Lyman 358429 38 Special High Velocity with Unique

[Hi-Speed]

I have a Ruger 357 Blackhawk 4 5/8. I’ve been loading for years Lyman 358156 GC SWC 160 grs behind 6.0 grs Unique seated long in 38 Spl brass cases. This has proven to be a very accurate load in my 357 Magnums, more or less between a 38 Spl+P and 357 Mag loading. I have a bunch of Lyman 358429 170 grs - I’ve seen loading data using the same 6.0 grs in older Lyman manuals. I’m considering using 6.0 grs Unique for the 170 gr 358429 as well in new 38 Spl brass cases, marking primers accordingly in red, in my Ruger 357 Blackhawk for an all purpose working load out here in the high desert. Anyone use 6.0 grs Unique with the 358429 in 38 Spl cases out of either your 38-44s or 357 Magnums? I would suspect muzzle velocity approximately 1,000 FPS out of my 4 5/8 inch Ruger but chronograph will tell. Pressure I would suspect to be approx 22k-25k psi

Please note these loads are for my Ruger 357 Mag, I’m not in anyway suggesting use of them in anyone else’s firearm (s).

[Petrol & Powder]

I fully understand that you will confine the cartridges to a Ruger 357 magnum revolver but I strongly urge you to NOT create over pressure loads in 38 Special casings. While the load may be perfectly safe in your gun, it may not be in other guns. Once you assemble that over pressure 38 Special round it could find its way into a 38 Special gun. You know what that round is and you know your marking system but no one else does. Even though it is your ammunition for your guns, the possibility of it ending up in another gun exists.

With 6.0 grain of Unique in a magnum casing and a 160 grain bullet, you're probably safe in a magnum revolver. With a 38 Special casing and a 170 grain bullet, you are way over the limit. The combination of a heavy projectile and the reduced case capacity will raise pressures significantly.

It sounds as if you have a supply of 38 Special casings that you are itching to utilize as magnum level cartridges. Don't do it ! Just get some magnum casings and assemble magnum rounds in magnum casings.

I have engaged in the exact process you are considering and loaded magnum level loads in special casings for use only in magnum revolvers. I believe that action to be irresponsible and I no longer engage in that practice. Simply put, it is an unnecessary risk that can be easily avoided.

[WHITETAIL]

+1 on getting some 357 mag. brass
and loading according to the load books.

[Larry Gibson]

Hi-Speed

I also have been shooting +P+ loads using Unique in 38 SPL cases (+P Winchester cases) with cast bullets in 357 Magnum revolvers for years. We and some factories load other cartridges to higher pressure levels than are "recommended" because of "weaker" actions. The 45 Colt, 45-70, 7x57, 32 H&R, 38 ACP and others. For example we do no see the same "caution" in this thread; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?374353-454276-keith-ruger-only-data-sought ...... we ask ourselves "why is it acceptable to load the 45 colt above factory pressure levels for use in stronger guns but not the 38 SPL" ...... seems that has always been an unanswered question.........?

Rather than cautioning against loading such for your own use and to those who know what they're doing I prefer to caution everyone just not to shoot reloads of unknown make up in any firearm.

As to your loads they should be fine in your Ruger 357 revolver. However, your estimate of the psi is a bit low. I have pressure tested 6 gr of Unique in R-P cases with a WSP primer under a 150 gr 358477. The psi was 25,200. That load under your heavier 170 gr 358429 will, with little doubt, have a higher psi.

[Petrol & Powder]

My problem with loading magnum level loads in 38 Special casings is that once you assemble that cartridge it becomes indistinguishable from any other 38 Special round.

Yes, they are your rounds and Yes, you can mark them somehow - but it's a simple, and foolproof, solution to just use magnum casings to start with.

I'm guilty of creating 38 Special rounds that were well over 38 Special specs and I used the same justification that I would only shoot them in .357 Magnum guns. I came to the conclusion that there is just no good reason to create that situation if you don't need to.

The question is not, "can you do it"? Clearly it can be done and is perfectly safe when those rounds are confined to the suitable firearms.
The question is, "Why do it if you don't need to" ? By using only magnum brass for magnum loads you have one less thing to worry about.

There are enough things in life that are difficult. I like to make my life simple when I can.

[bob208]

I have been using that load for years never had a problem. back when police used wheel guns most had ,357 guns but the city would not let them use mag loads. we got around that by using that load in .38 cases. I loaded for three different town forces.

I agree with larry why is it the .38 spl. gets all the warnings ? some body mite use one in a .38 but then it moves on to .45 overloads with out one word caution.

[Hi-Speed]

My friend loaned me this morning copy of Handloader Oct 2016 where Brian Pearce recommends max of 5.5 grs behind 173 gr 358429. He also tested the 358429 starting at 5.8 grs to high of 6.5 grs using Power Pistol...interesting. Of course I’m not recommending these loads and anyone wishing to use them need to consult with the Handloader magazine for its instructions, terms, etc.

I like Power Pistol in 38 Spl +P using 158 gr SWC’s...using Alliant data 6.0 grs with Speer 158 gr SWC similar to an “entry level” 38-44 loading (chronographed at approx. 975 fps in my 4 5/8 Ruger).

I do not own any 38 Spl only revolvers and do not “stock pile” 38-44s preferring to load these only 25 rds at a time and the balance (25 rds) 38 Spl +P for a range visit. I rarely shoot 357 Factory loads, preferring my 158 gr SWC 357 Mag mid range loadings with Unique at approx 1,100 FPS in six inch barrel tests (basically duplicates the later 38-44 loads from the 1960s).

[Hi-Speed]

Note - that the Handloader 358429 loads mentioned are 38-44 level loads...again, please refer to Handloader for details. I’m purchasing some back issues of Handloader magazines - great publication

[mdi]

I too wonder why you just use 38 Special brass, not a lot though because I too have loaded some +P+ loads in my 38 brass. I am the only one that shoots my handloads, and I do not allow anyone else to shoot them, ever. Maybe just a quirk of mine, but I shoot alone, no interference or distractions. I label every batch I load, right after I finish boxing or bagging them as part of my reloading system. I make a label at the start of the session. Haven't mixed up any loads in 30+ years of reloading.

