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468
03-14-2019, 11:56 AM
Bought the Lee 452 230RN and 401 175TC 6 hole molds and am having limited success...probably an 80% reject rate.

I've been casting, casually, for 20+ years, with 2 hole steel molds. My knowledge and experience is far from most on this site, but I've always been able to produce really good boolits without much attention to mold temp, alloy, melt temp, etc. I do not have a melt thermometer. I do not have a hot plate. Never needed it.

Obviously, there is a different procedure involved using these Al molds. The first drop or two are shiny, but with cooling lines. Then they start to frost up with cooling lines. then the cooling lines go away, but the boolit looks like a glittery Christmas ornament. I back off the heat and eventually get a few keepers, but nothing really that great.

Not looking to win any awards, just want a greater success percentage. ... and just looking to fire some lead down the range out of my handguns, nor win any competitions.

All input welcome.

Winger Ed.
03-14-2019, 12:45 PM
The difference I found with Alum. molds was they cool off real fast.
You can dip the mold into the Lead pot to heat them up faster or keep them hot
if your rate is slower than they like.

fredj338
03-14-2019, 12:45 PM
It is a get what you pay for thing. The alum is not the best quality. The molds seem to take awhile to break in. Make sure the cavs are clean, vent lines are open, warm it up on top of the pot while the alloy comes to temp. I start casting 2-3 cavs at a time to make the mold even temp then start pouring all 6. Yes a hotplate helps. Sometimes I have to alternate cavs to get proper fill-out but most of the time I can get good results in the first few pours. Frosty bullets, if it bothers you, consider alternating with another mold once it is that hot.

Rizzo
03-14-2019, 01:39 PM
I use Lee molds, use a PID (temp. controller for melter) and a hotplate to keep the mold temperature from cooling down while refilling the melter or before starting.
The mold temp is key to give good results. If the mold gets too hot, then the bullets will be very frosty. Too cold and you will see a lot of wrinkles in your casts.

Keeping your casting cadence fairly consistent will give better results also. I suspect you know this stuff already though.
A hotplate doesn't cost that much at Walmart ($10-20) if I recall correctly.
You can build a PID for around $50 or buy one for around $100.

In my view, using those "tools" will give you better results and give you more satisfaction and less frustration.

Here is a link to a thread about the cost of a PID:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?377968-Anyone-on-these-forums-selling-inexpensive-PIDs

Jniedbalski
03-14-2019, 01:41 PM
I have good bullets come out of my lee two cavity molds. The 6 hole mold I bet takes a lot more time to warm up. My frosted bullets shoot just fine .

Kraschenbirn
03-14-2019, 01:56 PM
As has been suggested, try preheating your mold on a hotplate. I've got a cheap Wally World unit and to get more even heating, I place a piece of 1/4" aluminum tool plate on the burner then set my mold on the plate and monitor the mold's temp with a "laser" (infrared) thermometer from Harbor Freight.

Bill

468
03-14-2019, 02:55 PM
Sounding like mold temp is the consensus...

Off to wally world!

468
03-14-2019, 03:03 PM
Thought: Why are Al molds less expensive than steel molds? Al is a MUCM more expensive metal. Must be the machining cost since its softer...?

Froogal
03-14-2019, 03:19 PM
I have the Lee 452-230 RN in a 2 hole. First 2 pours were kind of frosty. I dialed the temperature down a bit and everything after that came out great. I have noticed that the temperature needed for lead WW or range scrap is not the same as needed for something like Lyman #2.

Larry Gibson
03-14-2019, 04:45 PM
468

Casting with the Lee 6 holers is really not difficult but a few things must be correct. As mentioned the aluminum blocks heat fast and cool fast. Just this week I cast 500+ Lee TL429-240s and 800+ TL358-158s using Lee's 6 cavity moulds. I had very few rejections.....perhaps 10 of each.....

Some suggestions;

Deburr the edges of the mould and sprue plate with a fine stone or jeweler's file. I then check to make sure the blocks close completely when held by the handles. Remove any burs if they don't. Make sure the mould is clean. I degrease the new mould with brake cleaner and a light touch with a propane torch to evaporate any "moisture".....you will see the "moisture" come out and evaporate and that's all that's necessary. When the mould cools I swab out each cavity with a couple dry Q-tips. I then use a graphite mould prep on the alignment pins, the sprue plate (top and bottom) and on the top of the mould blocks (don't get any in the cavities).

Casting location temp; if your casting location area is cold (less than 60 degrees) that alone can cause problems.

Alloy; as is said; "garbage in....garbage out" if you don't have a good alloy the bullets will be wrinkled, not filled out or undersize. You don't mention what alloy you are using? The sparkly frosting you mention can be from, besides over heating, an alloy with very high antimony content and little tin content.

