Advice for loading .357 sig I keep crushing cases during bullet seating process

[chutestrate]

I would appreciate any advice if people would be so kind offer it. I'm just starting to reload 357 sig. I'm using a dillon 550b with rcbs decapping die, dillon powder measure, rcbs seating die, and lee factory crimp die. At first I was crushing the necks, but adjusted the seating die out half a turn and that helped a little but still ap problem. several of my finished rounds are loading the rounds crooked. I can't figure out that one. Any ideas?

I think part of the problem is the rcbs seating die. No matter if I raise or lower the die I get crushed cases. It's happening with cast and jacketed slugs. All of my slugs are flat base so I'm not sure what would help. I've also adjusted the flare at the powder station with no improvement.

Should I get a dillon seating die?
Should I use a bevel base cast or jacketed round?
Not sure what else to look at.

I've added some images that show what I was having problems with. I was getting the same results with my cast bullets.

[chutestrate]

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[chutestrate]

234819

[Texas by God]

Swap your dies over to a single stage press and see what happens. Your die and shell plate must be misaligned on the Dillon.
Worth a try. It looks like you have chamfered it enough.

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[chutestrate]

So i thought about that, but won't I need to flare the case mouth to accept the slug?

[Coyote3]

Are you using a seater for a round nose slug? Hard to tell, but there might be a little too much flare.

[Sig556r]

Couple of possibilities:
Rcbs seating die combines seating & crimping, its recommended to set it so the crimping wont engage while seating, then crimp separately, preferably using LFCD.
They also come with 2 seating inserts, 1 for FN & another for RN, use FN.
Also, your case mouth expansion seem to be on the wide side, giving much room for the bullet to move prior to being seated, thus the crooked seating. Bell them just enough to start the flat-base bullet without stripping.
Hope my 2-cent helps.
Good Luck

[chutestrate]

I have tried both and it didn't help

[44magLeo]

What size is the expander plug? If to small that makes seating harder, possibly cause your problems.
Leo

[BigAlofPa.]

I had something like that happening when resizing 7.62x54r. But my issue was the pin was to far in.

[cwlongshot]

Looks like too much flair... You need some...not that much. Chamfering the inside case mouths helps me allot. The Dillon flairs in the powder drop, I would do tuning here first. Bullets are crooked, because the short neck has little to keep things straight when flaired so much. If crushing where bullet is seated, might also be from the flair...

YES, a Dillon die will help. I like RCBS dies as a rule, but they don't make a proper 357SIG but Dillon does.

I had many hickups with my first 357 sig loads on a single stage, never did make the transitions to the 550... Thought I might end up where you are. Its done, I have seen and read of many running the cartridge on the 550. Its just not as easy as other calibers to get tuned.

Good luck!

CW

[chutestrate]

Last night I was ready pick up the whole set up and throw it out, but then I took a breath. The Dillon seating die seems to be the logical way to go without breaking the bank. Thank you for the assistance everyone.

[44Blam]

I had a problem like this with my tokarev seating die. What I ended up doing is backing the die out so the crimp didn't engage and set the seat depth deeper to make up for backing the die out. Then I crimp with a crimp die after seating.

[jeepvet]

I know nothing about reloading for the 357 sig and I do not mean to sound like a smart butt. But, if you need some more brass, I have quite a lot of range pickup 357 sig that I will let you have right to get rid of it.

[JeffG]

Looks like way too much case flare.

[edp2k]

There are several other threads on this site that talk about having problems loading 357 SIG and the root cause ended up being the RCBS sizing die.
Going to another brand sizine die (Redding, Dillon, etc.) solved their problem.
Yes, RCBS usually makes great dies, however it appears (according to other's experiences) that in 357 SIG sizing die they screwed up,
and (according to others) ahve not fixed it yet.

I would get another brand of sizing die. Since you are on a Dillon 550 I would get a Dillon 357 SIG sizing die.
The modern Dillon pistol dies are great, and they usually have a double ended seating stem for both RN and TC bullets (pull clip and invert to swap).
Plus their seating stems can be removed/swapped/cleaned in 2 seconds because of the quick clip holding the seating stem in.
Also the Dillon dies have a more radiused entrance hole than some dies made for single stage presses,
so the cartridges self align better on a Dillon progressive.

Also, I concur, way too much case flare.
Also keep in mind that you are using plated bullets, which tend to have a soft lead core,
and probably are less tolerant of misalignment during seating/crimping.
A jacket bullet is stiffer and thus more tolerant of misalignment.

Some guys also have had good results with using a 40 S&W sizing die to size the body
and then using a 357 SIG sizing die to size the neck/shoulder.
More work, but probably better results.

Another thing to consider, maybe your powder funnel (i.e. the item doing the case belling) is a bit undersized in the straight section?
I would measure it. If undersized I would consider getting a powder funnel from the Mr. Bullet feeder website (for got the name, use your google Fu),
which are constructed like a lyman M die, which will help keep you bullets straight when seating.

