Winchester 350 Legend

[Rick R]

I was at the Great American Outdoor Show last week and Winchester is rolling out this:
https://winchester.com/350-Legend

Basically a .223/5.56 straight wall case shooting a .357” bullet. I can hunt with almost any cartridge I please here in WV and don’t require a straight wall cartridge, but this might make a cute cast boolit launcher.

[nagantguy]

I’ve been looking at that as well; it isn’t as good as my 357 max with heavy cast or 180 jwords but a factory supported solution to straight wall restricted areas ; it’s definitely interesting and I would build an ar for it; if it proves to be more than a flash in the pan.

[P Flados]

There are two other active threads on this round already

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?375295-anyone-check-out-the-new-300-win-legand-round

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?375266-New-35-caliber

[dbmjr1]

I like the concept. Basically .357 Max in an AR platform.

I've a few issues:

Hard to get brass in a brass chucker means struggling to find every piece.

Must use propitiatory magazines. Won't feed from a regular mag.

[Dan Cash]

The .351 Self Loading died a timely and deserved death. This is its clone.

[jaysouth]

Neat idea for an AR. I have two single shot 357MAXs. One a handi rifle with 16" bbl and a CVA Scout pistol. I love them, but i would like to have a .350 Legend in a Savage bolt action carbine. No AR brass slingers for me.

[Tripplebeards]

I’ll keep my 450BM Ruger American. Just doesn’t get me excited. Kinds reminds me of a 445 super mag or 357 maximum. It’s like a bridge that has already been crossed.

[rking22]

After you seat an RCBS 200 in that case it won’t go thru an ar magazine, suspect that’s the reason for the stubby bullet in the release. That and marketing, can they not make a video without noise!
35s have not fared well in the US market, maybe a catchy metric name....,

[Rick R]

The rep I spoke with said it would work in a normal AR magazine but not to full capacity. I’d think it’d be fun in a small action bolt rifle with enough magazine to allow some wiggle room for boolit length.

I wonder if brass could be formed from Starline .223 Basic or is it a rebated rim design?
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/223-Basic/

Sorry to add an extra topic, I searched the forum before posting and didn’t find those earlier two.

[Rick R]

And to answer my own question, nope it’s a proprietary cartridge.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/350-Legend-Public-Introduction.pdf

After watching a co-worker struggle to feed a .243 WSSM I think I’ll pass.

[retread]

Same rim dimension but the body forward of the rim is approximated .125 (or 1/8") larger that a 223 Remington.

[rking22]

I think that’s .012, .378 to .390.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have an old Savage 110 that was re chambered from 222 to 223 and this cartridge interests me. I have a 357 Max Martini but would love a bolt gun in 350. Regards Stephen

[rking22]

Brass could be made from 223 basic but may need a neck turn/ream. The marketing hype on their sight was such a turnoff to me I don’t think I could bring myself to buy any of it! More WSSM none sense.

[McFred]

After watching a co-worker struggle to feed a .243 WSSM I think I’ll pass.

Hey, don't blame the cartridge. I shoot plenty of WSSM flavor rounds from a magazine and never have had an issue. The cartridge is just one part of a system that has to work together to work well. If fat/stubby cartridges were inherently unable to be fed reliably then semiautomatic shotguns would not exist. Period.

I for one hope that the 350 whoopdeedoo takes off so I can have a cheaper source of medium velocity .35cal projectiles and raw barrels. I'm rooting for them. Other than that I have no interest in owning a 350 Legend. :D

[Rick R]

Hey, don't blame the cartridge. I shoot plenty of WSSM flavor rounds from a magazine and never have had an issue...:D

Actually he can’t find any cartridges any where around here. Loves the little blaster but the ammo is apparently only made during the blue moon.

[McFred]

Ah, I see. I reload and have a pile of new brass. No such thing as a shortage now and irregular lunar cycles are irrelevent to me.

[hicard]

I was interested in this until I found that the bullets are .355 and I can't convert 223 brass into 350 Legend. I'll keep my 358 MGP.

[Hardcast416taylor]

IF I did fall victem to getting a firearm in this `NEW` round, it would have to be in either a bolt gun or some variety of a single shot. There is no way on GODS green earth I would get something on the AR/M-16 platform!Robert

[Hickory]

Well, with a .355" diameter bullet it does not qualify for a legal hunting round in Ohio, it's 0.002" too small. And when I first learned of this new round I got excited enough to seriously consider buying an AR. Oh, well. Maybe next time.

[quilbilly]

Check out Mike Bellm's website - https://www.bellmtcs.com - for quite a bit of information about this new cartridge and his comparisons with the 357 max. In one of his recent newsletters of a week or two ago, I believe he noted that this round actually shoots stand 357 diameter bullets, not 9mm types.

[rking22]

I am a bit confused, we are cast bullet shooters here, why be concerned about .002 bore size. Size it to what the rifle likes, if you like the idea of the caliber. Personally I don't have a need for it, 35 Rem serves fine for me, but I can see a nitch. True that the factory chamber length is aggravating but starlings 223 basic should protect for brass availability. It could be interesting in a single shot, retroated to take an RCBS 200 and with a rim. OOPS, pretty much a 357 max, a proven round. Winchester's round is designed for the marketing, less recipient than a 243, good. More muzzle energy ghan a 3030, well, who cares, I hunt close but not muzzle close! Why not compare apples to apples??? A rimless 357max really is a fine round, leave it to Winchester to screw it up!

[Nrut]

If someone comes out with this cart. in a lwt. mini-bolt action, 1:16 twist and throated to accommodate a RCBS 200gr. bullet I'll be all over it..
Lots of naysayers on this thread spouting false information..
Sad...[smilie=1:

[GARD72977]

Check this out
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/xpr/xpr-current-products/sporter.html

350 Legend bolt gun

[rking22]

You can always run a throating reamer in to correct their oversight:lol:
Actually might tempt me into one of those cheap light Ruger bolt guns(American?), plastic and all! A finish reamer to "fix" Winchester's oversight would be reasonable if several folk shared, like the 357max community reamer share.

[GARD72977]

I bought a piloted throat reamer for my 9mm Glock KKM barrel. It has a tight March chamber. Cut just enough to have no problem with coated bullets. Cost 75.00

[worker]

I am looking at the chamber spec
in the below link

Can anybody comment, how headspacing would work.
There is no rim, is it going to headspace on the case mounth?
And if yes, doesn' it mean that the cartridge will still require trimming like all the bottle necked cartridges?

Also, is there any info on why .223 case cannot be used for this (after making it into a straight wall)?




And to answer my own question, nope it’s a proprietary cartridge.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/350-Legend-Public-Introduction.pdf

After watching a co-worker struggle to feed a .243 WSSM I think I’ll pass.

[bikerbeans]

I am looking at the chamber spec
in the below link

Can anybody comment, how headspacing would work.
There is no rim, is it going to headspace on the case mounth?
And if yes, doesn' it mean that the cartridge will still require trimming like all the bottle necked cartridges?

Also, is there any info on why .223 case cannot be used for this (after making it into a straight wall)?

The casehead for a 350l is approx 0.012" larger than a 223 casehead. If you convert the 223 brass to 350l the brass will bulge a little at the casehead/sidewall transition.

Cartridge headspaces off the case mouth so trim length will need to be right.

BB

[SvenLindquist]

Here are some FACTS on the cartridge from recognized sources. Don't really see much not to like for those in straight wall states.

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2019/1/31/first-look-winchester-350-legend/

and

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019/01/21/shot-2019-winchester-new-350-legend/

and

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019/01/26/shot-show-2019-cmmg-resolute-350-legend/

[worker]

Hmm.. .so this is not a .223 straigh-walled
more like a 9mm extended.

Would starline's .223 untappered work ?
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/223-Basic/

Also, I am thinking... could a used up .35L shortened case (eg after a neck split, for example), be still salvaged into .22 TCM blank case ?

Another thing, I am linking about .35L -- is that I think this can become
a wheel gun, a wheel rifle base cartridge, in addition to already existing bolt and AR platforms...

Lots of things to think about! :-)

One of the reasons I am looking at this, is that I have 0 investment into .300 blackout, and now, given that we decided we need something slow/but heavy with AR15 mags+bolt compatibility... -- why not .350L.




The casehead for a 350l is approx 0.012" larger than a 223 casehead. If you convert the 223 brass to 350l the brass will bulge a little at the casehead/sidewall transition.

Cartridge headspaces off the case mouth so trim length will need to be right.

BB

[SvenLindquist]

Guess I'd just buy the stuff w/the correct headstamp. Some idiot would figure out some way to cram in it a 223/6.8/300BO gun.

[SvenLindquist]

Well, with a .355" diameter bullet it does not qualify for a legal hunting round in Ohio, it's 0.002" too small. And when I first learned of this new round I got excited enough to seriously consider buying an AR. Oh, well. Maybe next time.

It's not .355.

[richhodg66]

What states require the straight walled cartridge thing for deer? Seems like that is the only thing this cartridge really has going for it over several long established cartridges that do the same thing as well or better. Even in one of those states, seems like this combo would have a long way to go to equal the .450 Bushmaster bolt guns out there now.

Someone mentioned the .351 WSL, seems like this is a reincarnation of it, and in my experience using it, the .351 is a good woods deer gun, but there are many things out there I'd pick over it.

[P Flados]

Would starline's .223 untappered work ?


Without any doubt, the 223 basic will work. Depending on you bullets and your actual chamber dimensions, neck turning / reaming may be required.

Trimming will be needed. And a word for the wise, the initial trim should be to remove just barely enough to chamber. When the round "fire forms" to the chamber, the OD will increase, especially down toward the base. As it expands, it will result in the brass getting shorter.

