Cast loads for deer with a 6.5X54 M-S

[Hook]

I became the proud owner of a neat little 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer a year ago. I have enjoyed playing with it immensely and managed to kill a small 7 pt buck with it last month. It performed perfectly!

Now that I have pretty well completely wrung it out with various jacketed bullets and powders, I want to turn my attention to developing a cast load for deer. I have a bag of very nice looking 160ish gr flat point gas checked bullets given to me by a friend. I loaded a dummy round this morning and it fed through the rotary magazine just as slickly as the 160 gr RN jacketed loads it was designed for.

However, when I started looking for cast bullet load data for the 6.5X54, there was very little to be found. So, if any of you have suggestions for a good hunting load with a 160 gr bullet, I would love to hear about them. I posted this in the Hunting Forum because I'm only interested in something adequate for deer hunting, not target shooting or plinking.

[smoked turkey]

Hook, I can't help you on a load for your wonderful little 6.5 Mannlicher, but I did want to congratulate you on a fine hunt and successfully taking a 7 point buck this past season. I am sure the 6.5 won't disappoint you with cast boolits either. I hear tell those rifles are top notch and between you and me, I would sure like to have one like yours. :).

[richhodg66]

I have several Lyman manuals, I'll look for 6.5 MS data for you.

There are a lot of people who seem to think hunting with cast in the small bores is a stunt, it's not. A .30 caliber or bigger is almost a no brainer, but going that small bore, please make sure to do your homework for deer hunting with cast.

I killed a good doe with cast in a 7mm last October and it worked fine, but it took a little more thought and figuring for me to be comfortable doing than a .30-30 or similar would have.

Somewhere leftover from my 6.5x55 time, I have an RCBS mold that is nominally a 140 grainer with a small meplat on it, which I think if it were cast with a soft point would do the job, at least under the conditions I deer hunt in. I may get around to trying it someday, but in the meantime, I'll be interested in seeing how you do with yours.

[Hook]

Well smokey, I appreciate the kind words about my M-S. I've seen pictures of them for decades and have even seen them on tables at gun shows, but never had the least desire to check into them. They just didn't look right with the bolt handle amidships like they are. Then I saw one at an estate sale and made the mistake of picking it up. If you have ever swung a fine, light bird gun, you'll know what they feel like. I just had to buy it.

I got lucky too....it's a real shooter. The rifle was built in 1939 and the scope is of the same era. It is a little milky, but otherwise as sound as an anvil. It's a Hensoldt 4X with post and crosshair and is mounted in German style claw mounts. I've tried 140 gr, 156 gr, and 160 grain reloads along with old Norma 139 and 156 gr factory loads. Everything shot in it so far has been from 1.75" down to a few at 1"!

http://i65.tinypic.com/33ldt8i.jpg


I bought the Norma factory stuff mainly for the brass, but I still had a handful left when hunting season opened so decided to hunt with it this year. It will be used solely with reloads from now on. I didn't see anything the first few times I carried it, so decided to shoot the first legal deer I had a chance at from then on. This little guy was chasing a doe and I got a clear shot at him before the doe. I'd have shot both if she'd have given me a chance because I needed the meat.


http://i66.tinypic.com/2a8hs9u.jpg


I have killed deer with cast in 45-70 and 38-55, but never with such a small caliber as 6.5mm. Can't say I feel overly confident with it, but suspect bullet placement will make the difference. The Norma 139 gr factory bullet broke a rib going in, cleaned off the plumbing on top of his heart, trashed his lungs, and broke a rib going out. He went maybe 25 feet and fell on his chin. A 6.5mm cast bullet in the same place would have killed him just as dead, but I suspect he'd have gone a lot farther. I think a cast bullet from this rifle would work better through the shoulders. Is that y'alls experience?

[Hook]

richy, I have several older Lyman manuals as well, but their cast loads only go up to 140 gr bullets. I assume that was Lyman's largest 6.5mm mold. I have scratched up a small amount of data that can be (carefuly) extrapolated up to 160 gr bullets, but I'd hoped to hear some real world experience from you fellows. Of course, 6.5 Jap, Carcano, or the 53Rimmed cases is plenty close enough to consider to be practically identical if anyone has experience with them.

[richhodg66]

That's a nice rifle and a nice deer. My Dad had one of those rifles for a while when I was growing up, but a lot of guns came and went and I don't remember him doing much with it.

[richhodg66]

Do you know what mold those 160 grain flat nosed cast bullets came from?

If I were going to develop a cast bullet deer load, and I think you can do it, I'd go with a design like you describe, cast them with soft noses (there's a sticky about how to do it), and try a powder like IMR 4895, maybe start with 25-26 grains and gradually increase it until accuracy starts dropping off.

[Hook]

One option is always to use the H4895 60% reduced load trick, then work up. That and checking with Accurate about a 5744 formula are options. But I have found really good results using 4227, 2400, red dot, etc., and wondered if anyone had any ideas.