I don't agree with the "what if someone got your loads and shot them in their gun?". There are 2 ways to get some of my ammo; they can steal it then if their gun blows up, too bad. And if I die, I already have my reloading buddies lined up to scavenge my reloads (with the instructions to break down my handloads for the components). So, no need for me to worry about "what might happen if...".

[Petrol & Powder]

Individuals can do whatever they please but I see no reason to make my life more complicated when there is a very simple solution available. Use 38 Special brass for 38 Special loads and use 357 magnum brass for magnum loads. See how simple that is. :D

[marek313]

357 brass can be hard to find while 38S brass is pretty common so I dont blame people for using what they have. My 38S load is Lee 130gr RN under 5gr of HP38/W231 and thats only used in my Ruger GP100 MC so no issues there. I use that because I find it to be the most accurate load and its not that hot its maybe +P but that would probably depend on which manual you look at. Many people load hot ammo here and there just make sure you keep track of it and stay safe.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you're so short of funds that you can't obtain some 357 mag brass I don't know how you could afford powder & primers.

If the OP is that hard up for 357 casings I'll send him some.

[Conditor22]

that's one reason I powder coat. I designate a certain color for hot loads.

I agree with Larry, tear down any hand loads you get unless you know the reloader and trust him with your life because that's what your doing.

[mdi]

I think the gist of this thread was a question about a load for a specific bullet, not if the OP could afford 357 brass. I haven't used the bullet quoted with +P+ loads, but I have loaded a 160 gr Lachmiller SWC over some pretty hefty loads in 38 Special brass. I can afford 357 brass, and have a few hundred, but I chose my load, partly as an experiment and got some fairly good results. I have a Taurus 4" 357 Magnum that just eats them up...

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree, The gist of this thread is not about what the OP can or cannot afford. I was simply responding to the comment made by marek313 in post #11:

marek313 wrote, "......357 brass can be hard to find while 38S brass is pretty common so I don't blame people for using what they have.....".

[Hi-Speed]

I take a nostalgic look into my shooting and reloading...I like duplicating the rounds of old as the 38-44. They are fun to shoot and I find these loads in 38 Spl cases to be very accurate at the levels I load. Yes, nothing to do with 357 Mag brass, I have enough and appreciate those offering to send me some, no thanks.

[John Van Gelder]

The 358429 in .38 spl brass over 6 gr. of Unique is a very efficient load, they are the equivalent of the now out of print .38/44 loadings that pre dated the .357.

John Goins did some very extensive testing loading various bullets and powders his goal was an accurate load that would produce around 1000 fps. The loads were intended for heavy frame guns or those originally chambered in .357 magnum. He found that the 358429 over 6 grains of Unique was very accurate and produced around 1050 fps. He also found that the best result was with bullets sized .3586.

I have also attached some load data for the .38-44

[wgg]

Thanks for this thread. I recently bought a like new S&W 19 with a 2 1/2" barrel. The ejector rod is short and 38 Special brass ejects more surely. I am looking for 38-44 level loads for carry loads.

[John Van Gelder]

wgg

The mod 19 is a fine carry gun, back when I started off as a state trooper in Alaska that was our issue weapon. I carried that gun all of the time and even used it for hunting, my load of choice was a 158 grn SWC in .357 cases over 7 grn. of Unique. The 6 grn., load with the 358429 bullet will do anything you want from a handgun, and extend the life of your mod 19. When I retired I got a commemorative "19", and all I use in it is the .38/44 level loads. The .38/44 loads were very popular with handgun hunters before the .357 came on the scene, the early factory loadings produced around 1100 fps with the 158 grn. bullet, later they were reduced to around 1050 fps.

There are a number of iterations of the .358429, I have a very old Ideal mold, with the "square" grease ring, that drops a 173 grn bullet in hard alloy, my newer 4 cavity Lyman mold gives me 168 grn., in the same alloy. I do not think you can go wrong with that bullet and the 6 grn., of Unique load. A good choice and good shooting to you..j

[xrider472]

Here's a great article by John Taffin with load data at the bottom that may help. I've been using the exact load you're asking about for years in my GP100. Great load.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt38spcl.htm

[John Van Gelder]

xrider472

I have been using the 6 grn load in my GP100, it is just a good all around load. I haven't chronographed that load in my 4" GP100 but the 7 grn Unique load in .357 brass with the 358429, gives me 1150-1200 in my 4" GP100.

[David2011]

Another reason to use only .357 cases in a .357 is the carbon buildup ring. Someone I know loads even his powder puff loads in .357 cases to prevent building up carbon at the .38 mouth location. Powder puff loads build up carbon worse than hot loads.

[Hi-Speed]

great information, thank you

[xrider472]

John Van Gelder

My chronograph results have been between 1000 & 1050 fps with 6.0 grains in 38 Spcl brass. To duplicate that velocity in 357 brass, I use 6.5 grains. My GP100 has the 4" barrel also.

[John Van Gelder]

xrider472

That is a useful load, I like that load in .38 spl brass, because I can seat the bullet right at the crimp groove and use it in my mod 28 S&Ws.

[Hi-Speed]

Does anyone have the pressure associated with the 358429 in 38 Spl cases? 25-30k psi?

[John Van Gelder]

I do not have any specific pressure values, but, the .38-44 loadings are above the SAMMI specs., for .38+P and just slight below the current .357 Magnum pressures. Probably pretty close to 9mm standard pressure 35K. They should be just fine in any gun chambered for .357 magnum. I have used them in the Ruger SP101 in .38 spl, that gun is most commonly chambered in .357.

Probably not a good idea to use them in an "Air Weight" S&W..

[Hi-Speed]

Thank you John

[John Van Gelder]

Hi-Speed

You are welcome. That is a very useful load, a bit easier to control than full power .357 loads, but with good shot placement will work as well as the magnum loads. I like to load my "mid range" .357 stuff in .38 brass, it just makes it a bit easier to keep loads separated.

[Thin Man]

I enjoyed reading all the comments in this discussion about the 358429 mold pattern and loads. That got me thinking so I looked and discovered - that is a mold I don't have at this time. Well, imagine that. Looks like I need to go shopping!