I have a 357AR (357 Max rimless) that is very similar. I put a lot of work into converting 223, only to end up scrapping a big percentage as many of the cases ended up too short after fire forming. I actually need to convert another big batch (with more care to avoid the "too short" problem), but have been putting it off.

Now for Winchester. The round may indeed be designed for 0.355" bullets, but the ammo ads claim it is 0.357". We will not be sure of all of the details for a while. The factory clowns may have missed the Ohio 0.357" minimum diameter requirement early on, designed the round for 0.355", then noticed the 0.357" requirement. They may now be in a smoke screen effort (claiming 0.357" when the ammo is 0.355") to try to get the guns to sell in all of the target states.

Since Winchester is claiming 0.357" for the ammo, I doubt anyone would have a problem. However, if you worried about the 0.355" being too small, just load your own with 0.357" or 0.358". These diameters would be good choices for PC on cast :-P.

[bikerbeans]

The SAAMI spec for the 350L indicates it is a rebated rim cartridge. Kinda of a scaled down 450 BM.

Per SAAMI, groove is 0.355" and bore 0.346"

BB

BB

[P Flados]

Guess I'd just buy the stuff w/the correct headstamp. Some idiot would figure out some way to cram in it a 223/6.8/300BO gun.

The starline 223 basic is not stamped with any designation. No worry about idiots thinking you ammo will fit a 223 / 5.56 gun.

[P Flados]

Can anybody comment, how headspacing would work.
There is no rim, is it going to headspace on the case mounth?
And if yes, doesn' it mean that the cartridge will still require trimming like all the bottle necked cartridges?

Also, is there any info on why .223 case cannot be used for this (after making it into a straight wall)?

Converted 223 can work, but because it does headspace on the mouth, the case length is important. When I did some test conversions, I found that a medium percentage of 223 should be Ok for a minimum spec chamber length 350L after fire forming, and only a small percentage of converted cases will be ok after fire forming if your chamber length is close to max allowed by the spec.

Good news (in a way) is that I think that a properly set up loading arrangement will work fine. I made a custom steel taper sizing die, and am getting minimal case "stretching" in my 357AR. I expect the 350L to function virtually the same as the 357AR Therefore, if you get set up right (not working the brass too much), brass should last a long time with minimal needs for case trimming.

[P Flados]

I am a bit confused, we are cast bullet shooters here, why be concerned about .002 bore size. Size it to what the rifle likes, if you like the idea of the caliber. Personally I don't have a need for it, 35 Rem serves fine for me, but I can see a nitch. True that the factory chamber length is aggravating but starlings 223 basic should protect for brass availability. It could be interesting in a single shot, retroated to take an RCBS 200 and with a rim. OOPS, pretty much a 357 max, a proven round. Winchester's round is designed for the marketing, less recipient than a 243, good. More muzzle energy ghan a 3030, well, who cares, I hunt close but not muzzle close! Why not compare apples to apples??? A rimless 357max really is a fine round, leave it to Winchester to screw it up!

If your platform works with a rim, the max is the way to go for anyone that loads their own ammo.

If your platform of choice does not work with a rim, the 350L, the 357AR (357 Max Rimless) or possibly even a 350L with "special" use of tolerances (max bore @ 0.357", max throat @ 0.359" min chamber length @ 1.71") can all be reasonable choices depending on preferences.

A 357AR, a std 350L and a "special" 350L will all give you performance very close to what the 357 Max has been delivering for decades. And I have yet to see any comment along the lines of "I gave up on my 357 Max as it just did not have enough terminal performance to get the job done".

[45&30-30]

I pulled this information from the Winchester Ammunition website and put it in a Word document for myself because it was in as many places as their are bullets and difficult to compare. I thought some others would like to see it all together. They did not have BC's available or not where I was looking. The SAAMI New Cartridge and Chamber drawing shows 145 grain FMJ at 2250fps based on a 16" test barrel. I see the Winchester XPR is a 22" barrel and possibly used for the figures below.

350 Legend
Case Length 1.71”
Bullet Diameter .357”

DISTANCE(YARDS) VELOCITY(fps) ENERGY(FT-LBS) TRAJ SHORT RANGE (IN)

USA FMJ 145 grain
muzzle 2350 1778
50 -1.5
100 1916 1182 0
200 1539 763 -8.1
300 1241 496 -31.2

Deer Season XP 150 grain
muzzle 2325 1800
50 -1.5
100 1968 1289 0
200 1647 903 -7.6
300 1373 628 -28.1

Power Max Bonded 160 grain
muzzle 2225 1759
50 -1.5
100 1843 1206 0
200 1509 809 -8.9
300 1243 548 -33.2

Super X Power Point 180 grain
muzzle 2100 1762
50 -1.5
100 1762 1240 0
200 1466 859 -9.8
300 1230 604 -36

Super Suppressed 265 grain
muzzle 1060 661
50 -1.5
100 990 577 0
200 936 515 -34.1
300 890 466 -107.4

[P Flados]

What states require the straight walled cartridge thing for deer? Seems like that is the only thing this cartridge really has going for it over several long established cartridges that do the same thing as well or better. Even in one of those states, seems like this combo would have a long way to go to equal the .450 Bushmaster bolt guns out there now.

Someone mentioned the .351 WSL, seems like this is a reincarnation of it, and in my experience using it, the .351 is a good woods deer gun, but there are many things out there I'd pick over it.

The 450 bushmaster is popular in the "straight wall" states as it is legal, has a decent range, and gets the job done.

I may be mistaken, but I am willing to bet that in reality it is a "less than optimum" choice for most hunting chores in states where bottle necks are allowed.

The 350L should meet the needs of "straight wall" hunters just as well as the 450. It will do it with a lot less recoil. In the straight wall states, having a choice of either 45 cal or 35 cal is a good thing. If you understand the real pros and cons between the two rounds and still want "bigger", then go with the 450. If you want to go the other direction, the 350L (or 357AR) may make you happier.

If you are not in the straight wall states, most buyers will have to "just want" a 35 or a 45 to pick either. Some people just like one vs. the other. Now they have a choice.

For cast boolit hunters, either 35 or 45 are probably pretty darn good choices when compared to anything smaller.

[SvenLindquist]

Hey guys can we get over the incorrect info about a less than .357" bullet diameter ?

Here is the official drawing.

https://i.imgur.com/bYA9CnG.jpg

And here is yet another link to the CORRECT info on the cartridge and NO you cannot make it out of 223s unless you are into unplanned excitement.

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/01/31/350-legend-specifications/

The CORRECT information is so easy to find "even a caveman can do it."

[richhodg66]

The 450 bushmaster is popular in the "straight wall" states as it is legal, has a decent range, and gets the job done.

I may be mistaken, but I am willing to bet that in reality it is a "less than optimum" choice for most hunting chores in states where bottle necks are allowed.

The 350L should meet the needs of "straight wall" hunters just as well as the 450. It will do it with a lot less recoil. In the straight wall states, having a choice of either 45 cal or 35 cal is a good thing. If you understand the real pros and cons between the two rounds and still want "bigger", then go with the 450. If you want to go the other direction, the 350L (or 357AR) may make you happier.

If you are not in the straight wall states, most buyers will have to "just want" a 35 or a 45 to pick either. Some people just like one vs. the other. Now they have a choice.

For cast boolit hunters, either 35 or 45 are probably pretty darn good choices when compared to anything smaller.

Fortunately, we don't have crazy laws about what's legal to hunt with here. All I hunt deer with is cast for the past ten years or so and it doesn't take a .35 or bigger to do it cleanly, 7mm and up have worked just fine for me.

I predict, despite the hype, will be a dead orphan in a few years.

[SvenLindquist]

It may just kill off the 300 B/O. I can see a subsonic 350gr VLD coming soon.


It’s the “fastest straight-walled hunting cartridge.” Here’s the velocities they provided:

145 grn FMJ – 2,350 fps
150 grn Deer Season XP – 2,325 fps
265 grn Super Suppressed – 1,060 fps
160 grn Power Max Bonded – 2,225 fps
180 grn Power-Point – 2,100 fps

These are @ AR pressure limits. Imagine it in a strong bolt or Ruger No. 1 ????

35 Remington: a 200 grain JSP at a MV of 2,080 fps and a ME of 1,921 ft. lbs. Hmmmmmm ?

[bikerbeans]

Hey guys can we get over the incorrect info about a less than .357" bullet diameter ?

Here is the official drawing.

https://i.imgur.com/bYA9CnG.jpg

And here is yet another link to the CORRECT info on the cartridge and NO you cannot make it out of 223s unless you are into unplanned excitement.

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/01/31/350-legend-specifications/

The CORRECT information is so easy to find "even a caveman can do it."

That drawing is for the cartridge, the chamber drawing says the groove is 0.355".

BB

[bikerbeans]

237291

[P Flados]

The SAAMI specs does include a 0.357" bullet and a 0.355" bore at first glance.

Then you need to look at tolerances.

Any bullet from 0.354" to 0.357" is "in spec" any bore between 0.355" and 0.357" is "in spec".

If Winchester wants to sell ammo that is what they call 0.357" to make it legal in Ohio, they can. If they sell ammo that is actually 0.357", I am sure it will work fine. However, given the spec, I am not convinced that every round they sell to Ohio customers will actually be a full 0.35700000".

I am not sure how Ohio enforcement folks will deal with this mess.

Their law was "stupid" and is the a big part of the problem here. It would have been so much better if it had simply been "35 caliber". Even for a 357 lever gun, remember that any bullet manufacturer can make bullets called 0.357" that can be just a tad under the nominal value. So are the enforcement guys supposed to carry a bullet puller and a micrometer? And what are they to do if they get 0.3568".