Here are the bullets. A friend ordered them from Gardner and sent me a 100 or so to play with. He said it would be awhile before he could work with them and he wanted me to play with them. I am glad to oblige him!

http://i63.tinypic.com/2e5k668.jpg

[Baja_Traveler]

My old Lyman cast manual only went to 140gr, and I used somewhere around 26gr 4895 in mine (The manual specifies 20-30gr of 4895). I only tested it during practice on the silhouette range, and not for groups on paper, but it seemed to shoot alright out to 100 yards - the rams at 200 were a big stretch for the load though - it is a carbine after all. I inherited mine from my dad, who carried it all across the Brooks Range in Alaska after WWII. He fed himself for a whole summer using it, shooting everything from Hares to Caribou. It is a joy to carry and shoot though and someday I'd love to bring it back to Alaska for a hunt.
236090

[Hook]

Beautiful rifle, Baja! I can only wish mine had a family history. I have plenty of rifles, all of which get used, but absolutely nothing from my family. There were few hunters or shooters on either side and what guns they had burned in house fires or went to other relatives. Cherish that heirloom!

[smoked turkey]

Hook that is one very fine rifle. I'm like you in that if I had seen it, picked it up and ran my hand over the stock, and felt the velvety action, I'd owned it too.
The scope and mount are especially nice. I also shot a 7 even point buck here on our opening day about 7:30 am. I was so glad because it was pretty cold (13°) and I knew I couldn't last too much longer without some warmth. Your deer looks big also. Mine weighed in on the game scale at 159#, and made good meat. I am quite sure your 6.5 will make meat with a good flat nose (FN) boolit. The recent gun rags have the 6.5 Creedmore (spelling?) doing it all these days and the shooting public is buying them up as fast as they can. I think your rifle is capable of anything the "new" 6.5 can do in the game fields.

[725]

Wish I could answer your question, but, alas, I haven't any experience with the M--S in 6.5. I do want to toss out there a tid-bit of general info, though. After shooting the jacketed stuff, it would benefit you to clean the barrel of all copper. I use some ammonia solutions to wash the stuff out. Other ways available, but ammonia works great. Copper in the barrel will not be a good thing for the use of cast boolits. Best of luck with that lovely little rifle.

[richhodg66]

One option is always to use the H4895 60% reduced load trick, then work up. That and checking with Accurate about a 5744 formula are options. But I have found really good results using 4227, 2400, red dot, etc., and wondered if anyone had any ideas.

Here are the bullets. A friend ordered them from Gardner and sent me a 100 or so to play with. He said it would be awhile before he could work with them and he wanted me to play with them. I am glad to oblige him!

http://i63.tinypic.com/2e5k668.jpg

I'd be real interested in finding out what mold those came from. If they are commercially cast, they are likely harder than you'd want for hunting, but if a guy could find that mold and cast them with soft points, I'd deer hunt with a small bore 6.5 using a bullet like that.

[Hook]

Thanks, smoky....I feel extremely lucky to have stumbled across it. I've leaned more toward Mausers and lever actions over the past couple of decades but this one just jumped out at me.

It performed perfectly on the buck, which was smaller than yours at about 145 lbs if I remember correctly. It actually was a very satisfying hunt. The buck was chasing a doe around in a really thick bottom. I could not get a good luck at his rack (our lease has a 6 pt min for bucks) or an open shot at either's vitals. They bedded down at 160-170 yards. There was no way I could slip through the briars to close the distance, so I just had to ease down and get comfortable. THREE HOURS later, he stood up and started feeding directly toward me. Finally, at 150 yds, I was sure he had at least 7 pts and he gave me a clear shot. If he had gone in any other direction, I'd never have gotten the shot. The doe actually stayed bedded as I bulldozed through the briars until I was within about 20 yds of her. Surprised the heck out of me when she took off.

725, I actually took the rifle out this morning to finish shooting up those Norma factory loads. There were 6 left and the two 3 shot groups measured 1.95" and 1.6" and were right at 2" high where I zeroed them before deer season. After finishing them up, I moved the scope to the small mark I'd put on the turret where the 160 gr RN reloads were zeroed at 3" high. The first reload went 3" left and 4" high. That spooked me until shots 2 and 3 went dead on at 3" high and the holes were almost touching. I guess the old innards of the scope just needed to be shaken into alignment by the first shot after adjustment.

After all that shooting, I cleaned the bore until it shone like a new silver dollar. I swear that it looks new to me. I wish I had a buddy with a bore scope that could check it closely. I seriously wonder if it has been fired much at all!

Then, as a starting point, I loaded 3 cast bullet rounds with 12/2400 and 3 rounds with 20/H4895. The 2400 loads ran a little over 1350 fps and the 4895 were a little under 1450 fps. I'm not sure where I'll end up velocity wise with these cast bullets, but thought these 2 loads were a good start. Pretty sure I can kick the 4895 loads much higher, but don't know where the 2400 may start giving pressure problems. That where I was hoping to get some input or experience stories from y'all.