[scotner]

Random thoughts in no particular order:

The RCBS sizer die did not work out for me because it would not quite size enough to chamber in a P229. I ended up ordering a Redding sizer die, still using the RCBS seater die, Dillon "F" powder funnel and Lee FCD so my setup is about what you are using. Note that my reloads that would not quite fit the P229 chambered and shot great in an M&P 40 (with the S&W 357 Sig conversion barrel) so you may not have that problem.

I cast .357 diameter, powder coat and then size to .3575. When I was using the RCBS sizer I removed the decap/expander altogether. The Redding die does not have one in it either. I use just enough flare to where the base of the bullet will sit on top of the case mouth without falling off.

My seater die is adjusted to seat the bullet and then just pull the case mouth back up close to the bullet. A couple of points regarding this step: Be sure that your shellplate is properly adjusted to prevent excess case movement. Second, as already mentioned, be sure to select a seater plug that fits the bullet properly. The shell plate is what holds the case in place and the seater plug is what aligns the bullet as it starts into the case. A little misalignment either place will allow the bullet to seat crooked.

One more point about the seater die. Since you are using the Lee FCD and you mentioned having adjusted the seated die up and down, be sure that the case is going far enough up into the seater die before the bullet starts to seat. I think I had a problem with this early on because I was thinking that the Lee die was going to do the crimping so all the seater die had to do was seat the bullet. While this is true, the die still has to be adjusted down enough to hold the case centered during seating. Probably should have made this point #1 because this is more likely where you should start.

Final note: Like a lot of 357 Sig reloaders, I size all of my cases on a single stage press with a 40 S&W carbide die. This allows you to run them on the 550 with little or no lube through the 357 sizer. This also decaps the case since as mentioned previously I do not use a decapper/expander in the 357 die. Hope something here helps.

[sukivel]

I would make sure your seat die is not even close to crimping and back way off on that flare. I use just enough flare on a j bullet so it sits upwards.

I don’t think it has nothing to do with your brand of dies, even though Chevy is better than Ford...And I used to be the case crushing king...


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[chutestrate]

Thank you. I have some suggestions to try. I'll be reporting back.

[dkf]

Way too much flare. You want just enough flare so the bullet can be set on without falling off or without shaving. I use the Lee .357sig die set. The RCBS .357sig sizer die for years caused nothing but problems. I don't know if they fixed it yet.

[scotner]

Way too much flare. You want just enough flare so the bullet can be set on without falling off or without shaving. I use the Lee .357sig die set. The RCBS .357sig sizer die for years caused nothing but problems. I don't know if they fixed it yet.

No, they haven't. But the seating die is fine, especially when used in conjunction with the Lee FCD. I loaded 250 rounds with this same outfit this afternoon. Again, the seater die has to be adjusted down enough to keep the case centered when starting to seat the bullet. It will feel like it is starting to crimp, especially with that much flare but it is not. I had the same problem when I started loading this round. I resolved that one early on but fought the sizing die problem for months until I stopped using the RCBS size die. (And you do need to back off on the expander).

[cwlongshot]

I was able to modify my RCBS SIZERS ABILITY to
Produce properly sized brass by sacraficing a shell Holder. :bigsmyl2:

Its now kept in the die box and needed if I use that sizer. Without it, it would not size a case enough for use.

As I mentioned, Good call getting the Dillon die set. They make a proper 357 Sig die. (I have one as well)

CW

[Sig556r]

I was able to modify my RCBS SIZERS ABILITY to
Produce properly sized brass by sacraficing a shell Holder. :bigsmyl2:

Its now kept in the die box and needed if I use that sizer. Without it, it would not size a case enough for use.

As I mentioned, Good call getting the Dillon die set. They make a proper 357 Sig die. (I have one as well)

CW

That's odd, been using Lee for a long time reloading 357sig without hiccups. I even use it to convert 40SW brass which work better with LFCD.
Anyways, if you find a solution to a problem, kudos.

[Boolseye]

I would say that .357 SIG is the pickiest pistol cartridge that I reload. I do it on a turret press (rcbs) with Lee dies, including the .40 sizing die and a Lyman m-die as the expander. The Lee seater die does a great job. I crimp with Lee fcd. The turret press acts as a glorified single stage, as opposed to progressive. I like full control of every stage. I find this cartridge challenges me, and years spent loading simpler cartridges helps me notice the challenges, namely, not much neck to work with and potential for bullet setback. I suggest slowing down and focusing carefully on each stage. Expanding the case enough is very important, since too much resistance in the neck risks a buckled neck. This brings a new problem, however, the bullet being too loose in the neck. I use a strong taper crimp to solve this problem. There are mixed opinions about where this case headspaces, (shoulder vs. case mouth) but I have had no problems with my heavy crimp, and my rounds pass the test of pushing them strongly against the bench with no bullet movement.
I would not toss the rcbs seater die until I had tried it with a properly expanded (and SLIGHTLY flared) case on a single stage press with a well-aligned bullet.
Keep us in the loop. It’s a great round, it just makes you work a little more for it.