Alloy temp; with a ladle or with a furnace you'll get better results by keeping the casting temp of the alloy consistent. You want it hot enough so the alloy gets into the mould quickly and fills the cavity before it cools enough to begin solidifying. It does not take much cooling for that to happen. I prefer to cast with the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees for most alloys. The cost of a good thermometer (which I prefer) or a PID is not much compared to the time and frustration you've already encountered.

Casting technique. On the Lee 6 cavity when casting hold the mould by the handles only, not sprue lever. When pushed completely shut the sprue handle can easily pivot the block apart just a bit. Close the sprue plate and back the handle off just a tudge so it isn't pivoting the blocks apart. If using a bottom pour furnace I like to use a mould guide to keep the mould about 1/2 to 3/4" from the spout. I push the mould completely under the furnace and fill each hole pulling the mould out. Adjust the spout so a sprue is formed w/o excessive over flow of alloy. When the alloy boils out of the hole forming a sprue I move to the next....each cavity is filled separately.

With all the cavities filled I remove the mould and set it on an old machine gun asbestos mitt. I hold the handles closed until the sprue initially hardens then will release the handles. While giving the alloy a few seconds more to harden I put the previous sprue into the pot. Then pick up the mould, cut the sprue and open the blocks and let the bullets fall out. If they don't I tap on the handle nut with a plastic mallet. The blocks are closed, the sprue plate closed then pivoted out just a tudge and the mould is then filled again. All that sets up a casting tempo so the mould does not get too hot and the bullets don't frost.

Here are the 44s I cast a few days ago.

237927

Sounds a lot more complicated than it really is.

gwpercle
03-14-2019, 04:49 PM
Keep the heat up.... I cast right at frosty. If you don't they loose heat and the rejects skyrocket.
It's totally different from steel moulds..they hold the heat and sometimes get too hot.

There is nothing wrong with frosty boolits , they shoot just fine and when using an aluminum mould especially a big 6 cavity one, a guide as to when the temperature is right.
I never used a PID, thermometer or hot plate so I use the frosty look as my gauge for the correct heat.
Gary

MT Gianni
03-14-2019, 05:16 PM
Like poker sometimes it is best to cut your losses and walk away. I have had excellent success with NOE and Accurate molds in 4 & 5 hole styles. It isn't the material, to me, it seems harder to get the Lees to the same lock up every time. Part of the problem is if you have already learned what your minimum cull is and won't fudge on it.

kungfustyle
03-14-2019, 05:19 PM
This one got me, Like Larry Gibson said, if you are casting below 60 deg, this will give you problems. We moved up to Tennessee from Florida about a year ago and the winters here are close to freezing at night, steel molds work like a dream but brass and al are waiting for summer or at least spring.

toallmy
03-14-2019, 05:41 PM
You can just sit a steel plate on a burner on the kitchen stove to try in place of a hot plate .
It sounds like you are running your mold a little fast causing it to over heat casting larger boolits fast .
But more importantly what exactly is wrong with the 80 percent that you are culling out - Frosty , undersized ?

468
03-14-2019, 06:45 PM
The 80% rejects are usually due to cooling lines....and some that look like Christmas ornaments they're so frosty.

Reading more above, it seems like I'm going too fast. ... and need a hot plate to get the mold up to initial temp.

Re alloy, It's a mix of all wheel weights. I also add some tin if the molds aren't filling out. But I honestly don't watch it that closely. That may be part of the issue. As is my nature, if I figure out what I'm doing wrong, I will fess up.

Thanks to all...and Stay tuned.

468
03-15-2019, 12:07 AM
This is just flippin’ weird. I just finished up a brief casting session with that same mold. Probably rejected about 5%. I just slowed down, sat the mold on a damp rag for a few seconds every 4th or 5th drop...

All the s well.

Winger Ed.
03-15-2019, 12:16 AM
Thought: Why are Al molds less expensive than steel molds? Al is a MUCM more expensive metal. Must be the machining cost since its softer...?
Pretty much.
All things considered- The per pound price of the metal is barely toll road change.

Alum. wants to gall, and clog your cutting tools, but once ya figure that part out, the cutting tools will
last almost forever compared to cutting iron or steel.

Walks
03-15-2019, 01:16 AM
I cast for 30yrs before I tried my first Lee 2cav mold. I learned to slow down and put the bottom edge ofthe mold in the quench bucket every few casts to cool them off.

I already knew about thermometers and hot plates.

But when I started casting with a Lee 6cav mold it was a new experience. A 311-93-RN was an true Learning experience.

Hotter alloy, cast faster and use 3 6cav molds of smaller caliber, such as a 356-125-RN & 358-158-RF.