My bet is that the enforcement guys will take the easy out and go by the nominal bullet size for the ammo. The word nominal is really closer to "what the maker claims" than anything else. Since Winchester is claiming 0.357" they will let it slide.

However, there is always the chance that some anti hunting goofball or similar (if they are smart enough) will jump in and push the issue. If so, then Winchester can simply sell "certified Ohio legal" ammo that is at least 0.357". If they do this, then they will probably be "just over" spec on almost all of this "Ohio certified" ammo (they must have production tolerances).

Again, Winchester messed up with the SAAMI spec given the goofy Ohio law. The spec should have allowed 0.358" bullets so that they could have set their production tolerance range for hunting ammo at 0.357" to 0.358".

And given the need to meet the Ohio law, they should have been smart enough to have a plan (fat chance for Winchester). If smart, they could have been ready with a statement that clarifies that the spec allows the use of 0.355" bullets and barrels, but they plan to make barrels and ammo at 0.357" to ensure easy compliance with the laws of one of the target states for the round.

[SvenLindquist]

This paranoia is so amusing. EVERY review of the new cartridge, done by anyone who has actually had the ammo in hand, says .357".

Do you REALLY think game wardens are gonna carry mics to measure your ammo ?

Let us know when the first person using this cartridge is arrested.

My Grandpappy used to call this: "picking the flypoop out of the pepper".

Remember what Lincoln said about keeping silent ?

[jmort]

It may just kill off the 300 B/O. I can see a subsonic 350gr VLD coming soon.


It’s the “fastest straight-walled hunting cartridge.” Here’s the velocities they provided:

145 grn FMJ – 2,350 fps
150 grn Deer Season XP – 2,325 fps
265 grn Super Suppressed – 1,060 fps
160 grn Power Max Bonded – 2,225 fps
180 grn Power-Point – 2,100 fps

These are @ AR pressure limits. Imagine it in a strong bolt or Ruger No. 1 ????

35 Remington: a 200 grain JSP at a MV of 2,080 fps and a ME of 1,921 ft. lbs. Hmmmmmm ?

You said the .243 Winchester was going away, now you say the ACC 300 Blackout is going to be killed off. I say you are wrong on both counts in my opinion. I will hold my breath for the Ruger #1 in 350 Legend.

[SvenLindquist]

Yes I did, BUT I did not say when. Ammo is still available for many cartridges no longer chambered. (5mm RF, 300 Savage etc.) If you have one you can still shoot it.

If you are buying a new rifle, the 6mm CM is clearly a better choice than a 243. For hunting, the 350 L is far better than the 300 B/O. The 300 B/O is still a fine cartridge for suppressed use, BUT a 350L with a 300 gr VLD will be better.

FYI I own a 244 Rem, 3 6.5x55s, 3 300 H&Hs, a 7x61, a 7x57, a 300 Savage, a 41 Swiss, a 7.5x55 and even a 400 Whelen. Love em' all, BUT were I shopping for a NEW rifle for hunting, none of these chamberings would be on the list.

A Ruger No. 3 in 350L would be a sweet rig. Wonder if JES could take my 223 No 3 and make me one ?

[rking22]

If I were doing that #3 it would 357 max or rimless max, or just maybe invest in a reamer for a 35 223 with a cast bullet throat. Interesting thought right there.

[P Flados]

This paranoia is so amusing. EVERY review of the new cartridge, done by anyone who has actually had the ammo in hand, says .357".


At one point, I was thinking that the ammo would be 0.357" and the gun would be 0.355".

I really do not have a problem with a manufacturer choosing to make ammo a few mils above bore. However, any maker that chooses to do this really ought to have a good story that is readily available at the time the round hits the street. In this case, a reasonable basis could have been along the lines of "The 0.355" bore will work fine with even with all bullets available to reloaders and we wanted to make sure the factory ammo would be safe in a gun made from a 9mm blank or a 9mm AR barrel".

The 0.355" bore and 0.357" ammo may still turn out to be the case. However, on another forum I saw a post that someone did measure the exposed portion of some Winchester ammo and got 0.355".

And regardless of what they were thinking and/or doing before the gun was made public, they do have have something of a mess with Ohio. Some folks will be reluctant unless the issue is adequately explained and/or changes made. A wrong perception can hurt or kill a good round in short order. Just ask anyone that bought a 357 maximum when Ruger was still selling them.

[SvenLindquist]

Tempest in a teapot (as is all too common on the web). When you find anyone in OH agonizing over this non-event be sure to post it here.

Just for grins, I spent 30 minutes trolling the straight wall states hunting forums. Guess what ? The only panic to be found is HERE. Folks in those states are already ordering them. I'm sure they're all gonna be arrested and locked up for decades.

From the OH regs:

"Straight-walled cartridge rifles in the following calibers: All straight-walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50. Shotguns and straight-walled cartridge rifles can be loaded with no more than three shells in the chamber and magazine combined."

From American Hunter: "The bullet diameter is listed as .357″, and the rimless design will require the cartridge to headspace off the case mouth."

The only bigger waste of time than this assumption that somehow OH will not accept it IS ----- playing golf.

I await one of the Paniced to actually buy the ammo and put a mic on it.

[bikerbeans]

Just for grins, I spent 30 minutes trolling the straight wall states hunting forums.



Don't be modest, i am sure you have spent a lot more time than 30 minutes Trolling the web.

BB

[GARD72977]

The SAAMI specs does include a 0.357" bullet and a 0.355" bore at first glance.

Then you need to look at tolerances.

Any bullet from 0.354" to 0.357" is "in spec" any bore between 0.355" and 0.357" is "in spec".

If Winchester wants to sell ammo that is what they call 0.357" to make it legal in Ohio, they can. If they sell ammo that is actually 0.357", I am sure it will work fine. However, given the spec, I am not convinced that every round they sell to Ohio customers will actually be a full 0.35700000".

I am not sure how Ohio enforcement folks will deal with this mess.

Their law was "stupid" and is the a big part of the problem here. It would have been so much better if it had simply been "35 caliber". Even for a 357 lever gun, remember that any bullet manufacturer can make bullets called 0.357" that can be just a tad under the nominal value. So are the enforcement guys supposed to carry a bullet puller and a micrometer? And what are they to do if they get 0.3568".

My bet is that the enforcement guys will take the easy out and go by the nominal bullet size for the ammo. The word nominal is really closer to "what the maker claims" than anything else. Since Winchester is claiming 0.357" they will let it slide.

However, there is always the chance that some anti hunting goofball or similar (if they are smart enough) will jump in and push the issue. If so, then Winchester can simply sell "certified Ohio legal" ammo that is at least 0.357". If they do this, then they will probably be "just over" spec on almost all of this "Ohio certified" ammo (they must have production tolerances).

Again, Winchester messed up with the SAAMI spec given the goofy Ohio law. The spec should have allowed 0.358" bullets so that they could have set their production tolerance range for hunting ammo at 0.357" to 0.358".

And given the need to meet the Ohio law, they should have been smart enough to have a plan (fat chance for Winchester). If smart, they could have been ready with a statement that clarifies that the spec allows the use of 0.355" bullets and barrels, but they plan to make barrels and ammo at 0.357" to ensure easy compliance with the laws of one of the target states for the round.

I have hand loaded a few of these. The bullets we're .355

[Tonto]

At first this seemed exciting, an interesting round that us foks who like brass forming can enjoy....not the best ballistically but a fun do it yourself project. Seems this one went out of the way to screw folks out of that opportunity...."lots of $9.99 a boxfactory ammo..." I'm not holding my breath and will follow up on a wildcat that uses 358 bullets and 223 brass.

[Texas by God]

The .351WSL and the 9mm WinMag had a baby and......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[P Flados]

and will follow up on a wildcat that uses 358 bullets and 223 brass.

My 357AR is a proven round. AR-15 barrels have been made in batches, bolt action barrels can be made as one off items.

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/?forum=645266

It is probably about as reloading friendly as it gets for sending 0.358" bullets or boolits down range at 357 Maximum power level using 223 brass.

An even easier conversion choice is the "Mini-Mole" that is a spin off of the 357AR effort. The entire shoulder is cut off of a 223 for a 1.4" case. Think of it as a rimless 360 Dan Wesson. A big plus for this one in an AR is that standard 223 Pmags can be used. The bullet ogive stays just behind the side ribs.

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/minimole-357-8640174?&trail=25

When Moleman came up with the 357AR round, converting cases was the only choice.

[longbow]

I've been saying for some time that a .357 Max. rimless would be a nice round in a bolt gun or even single shot. I like bigger bore than .30 with cast boolits and with the availability of military 5.56 brass it seems like a no brainer for a relatively inexpensive wildcat that has decent poop but fairly easy on powder, lead and shoulder. Cheap or free brass and being able to cast .357" boolits from 125 gr. to 250 gr. or so is appealing... to me anyway.

Yes, I know in a single shot a rimmed .357 Max. works fine but brass is not readily available. I do have to wonder if a guy could use blown out and formed 5.56 brass in a .357 Max. chamber? Might take an extractor mod but as long as the brass is the right length to headspace on the case mouth why wouldn't it work?

Easier to feed rimless in a bolt gun though.

For those that have worked with fireforming is 0.012" too much to fireform 5.56 brass in a 350 Legend chamber? If not then I'd go that route. If so then I'd be inclined just to go with .357 Max. rimless.

I look at my .303 British brass after firing and it certainly swells up... I haven't mic'd full length sized or new then fireformed but now that I've said that I will! I'm curious.

Like Tonto, if brass can't or can't be easily formed from 5.56 brass then I'd be waiting to see just how popular this gets before buying one or chambering a barrel for it.

Longbow

[SvenLindquist]

Don't be modest, i am sure you have spent a lot more time than 30 minutes Trolling the web.