[SvenLindquist]

Why would anyone use 38 spec cases in a 357 magnum ? Who shoots 44 Russians in their 44 magnum ? 45-70s in a 45-90 ?

[kenton]

I shoot 38 special in my 357 and I shoot 44 special in my 44 mag.

because I can

[15meter]

Why would anyone use 38 spec cases in a 357 magnum ? Who shoots 44 Russians in their 44 magnum ? 45-70s in a 45-90 ?

I used to shoot 45 Schofield in my 94 Trapper because it only fit 9 rounds of 45 Colt in the magazine.

When shooting Cowboy, I had two choices, load 9 rounds of 45 Colt and have to load a single round on the line to get my 10 rounds or load the Schofields and get 10 rounds in the magazine,

[John Van Gelder]

A video from the Military Arms Channel shows the presenter shooting .40 S&W in his 10mm semi auto and Ruger GP 100. Just as a guess I would venture there are more folks who shoot .38 spls in their magnums than those that don't. It has always been a selling point for the .357 that you can use .38 spl ammunition.

[Rex]

John, the 7 grain Unique load in the 357 case with any bullet that I cast has become my favorite also. The Arthritis in my lower thumb joints tolerate it and it is quite accurate. A bit over 1100 in my 4" 686. I've been playing with some loads in a 38 special case, 6 grains Unique and 11.5 grains 2400. My sore hands do not like Mr. Keith's loads. For "trigger time" I do use 3.2 grains Bullseye. It has to get above freezing with a little less wind before I do much testing though.

Rex

[John Van Gelder]

Rex

Any movement from the folks at Handloads.com..? Lots of stories about folks defending themselves from big predators and angry herbivores with the 9mm, the 6 grn load in the .357 is significantly above that, without the muzzle blast and recoil of full power magnum loads.

At the 3/4 century mark, I really enjoy shooting the lighter stuff and good shot placement is always better than more horsepower and poor shot placement.

[Rex]

John,
Haven't heard a thing about Handloads.com. The 6 grain load you speak of was in the .38 Spec. case wasn't it?

[John Van Gelder]

Rex

In .38 spl. cases, Those work well in my mod 28, it has a short cylinder and the Keith bullet is too long if seated at the crimp groove in .357 brass. You can get by seating the bullets in the crimp groove in .357 brass with the 19 and the L frame smith and the "L" frame Ruger (GP 100).

[Hi-Speed]

Rex, an old favorite of mine using 2400 is the 358311 (Lyman 2) and 11.0 grs of 2400 (from Lyman 44) - gets 1,100 FPS 6 inch barrel. But it is darn accurate.

[John Van Gelder]

6 gr of Unique a nice round number gives you a +P load in the 9mm (use at your own risk, a load I got from a friend in BC for woods carry) a high velocity .38 spl loading, a just above standard .44 spl., load a good target load in the .45ACP and a very pleasant load in the .45 Colt. One powder to do everything..well almost... j

[Rex]

I have loaded some with 11.5 grains 2400 with 358426 and also 357446. It's been bad weather so haven't got to try them. I do like the 6 grain Unique load but have a bit of 2400 that doesn't get used much.
OH, so much fun playing!

[rsrocket1]

Does anyone have the pressure associated with the 358429 in 38 Spl cases? 25-30k psi?

With a .355" seating depth (1.57"COL), 26,700 psi
With a .375" seating depth (1.55"COL), 28,000 psi

QL Estimates of Pmax

[John Van Gelder]

rsrocket1

Thanks for the data, I would have guessed those values. Substantially above .38 Spl.+P+ (SAMMI 22K), but well below .357 magnum (35K). Just as a point of interest, some of the old .357 Magnum loadings, were laboratory tested and were in the 45K range.

[Hi-Speed]

Thank you for the psi data as well.

[Hi-Speed]

Typical OAL using 358429 in 38 Spl cases is 1.537. Would you have psi data with that length? I’m afraid it may be at least 30k psi, definitely, 357 Mag territory.

Thank you again

[LAH]

It has to get above freezing with a little less wind before I do much testing though.

Rex

Understand. Haven't fired a shot in a couple weeks but it's rain, not wind. If it weren't for my air rifle & a nice basement I wouldn't be shooting at all.

[tucumcari_kid]

Why would anyone use 38 spec cases in a 357 magnum ? Who shoots 44 Russians in their 44 magnum ? 45-70s in a 45-90 ?

Yes I shoot 44 special in my 44 mags Just like DIRTY HARRY ...... "44 - light special in this size gun gives less recoil and better control ..."

Well, I have 357s and 38 special revolvers so there is no reason to use 357 brass if I'm not making magnum loads or if I want to mess with different guns. Also I like to experiment with old load data such 38 super police or 38/44 which means using 38 cases. Plus different bullet/brass combinations yield different results in 38 vs 357 brass... 38 special factory loads are so inexpensive right now, they are less than reloading, so kinda means I havta use 38 in 357...

[Walks]

When shooting a shorter case in a longer chamber, all that is needed is a short scrubbing with a dry chamber brush.

My Kids shot Cowboy for several years, about 20,000rds a year loaded in .38spl cases for 5-6 years. Marlin 1894CB & 1894CS, Colt SAA & Clones in .357Mag.

Never needed more then that dry brush at the end of the day. Knockdown rounds were identified by being loaded in .357Mag cases.

I still load the Lyman #358429 over 6.0grs of Unique for My old M27. I like the Bullet. I load 6.5grs in a .357Mag case for my other .357Mag Revolvers.

Used to shoot that 6.0gr Unique load in my Post War Colt Official Police. Now I've backed it down to 4.7gr, perfect POA/POI at 50ft.

I've shot enough Hot Loads over the past 60yrs.
My Arthritis prefers the light loads.

[John Van Gelder]

Just out of curiosity, I paper patched some of my 358429 bullets, when fired out of .38 spl brass, there is little to no fouling in the cylinder.