That's what works for me. Any Aluminum 4/5 Cav mold will works this way.

toallmy
03-15-2019, 07:54 AM
It will probably get better after you use it a few times casting , but you might want to go over some of the post above about a little extra mold preparation .

mjwcaster
03-15-2019, 11:58 AM
Ambient temperature is a part, but I found wind to be more of a problem.
I have cast outdoors in 20f temps with no problem, but there was no breeze at all.
Same setup on a 50f-60f day with some wind and I could not keep any sort of consistency. So I quit.
I have since moved my casting into the garage out of the weather.

Now the temps affect me more than the molds.

And watch out for condensation on metal tools in cold damp weather, I have had some sizzling/popping from ladles/spoons that have cooled down when place back in the melt.
Gets your attention quick.

Just run the mold/melt hotter in colder temps. Just colder temps makes casting different but not impossible.

Also I am only casting for short range handgun so my quality acceptance level is probably much lower than larrys.

cwlongshot
03-15-2019, 12:06 PM
I suggest you give them a real good cleaning, nylon bristle brush and all, hot soapy water then brake clean again then proper lube and het and try again.

As stated they aint great but they can produce very useable boolits. (And I aint at all a LEE fan boy!!)

I have both these molds, Both cast very well for me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/Casting/Powder%20Coating/6F86B883-D669-40D5-BA55-B96B6146EB53_zpsfeaxr6wc.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/Casting/Powder%20Coating/80EF5775-9A12-4253-8557-0F64A6A896EB_zpsem0ftpkt.jpg

You need to know your lead is zink free, but I prefer HOT casting, like others mentioned I let the frosted boolets tell me things are hot. I switch molds. I always cast with at least two molds for this reason.

CW

Chainsaw.
03-15-2019, 12:58 PM
I have MANY Lee molds and have only had trouble with one, its a 9mm TC 124, one of the cavities does not like ti let go of the bullet. The molds work fine, just as well as my lyman steel molds. The aluminum is definitely a different animal to work with, not difficult, just different. My method is to plug the pot in, set the mold right on top of the pot so everything heats up together. By the time the lead is ready the mold only needs about two throws to be up to heat to work well. My bullets come out frosty all the time, make zero difference vs smooth bullets. I shoot them lubed and powder coated with no signs of issue what so ever. Just my $.02 but I think you’re good to go, run em.

alfloyd
03-15-2019, 06:44 PM
New Lee molds need to have 2 to 3 casting sessions BEFORE they will give good boolits.

Lafaun

megasupermagnum
03-15-2019, 07:11 PM
I definitely know the feeling, and it is probably just the learning curve to different molds. I learned on aluminum molds, and I still prefer them. Iron molds seem strange to me when I use them. The mold warm up is the most important part of casting. I was never able to take an ice cold mold, start casting, and make good bullets without a ton of work. I cast as fast as I can, and half the pot is empty by the time the mold is ready. I might be an outlier, in that I cast as little as possible when it's over 60. Most of my casting is this time of year, and at night. The best result I get is with a hot plate. I put a 1/4" steel plate on it, set on 2, and leave the mold on there as the pot heats up. I never have checked mold temp off the plate or casting, but I really should. Usually when everything is ready, I take the mold off the plate, and make 10 or so drops as fast as possible. Usually this is enough to get the mold to proper temp. At that point I cast at a normal tempo, which is really where the art comes in, and inspect bases and dropped bullets. Once up to temp, I find aluminum molds are more consistent, and easier to control than any other type. Pot temp is always a hot topic. I use a PID, but I believe my thermocouple reads 40-50 degrees high, maybe more. I find the best setting for me over the widest range of my molds is 780, which in reality is probably 725-740ish. I lost my other thermometer. Even with brass or iron molds, I never could understand how guys get good results at 675F or colder, my natural tempo is already a rather fast pace.

Alloy of course plays a big part. To answer your question, I find COWW alloy to need a light frost when casting. Shiny bullets are undersized, and undefined bullets. Lyman #2 or Linotype seems to cast well when dropping shiny bullets. Binary alloys like 20 to 1 cannot frost, and are always shiny. Back to COWW or similar alloy, it takes a ton of heat to truly frost a bullet. Mold temp is really all that maters, which is regulated by tempo and pot temp. My advice to you is to check and turn down pot temp, and pre heat the mold. I've used a torch, and carefully heated molds, a clothes iron can work, even the cooking stove can work. Dipping in the pot can work, although every time I try it, I get junk all over my mold, the wax seems to suck right into the vent lines.

Burnt Fingers
03-17-2019, 01:22 PM
With new aluminum molds I scrub them down with a toothbrush, hot water, and Dawn. Then I heat cycle them three times in a 400° oven. Lastly I lightly smoke the cavities with a BBQ lighter.

Dusty Bannister
03-17-2019, 01:34 PM
I might be an outlier, in that I cast as little as possible when it's over 60. Most of my casting is this time of year, and at night.