BB

Before you start typing, you might want to read what I said. Sadly your avatar is not accurate. (chuckle)

[SvenLindquist]

"I have hand loaded a few of these. The bullets we're .355". (were ?)

I'd love to know where you sourced those Winchester J bullets since they are not available for sale.

[SvenLindquist]

You know, sports' fans, this thread has been pirated by some who have no interest in the truth ---- rather they just wish to pursue a silly narrative about bullets that do not exist and a state regulation that will never be applied.

Dollar to a dime, the woods of Ohio will be filled with 350 Legends this fall and nobody will be cited.

If any of you trolls have any money to lose, bets are being taken.

PM me with all your information including photo ID to place bet. I'm done with this thread.

[P Flados]

Yes, I know in a single shot a rimmed .357 Max. works fine but brass is not readily available.

I do have to wonder if a guy could use blown out and formed 5.56 brass in a .357 Max. chamber? Might take an extractor mod but as long as the brass is the right length to headspace on the case mouth why wouldn't it work?

Easier to feed rimless in a bolt gun though.

For those that have worked with fireforming is 0.012" too much to fireform 5.56 brass in a 350 Legend chamber?
Longbow

357Max brass was hard to find for a while, but will probably never be hard to find again. Starline carries it now.

I have several 357 Max guns and one 357AR (Max Rimelss).

A Max chamber is tapered just in front of where max brass stops to avoid shaving 38 bullets. Years ago (before starline sold Max brass) I fired some converted 223 in a Max chamber TC with a 222 extractor. Ignition was not reliable.

If your gun choice does better with a rim, any interested reloader should just go with a Maximum chamber and maximum brass. Care & feeding is just so much easier and better.

Fireformed 223 will work fine as far as diameters. It will have a visible bulge but it will be no worse than many guns that bulge the brass due to loose chambers. A fraction of Fireformed brass may however end up too short.

[bikerbeans]

You know, sports' fans, this thread has been pirated by some who have no interest in the truth ---- rather they just wish to pursue a silly narrative about bullets that do not exist and a state regulation that will never be applied.

Dollar to a dime, the woods of Ohio will be filled with 350 Legends this fall and nobody will be cited.

If any of you trolls have any money to lose, bets are being taken.

PM me with all your information including photo ID to place bet. I'm done with this thread.

My guess is you are close to done with this site.

BB

[bikerbeans]

My apologies to the OP and this site.

BB

[P Flados]

Dollar to a dime, the woods of Ohio will be filled with 350 Legends this fall and nobody will be cited.



I totally agree.

I did note that CMMG is currently selling both uppers and guns. However, their prices are steep. Even though they are steep, the fastest and lowest cost option for now is probably their upper and a mag and a PSA (or equivalent) everything else. A more interesting wager may be something along the lines of will there be more Winchester 350L bolt guns or AR-15 based 350Ls hunting in the fall.

On the other hand, the discussions of the 350L ammo being only 0.355" where the law says 0.357" will not go away quickly if true.

Update: Looking for slow twist 9mm AR barrels, I stumbled on available 1:16 twist 350L AR-15 barrels for $280 at x-caliber.net.

[rking22]

I suspect a letter to Ohio DNR would clear that up quite easily. "Does the new Winchester 35 Legend meet the cartridge requirement for our state?" Simple yes or no, and I'm betting on a yes as well. Glad I don't have to worry about that nonsense!!!!

[oldblinddog]

I suspect a letter to Ohio DNR would clear that up quite easily. "Does the new Winchester 35 Legend meet the cartridge requirement for our state?" Simple yes or no, and I'm betting on a yes as well. Glad I don't have to worry about that nonsense!!!!

Why do the people of Ohio (or any other state) put up with that nonsense?

[jmort]

My guess is you are close to done with this site.

BB

So it would seem

[Jeff Michel]

Why do the people of Ohio (or any other state) put up with that nonsense?

It's appears to be more of a process of evolution. Ohio has always been a shotgun state, and since their limitations are set by bureaucrats by the ODNR who "may" be very knowledgeable about rifles but want to err to the side of caution. The laws have been becoming less restrictive as time passes and data is acquired. Slow progress is infinitely preferable to rushing in and saying "Go ahead and use what ever you please" If you over reach, how do you put the genie back into the bottle? There are a few places in Ohio you could use a high powered round but not as many as you might think and these would be down around the Ohio river. Where I live, you can't go a mile in any direction and not bisect a road or have a visual on a house or outbuilding. Most of the hunters that I'm acquainted with are just happy to have a rifle alternative. Four years ago, I was the only one that I knew that used a rifle and was scoffed at by by hunting friends. Last year, you would of had to put a bounty on a shotgun to find one. Sorry for the thread drift.

[SvenLindquist]

NY went thru the same evolution and many areas that did not allow rifles now do. Evolution was from smooth bore shotguns>rifled shotguns>handguns>rifles. Some cynics have suggested that the change was made just to get more money for the "General Fund". The GF is used to keep those on the dole voting Democrat, not to enhance hunting and fishing.

BTW, I just heard on ESPN that Ohio is equipping all game wardens with pin gauges to measure rifle bores.

[rockrat]

But can they teach them how to properly use them!!!:popcorn:

[SvenLindquist]

Doesn't matter. Once they see "350" on the barrel, the cuffs will go on.

[Jeff Michel]

Give the game warden's a bit of slack. I know several and they certainly aren't idiots. They receive training in what and what isn't legal. The law clearly states that the acceptable calibers are .357 to 50 caliber, straight walled case. Pretty cut and dried. If the .350 doesn't meet those parameters, it's still your responsibility to follow the laws and leave it at home until the current laws are modified yet again. I don't even think next years proposed Ohio hunting regulations have been decided on in it's final form. I'm happy to live in a state with a six deer limit even if they would make me harvest them with a cane pole.

[500Linebaughbuck]

this is from D&T Gunworks(David White).....



My sincerest apologies for the deletion of all the posts that were already here...

Reason being is that I just spent a couple of hours on the phone with guys from Winchester, and with all of the new things that I have learned today, misinformation was given, and some to the point that is would open up liabilities that I would not want to be responsible for...

So, with information that is now fact, and straight from the company who designed and developed the new 350 Legend cartridge, let's try this again...

Key Features of the 350 Legend Cartridge, as listed by Winchester -

More ENERGY than 30-30 Win, 300 Blackout and 223 Remington...

World’s fastest straight-walled cartridge...

Approximately 20% LESS RECOIL than the 243 Winchester...

20% more PENETRATION...

LESS RECOIL than the 450 Bushmaster...

Effective deer hunting ranges up to 250 yards, plus it delivers more energy than the 5.56mm, 300 Blackout or 30-30 Winchester...

This is a new case design and is NOT made from straight walled 223 Remington brass...

Compliant in states that allow straight wall cartridges for deer hunting...

2019 - 350 Legend Ammunition Offerings From Winchester:

350 Deer Season XP® 150 grain Extreme Point / 2,325 fps...

350 Super X® 180 grain Power-Point / 2,100 fps...

350 Hog Special 180 grain Power-Point / 2,100 fps...

350 USA White Box 145 grain FMJ Flat Nose / 2,350 fps...

350 Power Max Bonded® 160 grain Bonded JHP / 2,225 fps...

350 Super Suppressed™ 265 grain Open Tip / 1,060 fps...

The 350 Legend is rated at a s.a.a.m.i. maximum average pressure of 55,000 psi...

BORE/GROOVE is .346/.355........... Now knowing this information, I would NOT use .358 diameter bullets in a factory chambered rifle! Reason being is that the factory chamber is cut with a .357 diameter throat, then it tapers down to .355 (which is 9mm)...

Factory barrel's are 9mm and are NOT .357 or .358, but with the throating that Winchester is using, and using bullets of softer construction, those bullets can and do squeeze down in diameter to pass through the bore without issue!

New rifles or barrels offered through me, will have the correct 9mm bore and groove diameter and will be throated specifically for. 357 diameter bullets...

I should be able to tweak a few dimensions on the reamer to make it BETTER, since it is now s.a.a.m.i. spec'd reamer and the final dimensions have already been made...

Again, my apologies for the deletion of the other posts. Any questions, I will take them straight to the source and make sure that any and all answers are correct before posting..."

[Texas by God]

Funny that the old Remington .35 Rem 150 gr CoreLokt load - that was almost universally derided as a sorry choice for deer- has been brought back! There is so much hot air surrounding this cartridge it could fuel a balloon festival. 20% more penetration than what? Recoil like a 22-250? Which by the way has more energy than a 45-70! Assuming like bullet construction and 2300 fps a 150 gr 30-30 bullet will out penetrate a 150 gr .350 Legend bullet because of a thing called sectional density. If I hunted Ohio I'd use a .375Win, 38-55, .444 Marlin or the 45-70 and leave the GeeWhiz behind. Stupid claims; stupid rendering of something that could have been good(.357AR). Rant over; tip your waitstaff.

[jmort]

David White is a master gunsmith and then some. I will believe him before someone else.
I agree, there is so much hot air that this thread might just float away.

[SvenLindquist]

When the first arrest happens be sure and post the details here.

As David said the bullets are .357 and that's what counts just like an 8x60 that shoots a .323 bullet down a .318 bore.

[Shawlerbrook]

NYS went from shotgun ( smooth or rifled), pistol (35 cal. 4” bbl. or greater) or muzzleloader directly to rifle county by county. This was in the southern zone as the northern zone always allowed rifles. There was no evolution other than the county. They added a few counties year by year and now most of the state allows rifles.



NY went thru the same evolution and many areas that did not allow rifles now do. Evolution was from smooth bore shotguns>rifled shotguns>handguns>rifles. Some cynics have suggested that the change was made just to get more money for the "General Fund". The GF is used to keep those on the dole voting Democrat, not to enhance hunting and fishing.