My story about winter.. I checked my trail cameras, and on the 2nd of February there was a lot of bare ground, the next four weeks, I had snow almost every day, it is 3 to 4 feet deep in places, I have a pile 8' deep where the snow has slid off my porch roof, not very conducive for going to shoot.

[Rex]

John, I don't know if I should thank you or blame you. I've read your tales of "6 grains Unique and 358429 in short brass so often that I loaded a bunch. Out of my 4" 686 it is quite mild and very accurate. I about froze yesterday out in my unheated garage casting that bullet.:smile:
Now as for loading I was priming a Federal plated brass on my Dillon 550. The primer was very snug and having trouble getting started in so I applied a little more pressure to the handle and BANG. I was quite surprised at how far a Winchester SSPM primer will shoot flame out the mouth of a piece of brass. If that primer won't ignite something then it is unburnable!

[John Van Gelder]

Rex

Are your ears still ringing..

[Hi-Speed]

About five miles up as the crow flies (Sierra Nevada) there is literally many feet of snow - great skiing this year. They got ten feet over the past couple of weeks. Down here in the high desert the little snow that we had has melted and it is soon becoming “range time!”

[John Van Gelder]

I usually start seeing bears the first or second week in April, that may not be the case this year.

[dbldblu]

358429 loaded to crimp groove length in 357 cases will be too long for most revolvers. That's because Elmer Keith designed it for use in the 38 special case before the 357 magnum existed. I know that you can seat deeper in the mag case and crimp over the driving band but that just doesn't look right to me. I don't agree with the idea to never load 38 special above saami spec because someone someday might use them in a 38. I do agree with the post that said "don't use someone else's handloads".

[Hi-Speed]

...just finished reloading the last bunch of 50 358429 with 6.0 grs. Out to the range this week. I also ordered some Keith type SWC 170 grs bullets which appear to be a duplicate of the 358429s.

[Schreck5]

John, I don't know if I should thank you or blame you. I've read your tales of "6 grains Unique and 358429 in short brass so often that I loaded a bunch. Out of my 4" 686 it is quite mild and very accurate. I about froze yesterday out in my unheated garage casting that bullet.:smile:
Now as for loading I was priming a Federal plated brass on my Dillon 550. The primer was very snug and having trouble getting started in so I applied a little more pressure to the handle and BANG. I was quite surprised at how far a Winchester SSPM primer will shoot flame out the mouth of a piece of brass. If that primer won't ignite something then it is unburnable!

As long as noone got hurt, that right there's purty funny. I tnink i would have filled my britches! Bruce

[Rex]

HI-SPEED, let us know how this load treats you. It's too cold to set up the chrony but I'd guess that I'm getting right around 1000 fps out of my 4" 686.

SCHRECK, yes that is a surprise and loud to.

[John Van Gelder]

Primers are high explosive, smokeless powder is a propellant. I seem to recall an article in the American Rifleman from back in the 70s, the writer claimed that if you could set off a tray (100 primers) , it would have the equivalent force of a fragmentation hand grenade.

[curioushooter]

Don't overload 45 colt either. Get 357 and 44 or 454 cases if you get magnumitus.

[Walks]

I agree wholeheartedly with curioushooter
The .45Colt is a great Caliber. If you need more Power get a .44Mag. And if you need even more Power then get yourself a .454 Casull.
And if you need more then that.....

Buy a Rifle.

But the .38-44 is a great cartridge, load light or heavy. Just have fun.

[John Van Gelder]

A bit off topic, I did a lot with the .45 Colt. In any of the heavy frame guns, such as the big frame Blackhawk, Redhawk, Super Redhawk and some of the other .45 Colt guns that are now of print, you can easily surpass the performance of the .44 magnum and do it with less pressure. Here is a link to an article by John Linebaugh, probably the best authority on the topic.

https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

[curioushooter]

I really don't get it. I have a friend OBSESSED with trying to get 45 Colt to become 44 Magnum. He has his Blackhawk and his Brazilian clone Win 92. So it is fine for him. But why not just get a 44 Magnum? That way when someone (maybe after you DIE) takes that 45 Colt and slips it into their weak Italian repro it doesn't blow up. That way you are assured the brass is up to the job. That way you are sure that the rifle can take that pressure. Marlins in particular have thin chamber walls at the threads to begin with (even in 44). Running a 45 at 44 pressure is NOT a good idea.

44 Magnum is a great cartridge primarily because once you go beyond it you are going into crazy territory in terms of recoil and design. I've fired 375 Winchester, 454 Casull, and 500 Magnum handguns. 44 Mag is the tipping point for me. There is reason why Keith started with 44 Special and NOT 45 Colt when he created the big bore magnum. I find 44 full house loads unpleasant even in heavy normal handguns (like the Blackhawk I used to own). What I really needed to do instead of ditching the 44 was just load it more moderately, but I was loading 44 primarily for my Marlin. So the whole two gun thing didn't work. If I loaded it to make good use of that long barrel, it was unbearable in the Blackhawk. If I loaded it to be bearable in the Blackhawk it was too slow/low SD to shoot flat penetrate to 150 yards. The ONLY deer I ever wounded and lost was to a 44 Magnum with a too-light bullet at too long of range.

[John Van Gelder]

The SAMMI pressure limit for the .45Colt is 14,000# the primary reason for that is there are still some black powder 1873 Colts and other guns of that ilk, that are safe at those pressures.

The old heavy frame Rugers, the Blackhawl and the "first generation" Vaqueros were safe and strong enough to withstand loads well up into the 30,000 range. There used to be lad data for those loadings with the appropriate caveats attached.

When Ruger went to their new Vaquero, which are built on the .357 magnum frame, that data was dropped from the newer manuals. A point here is that both the Flattop .45 ( a short run) and the Vaquero on the same frame are/were offered in a convertible model with a .45ACP cylinder. Those guns are rated to use .45ACP +P ammunition. (SAMMI pressure 21,000) the Colt loads can approach those pressures safely and realize a significant improvement over standard pressure loadings.

There are numerous articles about improving on the .45 Colt, appropriate load data and laboratory tested pressure ratings. We got into hand loading so we did not have to shoot factory loaded ammunition, there would be no magnum calibre fire arms with out those folks who pushed the established boundaries.