Rich, these bullets came from Gardners Cache (http://gardnerscache.com/6_5mm_170_fp_g_c.html). I have bought bullets from him before and thought highly of them. I recommended him to my friend who ordered a box and gifted me with about 100. The friend wasn't too impressed with their looks. I don't know the mold Mr Gardner uses, but the alloy is commercial 92/6/2. After I get to a velocity I like, I'll take it to my 100 yd range and see how good they shoot and how close to the jacketed 160 gr zero they fall!

Wish me luck!

[Rich/WIS]

Have a book in my collection "The Wilderness of Dinali" by Charles Sheldon in which he details his spending an entire year living in the Denali wilderness. He was collecting specimens for a museum and describes shooting the various game animals the region. In the book the only description of the rifle is that it is a bolt action and with it he took moose, sheep and grizzlies. Years later I found a reference to the book that said the rifle was the the 6.5X54MS. Funny thing is he had no hesitation about tackling bears, and killing them cleanly with what many in this day of magnumitis think of as only a deer/antelope cartridge.

[richhodg66]

Looks like NOE makes a similar design mold to that one; http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=27_181&products_id=826&osCsid=kl2ut5nj9gs0duia2pobt7di47

[Hook]

Not familiar with that book, but have read about the extensive use of 1903s in Africa and India. It's reputation for penetration caused many European hunters to take them along as a 'light' rifle. WDM Bell used it for elephant for awhile and others had no qualms about using it for large/dangerous game. Some of them used only FMJ ammo to insure deep penetration. This is with a load that has roughly the same energy as a 30-30.....and not as much frontal area. They must have been a lot surer of their aim than I am!

I'm guessing that the NOE mold could be the culprit although the meplat looks smaller on the drawing. I my measure one of my meplats to see if it matches the dimension.

[mart]

Have a book in my collection "The Wilderness of Dinali" by Charles Sheldon in which he details his spending an entire year living in the Denali wilderness. He was collecting specimens for a museum and describes shooting the various game animals the region. In the book the only description of the rifle is that it is a bolt action and with it he took moose, sheep and grizzlies. Years later I found a reference to the book that said the rifle was the the 6.5X54MS. Funny thing is he had no hesitation about tackling bears, and killing them cleanly with what many in this day of magnumitis think of as only a deer/antelope cartridge.

Actually his rifle was a Dutch Mannlicher, built by one of the English gun makers and chambered in 256 Mannlicher, otherwise known as the 6.5x53 Rimmed. It is the rimmed counterpart to the 6.5x54 MS and load data is interchangeable. I have one very similar to Sheldon’s built by WR Pape. There are a few pictures of Sheldon with his rifle. It is definitely a Dutch Mannlicher and not the Mannlicher Schoenauer.

[popper]

First shot lube problem. Boil off the craypola stuff and use a good lube.

[Hook]

Might have a point there, popper. Obviously, I need to do some homework or just stick to jacketed loads.

I have been working toward a heavy (160 gr) cast load at a high enough velocity to have a similar POI as my jacketed loads. My 80 year old Hensoldt scope is not something I want to routinely change settings on. I'm concerned about it's integrity enough as it is.

That being said, I tested 2 loads this morning that clocked at 1800 fps. Figuring that might be fast enough, I loaded a few of each and went across the creek to my 100 yd range. With the scope set for my 160 gr JRN loads, I shot at a 3'X3' target and could not get a hit. I finally moved up to 25 yds and got a hit about 12" high and right. The next shot was near dead center, but the bullet hit the paper sideways! A closer look at the first hole showed it to be slightly oval as well. I think I can safely say that my rifle does not like this bullet.

I came back to the shop and cleaned the bore, expecting to be mining lead by the pound. Strangely enough, I got only a few tiny spots on the patches, less than practically any other rifle/cast combination I have ever shot. I guess I need to drop back and reassess the rifle/bullet relationship.

[SvenLindquist]

Hope this helps. From the original Lyman Cast Bullet book available as a high quality enlarged reprint from Cornell publications.


https://i.imgur.com/fdYO4J4.jpg

[richhodg66]

A 160 grain 6.5 seems awfully heavy. I would think a properly cast 140 would shoot clear through a white tail just about any angle. I have an RCBS 140 grain mold with a small, flat meplat on it, not really enough for good energy transfer, I think, but cast with a soft nose, it would probably do fine.

[Hook]

You are correct rich, except that the M-S rotary magazine was designed for 156-160 RN bullets and does not tolerate other bullet designs/lengths very well. Getting a 140 gr bullet t shoot and perform well would not be a problem. Getting it to feed is an entirely different matter. Heck, even the 160 gr RNs have to be set at the right OAL to feed. When those M-Ss have the proper bullet, they feed as slick as oil on glass, but can be cantankerous otherwise.