BTW, I just heard on ESPN that Ohio is equipping all game wardens with pin gauges to measure rifle bores.

[jmort]

https://youtu.be/5akEgsZSfhg

[oldblinddog]

My point is the “legislation” of a non-existent cartridge design of dubious suitability for the intended purpose. Some of the government “designs” eliminate otherwise suitable cartridges, i.e. the .45-70 (it’s too long in some of these states). It is an attempt to make the past-time so hard to participate in that the participants quit (which is the actual desired result). It is nothing other than control of activity by government.

[richhodg66]

https://youtu.be/5akEgsZSfhg

Only comment I have s that's funny. Also, I really like the 5th Dimension, thanks for posting.

This silly cartridge is an answer looking for a question, it'll be an orphan before you know it, just like the WSM series of cartridges.

[pmer]

When I see this cartridge I can't help but think of moleman and all work that he did on the Max Rimless. Didn't Moleman break the trail on this idea and did all work to get it to the point of short run production. Even has put deer on ground to boot. The poor guy should at least get rifle and case of shells LOL.

Maybe the only thing Legendary about the 350 is a companies ability to pick low hanging fruit and change it just enough so the inventor gets left out of the picture.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Moleman and his 357ar , was and is a great version , use 223 brass , sweet , why have a 355 bore ? that there is a little clueless . So it has the mighty winchester name so what. I liked the comment about the two having a child and maybe the it has to be store bought types will love it , but I do not need a straight wall case to hunt here and I like the 300 blackout , have the 450 bushmaster and the 458 socom , so I would opt for molemans version , easy choice .

[Blammer]

lack of brass will be the death of this round.

get your collector guns now!

[WinchesterM1]

I really hope the 350 legend takes off...a 147 grn bullet going 2500 sounds familiar.... but it’s better in a 35 cal..

[SvenLindquist]

Actually, NY changed by DMU, not county AND it took years to evolve to allowing rifles into the DMUs outside of the Adirondacks.

Already several companies are chambering for the 350 Legend ---- far more than for the 35 Remington. I'm just waiting for some VDL bullets for subsonic use. Then I'll be buying a bbl for one of my ARs.

[Dan Cash]

Fortunately, we don't have crazy laws about what's legal to hunt with here. All I hunt deer with is cast for the past ten years or so and it doesn't take a .35 or bigger to do it cleanly, 7mm and up have worked just fine for me.

I predict, despite the hype, will be a dead orphan in a few years.

I think you are right as it is nothing but a .351 Self Loading cartridge without the benefit of being semi-rimmed to maintain head space. The .351 was obsolete by the end of WWll.

[GARD72977]

I don't understand all the negative comments. It's a great cast bullet cartridge and it's going to be chambered in many bolt guns. If you don't like it don't buy it. Start a new thread for all the whining..........

[Loudenboomer]

I always liked the .351 SLR. Most of us old enough to remember the 5th Dimension Have seen many of these 350 legend type pan flashes. What harm is there in keeping an open mind and watch how far this goes. The 5th Dimension didn't last that long but :holysheep Mairlyn McCoo was really something special! :p

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
It's all about making the new wiz-bang cartridge and getting sales. I like that. Some of the new stuff is actually serviceable.
Personally I will wait for a 40 something. A 401 Winchester was never noted as being a minimal deer cartridge under 100 yards. Yes we have one of those beast heavy Model 1910 Winchesters. With a 250 grain cast GC slug I would take on any East ILLinois corn cruncher.
But alas those individuals that call the shots have not yet called a centerfire rifle "legal".
But I cannot gripe. I hunt river bottoms and a bow and arrow still get what I need done.

Mike in Peru

[longbow]

Even though I don't own one I have always though .357 Max. in a rifle would be a nice cartridge ~ big enough but not too big! It'll get most jobs done and isn't too hard on powder, lead or shoulder plus there are a zillion... okay, a zillion and a half boolit moulds for .357" groove.

The thought of a rimless .357 Max. also appeals to me since brass is made from cheap and readily available and not going anywhere soon .223/5.56 brass and would suit a bolt gun nicely. Cheap, easy to get and versatile are always good things in my opinion.

Why Winchester decided to make the 350 Legend a little (just a bit) larger in the body is anyone's guess. Brass sales? If brass can be made from .223/5.56 even if it bulges a bit then that's fine by me but if that is a no go then I would stick with a .357 Max. rimless... if I ever build a gun.

Not sure what the negativity is all about either. It isn't revolutionary by any means but it appears to me to be a nice little cartridge for cast boolits. As for not being "enough", it is certainly more than .357 mag. which seems to make a lot of people happy.

300 BO makes a lot of people happy too but it doesn't do anything for me. I like bigger bore and .357" is about the minimum

Me, I like straight walled cartridges. I don't really know why but I do. I'd like a 444 Rimless too... go figure!

Different strokes!

Longbow

[P Flados]

Longbow,

If you want a bolt gun to shoot 0.357" boolits with converted 223 brass, the MDWS guys can probably make you a barrel in short order using the 357AR reamer.

You will be able to choose case length.

In my mind, the "Rimless max" sticks with the Max length, 1.60".

Depending on maximum OAL for your magazine, longer could be better. A 1.69" or so chamber would give a little more powder capacity and would mean less trimming needed after 223 conversions.

If you want a little more performance, you could go for 1.79" but you would have to use Starline 223 basic brass.

For anyone that wants a least effort solution, the "Mini Mole" just cuts off the 223 just before the shoulder and gives you case closer to a Rimless 360 Dan Wesson.

I have a more typical AR-15 based 357AR built with a MDWS barrel with PSA parts. If I did not have this gun and wanted to build a bolt action, the 1.69" long case would be real tempting.

Second choice might be to get a gun than can handle a 2.5" or so OAL, but drop down to the Mini Mole case length and see what kind of performance is available with a long throat. Starting short would allow for a real simple chamber re-cut to get better performance if not satisfied at first.

[richhodg66]

I think you are right as it is nothing but a .351 Self Loading cartridge without the benefit of being semi-rimmed to maintain head space. The .351 was obsolete by the end of WWll.

May be "obsolete, doesn't change the fact that it is still quite effective for what it was designed to do; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?317823-351-wsl
Both of those does dropped where they stood. I like the 1907 for the cool factor and because I'm a gun nut, had I been practical about it, I have much better things to hunt deer with.

I don't deny that this newfangled thing will do fine on deer at woods ranges, just think there are things that will do it a lot better that are already long and established. The ONLY thing this proves useful for is the places where a guy has to follow a stupid law, and even for them, seems there are better alternatives already established.

[Nrut]

I don't understand all the negative comments. It's a great cast bullet cartridge and it's going to be chambered in many bolt guns. If you don't like it don't buy it. Start a new thread for all the whining..........
Yep, the whining confounds me as the lil' whiners aren't going to be buying a rifle chambered for this round anyway..
Yet they persist..
It gets tiresome..
[smilie=p:

[Moleman-]

I have hand loaded a few of these. The bullets we're .355

What did the water capacity turn out to be? It seems like from the load data released by Win that there would still be some gains for a hand loader.

[richhodg66]

Yep, the whining confounds me as the lil' whiners aren't going to be buying a rifle chambered for this round anyway..
Yet they persist..
It gets tiresome..
[smilie=p:

So nobody should have or voice a different opinion from yours? Last I checked, this is a discussion forum.

[SvenLindquist]

Nrut: Whining is part of all internet blogs. Those who can't have whine. Those who don't know whine. Those who can't afford whine. Those who are jealous whine. Those who think they are experts whine. Those who have OCD issues whine. Those who believe having a high post count makes them superior whine.

Being a "keyboard warrior" is a full time job, so cut them a break.

You'll notice that:
1. None of them have broken down a cartridge and measured the bullet as would sink the .355 narrative.
2. None of them have called any state to find out the truth as then they would have to put a sock in it.

This thread will not die until the hunting season starts, there are lots of 350 Legends afield and nobody get arrested.

We can hope for 50 pages, can't we ?

[jmort]

So nobody should have or voice a different opinion from yours? Last I checked, this is a discussion forum.

The discussion has been interesting. I am not seeing the whining. Lot of interesting fact. But, it was nice of the member who has been here three weeks to set us all straight.

[pmer]

Does anyone know what it has for a barrel extension? Will it be able to feed wfn or lfn boolits?

[cwlongshot]

The discussion has been interesting. I am not seeing the whining. Lot of interesting fact. But, it was nice of the member who has been here three weeks to set us all straight.

[smilie=l:

Spot on...

CW

[dverna]

Winchester could screw up the Lord's prayer.

What kind of genie-*** would not use the .223 as a parent case and .358 bore?

[jmort]

Good question

[Shawlerbrook]

It was by counties. Here in DMU 7M Chenango County was rifle while Madison County was still shotgun for a few years at the beginning. I worked for the NYSDEC for 32 years. Yes, it did take a few years.


Actually, NY changed by DMU, not county AND it took years to evolve to allowing rifles into the DMUs outside of the Adirondacks.

Already several companies are chambering for the 350 Legend ---- far more than for the 35 Remington. I'm just waiting for some VDL bullets for subsonic use. Then I'll be buying a bbl for one of my ARs.

[clearwater]

Meh- When is this country going to throw out court cases brought by idiots. Not seeing how one could possibly chamber a 357-223, in a smaller caliber, even in a blackout.

Maybe someone should bring out some rifles and ammo in a rimless 375 Supermag. Probably even more oomph than a 357 bullet and there are already bullets from the old 375 win. out there that should work.