I do not advocate "hot rodding" any calibre, and the old standard .45Colt loadings are in actuality not far below the .44 magnum in field performance. The original 1873 black powder load of 40 gr. of powder produced 1000+ fps with a 255 grn bullet in a 7.5" 1873 Colt.

Some of us can only afford one hand gun, so knowing it's capabilities and having some "just in case" ammunition is quite practical.

I started loading for the .45 Colt back in 1975, old age is catching up with me and shooting those 350 gr., loads is not as much fun as it used to be. These days I tend to shoot more .38s and 9mms than the heavy stuff. I still have some of the heavy loads for the .45Colt and the next time I run into a rampaging Cape Buffalo in the wilds of Oregon I am ready..

[tucumcari_kid]

A lot of people comment on "what's going to happen if someone puts your overloaded cartridges in their prewar gun?" i use +p cases for my 38-44 loads so the I can keep track, but that's just because I have a dozen other 38s. But no one should be putting strange reloads in their guns and expecting anything besides disaster. If I buy or otherwise find reloads, I break them down for components. But I don't think I need to restrain my loads on the odd chance that someone is going to find them and use them. I have been on the range 2 or 3 times and have had other people's pistols come apart near me, or next to. THAT is an issue. If you're loading hot, make sure you're clear. It's fine if you blow your gun up, just don't hurt your neighbor. I think there is room and a place for caution, but other people shooting strange rounds is a danger in itself. I don't think I need to worry about that, but others' situations may require different precautions.

[John Van Gelder]

Mike

Paco Kelly has an interesting story, he had been using some pretty heavy loads in a 1873 Colt, clone is the term these days. It was one of the Ubertis chambered in .45 Colt. He had some loads that produced 1200 fps, with a 250-255 gr. bullet. He had the loads tested and they were in the 20K range, quite safe in that gun which was also rated for +P .45ACP. Back in the early days of the 454 Casull the ammunition was made up in .45Colt brass. I am sure you can see where I am going with this story. Paco managed to get one of the .454 loads into his Colt copy, it blew the cylinder and removed the top strap. Not being deterred, he got a new cylinder and welded a new top strap in place and continued using the gun for several years.

Bad things can happen, and it is also possible to be struck by lightening.. Take care..John

[John Van Gelder]

Back in the days when I lived in the East, and there were lots of wood chucks to shoot at, I grew up on a dairy farm and one of my collateral functions was wood chuck control, lots of history hunting "chucks".. Early on I discovered that relatively pedestrian .38 spl. SWC loads were not very effective, but a good .38 wadcutter was. Woodchucks can be a little hard to anchor.

Not having a wadcutter mold at the time, I would put a gas check in the 358156 mold at the point of the top driving band, this produced about a 105 gr. WC, made up out of soft lead, with a gas check, and a generous helping of Unique, these loads were very effective on wood chucks.

[nitro-express]

This way down in the thread, but I do feel compelled to comment: A rather common theme is why not use 357 brass in the 357 and 38 brass in the 38. Nothing wrong with that. It does somewhat limit your options, but it certainly is the most proper way to do it.

The crud ring: Not a fan of that, and it is a bit hard to clean, and it should be cleaned fairly often, corrosion tends to form under it if it's left there too long.

One of the limits on 357 Mag brass, is that it's internal volume is large enough that reduced loads tend to have erratic ignition and accuracy issues. So, if you load with 38 Special cases, a reduced load works better, less volume, consistent ignition, more powder choices. But the 38 Special case has it limitations as well. I've tried to load Cowboy Action (low velocity, low PF) ammunition with 125 grain bullets. My results were rather ordinary at best. So I went down in size again, to 38 Long Colt brass. I can load consistent, reliable and accurate ammunition. I can load 125 gr bullets to about 700 fps with low Es/Sd.

One of the reasons that a 38 Special with wadcutters works so well is that the WC reduces the internal volume significantly, (no lead or very little lead sticking out of the mouth). It basically converts a 38 Special to a 38 LC. When you load WC bullets in a 357 case, they get funky, a bit erratic ignition, velocity a bit high, for target work. Now a WC cast hard or heat treated, at a good velocity, becomes a stopper. Not much for target work as it is faster than +P+ 38 Special.

Now before someone chimes in that they load 125's in their 357 to 500 fps with good performance, I'm sure it can be done, but I've not found an easy recipe. Also, I test all my revolver loads over a Chrony, five shots with the powder against the primer, and then 5 shots with the powder against the bullet. So, before you tell me to try such and such a load, please chrono it the same way, 5 powder back, five powder forward and include the results with your load recommendation.

What brought me to this thread was the 358429. I just bought a used 358429 mold and want to try a mid power/velocity load. I prefer to crimp in the cannelure, and so, when crimped in a 38 Special case, the OAL is 1.523 for my bullet, perfect for my application. I also want to shoot it in my 1873 and the '73 works best with ammunition with a 1.5" to 1.55" OAL.

[ACC]

I don't know if anyone else here has ever seen a fine hand gun blow up, but in my short 65 years I have seen two fine firearms come apart at the seems just because someone wanted to make the 38 special into a .357 magnum by seating the bullet out and going beyond +P.

One was a S&W Model 10 and a Colt Diamondback. Beautiful guns. Unfortunately they had idiots operating them and now they are junk.

Want .357 power? Get a .357. Load it down to 1000 fps.

ACC

[John Van Gelder]

The recommended seating of the 358429 in .357 brass is on the edge of the first driving band, this equates to the sane col when crimping in the crimp groove of .38 spl brass.

[USSR]

The recommended seating of the 358429 in .357 brass is on the edge of the first driving band, this equates to the sane col when crimping in the crimp groove of .38 spl brass.

Simply no need to do that, unless you have one of the model 27's or 28's with the short cylinder. As far as I know, almost all recently made .357's have cylinders long enough to crimp the 358429 in the crimp groove. That's how I do it.