Anyway, I have found at least one problem. The bore diameters of the early M-S rifles varied from .264 up to .270 from all I've read, but I assumed mine to be at or near .264. First, it has shot every .264 diameter jacketed bullet I've tried in it very well. Also, the action is marked 6.5 NORM, which is a later designation indicating the European standardization of the 6.5X54 cartridge (apparently, chamber dimensions varied in the early years), so I felt safe that I had a proper bore. After the debacle yesterday morning, I did what I should have done to start with.....slug the bore. Turns out it is about .268 so it's no wonder the bullet didn't work so well. Still don't know why it didn't lead up, but it's obvious that THIS bullet ain't gonna work.

Looks like I need to find another boolit.

[fiberoptik]

Beagle the mould.


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[Hook]

These are commercially purchased bullets. I have yet to find a 160 gr range mold that looks promising.

[fiberoptik]

Lee 160 TL


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[richhodg66]

Lee 160 TL


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Looking at Lee's mold chart on their web page, I am not seeing any 6.5 molds of any size or weight. Mind posting a link to where this 160 grain TL one you're referencing can be found?

[15meter]

Believe this is the mold:

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000066.5swed/6halfmm-swedish-170-grain-double-cavity-reproduction-mold

As far as I know this is only available from Midsouth.

I've used it in a Swedish Mauser, it worked well, using a 129 grain and a 140 grain Lyman mold now for the 6.5x54, the 6.5x53R soon to try the 140 grain as a beagled mold in the 6.5x52.
All my loads are G/C but plinker loads. The 6.5x52 are going to G/C with Ben's liquid lube, I don't have the right sizer for it.
All the others are conventional sized lubed and gas checked in a .266 sizer.

If I still had a memory I'd list loads, the load book is in the shop and the computer is in the house.

Those little rifles are a blast to shoot. Light loads, it's like shooting a 22 on steroids. And cheap. 2-1/2 cents each for primer and G/C almost nothing in powder, range scrap with enough Goodwill pewter to get good fill out. Might make $7.00 a hundred.

Gas checks are there more out of habit and they are G/C molds.

[Hook]

Thanks for that link, 15meter. That mold is not listed on the Lee website and I thought I had checked most available sources for a heavy 6.5mm mold.....but I missed that one. I cannot find any detailed info on the bullet. Do you know if it is GC'ed or what the dropped diameter is supposed to be?

[SvenLindquist]

The Swede was set up for a 160 gr round nose much like the one Hornady makes from time to time. It's a deadly killer on game you would never think to hunt with a 6.5. Boolits are a bit tougher because of the Swede's fast twist but reasonable loads with hard boolits work well. IMHO, hunting with boolits in bores less than 35 can be done but, J bullets are better. Once you start making bigger holes on both sides, boolits come into their own.

Nothing in the lower 48 would shrug this off. 450/400.

https://i.imgur.com/KAGKYh5.jpg

[fiberoptik]

If you slide sideways on the picture you get all the info on it. Here’s the picture.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/94f169976b2a725c47782f10a42a8a36.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Baja_Traveler]

I'm willing to bet that this 6.5 Swede mold is complete **** just like the 6.5 Cruise Missile mold that Lee makes. They are so over sized that it is impossible to size down to the required .264 that the Mannlicher needs. I ended up giving my Cruise Missile mold away to someone who uses it to cast for his .270

[kiwi]

[
That being said, I tested 2 loads this morning that clocked at 1800 fps. Figuring that might be fast enough, I loaded a few of each and went across the creek to my 100 yd range. With the scope set for my 160 gr JRN loads, I shot at a 3'X3' target and could not get a hit. I finally moved up to 25 yds and got a hit about 12" high and right. The next shot was near dead center, but the bullet hit the paper sideways! A closer look at the first hole showed it to be slightly oval as well. I think I can safely say that my rifle does not like this bullet.
Try backing the load off I have a 160 grain mould from Lyman have done a lot of load development with it in several 6.5x55's accuracy goes off at around 1700fps
never had a problem with leading barrels cleaned up with Hoppes No 9, lead was 50/50 WW/ Pure + 2% tin

[Hook]

Thanks 15meter and fiberoptic......just ordered the mold. Figured for that price, I'd risk it working OK.

[15meter]

If you have Ken Waters' Pet Loads book, check in there. I'm pretty sure there's an article that may help.

Accurate also has a formula for using 5744 in any case. With my memory, I won't quote it without having it in front of me but I know I've posted it on the forum when I had a hard copy in front of me.

I've used the formula for a number of cast loads in old English cartridges that data is just not available.

[Hook]

I actually emailed Accurate and got a helpful response from them. No direct info but parallel stuff that translated over. However, I've not heard of a 5744 formula and they didn't mention such, so I would love to see what you have on it if you don't mind digging it out.

[15meter]

I actually emailed Accurate and got a helpful response from them. No direct info but parallel stuff that translated over. However, I've not heard of a 5744 formula and they didn't mention such, so I would love to see what you have on it if you don't mind digging it out.