Responding to this quote, it might be that the ambient air temperature has a lot more to do with your casting success than you realize. You are far north US and I am central US. I do not cast below 40 degrees, and often cast during every season other than winter. Time of day is never a factor either. A cooler ambient temp could require a higher pot temperature in your case. Also consider if you are casting in a breeze or if inside with an exhaust fan to remove smoke from fluxing.

If you are casting "pure" lead, you probably should be closer to 800 degrees for well filled out castings. So alloy has a bit to do with your results as well.

megasupermagnum
03-18-2019, 11:53 AM
That could be. When it gets below -10F, I often have to torch the pot nozzle to get it to pour. It stays warm when casting. It was about 25F last night, and I found myself turning the pot down 20 degrees from what I had been running.

rsrocket1
03-18-2019, 01:39 PM
My Lee TL452-230-TC 6 banger was my first mold and it's still my favorite mold. As you can read there are some who are unable to get this mold to work for them so they call it junk. Their loss.

You say the first bullets coming out are shiny but later they come out frosty. This shows that the steady state temperature of the lead you are pouring is too hot. The fact that they come out shiny to start with is because your mold itself is too cold. You need to preheat the mold. I use an open coil electric hot plate to get the mold up to temperature while the lead is melting in the pot. You can test the mold by making sure the mold is closed firmly and dipping the front corner into the lead pool. If the lead sticks to the mold in a big clump, the mold is still too cold. It should come out of the lead with just a thin impression of the mold in the pool. Don't do this with a brass or steel mold but an aluminum mold can handle the temperature difference between a preheated mold and the molten lead.

The first pour will tell you a lot about the mold temperature. Make a big sprue puddle on top of the sprue plate. Wait until at least 5 seconds after the puddle completely freezes. Then cut the sprue. The big fat bullets should fall out like rain. If the bullets are shiny or wrinkled, the mold was still too cold. If the bullets come out frosty or it took more than about 3 seconds for the sprue puddle to freeze over, the mold and/or the lead is too hot. If they come out just right keep pouring and making bullets.

The big bullets will also heat up the mold so you will have to cool it down after 3-5 pours. You can do this by 1).letting the mold sit open faced for a little while, 2). cool it down with a fan or 3). close the mold and press it against a sponge sitting in a plate of water or actually dipping the corner of the closed mold into a bucket of water for about 2-3 seconds. With any of the water methods, before you pour, open the mold and let any water completely boil off. The mold will still be a couple hundred degrees above the boiling point of water and it does not take any time at all for an open mold to get rid of all the moisture (I know there will be nay sayers but it does work to moderate the temperature of a big bullet mold safely and effectively). Aluminum conducts heat very well and the heat will even out on the mold very quickly whether dipping it into molten lead or cooling it off by dipping the corner into water. The important thing is to keep the mold shut tight and not let lead get on the mold face or not let water get into the bullet cavities.

The trick with big 230g 45 cal bullets is to have the lead as cool as practical, the mold as cool as possible while still not so cold as to produce wrinkled bullets and the sprue plate as warm as possible to keep the lead liquid if it hits the sprue plate and goes into the cavity. A bullet that has cooled down will be easier to drop out of the mold without banging on the sides with a dowel or mallet. For me, 9mm bullets are more difficult to cast because the smaller amount of lead will not transfer much heat to the mold and overcome the natural cooling of a 6 cavity mold so you have to get the lead temperature up higher to keep up good casts.

The only downside is that with such a big bullet, a 6 cavity mold and a bottom pour spout, you run out of lead quickly and have to refill the pot. It's actually a good thing because it lets me take a break while the new lead melts and keeps the session short. I often water drop these bullets not so much for hardness, but to keep them off the table otherwise the pile grows so quickly that I run out of room.

https://images.imgbox.com/29/26/uW3nUfVJ_o.jpg


Turn the temp down on your pot by a little.
Preheat the mold or pour out a few wrinkled bullets and dump them back into the pot
Get a good cadence and realize that you'll need to cool the mold down after several casts. You'll notice that when the bullets start coming out frosty.

MT Chambers
03-19-2019, 05:11 PM
I'd start casting with a good quality 2 cavity iron or brass mold before you venture into Lee soft aluminum territory, NOE, Accurate and LBT made good aluminum molds.

fredj338
03-19-2019, 05:20 PM
Thought: Why are Al molds less expensive than steel molds? Al is a MUCM more expensive metal. Must be the machining cost since its softer...?
I don't think alum is more expensive than iron or brass. If anything, it is easier to machine, reducing cost of new cutters.

megasupermagnum
03-19-2019, 06:58 PM
I'd start casting with a good quality 2 cavity iron or brass mold before you venture into Lee soft aluminum territory, NOE, Accurate and LBT made good aluminum molds.

OP has been casting over 20 years with 2 cavity iron molds. It's the second sentence.