[rking22]

I suspect Winchester wanted the tapered chamber for the "hull chuckers", that will make up the bulk of their potential market. That pressure could make extraction interesting in gas guns. Just guessing, you know.
The blackout is much more concern fitting in a 223 chamber, ain't no way a 35 cal on a full length 223 case gonna chamber!

[SvenLindquist]

Any arrests yet ? I don't want to miss that.

[Texas by God]

Any arrests yet ? I don't want to miss that.Are you still whining about that? How do you like your .350 Legend so far? Surely you have several by now. You'll have to wait till hunting season for the answer to your latest troll question with all due respect.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[SvenLindquist]

"Whining" ? No I'm laughing that anyone would actually believe that a major state G&F department would do anything to endanger its income by arresting hunters for a .355 bore diameter. ALL the rust belt states need every dime they can get to support the vast underclass and unfunded state pensions. Wonder why none of the alarmists have contacted the "straight case" G&F departments for an answer ? Oh yeah, no more fodder to raise their post counts. (chuckle)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkfMrXCfIIg

[richhodg66]

Are you still whining about that? How do you like your .350 Legend so far? Surely you have several by now. You'll have to wait till hunting season for the answer to your latest troll question with all due respect.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Don't sweat it, man. *******s like this guy come and go, won't be long before he gets himself banned.

[jmort]

Don't sweat it, man. *******s like this guy come and go, won't be long before he gets himself banned.

So it would seem. We have been graced with this know-it-all for three weeks.

[rking22]

I see there is a “review” of this round on all outdoor. Says 11.? Inches of penatration at 200 yards, like that’s good. Really would like to see someone on here post actual first hand results. The add hype is nonesense marketing stuff.

[dverna]

Sven,

You have been here for a month and have 187 posts to date. If you last as long as richhodg66, you will have about 20,000 unless you spend more time reading and thinking. IMHO you will get more out of this site by changing your approach. But the choice is yours.

BTW, I am not defending richhodg66. I do not know him and he needs no support from me. Just addressing your comment on his post count. I thought it would be useful to put it in perspective. Self awareness is a good thing before making judgements on others.

[dverna]

I see there is a “review” of this round on all outdoor. Says 11.? Inches of penatration at 200 yards, like that’s good. Really would like to see someone on here post actual first hand results. The add hype is nonesense marketing stuff.

A cursory look at the ballistics shows it about the same as the old .35 Remington (factory loadings which IIRC are limited to 35k PSI). So will perform the same as a .35 Remington with the same bullets. Penetration will be affected by bullet design and weight.

[mnewcomb59]

I see there is a “review” of this round on all outdoor. Says 11.? Inches of penatration at 200 yards, like that’s good. Really would like to see someone on here post actual first hand results. The add hype is nonesense marketing stuff.

I saw that too. My older buddy plans on getting one and says 150 grain bullets kill deer fine in his 308. I tried to explain sectional density and how that is half the penetration of 380 ball, how 9mm and 45 hollow points from 3" pocket pistol barrels penetrate 1.5x deeper and how the 30-30 goes 2x deeper. Didn't phase him. Winchester is misleading people and they will all be haters after opening day and this cartridge just might die off this year.

I explained how I shot 3 deer with 140 gr Ranch Dogs in the 357 at 2100 fps. 2-2-96 alloy mushroomed out to 66 cal and stopped in the 3rd milk jug w 100% weight retention. 3 jugs is roughly 12" gel penetration. This alloy made a fist sized hole in the first lung, dime sized in the second lung, and didn't even crack a rib on the far side. Deer ran over 200 yards.

Same load with 1-4-95 alloy sloughs the nose after 50 cal expansion, and retains 90% weight and penetrates 5 milk jugs. This is roughly 20" gel penetration. Coincidentally, my 30-30 Core Lokts penetrate the same. What does that tell you? Probably a pretty good penetration depth to have for deer since we all know how that works as a "calibration" The two deer hit went less than 50 yards with complete penetration and silver dollar sized hole through both lungs and both sides of hide.

If I, some hobby bullet caster, can tweak penetration of a bullet from 12" gel all the way up to 20", what the hell is Winchester doing selling an 11.7" penetration bullet and calling it a deer bullet? 9mm HOLLOW POINTS penetrate 14-16"

I told my buddy that he should only get the 180 grain load if he buys ammo but I haven't convinced him yet. He is gonna be really disappointed when he shoots deer and they all run a half mile with little blood trail from a soft, high speed, low SD bullet.

[Texas by God]

I didn't see it at the gun show in Ft Worth today- too new perhaps.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[500Linebaughbuck]

I saw that too. My older buddy plans on getting one and says 150 grain bullets kill deer fine in his 308. I tried to explain sectional density and how that is half the penetration of 380 ball, how 9mm and 45 hollow points from 3" pocket pistol barrels penetrate 1.5x deeper and how the 30-30 goes 2x deeper. Didn't phase him. Winchester is misleading people and they will all be haters after opening day and this cartridge just might die off this year.

I explained how I shot 3 deer with 140 gr Ranch Dogs in the 357 at 2100 fps. 2-2-96 alloy mushroomed out to 66 cal and stopped in the 3rd milk jug w 100% weight retention. 3 jugs is roughly 12" gel penetration. This alloy made a fist sized hole in the first lung, dime sized in the second lung, and didn't even crack a rib on the far side. Deer ran over 200 yards.

Same load with 1-4-95 alloy sloughs the nose after 50 cal expansion, and retains 90% weight and penetrates 5 milk jugs. This is roughly 20" gel penetration. Coincidentally, my 30-30 Core Lokts penetrate the same. What does that tell you? Probably a pretty good penetration depth to have for deer since we all know how that works as a "calibration" The two deer hit went less than 50 yards with complete penetration and silver dollar sized hole through both lungs and both sides of hide.

If I, some hobby bullet caster, can tweak penetration of a bullet from 12" gel all the way up to 20", what the hell is Winchester doing selling an 11.7" penetration bullet and calling it a deer bullet? 9mm HOLLOW POINTS penetrate 14-16"

I told my buddy that he should only get the 180 grain load if he buys ammo but I haven't convinced him yet. He is gonna be really disappointed when he shoots deer and they all run a half mile with little blood trail from a soft, high speed, low SD bullet.


i haven't done a penetration test but a 10 lbs coww and a 1/4 lb of tin does penetrate deer. i can use my 30-40 krag(165gr ranch dog/1900fps) and 444 marlin(275gr - 300gr/1800fps - 1600fps) with that alloy. my furthest shot was around 190-200 yards(30-40 krag) but it usually goes 50 yards and less. i shot a 6pt and 2 does(444 marlin/300gr fn gc with 2400), under 50 yards and they were thru-n-thru. the deer(s) only went about 20-25 yards after the shot. i shot all three behind the shoulder and it did not touch the shoulder on the other side, but it did touch ribs!!! i'm guessing that the exit wound was around 1 1/2 - 1 3/4", the entrance wound was about 1/2"+/-.

i hope your buddy doesn't have to chase deer. but hoping doesn't change anything.

[P Flados]

Most experienced boolit hunters think in terms of through & through with with exit holes at least 3x boolit size.

Planning for a short run after the hit is also just part of this game.

If people use a good alloy boolit, this gun should work fine.

On the other hand, most use of this gun for now will be with factory ammo.

J Word hunters tend to want higher impact velocities with significant bullet expansion to improve chances for DRT or really short runs.

In recent years, J Word terminal performance has improved with better chances for desired expansion while improving weight retention for assured penetration.

The 35 Remington got its reputation in the days before these improved J Words were common. It was considered a good reliable gun at to around 150 yards. This is fine for most hunting in the eastern half of the US.

If Winchester is making really good hunting bullets that are properly tuned to the 350L, the new gun will easily extend the effective range as far as terminal performance. Is there any reason to think that the new ammo will not have better bullets than the ammo that was sold for the 35 Remington?

Now the gun will not be "flat shooting" and it will have issues with wind drift. However, the guys in the straight wall states have nothing that is "flatter" or less subject to wind drift.

I really do not understand why anyone thinks the gun will not be good enough for straight wall states or for hunters that never plan for greater than 100 yard shots. For those that are saying it will not be effective for it intended use, can you provide a reason for your claim.

Yes, there are many bottleneck rounds that are much better when you expect shots at more than 100 yards. Nobody expects this gun to be a big seller where hunters can use a bottleneck rounds and longer shots are common. Lets not even make a comparison between these cases.

[Texas by God]

Runoffs can be reduced by aiming for the front shoulder joint instead of the classic behind the shoulder shot. Hard to run far with a busted front axle IME.

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[jmort]

?????????

[richhodg66]

Nobody said it wouldn't kill a deer.

Nobody said Winchester is lying, people rightfully state that they are hyping something that is no better for the stated purpose than things that already exist.

You really are a jerk. Why don't you find another place to troll?

[GARD72977]

Nobody said it wouldn't kill a deer.

Nobody said Winchester is lying, people rightfully state that they are hyping something that is no better for the stated purpose than things that already exist.

You really are a jerk. Why don't you find another place to troll?

Really no new cartridges are needed. At this point we are only filling nitches.

[Texas by God]

CVS called; they want you to know your prescription has been ready for weeks. Winchester called; they said you’re second in line to get one; behind some guy named Trump. I’ve fought bullies; never been one. I just wish you had something to offer other than your superiority complex. You are acting the same on two other forums as well. I don’t get it or care to. Bye.

[mnewcomb59]

If Winchester is making really good hunting bullets that are properly tuned to the 350L, the new gun will easily extend the effective range as far as terminal performance. Is there any reason to think that the new ammo will not have better bullets than the ammo that was sold for the 35 Remington?