It came from an older book on loading British double rifles, the author claimed the formula came from the distributor of 5744, problem is it was an older book and I think the distribution rights for 5744 have gone through several hands since then. That knowledge may have gotten lost. I know I have used it to come up with loads in 470 N.E., 450 N.E., 450/400, 400/350, 416 Rigby, 350 Rigby Magnum, and several other that load data is virtually unobtainium.

I know I posted the info here, searched, can't find it. I'll check to see if I kept a hard copy, I took a photo of it in my buddy's book and I "THINK" I printed out a hard copy before deleting the photo.

Just have to find where I put it so I wouldn't lose it.;)

Then figure out how to take another photo of it and post it here. I've got the new phone blues, new and improved with more features but getting almost impossible to use. Phone now wants me to log in and "register" every email address that I try and send a photo to.

[Cheshire Dave]

Slightly off topic. Hook you mentioned your scope was not as clear as you would like. I recently got a Hubertus 4x back from Iron Sight Inc. after they did a great job cleaning and repairing it. It came on a JP Saur drilling with claw mounts so I really hoped they could fix it because it would have been very expensive to replace. They had me send 10 bucks with the scope to return it if it couldn't be repaired. They just put that 10 toward the total of 110 to clean and re laminate the lenses. It's bright and clear now. Ready for another 83 years of use. It did take almost a year but they warned me up front that they were back logged that much. Hope that helps.
PS I used the reduced 4895 formula with Dacron filler in the 8X57R with good results.

[LIMPINGJ]

SvenLinquist which mold are you using in your 450-400?

[Hook]

Cheshire Dave, thank you very much for that info on IronSighter . I just got off the phone with the nice lady there and plan to ship my scope to them. One of my primary concerns with getting the scope cleaned was any impact the process might have on the operation of the claw mounts. When I first got this rifle, I did a lot of remove-shoot-replace-shoot experimentation with it and was astounded about how consistent it returned to zero. I didn't know if the base/claw fit would go to pot if the scope were disassembled and reassembled. Based on your experience, and confirmed by the lady stating that other customers were happy with the results, I am now OK with letting them clean it.

[PB234]

Not desiring to highjack the thread, but can you charge the magazine of the MS 1903 using a clip? If so what clip are you using? Same question for the MS 1908.

[Hook]

Yes, you can....at least with the 1903. I have zero experience with other calibers. Finding the clips can be an issue, however. When I first got my 1903, I visited a friend who was knowledgeable about them and he produced a box of 1950s era FN FMJ ammo that was preloaded on five round stripper clips. They worked well in my rifle WITH THE SCOPE REMOVED. We shot them up even though the scope had not been zeroed (my brass, dies, and bullets had been ordered but not received) and had a great time. Since I was not planning to use the rifle much with the scope dismounted and the FN brass was berdan primed, I didn't bother to pocket the brass or the clips. Big mistake.

I have since been asked by a friend about finding clips. Seems he was having no luck. I dinked around with various stripper clips in my shop and the smaller head diameter of the 6.5X54 was too small for any of them until I tried the SKS 10 round stripper clip. It is close enough to hold the 6.5 brass fairly well. I cut one in two and pinched the cut ends closed. The result was 2 somewhat useable M-S stripper clips. I sent my friend 2 (he had some SKS clips so didn't want any more) and I kept 2 just because.

I keep planning to check back with my friend to see if he has any more of than FN stuff, but haven't as yet.

[Hook]

PB, you can find out about anything you want to know about M-Ss, along with some things you probably don't want to know, at the M-S forum on Nitro Guns:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=mannlicher

[PB234]

Thanks for the info on making useable clips and the informative forum.

[richhodg66]

I picked up a Greek Manliccher action today. Hope to eventually have it as a rifle similar to the OPs.

Yep, I'm envious and coveting another man's rifle, isn't there a commandment about that?

[Hook]

I picked up a Greek Manliccher action today. Hope to eventually have it as a rifle similar to the OPs.

Yep, I'm envious and coveting another man's rifle, isn't there a commandment about that?

If that is a sin, then most of us are doomed!

It would be fun to resurrect one of those old Greeks and turn it into something special. I wonder if the Greek military stock handles anything like the M-Ss....

[nekshot]

Congrats to Hook, Rich and any body else that has something even close to one of these!I will not covet- drool maybe but I will live out your experiences as you post about your shooting.

[6pt-sika]

I’ve wanted a 6.5x54 MS for 30-40 years and I purchased my first last December a Model 1903 with a Pachmayer swing over side mount . I took it hunting first with the PPU 156 grain factory stuff and plunked a button buck at about 55 yards boom flop . With the few PPU cases I had I quickly worked up loads with the Nosler 120 BT and the Hornady 123 SST both shooting pretty much same POI at 50 and 100 yards . A few days later i plunked a young die at about 45 yards and she ran perhaps thirty yards and folded . Which brings us to mid 2020 as I’ve purchased a second 6.5x54 MS , however this one was made in the late 50’s or early 60’s and is a Mannlicher Schoenauer Model MC Carbine . So once this ones in my hands the jacketed work will fall on the new to me model MC and my model 1903 will broach the cast bullet area . I’ve killed a veritable mountain of deer and bear with cast bullets but all in marlin lever actions or a Ruger #3 carbine . So only time will tell but with my own parameters I see no reason why this won’t succeed .

