up the spotting scope.

Got the sand bags all nicely arranged set the rifle down and sat down. I slipped in a round and snapped the lever shut. Hunkering down behind the rifle I pulled it in tight and leaned forward into it and drew a bead. At the same time as I pulled the trigger, someone ran over me. My eyes were watering, my nose was running and my right shoulder blade was just returning from having smacked into my left shoulder blade. Screw this sitting down stuff! I stood up and manfully fired off a couple more. Before very long I was trying to hunt up people to shoot the rest of them off.

http://www.fototime.com/9DC03C642E41F6B/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B160E910F6E0995/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/75D942E2844D619/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/53A314CB464F9BD/standard.jpg

I managed to accumilate another 577-450, but his one was a sporter. It has a rather heavy barrel as can be seen by the wall thickness at the muzzle. The barrel is in VG+ to Exc internal condition, Instead of Henry rifling it has ratchet (or buttress) rifling. It's a super shooter but the 3 rear sight leafs make for rather coarse adjustments for target work.

..................Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

My eyes were watering, my nose was running and my right shoulder blade was just returning from having smacked into my left shoulder blade. Screw this sitting down stuff! I stood up and manfully fired off a couple more. Before very long I was trying to hunt up people to shoot the rest of them off. ..................Buckshot


What a great "How to Response".

Don't ya just love that nirvana feeling you get for hours later? Your brain feels like it's lose inside there. And people talk about runners high! :veryconfu

[dromia]

Generally speaking Mk1-111 bores are smaller than Mk1V bores running as follows:

MK1V - Bore diameter 0.453" - Groove diameter 0.470" to 0.472" Boolit diameter 0.470" to 0.472".

MKs 1-3 - Bore diameter 0.449" - Groove diameter 0.465" to 0.467" - Boolit diameter 0.465" to 0.467".

My LoC variant BP load is 85 gns of Swiss No5 powder, three gns or so of carded wool to fill the air space into the neck, a card wad, 1/4" soft lube cookie, card wad and then the boolit either PP'd or greased types. I use Kynoch cases or Magtech converted brass. I could never recommend Jamisons.

Here's a typical 5 rd group shot at 100yrds, the flyer on the right was called. This was from a MK 1V with the above load and a PP'd boolit.

I replace the rear sight with a Ross Mk 111 rear sight, it'sjust straight swap is an aperture and has windage adjustment, makes for better shooting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/adamsutherland/Targets/targetMH.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/adamsutherland/Targets/targetMH.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

[Tumtatty]

Thanks guys! I appreciate all the info. I've got a lot to learn!


The above photos show a 45 Colt chamber adpater for the 577-450. I found out that The Old Western Scrounger offered these things so I just had to have one. As an aside you can see the caseneck sizing the modified Lee 458 Win Mag die does on a fired 577-450 case. There is a 45-70 in there for comparison also. I was really impressed with how the adapter allowed the rifle to shoot.
Are these still available?

[The Double D]

By the way any of you who go the bad batch of Jamison brass can send it back and they will replace it...and it is good stuff.

[dromia]

Douglas I junked mine at the time as unsafe.

Coming back a year later with their weasel words when they'd told us to get lost originally is just not acceptable. I bet they aren't having to actually replace that much this far on and they aren't going to be able to replace mine, they should have refunded the whole order as a matter of course if they were serious.

Getting things wrong happens to all, but Jamisons attitude and total disregard for us after selling us scrap was unforgiveable.

Once bitten twice shy, Jamison are an unreliable and untrustworthy company, their track record shows it.

[Buckshot]

Thanks guys! I appreciate all the info. I've got a lot to learn!


Are these still available?

..............I don't know. The Old Western Scrounger was sold to either Navy Arms, or Gibbs. Navy Arms I think.

...............Buckshot

[Echo]

This thread illustrates the value of this site I feel honored to be able to read the input from site members.

[DoctorBill]

Try Buffalo Arms for Brass.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/

I just bought 30 pieces at $3.39 each one.

Have a look at this method of forming the cases:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRnSOrPbho

http://www.mynetimages.com/8047bc2b4a.jpg

I will use the LEE Cast 457-450-F paper patched.

DoctorBill

[curator]

Check out the Martini Henry info on this site: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/
I have been shooting my MkII and MkIV using resized 24 gage all-brass shotshells and the Lee .475/400 boolit with considerable success. Light loads are much more fun to shoot.

[DoctorBill]

Curator, did you invest in a second LEE Sizing Die (SD2533 - $65 plus shipping) and then have
it opened up by a machinist for the first step Die so that you could reform the Brass to 577/450 ?

That is in addition to the LEE Die set's original cost of $90 at BA.com.

That would cost probably $120 to $150 as I can see it, maybe more.....plus $1 each
for the 24 Gauge Shotshell Brass to start with !

That makes the $3.39 each for Jamison Brass from BuffaloArms.com not so bad after all.

Would you consider making some up for us folk for maybe $2 each one ?

DoctorBill

[mpmarty]

Gee whiz I rechambered mine to 45/70 and just shot it. Cut off the back 3" of barrel.

[prs]

After my Henry is cleaned and put away, I may partake of a Martini.

prs