Now the gun will not be "flat shooting" and it will have issues with wind drift. However, the guys in the straight wall states have nothing that is "flatter" or less subject to wind drift.

I really do not understand why anyone thinks the gun will not be good enough for straight wall states or for hunters that never plan for greater than 100 yard shots. For those that are saying it will not be effective for it intended use, can you provide a reason for your claim.



150 grains in 35 cal is the equivalent to 90-100 gr 30 cal bullets. Sectional density is the word. I related my penetration stories with a 12" gel penetration bullet vs a 20" gel penetration bullet. Winchester is misleading people by calling 11.7 inches penetration a deer bullet when FBI won't even allow that shallow of of penetration in a duty bullet. 11.7" after the bullet has slowed down 500 fps at 200 yards. Up close I bet that little bullet will penetrate 9" when its high velocity makes it fragment more.

11.7 inches in gel will translate to never even cracking the offside ribs. Big wound in one lung, tiny hole in second lung and deer can run for awhile because one lung is nearly intact. 140 gr 357 at 2100 fps is **** close to this 350 Legend. When I used a 12" penetration bullet the wound was so small in the second lung and the deer went over 200 yards. Same bullet with alloy change took it from 12" penetration up to 20", which is how deep several expanding 30-30 rounds go. Had exit wounds and short tracking jobs since. Even in the little 357 most guys on here like heavy bullets like 180s. I have since gone up in bullet weight and I am working down in softness again to find that magic 5-6 milk jug penetration range. Every popular deer caliber except the 243 has 20-24" gel penetration with its basic cup and core deer bullet, or 5-6 milk jugs. 30-06, 35 rem, 270- they all penetrate the same. Why does Winchester not just tweak their 150 grain Legend bullet to penetrate the same as all the successful rounds?
-

[P Flados]

The 150 gr is on the "light" side, but consider it is only 8 gr lighter than the standard "heavy" for a 357 magnum. And again, look at the actual Winchester words describing the round: "deliver massive downrange energy transfer with improved penetration from a modern straight-walled cartridge. The oversized impact diameter of the Extreme Point® bullet offers bigger impact trauma for larger wound cavities and faster knockdown".

For a lung shot with the 150 gr, I would expect more penetration than in gel. Lungs are low density. With the 150 gr, the real challenge will be good penetration after something like a shoulder hit and generally not over expanding at close range. If the bullet is built right, it should be ok.

I do agree that at first glance the 150 gr seemed less likely to be effective at long range. However, at 200 yards they say it still has 1647 fps. Again, this is a whole lot more than a 357 revolver at 15 yards.

I agree that for longer shots, the 180 gr just sounds better.

For the 180, the bullet will need to have adequate expansion at longer ranges (and Winchester is claiming 250 yards). This is a big part of where the 35 Remington had issues that resulted in perceived range limitations.

For any 350L, the bigger range limitation will be getting good hits. This is the other item the probably "limited" the 35 Remington.

Effective shots at anything over 150 yards will require a better than average shooter. The hunter will need to know actual range to target given how fast it will be dropping. If there is any wind to speak of, the hunter will also need to compensate for drift. Drift will get big fast.

With the drop and drift issues, most decent hunters will consider the gun to be reliable at much less than 250 yards just because of reduced assurance for a good hit. I really expect most "poor performance issues" will be bad hits much more than anything else.

Really not that much difference than other "deer guns" being marketed today.

[mnewcomb59]

With the main load that they are marketing for deer and flattest shooting blah blah, it only has has half the penetration of any other deer load you have ever heard of.

The basic deer rifles work because they have enough penetration for deer. They don't have twice the penetration needed, they just have "enough". If you cut "enough" in half, now you have a varmint rifle. Your basic deer rifles need tougher bullets for elk because they have just enough for deer. Why would you go cutting your "just enough" in half?

I have shot a similar round (357 rifle) with the exact same penetration depth in gel (12"), and it barely made it into the second lung of a 150 pound doe. There is a reason the FBI wants 18" gel penetration for 200 pound animals.

"The 150 gr is on the "light" side, but consider it is only 8 gr lighter than the standard "heavy" for a 357 magnum." In a handgun where they don't mushroom too far, 158 JSP penetrate 30" and 158 xtps penetrate 20" and my Lee 158-rf penetrates 34". All significantly more than 9-11.7" like Winchester is getting with this so-called deer bullet. Like I said - about half the penetration of any other deer load you have ever heard of.

I hope the round lasts and more rifles are produced, especially a Fudd approved walnut semi auto for deer drives. As is, the 180-200 JSP should be awesome for deer, which is the bottom of what most deer class 35 bullets weigh that are designed for the high impact speeds of rifles.

[Mag357]

So if the 357 AR( rim less) and the 350L are so close to being the same way didn't that just capitalize on 357AR (rim less)?

[Texas by God]

So if the 357 AR( rim less) and the 350L are so close to being the same way didn't that just capitalize on 357AR (rim less)?That may be up there with why didn't Remington fast twist the .244 ?(someday)

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[P Flados]

So if the 357 AR( rim less) and the 350L are so close to being the same way didn't that just capitalize on 357AR (rim less)?

Winchester did not introduce this round as an optimum product for shooters and hunters. They are in business to sell guns and ammo. The guns will sell with most being to non-reloaders in the straight wall states.

[Mag357]

So one more thing just pop up in my head with those two cartridges ( 357ar/350l) is that would you be able to intercamber them like 38sp and the 357 mag I know there is a.002 here and .005 there (be just like fire froming) if they are in deed straight wall cases?

[P Flados]

So one more thing just pop up in my head with those two cartridges ( 357ar/350l) is that would you be able to intercamber them like 38sp and the 357 mag I know there is a.002 here and .005 there (be just like fire froming) if they are in deed straight wall cases?

They headspace on the case mouth and there is way too much case length difference, 1.60" for the 357AR, 1.71" for the 350L.

Although there is a big case length difference, in an AR there will be negligible performance difference with 180s and 200s given the OAL limitation of the magazine.

The extra 350L case length will help AR shooters that want to go with bullets under 180 gr (such as the 150 gr Winchester round that is being promoting for deer hunting).

The extra case 350L length will help single shots and most bolt guns

[Good Cheer]

This could make a really fun jackrabbit shooter.

[dverna]

This could make a really fun jackrabbit shooter.

Not if cases cannot be made from .223 brass.

[modified5]

I’ve been kicking around adding a “new” .35 caliber to the arsenal myself.
But I’m thinking more along the lines of a 38-40 in an 1873.
I don’t see this new one finding a home in my safe.

[Texas by God]

I still haven't seen any evidence of it in any gun store around here. And I'm ok with that. The .357AR would have been the better choice for Winchester.

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[ATCDoktor]

Targetsports USA has 145 grain FMJ 350 Legend ammo in stock for 50 cents a round delivered (if you buy 200 rounds at a time).

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/winchester-350-legend-145-grain-full-metal-jacket-usa3501-p-109110.aspx

[Ramjet-SS]

I know there is allot of yea or nay on this thread. But to me it’s great the companies are trying to do something “new” it keeps things fresh and creates opportunity. Ars are not for everyone but I frankly like all guns and platforms. I may not own them or even care for them all but they all are part of the big picture and interest me and because all guns are under attack from people who hate them I will not give them fodder.

This round has some virtues one is that it’s already setup for the use of cast boolit. It has the utility to be used in a wide variety of platforms. It’s new the mfg are at least for now are making it so it’s available. Allows use in this states requiring straight walled cases. Has better ballistics than the famous 357 mag but falls short of the 357 max.

Let’s just enjoy the fact the ammo and gun mfg are not sitting in their hind ends and are trying...

[cwlongshot]

The advertised ballostics for the 350 are well in the Maxis wheel house.

The maxi is a lil shorter and run at less pressure. The 350 “should” beat it at every level. “On paper”

CW

https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/0274117C-571B-41CA-BD19-F324340CB768_zpslcat99s6.jpeg

[P Flados]

Has better ballistics than the famous 357 mag but falls short of the 357 max.


In a similar gun with the same barrel length, the 350L should do slightly better than the 357 Max. The 350L case does have more just a little more capacity and the 350L allowed pressure is not less than most consider appropriate for the 357 Max.

There is a real advantage for the max in single shots and revolvers where the rim helps. For a platform where rimless works better, either the 357AR or the 350L are better choices.

[Blammer]

somebody is going to make a brass swage die so you can swage 223 into the 350 legend... any takers?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

somebody is going to make a brass swage die so you can swage 223 into the 350 legend... any takers?

Or, could you kiss the 350 chamber with a reamer that would allow for the use of 223 brass?

Might take some work, but there will be opportunity for us cast booliteers with the 350. I won't be in the lead, but I will be watching.

[cwlongshot]

I think you’ve got it a little backwards the 350 is “fatter” at the base and the 223.

[Ramjet-SS]

In a similar gun with the same barrel length, the 350L should do slightly better than the 357 Max. The 350L case does have more just a little more capacity and the 350L allowed pressure is not less than most consider appropriate for the 357 Max.

There is a real advantage for the max in single shots and revolvers where the rim helps. For a platform where rimless works better, either the 357AR or the 350L are better choices.

I should have clarified yes hand loaders heavy cast boolits. I believe most will opt for Encore or reamed out Henry Single shots, bolt action or as you said revolvers like the BFR etc. But like I said I like them all. as far weather they will take deer with a 150 grain bullet depends on the projectile. Many a deer have been taken cleanly with a 220:Swift and a 55 grain X-Bullet. But shot placement is the key to any successful harvest of game.

[P Flados]

I totally agree about the projectile.

For the factory deer load, there are some worries about less than desired penetration. Other than this concern, the pointy plastic tip ammo has a good BC and good velocities at all reasonable ranges.