[6pt-sika]

Not desiring to highjack the thread, but can you charge the magazine of the MS 1903 using a clip? If so what clip are you using? Same question for the MS 1908.

I've got a Model 1908 Carbine in 8x56 MS I've had for atleast 15 years . Bought it at an auction back then and never bothered messing with it until recently . I did a chamber cast years ago and slugged the barrel back in December . Ordered dies from CH-4D and while I tried making brass from 8x57 and 06 brass I didn't have much luck so I bought 60 pieces of Quality Cartridge brass which also has the correct headstamp . This gun was set up with claw mounts but the rings didn't come with the gun and someone had removed the rear base . So in my initial work I used the iron sights at 50 yards and got very enjoyable results . I've since purchased an old Pachmayer swing over side mount like whats on my model 1903 and may have it installed . I've not tried cast in this one but rather Hornady 170 SST's and Nosler 180 BT's . Hopefully I'll plunk a deer or two with the jacketed stuff and this one may go the cast bullet route as well .

[koger]

Late to the party on this, but I have a Lyman 140 and 150gr mold, both drop at .266, the 150 weighs about 153 grs with half wheel weights, half soft lead. It shoot great out of my 6.5 swede, at 1700fps. I shot a 4" pine post cut off I had in my wood pile, at 100yds, and it went clean thru, with a quarter size exit hole. Never needed to run it any hotter than that, but am considering PC coating them and see what they would do. I killed a big doe, at about 100yds, with the round nose 150 gr slug, with Lyman orang magic lube, and a gas check. I tried for to hit bone and did hitting the knuckle of the shouder, and thru the shoulder blade on the off side. The bullet upset good, on hitting the bone, and had about a .40 exit hole, deer struggled 20 yds and down. A older book I had read about hunting with cast boolits, , stated that you needed to hit heavy bone, to get good expansion, and secondary fragments from bone into the vitals. I don't believe I have ever saw that posted on here. The guy writing the article was a homesteader in Canada, back in the boonies, and he had opened and closed 31 seasons moose hunting with 31 shots, with a 8mm Mauser that he was shooting 200 grain plain base bullets out of. The doe was the only critter I ever shot with the cast 6.5 bullets, but I had good results.

[Hook]

Glad to hear of your success, Koger. I acquired a Lee mold that drops a 171 gr FP bullet with my alloy. Unfortunately, the nose is too large to chamber in my rifle unless it is seated deeply in the case. Also, it refuses to feed from the rotary magazine. I really am not interested in continuing the hunt for a cast bullet that will feed, chamber, and be suitable for whitetails in my 1903 M-S. I have had such good luck with powder coating 170 and 180 gr FPs for my 30 cals and 405 gr bullets for my Marlin 1895 that I plan to just concentrate on them for the upcoming season.

Maybe I'll revisit the 6.5X54 in the future.

[richhodg66]

Late to the party on this, but I have a Lyman 140 and 150gr mold, both drop at .266, the 150 weighs about 153 grs with half wheel weights, half soft lead. It shoot great out of my 6.5 swede, at 1700fps. I shot a 4" pine post cut off I had in my wood pile, at 100yds, and it went clean thru, with a quarter size exit hole. Never needed to run it any hotter than that, but am considering PC coating them and see what they would do. I killed a big doe, at about 100yds, with the round nose 150 gr slug, with Lyman orang magic lube, and a gas check. I tried for to hit bone and did hitting the knuckle of the shouder, and thru the shoulder blade on the off side. The bullet upset good, on hitting the bone, and had about a .40 exit hole, deer struggled 20 yds and down. A older book I had read about hunting with cast boolits, , stated that you needed to hit heavy bone, to get good expansion, and secondary fragments from bone into the vitals. I don't believe I have ever saw that posted on here. The guy writing the article was a homesteader in Canada, back in the boonies, and he had opened and closed 31 seasons moose hunting with 31 shots, with a 8mm Mauser that he was shooting 200 grain plain base bullets out of. The doe was the only critter I ever shot with the cast 6.5 bullets, but I had good results.

I dabbled in cast shooting in a sporterized Swede, the rifle wouldn't shoot much of anything very well, so it went down the road.

Recently, I jumped on the 6.5 Creedmoor bandwagon (sort of) with a Ruger American. That rifle shoots jacked very well, and I still have several 6.5 molds and bullets leftover. Eventually, that Creedmoor is gonna get shot with cast. I've killed a deer with cast in a 7x57, can't see where this would be much more difficult. One day I'll giveit a go after some load development.

[sharps4590]

6pt., I have a 1908 with an absolutely pristine bore. I haven't shot a jacketed bullet in it since I bought it 4-5 years ago. I bought an Accurate, gas checked mold at 200 grs. and at 50 yards with open sight it just about cuts one, ragged hole.

