To GC or not to GC that is the Question

[Bass Ackward]

I don't ..... think .... we ever hashed this out really. We touch upon it from time to time in posts that somehow become related. How is a guy to know what to order or buy in a mold if this question is not addressed.

So I am curious not only what you use but why and please specify the class of firearm too if you cross over at some point.

[mike in co]

rifle or pistol ???

my 7.5" super redhawk does very well at 1300 plus fps with no gas check on a lyman 429244 gc....260gr with 3/1 ww/lino h2o quenched

and the lbt 280 out of h20 quenched ww is a non gc design....great at 1050 basically a clean gun when done shooting, did good up thru 1225 fps

[beagle]

That's an easy decision. As you stated, we've hashed this out many times before.

You don't need gas checks for peestols at the velocities you're using.

On rifles, if the design calls for a gas check, use one. If you want to use a gas check, get the appropriate mould. If you want a plain base either get a plain base design or else mill out the GC shank.

The bullets designed for a GC will work fine without a GC.....sometimes./beagle

[Leftoverdj]

Volume

I simply am not gonna mess with GCs for something I shoot by the thousand. I am mostly a backyard plinker, and PBs work fine for that. Especially for pistol, I have no need of GCs for 95% of my shooting.

When I use a GC design, it's for rifle and for loads well above the limits of PB bullets.

[carpetman]

I shoot .22 cal 58 grain RCBS around 2000-2200 fps. I ran out of gas checks at one time and loaded some without them. Frankly,it made me wonder why even bother with them,I noticed no difference. I did acquire more checks and use them and really can't say why?

[StarMetal]

Carpetman Ray,

You made me think about that with the 22 cal. We have to admit that the heel of a gaschecked 22 cast bullet isn't a pronounced as say a 30 cal cast bullet. With your finding of firing them both with and without checks makes me wonder if that heel is so shallow indeed that it is just swaged into the rifling or bumped up rather fast and easily upon ignition, where as a much more deeper ledge wouldn't be. What do you think?

Joe

[NVcurmudgeon]

The only GC boolit I ever shot wthout GC was the RCBS .45/70/405. With my 11000-1200 fps loads there was no difference in accuracy and no leading in a Marlin (new) 1895. curmudgeon

[Junior1942]

In my two lever action M94 30-30 rifles and one lever action M92 357 mag rifle, I find the leaded barrel point with plain base bullets to be ~1600 fps. That's with ww alloy, non quenched.

[Bass Ackward]

Hmmmm.

A lot of success stories both ways. But I sometimes think that the answer to the GC question lies in the failures.

Or maybe the better way to state that is that the GC gives you more .... flexibility in metal hardness, powder selection, pressure levels, and thus velocitiy ranges. I also think that there is an advantage for multiple guns in the same caliber, and as my luck would have it, all with different dimentions. Of coarse the counter here is huge, unsized bullets until they are required / loaded. But to me that can be a pain too if I grab the wrong box of ammo. I want to be able to load when it is convienient for me.

You see for me, my success or failure always seemed to revolve around pressure more than a velocity level. I am speaking in generalities here becase some prefer hard bullets, regardless of launch system. But some guys probably don't. Either way though, I can generate 35,000 psi with a fast powder and cause a PB to fail and get less than 1000 fps for my efforts. Or I can run em on up. I have actually had pure lead to 1400 fps with absolutely no leading that the check didn't remove. So I never actually found the ceiling yet. And let's forget all the tricks. Like cookies, wads. and buttons because these .... just seem to be more effort for me than a check. There is a cost to those too if nothing else than your time.

I continue to shoot both ways. But I don't shoot any one thing by the thousands either anymore, so that checks are that big a deal. And I guess my attitude may be shaped by the fact that all my metal is free. People say that the check is a hastle and expensive, but I find that loading PBs to involve more and more extreme brass preparation which can shorten brass life or require annealing sooner and this is another step too. And outside of cartridges with three die sets, I don't use or need M-dies. So alot of time that people make the argument strickly on a cost basis because they think they are saving money or time, actually aren't. Except for the guys that load and shoot outta bushel baskets.