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[chutestrate]

Solution is to seat on a single stage. There is goo much wiggle room on the Dillon's shell plate. Only lost 3 cases out 100 tonight. So I'll be depriming, sizing, and priming with my progressive, and charging and seating on my single stage. No need to throw more money at the problem. Thank you for the assistance everyone.

[Boolseye]

Glad to help. It really is a sleeper, that caliber. I think that some of the reasons that it isn’t more popular are discussed on this thread.


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[McFred]

With jacketed bullets I've never flared a single SIG case mouth and have never required a crimp; Roll crimp, Taper or Lee Factory flavor. Just a reasonable chamfer is sufficient to guide a gilded projectile home. A sharp edged case mouth might push up a burr of jacket material, but I've never crushed necks. I checked and my expander ball measures .3533". This has worked fine for thousands of jacket projectiles. I would suggest a larger one for cast as well as a small flare (less than what you have pictured) and a light crimp, only to remove the flare, done as a separate operation.

As suggested above I would verify that the seater stem properly fits the projectile ogive so it pushes the bullet straight.

I've put thousands of Speer and Winchester brass through RCBS dies of 2004 vintage without issue. These cases and dies have worked for 3 separate chambers: a replacement SIG pistol barrel, a factory Glock 31 and a Bullberry Contender barrel uisng a dozen types of bullet nose profiles. The one time the RCBS dies failed me is when I tried to seat a pointy Hornady 180gr Single Shot Pistol bullet into a Sig case. The original seater stem didn't like the long pointy nose. I called RCBS and they sent me 3 more suitable seater stems to try out (on their dime) one of which was drilled deeply and worked great. OP, if you have a poorly fitting stem it can be fixed. If your maker will not help you, send it to me with a sample of your favorite projectile and I'll fix it for you.

To those who've had an issue with an RCBS die I suspect you didn't call the maker and ask for a fix. They've repaired or replaced everything I've every had an issue with at their expense. In terms of customer service I rarely have ever had a better experience. To moan about it on an internet forum a decade or more after an incident is just old codgers grumbling on about fluff who did not afford the manufacturer the chance to correct.

2¢

[cwlongshot]

To those who've had an issue with an RCBS die I suspect you didn't call the maker and ask for a fix. They've repaired or replaced everything I've every had an issue with at their expense. In terms of customer service I rarely have ever had a better experience. To moan about it on an internet forum a decade or more after an incident is just old codgers grumbling on about fluff who did not afford the manufacturer the chance to correct.

2¢

As I said I had to modify my RCBS die, and commented about it, I will reply to your comment about that.

Frankly, you know not of what you speak.

First off, I like RCBS allot and have used them for more then 40 years. I probably have 30 or more of there die sets. Yes, there exceedingly generous and helpful with any problems re loaders have, most times fixing the problem "on there dime".

When my die would not resize the case enough to chamber. I did contact RCBS and they did send me a new die...ON THERE DIME. It arrived identical, dimensionally exact as the first one. So, I modified a shell holder the few thousandths so the case went up into the die enough to correct the chambering problem. I don't seek anyone's approval on this, my die now works and I use it. I have learned that finite comments about absolutes will always be challenged and seldom are correct.

If you would like to read bad mouthing, ask me what I think of most LEE products. Because I have sold them for over thirty years and see first hand the real numbers and how it effects loaders in my area. Many break, don't work or a piss poorly constructed. While other things they make are excellent products that help far more then they bother. Sure they have a warranty, and I can tell you THEY USE IT!

I am not and likely never will "bad mouth" a RCBS product. RCBS them selves had numerous conversations about the lil sig and its head spacing. RCBS believes it should be case mouth. I do not agree, neither does Dillon. Similar deal back some twenty years ago with my 30 & 357 Herretts, they where best served sizing to HS off shoulder AND rim. But most everyone wanted just the rim, cause it had one... Well it had a shoulder too. That's OK, its what makes the world go around. Neither opinion will stop the world from spinnin.

May god bless,

CW

[scotner]

As I said I had to modify my RCBS die, and commented about it, I will reply to your comment about that.

Frankly, you know not of what you speak.

First off, I like RCBS allot and have used them for more then 40 years. I probably have 30 or more of there die sets. Yes, there exceedingly generous and helpful with any problems re loaders have, most times fixing the problem "on there dime".