Don

[Tim357]

A lot of people comment on "what's going to happen if someone puts your overloaded cartridges in their prewar gun?" i use +p cases for my 38-44 loads so the I can keep track, but that's just because I have a dozen other 38s. But no one should be putting strange reloads in their guns and expecting anything besides disaster. If I buy or otherwise find reloads, I break them down for components. But I don't think I need to restrain my loads on the odd chance that someone is going to find them and use them. I have been on the range 2 or 3 times and have had other people's pistols come apart near me, or next to. THAT is an issue. If you're loading hot, make sure you're clear. It's fine if you blow your gun up, just don't hurt your neighbor. I think there is room and a place for caution, but other people shooting strange rounds is a danger in itself. I don't think I need to worry about that, but others' situations may require different precautions.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[tucumcari_kid]

John:
Sorry I missed this, I have been checked out with real life. I totally get that this happens, but I bet Paco takes responsibility for his mistakes and that is an excellent point where there WERE no options case wise. Elmer Keith did the same thing with his 38 Colt New Army revolvers and DuPont #80 powder. Keith thought him and the boys were loading them pretty hot and sent some samples to Sharpe who tested them and they came up in excess of (I don't remember exactly) but something in the range of 40,000 PSI - DuPont #80 had a tendency to have sharp (no pun) spikes when overloaded.

I don't think we are talking about that for the most part because those are on "us" experimenters. But the day to day, if you're a reloader, you need to have caution about what you are doing. If you're loading 357 Mag loads in 38 special cases, you already know there is a potential for problems and must be careful. If you are naturally not careful you probably shouldn't be reloading or shooting near others, I guess. And if you find cartridges in gran pappy's drawer, don't be surprised if they perform differently than you expect. :)


Mike

Paco Kelly has an interesting story, he had been using some pretty heavy loads in a 1873 Colt, clone is the term these days. It was one of the Ubertis chambered in .45 Colt. He had some loads that produced 1200 fps, with a 250-255 gr. bullet. He had the loads tested and they were in the 20K range, quite safe in that gun which was also rated for +P .45ACP. Back in the early days of the 454 Casull the ammunition was made up in .45Colt brass. I am sure you can see where I am going with this story. Paco managed to get one of the .454 loads into his Colt copy, it blew the cylinder and removed the top strap. Not being deterred, he got a new cylinder and welded a new top strap in place and continued using the gun for several years.

Bad things can happen, and it is also possible to be struck by lightening.. Take care..John

[tucumcari_kid]

On second or third thought, I think I want a do-over on this thread. I think there is too much going on in the shooting world to expect that you can just put a round in any gun based on what's marked on the case. I have an EMF 357, a EAA Bounty Hunter 357, a 357 Blackhawn, and a Model 28 S&W. You can bet that I would make ammo that I would put in the Smith that should get no where near the EMF. Likewise, 45 colt in a Ruger plus Kirst conversions. Probably need to keep those straight. There just aren't safe bets anymore. The lovely ammo manufaturers used to load to the lowest pressure ceilings so people were "safe" regardless of what they were shooting. That would be a legally insane claim these days, but, more importantly, we have ammo manufacturers that sell to the shooting world equivalent of top fuel dragsters. You simply can't make assumptions that ammo you didn't load or buy yourself, consciously, is safe to shoot in any gun marked with that caliber. Therefore, the OP's point of using 38 Spec brass in 357 rounds is really limited to the discussion of the effectiveness of using the shorter brass and all the technical part of that, and avoiding the issue of "what ifs" because NO ONE should be putting unknown rounds in their guns and pulling the trigger unless they are prepared to dig small pieces of metal out of their face and hands -- far from innocent bystanders. How you mark and store your own special ammo is up to you, certainly be careful, but I can't keep others safe, nor can the ammo manufacturers or other reloaders...

[beagle]

Simply no need to do that, unless you have one of the model 27's or 28's with the short cylinder. As far as I know, almost all recently made .357's have cylinders long enough to crimp the 358429 in the crimp groove. That's how I do it.

Don

I normally use the 358429 in two Blackhawk convertibles and a Marlin M1894 .357 carbine. In my Marlin, the 358429 seated in the crimp groove is too long to feed reliably in the Marlin. So, since I use the ammunition interchangeably, I seat on the forward edge on the driving band. This makes all participants happy.

I hear all the arguments on this thread about .38s and .357 loads. Some good and some bad and of no concern.

I have two Blackhawk convertibles, a 4" Python and the Marlin that live in the house along with my wife's Model 15 Smith. I shoot my own ammo and don't sell or give it away. Any of these guns will take the load in question but I try and stick to lighter loads in the Model 15 due to wear and tear.

All my testing on the old High Speed .38 Loads articled was done with 200 rounds of Winchester, straight case, unplated cases (no cannelure). I encountered one 1/8" neck split in the whole process and that was probably due to brass fatigue from crimping.

I did a lot of research on that article and my main purpose was to see how good the old .38-44 load really was and to try and duplicate velocities with vintage design bullets.

Research showed me that .38 Special cases and .357 Magnum cases are all made to the same specs except as to length. The +P is added to Plus P loads to identify the hotter loads.

If you read that article, you'll see that I stated that I would use them only in .357 Magnum chambered guns. This in itself induces a safety factor into the equation as you have a 1/8" freebore built into the .357 chamber so it's a perfectly safe practice. I wouldn't want to shoot a lot of these in old Model 10 M & Ps or early WWII Colts but for modern guns, a few should be all right and you owe it to yourself not to go crazy in loading hot loads in .38 cases. But, the .38-44 loads at around a 1,000 FPS seem to do all right in modern .357 chambered guns and definitely expand the usage of the .38 Special to a good small game load. Why? I got plenty of .357 cases but I also have a "tater sack" full of .38 Special cases./beagle

[USSR]

I normally use the 358429 in two Blackhawk convertibles and a Marlin M1894 .357 carbine. In my Marlin, the 358429 seated in the crimp groove is too long to feed reliably in the Marlin. So, since I use the ammunition interchangeably, I seat on the forward edge on the driving band.

A good reason to do that. I only question seating over the driving band and not in the crimp groove when it is not necessary for your particular firearm.

Don

[dverna]

I enjoyed reading the different opinions about loading .38 Spl cases to levels that are dangerous in the .38.