I am betting it will work fine, but only time will tell.

[P Flados]

somebody is going to make a brass swage die so you can swage 223 into the 350 legend... any takers?

The necking up is pretty simple. One or two annealing steps will reduce splitting and improve case life.

Expanding the body to just in front of the web is a little more tricky, but not a big deal. I know because I have been converting 223 to 357AR including steps to mechanically expand the body to just forward of the web.

I do not have a 350L sizer die, so I can only estimate the resultant length of a converted case. I am thinking a fully converted 223 will come up 0.020" short of the Spec minimum. Not good for a round that headspaces on the mouth.

Stretching brass is not impossible but is more involved.

[Willbird]

The negativity is amusing :-). I ordered a CMMG barrel from Brownells, and a couple boxes of factory ammo. I am going to sell my 357 AR MDWS barrel and the 144 Starline 223 basic cases that I have not used yet.

Bottom line buying brass is a lot simpler than screwing around making brass.

The Starline brass is $.36 per case then some work to end up with 357 AR
The WW factory ammo is $.44 ($.50 shipped)a round for FMJ, fire it and you have once fired brass, and you got to shoot it too :-).

I'm sure a cast and PC bullet of some dia between .357 and .355 will work fine.

Bill

[cwlongshot]

Thats my thinkin too Bill. (Maybe I mentioned on MSR)

I was shootin my ruger yesterday. Its shootin better and better just like my other Rugers! I haven't put paper out past 100 but up too I can hit 1.25 pasters any time I try and targets of opportunity out to 250 have seen more impacts than misses. Thats just factory!!

I have loaded one box of cast 170g Keith with 1680. It shot about 2” @ 50 so not a Great load. I loaded a box with a 158 xtp and it shot about same as the FMJ Maybe a lil better.

[Willbird]

These bullets here may work well even though a bit on the light side.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/9mm-356-125-gr-hap-box-of-500#!/

Looking at 9mm bullets which have drawn jackets vs plated.

[MT Chambers]

The velocities and penetration keep going up and up, other than the AR crowd I don't see this round working out, there are many better .358 rounds like the .35Rem., my fav. the .356 Win., here on the prairie we don't have such "straight case" limitations and if we did, most would use the .444 or the 45/70.

[Willbird]

We can use the 444 or the 45/70...but we like options :-). I’m sure it will sell like hot cakes in the states where it fills a legality niche. And I bet they sell a lot in other states too. The 265 grain subsonic will appeal to folks who already own a 9mm muzzle can too.

[Texas by God]

They should have used a 6.8 SPC case necked up to 10 mm.
They could have called it the 400 Legend [emoji16]

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[Willbird]

They may yet :-).

Bill

[cwlongshot]

they should have used a 6.8 spc case necked up to 10 mm.
They could have called it the 400 legend [emoji16]

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now your talkin!!!

[dverna]

The velocities and penetration keep going up and up, other than the AR crowd I don't see this round working out, there are many better .358 rounds like the .35Rem., my fav. the .356 Win., here on the prairie we don't have such "straight case" limitations and if we did, most would use the .444 or the 45/70.

I can see it appealing to smaller hunters who want less recoil and must use a straight walled cases. Let’s face it, most hunters are not reloaders and only a tiny fraction cast.

It holds no attraction for me. If I wanted a .35 caliber hunting gun, I would look for a .358 Win., or buy a Savage in .308 and have it converted. Thought about having one of my .30/30’s rebored to .35/30 by JES but never could justify it.

[Willbird]

If I was going to use a bottle necked case it would be a 358 Yeti which fits in AR15 platform too. 180 grain bullets at 2600fps from 16" barrel, 200 grain bullets 2500fps again from a 16" barrel.

Not limited to flat point bullets either.

Bill

[Willbird]

CMMG barrel and WW ammo arrived today. Looded ammo drops right into chamber, plunk.

Used gage pins, gently :-)....to measure chamber. Seems like it has a .358" throat.

Case mouth at front of chamber is .380", chamber dia at rear end is .391

Loaded round measures .3775" over bullet. .357" bullets might indeed be a tight fit.

.098" gas port.

CMMG barrel, 1/16 twist.

Bore and groove might be a touch on the rough side but I am spoiled by Shilen, Hart, and PacNor barrels.

Will assemble tomorrow.

Bill

[Willbird]

Fired 20 rounds, a 3 shot group to check zero, three 5 shot groups, and the last 2 rounds. Function was 100% with a modified 10 round PMAG. 5 shot groups were around 3" at 75 yards. Another gift from Winchester is lightly crimped in primers. I did try a partial resize and expand with M die, but the Fury 180 is really too long for this round so I just fired the 1 round I was working on.

[cwlongshot]

So far I have fired 158xtp, 170 Keith sized 358 and a 190 wfn sized 358 and Lee358-158 sized 358.

Accuracy needs to be determined as I haven’t fired enough yet. The xtps had 6-7 rounds and went into a fat 1” 50 yard group.

I went and ordered LEE dies. I was excited to see just a seater offered. But no... its “coming soon”...

CW

[Blammer]

so 358 bullet dia. :)

[Willbird]

so 358 bullet dia. :)

I have not seated any .358 into cases yet. We shall see :-).

The Hornady 044130 looks like it might work for bullet seating...it is listed as working for 35 remington.

Hornady 397116 is the FTX specific seating stem for that die.

[Willbird]

Did seat and fire some .357 today, they fit the chamber about like they would if they were size for size with no neck clearance.

Bill

[trapper9260]

Not long ago I was down at my gunsmith to see him and he show me the round and it was something to see, he told me it was made for the states that can only use straight wall.He show me a rifle that is a bolt for his brother's son he got. He told me he has people talk with him about AR's for that round and he is work on build them for them. Sound like there is many wants them in AR. He said he can build a AR cheaper then just buy the rifle. He did told me if I remember right that the round have a slit taper.

[Willbird]

Not long ago I was down at my gunsmith to see him and he show me the round and it was something to see, he told me it was made for the states that can only use straight wall.He show me a rifle that is a bolt for his brother's son he got. He told me he has people talk with him about AR's for that round and he is work on build them for them. Sound like there is many wants them in AR. He said he can build a AR cheaper then just buy the rifle. He did told me if I remember right that the round have a slit taper.

Yes it does have a slight taper. .390" at the base, .379" at the case mouth.

Bill

[Daryl]

Hi Everyone,

I'm glad I came across this tread. I'll be glad to share my experience with the 350 Legend.

I've loaded and shot probably over 500 rounds so far in multiple ARs. Sorry - no boolits so far.

On cases, yes, go with Starline. SAAMI specs on the case length are narrow 1.7000 to 1.710". I first shot about 200 rounds of WIN and used that brass. Started having case separations. On detailed analysis, I started seeing that the majority of the brass is less than 1.700. Some were even under 1.690". So, that creates the excess headspace responsible for the separations. Plus, I suspect the brass is a different alloy. In almost all of the brass, I can see evidence of the case stretch ring inside the brass. Sometimes there is clear evidence on the exterior of the case prior to failure - but not always.

The once-fired Starline brass I have shows no signs of that failure. They all come in over 1.700 so I size them to 1.700.

Some of the thread mentions a reamer - not a bad idea for those with that talent. Pacific tool has a reamer made ream the chamber to the .358. I'm using Hornady 200 FTX which is a .358 projectile. I run it through the Lee 356 sizer and it comes out nicely at 357 and works well. The unsized will not measure out in a finished cartridge to SAAMI specs. But you'd be ok with the reamer.

On the bag with a 3-9 scope it's an easy 1" group at 100 yards.

I used the CMMG 16" barrels on a few builds and every one performed like that. Same thing with a 12" Deadshot barrel and a 12" BSF carbon fiber in SBR and/or pistol builds. The 12" barrel only loses about a tad over 100 FPS - and the 200FTX is still 1,700 FPS at the muzzle in the 12" with 1,000 ft lbs at about 100 yards.

I shoot them all suppressed and it is a beautiful package for those of us in Ohio stuck with the strait cartridge rules. Light and easy carry package.

I spoke to CPD mags and they have a 20-rounder in the works for those thinking why not a home defense round.

I use a bulk Lovex powder D063-01 which Shooters world sells at SOCOM. I duplicated the performance with H110.

I use the CCI #41 primer since it's in the semi auto I'm more comfortable with that and it works.

Hope this helps someone.

8.20.18 Addition

Download the SAAMI drawing for the cartridge. The specs are all on there. A key to note is that there is only .10" beyond the case mouth with a .357 diameter. What I found worked reliably was to seat the projectile so the start of the ogive was just out of the case mouth. The 200FTX seats perfectly at 2.25" COL with a 1.700" case. Then, be sure to examine the outside cartridge diameter in the drawing for right at the case mouth. Measure that carefully and go .002" under that and it works well. I use a 357 Mag taper crimp die to achieve that.

Also, I found that the semi-auto BCG did not feed well. When I switched to a good-quality Aero Precision full mass BCG - no problems. Nitride coated and reasonably wet. I shoot everything suppressed so it gets dirty - I try to really test it and run many rounds and sessions between cleanings. And, it needs gas. I had one malfunctioning due to the tiniest bit of debris in the gas port. If you find the WIN factory ammo not cycling properly - check that out. It only happened in one of the 6 rifles I've worked with. The standard carbine buffer and spring seem to work fine. But, I'm usually using a JP set up or Armapec - just personal preference to test them out.

[trapper9260]

The new NRA mag that just came out have a write up about it .

[cwlongshot]

Thanks for the post Daryl! Most informative!!

I saw that too Trapper!!

CW

[retread]

Starline 350 Legend brass is listed ar $71/250. 223 Basic is about $20 more the 350 Legend brass. Go figure.