So it appears to me that there is no free lunch. Advantages both ways. Disadvantages too. And the choice you make depends on the limitations that you are willing to accept or for some guys overlook to make them work. People that tend to be .... emotional about this issue, often don't even see the limitations I have listed as such, and I am sure there are more that I haven't mentioned, like cleaning leaded bores.

And for the guys that can have their cake and eat it too by having a GC design and not use the checks, my hats off to ya. As much and many times as I have tried this, my results have been dismal patterns, not groups. And there is no logical reason for my results either. They should theoreticaly shoot.

Any other opinions? Think I am full of it? (No posting Joe :wink: )

[BruceB]

I've also fired thousands of 429244 boolits through .44 revolvers at MAGNUM levels without the gaschecks. Performance was excellent. Even so, I passed the mould along to my brother for his first steps in casting (along with a baggie of Hornady checks). I'm now using the RCBS 44-250KT (plain base) with equal satisfaction. The vast majority of my 358156 boolits to date also have departed the muzzle with bare butts and fine results, and again, I've just converted to an RCBS plain-base design in the 38-150 SWC format. WHY? I dunno...but future 156 loads will probably wear checks. I have a 4-cavity mould for this bullet and it WILL be used, by golly.

I did a direct comparison in one of my '06 loads one day a couple years back, with ten rounds of 311291 fired from 100 yards with gaschecks, and ten rounds without gaschecks, no other differences. The gaschecked boolits grouped nicely, under the 2" figure if I remember rightly, while the no-GC loads sprawled all over the target backer (and some even failed to hit THAT....over two feet, in other words).

In rifle loads with a GC-type bullet, I use the gascheck all the time. If ordering a new rifle mould, anything under .45 caliber (.45-70 in my house) will be gaschecked, unless I trip over a nice .38-55 rifle or something similar.

Handgun moulds will most likely be plain-base types. For my type of handgunning, PB will serve admirably.

[JDL]

I've never tried a gc design without the gc, so don't know how or if it would work in my applications. Most of my rifle loads are pushing the speed limit for unchecked boolits with the exception of plinking loads in my .358 in which case I use the 358156 checked.
I do load most of my .45-70 loads with plain base boolits but, in my younger days, when pushing the velocity envelope,have placed the check upside down when seating the boolit. Never had a leading problem when using this method and accuracy was always decent enough for hunting.-JDL

[Maven]

As gas checks become more expensive, I have to think twice about their use. I think Leftoverj & BruceB are on the right track and they contradict what Al Miller has written several times in "Handloader"about non-GC accuracy. Even C.E. Harris has begun to rethink the high velocity (and I presume GC'ed CB) approach. As for me, I use them in my rifle cals. from .243Win. to 8mm Mau. with one exception (below) because I have no PB molds for same. On the other hand, in my .45-70, I use PB bullets exclusively and get excellent accuracy and little, if any leading in a microgroove bbl. with either black- or smokeless powder. Ditto my .357mag. revolvers (wi. Ly. #358429 & RCBS #38-150) but I seldom use more than 6.5gr. Unique or 10.5gr. WC 820 either. I must admit there is a slight amount of leading around the forcing cone with these: If I heat treated it would probably go away. On the other hand, I have a LBT 180gr. mold that requires a GC and it has almost never leaded wi. the GC in place and heavier loads. (Maybe I should try it sans GC?)

The exception I spoke of involves the use of Ly. #321232, a PB tapered CB made for the 32-20 (looks like a Loverin wi. #311041's nose) sized to .314" for my SKS. Using 14gr. WC 820 & Felix Lube, I got no leading at all and very good accuracy @ 50 yds. I want to retest this with a different target at both 50 and 100 yds., but when you consider this CB isn't for the SKS, I'm rather pleased with its performance. On the other hand, the LBT mold I have for the SKS requires a GC and groups a bit better with little or no leading. Btw, if you coat the front of the gas piston with white lithium grease or possibly even a graphite spray, you can wipe away any accumated Pb deposit/powder fouling with ease. ...Maven

[JohnH]

I thought a bit about this, that may not mean much, could depend on how much you have to think with.