I have never done that, though have considered it...but I do not own anything that cannot take .357 pressure loads.

So why did I even consider it? About 5000 .38 cases I will never use up is one reason. The other reason is I have an 1894 chambered in .38 Spl that would be safe with higher pressure loads.

Maybe I will load to +P+ levels. They would be safe in all my guns and not blow up a .38 chambered gun if my reloads are ever fired in another gun when I pass on.

I agree with the comment that people should not use unknown reloads...but I know it happens...and that concerns me.

[Golfswithwolves]

My problem with loading magnum level loads in 38 Special casings is that once you assemble that cartridge it becomes indistinguishable from any other 38 Special round.

Yes, they are your rounds and Yes, you can mark them somehow - but it's a simple, and foolproof, solution to just use magnum casings to start with.

I'm guilty of creating 38 Special rounds that were well over 38 Special specs and I used the same justification that I would only shoot them in .357 Magnum guns. I came to the conclusion that there is just no good reason to create that situation if you don't need to.

The question is not, "can you do it"? Clearly it can be done and is perfectly safe when those rounds are confined to the suitable firearms.
The question is, "Why do it if you don't need to" ? By using only magnum brass for magnum loads you have one less thing to worry about.

There are enough things in life that are difficult. I like to make my life simple when I can.

I had not considered the aspect of 38-44 rounds and 38 Special rounds being of identical appearance, but they certainly are! As I do load for both my S&W Heavy Duty (38-44) and also for regular 38 Specials, I can see where it is a good idea to somehow definitely mark the containers of the heavier loads as NOT FOR STANDARD .38 SPECIAL REVOLVERS. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Petander]

It also feels sort of stupid to have a Model 28 around when you have 358429 / 357 Mag ammo, loaded normally to the crimp groove.

https://i.postimg.cc/s2fd44jS/IMG-20191205-134055.jpg

I just got this mold,I will load it for standard pressure 38 Special only, for my Model 14 which I don't even have yet, paperwork pending.

I don't have to shoot this bullet in a 586 or 28 at all. Those decisions keep my life relaxed.

[USSR]

Nice pic Petander. Definitely makes cylinder rotation a bit of a problem.:)

Don

[John Van Gelder]

The lyman load data for the 358429 in .357 cases indicates a crimp at the front of the top driving band, just because the original guns were the short cylinder N frame S&W. I colour code my loads, by painting the tips of the bullets. The 358429 was designed for the .38 spl. Elmer Keith loaded that bullet over 13.5 gr. of 2400 and shot them in N frame .38 spls. S&W along with Keith introduced the .38-44 Outdoorsman, which was the precursor of the .357 Magnum. The old Keith load produced some place in the vicinity of 1200 fps., while the factory .38-44 loads were closer to 1100 fps with a 158 gr, lead SWC. Those loadings were offered by Winchester up until about the mid sixties. By then the factory loadings were listed at 1050 fps. The .38-44 did not have a very big following, since the .357 was introduced a few years later.

The 358429 in .38 spl brass over 6 gr. of Unique is a pretty useful load, and will do pretty much anything you need a hand gun for. I have an old mod 19 with the cut out on the forcing cone, that is all I shoot in that gun.

[Petander]

The 358429 was designed for the .38 spl.

And now we have all these modern versions right out of the box, like Mihec with different HP pins. I like the weight options with different pins.

https://i.postimg.cc/QxBfnN0t/IMG-20191205-085813.jpg.


( I compared different temps here, from frosty to shiny. Silky in the middle is the best as usual, only change was casting cadence. Very easy to get silky! )

[tucumcari_kid]

I had not considered the aspect of 38-44 rounds and 38 Special rounds being of identical appearance, but they certainly are! As I do load for both my S&W Heavy Duty (38-44) and also for regular 38 Specials, I can see where it is a good idea to somehow definitely mark the containers of the heavier loads as NOT FOR STANDARD .38 SPECIAL REVOLVERS. Thanks for pointing this out.

That's why I use +p cases only for 38/44 loads. But if you have a variety of loads and guns you may need a better system like john's color coating (fingernail polish on the case heads)

[Gunner38]

I have been using a loading of 12.0 gr. of 6 month old #2400 in New Starline 38 +P brass with Elmer's #358429 boolit cast by Western Bullet Company (170 gr. wt) in my 1 year old Taurus Model 66 7-shot 4" Stainless bought New and really like it alot, nice and comfortable load, and very accurate. The OP posted a load of 6 gr. of Unique in 38 cases, which sounds very interesting to me for a mid-range load. I'm up here in Minnesota so I will have to wait for Spring to go out to try it though, Arthritis and cold weather puts too much of a "Hitch in my Git-a-long". Thanks to the OP for putting that load up for me to see. Happy Trails Folks.

P.S. I did forget the primer that I used in the above #2400 load, a CCI-500 Small Pistol Primer. I always forget something in my posts, thank God for the "Edit Function".

[John Van Gelder]

I have the hollow point version of the 358429 as well, I shot a mt. lion with those and they did not penetrate well. They were a medium alloy loaded to an average velocity of 1200 fps. I found over the years they were suitable for pests and small predators for anything bigger the solids worked better.

[Gunner38]

John, I would like to find some #358439 to buy somewhere (or the like) lead HP's to load up myself. Some that are Not as hard as a rock that is, and will expand in the field.

[Petander]

Such a great bullet. Got the 13 BHN Mihec HP version shooting great in full house 357 load right away.

https://i.postimg.cc/GpXhhQj2/IMG-20191215-154138-711.jpg

Here are softer ones for 38 Special:

https://i.postimg.cc/XJjfwZfh/IMG-20191212-165728-114.jpg

[curioushooter]

One of the limits on 357 Mag brass, is that it's internal volume is large enough that reduced loads tend to have erratic ignition and accuracy issues.

This is basically the same with 38. Both cases are greatly "oversized."

I find that Tightgroup works quite well in 38 or 357 as it seems to be position and case fill insensitive. It is my go-to powder for light loads, but be cautious. Double or even triple or quadruple charging the case is a possibility. What a kaboom that would be! Unique or Trailboss are bulky enough to prevent this, but they are both a bit too fast for what I would call 357 Medium loads. Blue Dot is the correct theoretical burn rate, but for whatever reason I've found 2400 with just a reduced charge works a little better in my revolvers.