[6pt-sika]

6pt., I have a 1908 with an absolutely pristine bore. I haven't shot a jacketed bullet in it since I bought it 4-5 years ago. I bought an Accurate, gas checked mold at 200 grs. and at 50 yards with open sight it just about cuts one, ragged hole.
I figure I’ll kill a deer with the two jacketed polymer tipped bullets I’ve tried in it then onward to cast . I might start with the RCBS 32-170 FM GC as I have that mold already on hand .

[PB234]

Have a 1903 and appreciate it. For those wanting a similar feel at a much less expensive price a CZ 527 Youth Carbine comes close also offering better accuracy, modern steel, single set trigger and easier to figure out ammo. The 527 Youth Carbine is discontinued but still available NIB. Some feel the 527 bolt needs to be broken in and after the break in runs very smoothly. If necessary add a pad to increase the length of pull. A fellow posting here obtained one large hole groups at 100 yards with cast from a 527 7.62x39 Carbine using cast.

Hook, does your 1903 say Made in Austria or Made in Germany on it? Beautiful rifle that I would turn into a safe queen, but that is me not wanting to risk damaging something that nice.






Hook, since your rifle was made in 1939 does it say Made in Austria or Made in Germany on it?

[sharps4590]

Gotcha 6pt. A friend gave me a Lee, 170 gr., GC, RN mold and it shoots pretty good in my 1908. Just not with that 200 gr. Accurate. What surprised me with the Lee mold was how incredible it shot in one of my Schuetzen rifles in 8.15 X 46R. Just about one hole boring.

My 1903 has a bore just barely rough enough I'm a bit reluctant to try cast in it. I might take a second look at that.

Edit: I've made all my 8 X 56 M/S cases from '06 brass with no difficulty or pressure surprises. What kind of difficulties did you run into?

[6pt-sika]

Gotcha 6pt. A friend gave me a Lee, 170 gr., GC, RN mold and it shoots pretty good in my 1908. Just not with that 200 gr. Accurate. What surprised me with the Lee mold was how incredible it shot in one of my Schuetzen rifles in 8.15 X 46R. Just about one hole boring.

My 1903 has a bore just barely rough enough I'm a bit reluctant to try cast in it. I might take a second look at that.

Edit: I've made all my 8 X 56 M/S cases from '06 brass with no difficulty or pressure surprises. What kind of difficulties did you run into?

The RCBS 32-170 mold I have is the second of them . The first one was used for 32 Special and 32-40 lever actions , when I sold the rifles I sold the molds I had for 32 cal . Later I acquired a schuetzen in 8.15x46R and I got another RCBS . Incidentally I had an Ideal 319 Perfection mold that was adjustable kinda wish I had that back . As to the brass I fiddled with it some just never did get it to suit me .

[sharps4590]

I've never had anything but excellent results with RCBS molds.

[Hook]

Have a 1903 and appreciate it. For those wanting a similar feel at a much less expensive price a CZ 527 Youth Carbine comes close also offering better accuracy, modern steel, single set trigger and easier to figure out ammo. The 527 Youth Carbine is discontinued but still available NIB. Some feel the 527 bolt needs to be broken in and after the break in runs very smoothly. If necessary add a pad to increase the length of pull. A fellow posting here obtained one large hole groups at 100 yards with cast from a 527 7.62x39 Carbine using cast.

Hook, does your 1903 say Made in Austria or Made in Germany on it? Beautiful rifle that I would turn into a safe queen, but that is me not wanting to risk damaging something that nice.






Hook, since your rifle was made in 1939 does it say Made in Austria or Made in Germany on it?

6pt, my 1903 is a bit of a puzzle. It is clearly stamped 1939 on the underside of the action, but marked 'Made in Austria' on the bridge. The knowledgeable folks I discussed this with on the German rifle forum and the M-S forum pretty much agreed that it was a left over action from before the Anschluss that the Germans just went ahead and turned into a stutzen without trying to change the rollmark.

It is a beautiful and accurate rifle that will never be a safe queen while I'm alive. It was made to use and I will use it. So far, I've only been able to bag one deer with it. You may appreciate that it was a 6pt (whitetail, though).

https://i.imgur.com/5a9ZDgf.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/iA4YWJf.jpg

You are correct about the CZ527 being a great little rifle. I have owned two of them in 7.62X39 and both were good shooters with cast bullets. They both ended up gifted to the children of close friends and have taken their toll of deer. I do have to disagree with you about their handling compared to my 1903. While the CZ is great, the stutzen simply feels like a extension of my arms. I'd seen pictures of them for decades and on tables at gun shows. But, I'd never picked one up until I saw this one in an estate sale at a LGS about 2 years ago. I picked it up, shouldered it, and immediately knew I had to buy it.