20 years ago my first attempts with cast bullets in a 30-06 were abysmal at best. I was using an RCBS mold (don't remember the #) it cast good bullets easily, but my expectations were out of proportion and I began by loading what was probably a 2200 fps load or so with a WW760. My cases weren't properly trimmed and being cock sure that a crimp was needed....well I proceeded to bulge the shoulder just enough that some cases wouldn't chamber. Of course I didn't find this out till I was at the range. I kept trying to use the 760 because, well, I had it. Being quite the neophyte, I had read about all the horrors of ringed and burst barrels from pistol powders and fillers so was adamant that I wouldn't use them. I eventually gave up on all but the 45-70, it seemed to shoot good with cast and the powders, 3031 and Reloder 7 pushed 'em out the barrel with little loading hassles.

Most of my casting in those days became centered around handguns, a 32 Mag, a 38 Special a 45 Colt and a 1911 in 45 ACP. I used PB's as I didn't find any need for gas checks and like DJ was loading by the bushel basket.

About 2 years ago I began to try again with a couple of rifles in pistol chamberings, one in 44 Mag another in 357 Maximum. In both I was using plain base bullets and was not meeting with great success at speeds of 1400 fps or so, my groups were hovering around 3-4" at 50 yards. I began to cut back on the velocity and found happiness at 825 -900 fps with consistant 1.5" groups.

Then happiness really smiled on me, I found that in my 44 I was shooting bullets that were .002" undersize. I quit sizing to 430, began to simply pan lube 'em and my groups shrank again. 8 of 10 shots will generall, touch in a group of about 1" sometimes all 10 sometimes a couple of flyers which I attribute to simple visual inspection that has a loose standard.

Trying out some of the 180 Lee custom bullets that were sent to my to give a try, I found them to shoot nice 1.5" groups from the Maximum at 50 yards at 1900 fps or so.

The Lyman 264 GC will do 1900 fps from my 38-55 and group at 1.5" and the Lee 250 RF which is a plain bevel base shoots nice 1" groups at a sedate 900 fps.

Pressures in these loads run from 12,000 or so to 40,000 (a guess based on charge weight and velocity.

I have a nice .310 bullet with a .300 bore rider that will NOT shoot above 1200 fps in my 30-30 which has a bore of .307 and a groove of .310 Pushing to speeds above 1200 opens groups dramatically (some might call 'em patterns) and by 1800 fps I get heavy gray washes on the barrel and muzzle with the bullets disappearing, I don't know where they go.

My point is that it ain't as simple as to gas check or not. How good is the bore? What velocity and pressures are you trying to run? What is the load intended to do? I load the Lee 357-158 RF to 900 fps in the Maximum and use it to ring a peice of stell at 50 yards. The steel is app 8" long and 5" high in an oval shape, a good representation of the shoulder/lung area on a deer. I figure if I can hit this 100% of the time off hand I'm good for the hunt. Me, the rifle and the load do this consistantly enough that I feel confident going out to shoot an animal. Occasionlly the load will throw a 2.5" group off the bench, but I'm literally casting 'em and shooten 'em. But I get completely different results if I don't quench the bullets from the mold. The air cooled bullet shoots about 3" and this is enough to make me an 80% hiter on the steel......go figure Would a gas check help that situation? probably, but then we are completely away from the point of a cheap load that I can shoot 100 per week of and not concern myself with the cost.

The first thing that must be addressed is how does the bullet fit the bore, or will it even. If the bullet don't fit, no amount of gas check will make it shoot.

Somehow I got the idea in my head that this was to be directed toward helping a new caster to choose a design. I went a little overboard on my answer but hope this still fits or helps out someway...

Perhaps a better list of questions to answer in helping someone new to casting is this.....What do I know now that I wish I had known then?