For whatever reason 358429 pushed by 12 grains of 2400 in my M19 is incredibly accurate. More accurate than any 38 "target loads" I've made so far. I tried 6.0 grains of Unique and it was not as accurate, was smokier, and had 100-150 FPS less velocity. Though the recoil seems greater using the 2400 load, it seems like a more smooth roll of recoil than with Unique, which was snappier feeling. But I like them both.


Marlin M1894 .357 carbine. In my Marlin, the 358429 seated in the crimp groove is too long to feed reliably in the Marlin.

In my marlin the 358429 crimped in the groove of a 357 results in a jam; too long to allow the elevator to raise the case. Requires removal of the lever (and hence a screwdriver) to clear. In a 38 case it is fine; however; it is not necessary to use a 38 case. The .135" difference in case length between is the 357 and 38 is more than is needed to to make it work. I only trim off .06" from a mag case to get it to feed, and this is still enough lenght to prevent anyone from putting this round into a 38 special chamber. So you have properly marked brass, of proper case strength, and you retain the inherent safety feature of magnum vs. special brass. The only prob is the "crud ring" which will be there anyway...even with the full length brass. It's just a nominally longer.

I suspect this is true of all 357 Marlins, so I don't know why this hasn't been brought up yet. Lee makes a custom trim gauge pin for like 10 bucks or you can just take a 357 one and file down the pin end to your liking. It's only 60 thousands you need to take off. This is like a $5 solution. And doesn't require all the agonizing going on here.

The advocacy of using 38 cases for magnum loads is so wrong for so many reasons, the first of which being safety. Not going to even go there...

[Photog]

Does anyone have the pressure associated with the 358429 in 38 Spl cases? 25-30k psi?

28044psi per quickload

[Hi-Speed]

28044psi per quickload

Thank you!

[fn1889m]

So the Lyman Cast Bullet 3rd Ed. lists the max load for .38 spl for 358429 (169 gn) as Unique, 5.0 gn, for 860 fps. The Lyman Cast Bullet 4th Ed. lists the max load for 358429 as Unique, 4.2 gn, for 841 fps.

I assume from this thread that 5 gn of Unique under a 170 nominal grain bullet in .38 spl fired on a .357 magnum chamber such as a New Vaquero or 686 would be safe. But why the reduction in the max charge over time?

I would like to get about 900 fps using that bullet and Unique. Tumble lubed, etc. I try to stay under 1000 fps with various PB bullets.

[John Van Gelder]

If you look up the thread on this forum titled 38/44 loads there is a reprint of an article from the old Handloads forum, with some pretty comprehensive load data for high velocity .38 spl loads. The 358427 loaded over 6 gr. of Unique produced 1085 fps. These should be used in .357 rated guns.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?221939-38-44-loads

And here is the link to the actual data.. http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/High%20Speed%20.38%20Special%20Loads.pdf

[fn1889m]

Thanks. Read the data. I am not trying to shoot past the Van Allen belt. Will try 5 gn Unique in .38 Spl. For 5 and 5.5 inch barrels. Just trying to find some vintage loads to match the bullet.

[John Van Gelder]

fn1889m

In all actuality the 'vintage' loads tend to be hotter than modern +P. Over many years using the 358429 bullet, bought my old single cavity mold in 1968, I have found that it works best, accuracy wise when driven at higher velocities.

There is a lot to be said about that bullet loaded in .357 cases to the 1300 fps mark, when shot at extreme ranges beyond 200 yards, that bullet retains it energy better than the standard 240 gr. .44 magnum loading. Pushed out of a rifle you can pretty much duplicate .30-30 ballistics.

If it comes to the point where assault rifles are banned, a good lever gun in .357 should keep the "Enemy from the Gate".

[Kosh75287]

ONE thing that might be tried to achieve higher velocity loads, without pushing the edge of the envelope with charge weights, is to switch to polymer-coated projectiles. I've noticed that I'll gain 3 - 8% in muzzle velocity, depending on the load of interest. I'm guessing that the somewhat higher lubricity of the polymer coating enables greater acceleration as the bullet travels through the barrel.

[Golfswithwolves]

A load I like for the .38/44 is 6.0 grains of Unique (.38 Special cases of course for my S&W Heavy Duty) and the Lyman 358439 HP bullet (weight about 165 grains). This gives excellent accuracy, easy recoil, and 1010 fps average in my 5" revolver. Not quite the same as the heavier 173 grain 358429 bullet but close, and I reckon it is a useful load. As Mr. Van Gelder has pointed out in this thread, he finds the 6.0 grain Unique load to be good with the 358429 as well (both loads for use in the strongest .38 revolvers or .357 Magnums only, because they are of higher pressure than +P). Too bad nobody manufactures .38/44 revolvers anymore! Bob

[pmer]

fn1889m

In all actuality the 'vintage' loads tend to be hotter than modern +P. Over many years using the 358429 bullet, bought my old single cavity mold in 1968, I have found that it works best, accuracy wise when driven at higher velocities.

There is a lot to be said about that bullet loaded in .357 cases to the 1300 fps mark, when shot at extreme ranges beyond 200 yards, that bullet retains it energy better than the standard 240 gr. .44 magnum loading. Pushed out of a rifle you can pretty much duplicate .30-30 ballistics.

If it comes to the point where assault rifles are banned, a good lever gun in .357 should keep the "Enemy from the Gate".

I've had good luck shooting the 358429 in a 16'' Antonio Rossi lever action. Using 357 cases I crimp on the front driving band so it can feed through the action and use plenty of 296 to get the velocity up. The Rossi has a slower twist rate and cartridge looks a bit odd crimped on the front band but it is definitely a deer stopper.

[John Van Gelder]

Petander

I was going over some of the posts in this thread, and just took note of the size of the cavity in you hollow point bullets, I have the same bullet but the cavity in mine is much smaller, it is a pretty old mold. For better expansion I have used the HP pin out of my .44 hollow point mold.