When my die would not resize the case enough to chamber. I did contact RCBS and they did send me a new die...ON THERE DIME. It arrived identical, dimensionally exact as the first one. So, I modified a shell holder the few thousandths so the case went up into the die enough to correct the chambering problem. I don't seek anyone's approval on this, my die now works and I use it. I have learned that finite comments about absolutes will always be challenged and seldom are correct.

If you would like to read bad mouthing, ask me what I think of most LEE products. Because I have sold them for over thirty years and see first hand the real numbers and how it effects loaders in my area. Many break, don't work or a piss poorly constructed. While other things they make are excellent products that help far more then they bother. Sure they have a warranty, and I can tell you THEY USE IT!

I am not and likely never will "bad mouth" a RCBS product. RCBS them selves had numerous conversations about the lil sig and its head spacing. RCBS believes it should be case mouth. I do not agree, neither does Dillon. Similar deal back some twenty years ago with my 30 & 357 Herretts, they where best served sizing to HS off shoulder AND rim. But most everyone wanted just the rim, cause it had one... Well it had a shoulder too. That's OK, its what makes the world go around. Neither opinion will stop the world from spinnin.

May god bless,

CW

I did not write this but it is so close to my reaction to the "it's your fault" comment that I almost did. I also contacted RCBS regarding my problem with the 357 Sig die and their reply was that i should send it in and they would check to see that it was within spec. That is where the problem is. They do not have a properly designed die. There is nothing gained by paying to return the part and wait to receive an identical useless part. Do not take this the wrong way. I have used RCBS equipment for 35 years now and it is still my favorite brand. I have always had excellent customer support from them. It is just that something is off in the design of this particular die and they have not taken steps to correct it. Google "RCBS 357 Sig die problems" and you will see that it is a common occurrence. I also share your opinion of Lee products and I have not had favorable results from their customer service. I do use their FCD die on the 357 Sig and 300 BLK but have little ude for them otherwise.

[Tackleberry41]

Biggest favor you can do yourself, is the NOE expanders. Without a good flare on that 357 sig case, you will tear up alot of them, plus usually swage the bullets down seating them.

[fredj338]

I load 357sig on Dillon dies. IMO, you have way too much flare. A bullet with a bb will seat more easily, cast or jacketed or plated. Maybe go a bit slower. A Hornady straight line seating die is also helpful, but I do fine with the Dillon setup. BTW, I use 0.357" for cast.
BTW, I do not care what RCBS says about their 357sig dies, they got it wrong & not sure they ever fixed it. It is not a rifle round, doesn't load like a rifle round for best results. They also have the headspace issue wrong. So anyone elses dies will give you less hassle IMO. I have a lot of RCBS stuff, but they are wrong on the 357sig. IT never did, never will headspace on the case mouth when there is a shoulder involved. FWIW, if the sizing die was correct, there would be no need for a fix???

[Sig556r]

OP was just asking for help...escalated to something else pretty quick...
Each has his own way of making things work but not necessarily for another...
Die brands, crimping, flaring, seating are nuances that can be best learned thru experience & not just because google or John Doe said so.
Hope you find the solution to your problem despite the opposing views.
Best of luck
Sig

[BK7saum]

As already said, way to much flare. One check is and a way to put a number to it, is to measure a loaded round then add about 0.002-0.004" to get the diameter needed. All you want to do is open the case enough so that the bullet doesn't shave going in. Try to run a case into the seat die without bullet, there should be no contact or drag on the case. You will have some, I can assure you.

To address the crushed necks. I am concerned that the excessive flare is causing the crushed necks. I can guarantee you that the seating die is having to size them down as the case mouth enters the neck and tries to seat the bullet. That may be what is crushing the necks. I have found seating dies to not be as polished as a sizing die. They dont need to be, the inside of the die should touch the brass except when a crimp is applied.

Crooked bullets. One, you need a seating stem that matches the nose profile to start and keep the bullet aligned. Th as t may be a contributing factor.

I think when you get the crimp reduced/corrected your problems will go away.

Good luck.

[chutestrate]

I'll pass along my experience with the sig on a dillon 550b. The dillon powder funnel for flaring the case is the same as used for 9mm so that is what I've used. It didn't matter what kind of flare the case had. I've mentioned it in other posts in this thread that I have used no flare, little flare, medium flare, and ridiculous flare. Nothing helped. If the bullet stood upright in the case I was able to successfully seat the bullet. If the bullet wobbled then the case would be crushed. There is not enough finger clearance to guide the bullet up far enough to fully support it so it still crushes cases. There is also too much room for the cartridge to move around on the shell plate so if it isn't the bullet failing to line up properly the case can also be a factor.

Problem solved by using a single stage to seat the bullet. So my process is deprime, size, and prime on the progressive. And then drop powder and seat on my single stage. It's a slower process, but at least I can do 3 parts on the progressive. I don't have an issue with the RCBS die using it on the single stage.