[6pt-sika]

6pt, my 1903 is a bit of a puzzle. It is clearly stamped 1939 on the underside of the action, but marked 'Made in Austria' on the bridge. The knowledgeable folks I discussed this with on the German rifle forum and the M-S forum pretty much agreed that it was a left over action from before the Anschluss that the Germans just went ahead and turned into a stutzen without trying to change the rollmark.

It is a beautiful and accurate rifle that will never be a safe queen while I'm alive. It was made to use and I will use it. So far, I've only been able to bag one deer with it. You may appreciate that it was a 6pt (whitetail, though).

https://i.imgur.com/5a9ZDgf.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/iA4YWJf.jpg

You are correct about the CZ527 being a great little rifle. I have owned two of them in 7.62X39 and both were good shooters with cast bullets. They both ended up gifted to the children of close friends and have taken their toll of deer. I do have to disagree with you about their handling compared to my 1903. While the CZ is great, the stutzen simply feels like a extension of my arms. I'd seen pictures of them for decades and on tables at gun shows. But, I'd never picked one up until I saw this one in an estate sale at a LGS about 2 years ago. I picked it up, shouldered it, and immediately knew I had to buy it.

Congrats when it comes to deer I’m non denominational !!! I like big tacked bucks but I shoot what I see . As to the CZ527 I have a pair of them with HB’s ones a 222 and the other a 6.5 Grendel , I’ve shot a couple three shot groups with the Grendel that were less than 1/10” after deducting the bullet diameter . The kicker was that those rounds were loaded for my Grendel AR-15 !

[6pt-sika]

Next season I’ve got the Mannlicher Schoenauer MC Carbine in 6.5x54 MS to blood as well as a Mannlicher Schoenauer MCA Carbine in 7x57 . I’ve been intrested in Mannlicher Schoenauer Guns for over fifty years and at the moment I’ve got the 1903 a 1908 and six of the MC/MCA carbines . Also have a CZ550 FS in 6.5x55 that I’ve killed deer with .

[Hook]

Congrats when it comes to deer I’m non denominational !!! I like big tacked bucks but I shoot what I see .
Yep....pretty much my game plan as well, although the last few years I've tended to let the nice young bucks walk. This one was an exception because I was very anxious to blood the M-S. I'd already decided that a shooter (we shoot does and bucks 6 pts or better on our lease) was gonna be toast if I was carrying it.

I was totally uninterested in M-Ss until shouldering this one, the first one I ever picked up. Just by looking at them, I figured that mid placed bolt handle would be as awkward as all get out. However, it was love at first touch. The full stock didn't hurt matters either. I've had a love affair with them since building one in the mid 80s using a barreled Whitworth 7X57 action and a Fagen 90% stock.

I've been thinning out the safes to concentrate on just the favorites in the few hunting years I have left. The two Brno 22Fs (7 and 8X57) and a twin to your CZ will be used mostly from here on out. That CZ 550FS in 6.5 Swede is easily the most accurate full stocked rifle I've ever owned. Too bad it's so clunky....comparing it to it's grandfathers (the two Brnos) is like comparing a heavy weight boxer to a couple of gymnasts! I just cannot understand why the CZ/Brno rifles morphed from the slick, agile 21s and 22s to the 550. I guess they were going for rugged so you could beat an animal to death if you forgot your ammo….

[fiberoptik]

I fell in love with them at first sight as well. Unfortunately none have ever came to call on me yet. Love the full stocks. Would also like a 10-22 in full stock. Someday......


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[6pt-sika]

I was fortunate yesterday and found a rather nice early 60’s or earlier Mannlicher Schoenauer MC half stock in 06 . It has double triggers a Jaeger side mount and a nice older Leupold Vari XII 2-7 . The trigger will be switched with my MC carbine in 6.5x54 MS , the mount will be removed and put in my parts box . Finally the Leupold will go on top the 6.5 and the 06 will head down the road . The 6.5x54 MS at the moment has a 70’s Weaver V4.5 on top (1.5-4.5x) that one just might end up on top my Mannlicher Schoenauer model 1908 8x56 MS as I also have a spare new old stock Pachmayer swing over mount for a MS same as what’s on my 1903 in 6.5x54 MS .

[fcvan]

I fell in love with them at first sight as well. Unfortunately none have ever came to call on me yet. Love the full stocks. Would also like a 10-22 in full stock. Someday......

I like your idea of a full stock, but would love a take-down 10/22. I wonder what that would look like. Yes, I know that defeats the purpose. I went shopping for a 10/22 (1992?), many years before you could get a take-down, and saw a rifle that intrigued me. It was a browning design take down made overseas. I had read a mini biography of JM Browning, and there was a picture of him afield with one, and it was described as one of his favorite designs. He had designed so many things, mostly for military contracts, and he designed this just for fun/small game/enjoyment, some sort of thing. He died the following year.

After pondering, I think I would stick with your idea, full stock, figured walnut, rich finish. Sometimes they just have to be as pretty as they are functional. I don't need another 22lr but who says need is a consideration in this day in age. As of yesterday, I have 2 new grandsons. Maybe I really do need another . . 2!