I wish I had slugged every barrel I ever tried cast in before I tried cast in it

I wish I had found a good alloy and stuck with it (too much playing around, WW with a little tin works just fine)

I wish I had concentrated on good groups not speed till casting, loading and shooting cast were routine

I wish I had read the NRA publication on cast bullets before I ever made my first cast bullet (I have still not read that entire work)

I wish I had not so hastily compared my beginning efforts to those of mature cast bullet shooters I was reading about in the gun rags

I wish I had known that pistol velocities from a rifle case is nothing to sneer about or think little of, that using pistol powders in a rifle case has been SOP for most of a century and while it requires a higher level of attention, it is not magic nor mysterious.

I also wish I had known that 2000 fps from a cast bullet was nothing to sneer at either.

While there ain't no hard fast rules, there are some ought too's, one of these is that the faster one drives a cast bullet, the greater the need will be for a gas check.

I wish I'd had the internet 20 years ago. I've learned more about cast bullets and cast shooting in the last two years that I did in 20 years of stumbling around in the dark on my own.

[45nut]

Nice post John.

Great thread B.A.

[Bass Ackward]

I thought a bit about this, that may not mean much, could depend on how much you have to think with.

The first thing that must be addressed is how does the bullet fit the bore, or will it even. If the bullet don't fit, no amount of gas check will make it shoot.

Somehow I got the idea in my head that this was to be directed toward helping a new caster to choose a design. I went a little overboard on my answer but hope this still fits or helps out someway...



John,

Nice contribution. And good point about bullet fit. Sometimes if a bullet is smaller than the bore, your best option is to shoot a PB. Elmer made a living off of it.

And you are exactly correct. Of all the member here, only a small number post. I am assuming that they are in the aquire mode and thought a thread like this might help. If you can teach two things: what is needed to fit a bullet and how to choose a style, you can put anyone on the path to success.

Thanks for the help.

[felix]

It is indeed hard to add anything significant to the excellent responses here, except for maybe there should be in mind a concrete objective for the gun before any boolit style is selected. Probably the most important criteria for an older person is how the gun, once selected for cast conversion, is going to be shot volume wise. Like visualizing how many outings per year, versus how many rounds per outing. The low volume shots per outing will demand a gas checked non-compromised boolit for the utmost accuracy at the velocity desired. Cost of boolit manufacture should be of no concern. ... felix

[drinks]

I do not use gc's on .38 and .45 pistol bullets, but they are lubed and are less than 900fps, so far, no leading problems.
I use ww+ Tin for all bullets.
I cast .243 to .45 for rifles and gas check everything. bullets that do not have a gc, I turn a gc groove with my little lathe and a square point cutoff tool.
I feel I have better results and am sure the barrels are easier to clean.
I buy some sizer dies, but make whatever size I find I need after slugging the barrels, if they are not readily available.
Don

[Papa smurf]

hay--just read #9 REPLY from BASS AKWARD.
100% agree. just came in from the range
that is just out the back door -lucky ah-tried
for the LAST time to get a boolet to work without
a gas check when the mold was made for one.

[475/480]

I was under the impression that pressure had more to do with leading than velocity,what you think?

Sean

[felix]

Sean, peak pressure = leading, average pressure = velocity. ... felix

[Singletree]

Bass
You are right that in my case, I am in an aquire mode. There just isn't anything in my old head that isn't already known most of the board.
However, I started the cast bullet routine as a boy without the money to buy j-bullets. I picked a mold without the benefit of advice, because it looked like what I thought a bullet should. Most of these were gc designs and shot without gc. Started with handguns,32's, 38's and then 44's. Later rifle calibers were added. I found with a new caliber I would start shooting without gc and if the groups weren't good then a gc was added. I wonder oft times if that big ring of bullet lube where the gc was supposed to go would serve as a gc till velocity got to high. Shooting to find out is my approach. The lube I use is made from T/C bore butter and bee's wax, half and half.

[HickoryCreek]

So if I am shooting a 500 s/w 700 grain bullet going about 1200-1250fps do I need a GC? The velocity is low but the pressure is high.

[felix]

Pressure might not be so high because the bore size is so large. However, peak pressure could be quite high if using a very quick powder. How much lead splatter in the forcing cone area? If too much, then a gas check would be nice. ... felix