mold size question

[bikerbill]

I am in the process of buying a pedersoli quigley .45-110. I want to shoot 540 grain paper patch bullets with black powder. How do I determine what diameter mold to get ? I am new at the BPCR game and could use advice.[smilie=2: bikerbill

[Buckshot]

.................bikerbill, first of all, welcome to the board! A 540gr slug in a 45-110, eh? Ouch, HA! When shooting prone be sure to dig your toes in! Almost any size is easily obtained using a combination of sizing the slug before patching (or not), paper thickness and/or sizing the patched boolit afterwards. Idealy you can spec your boolit OD with a particular alloy with a paper thickness in mind.

Via previous work, I knew that 9lb paper (.002" thick) wrapped twice around the slug will add about .007" when dry and shrunk. I have two 45 cal long range muzzle loading percussion rifles. A Whitworth and a Rigby type halfstock. As a consequence of having to load from the muzzle the patched boolit's OD could be no larger then .450". I ordered a swage die set from Richard Corbin to swage a slug at .443". So .443" + .007" = .450".

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4C9F502AC298773/standard.jpg

LEFT Are 530gr cup based HP's. RIGHT These are 560gr cup based solids. A bit too much of a good thing. They were stabill in the Rigby's 18" twist but were no more accurate at the ranges I was shooting at, so why shoot away all that lead?

The main requirement placed on the paper is that it have wet strength. Or at least enough to last through being stretched as it's wrapped around the boolit. I wouldn't suggest any recycled paper, because like cheap weiners, who knows what's in it? Some good paper and the thicknesses I've found are:

Tracing paper, .0015"
9 lb airmail, .002"
Medium bond (16 lb) .003"
Standard Bond (20 lb) .004"
Heavy Bond (24 lb) .0045"

Those I listed as 'Bond' was merely typing paper. These weren't fancy paper with any cotton content and they worked superbly. The 9lb airmail (onion skin) paper was listed as 25% cotton. It is no longer readily available and I hunted high and low to find more, for some time. Thanks to Montana Charlie who found a source, I bought 2 reams of it from: https://www.thepapermillstore.com/ A suggestion is to read the "Paper 101" sticky at the top of the forum here. When you go to the stationary store or art department looking for paper, take your micrometer with you.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

I patched up these 577-450's using 20lb typing paper. The boolit was the Lee 457-405F used 'as cast' at .457". The paper added almost .015" girth to the boolit so they were just about perfect at .472". The British used a larger OD round nose slug at 480grs, but over the patch they ran .470"/.472". Not having the right sized slug I just used 'fatter' paper. They shoot like a champ.

http://www.fototime.com/B1CE67D4DF0A8B9/standard.jpg

These are some slugs I've used in the hexagonal bore Whitworth. Some patched and some not, some hexagonal and some not. When the 85.0gr charge lights off, it make the round ones hexagonal anyway. Having said that, shooting BP something you'll need to explore is whether to patch to the bore or to the groove. There is a thread going on about that here now.

http://www.fototime.com/826B799366DFB7B/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1A262E95FAAAC0D/standard.jpg

I'd bought a Uberti Hi-Wall in 38-55 from Cimarron. Once I had it I slugged it and did a chamber cast. I found a .3794" groove, and a chamber that would swallow a round loaded with a .382" slug. I made myself a core mould, core bleed and swage dies to create these for paper patching. These used the (used to be) hard to find 9lb paper, so the swage die creates them RIGHT at .375". The paper makes them .382" so they're snug in the throat.

http://www.fototime.com/311EEE1466524F2/standard.jpg

This is the real seating depth for the Uberti. You can see the lands marking the slug and beginning to compress the ppaer. That one in the other photo looked so neat seated way out like that I took the picture that way:mrgreen: However, with BP and patching for the bore you CAN seat them way out into the bore. BTW, if that slug looks like it's nose is a bit lopsided it's because I was experimenting with seating depth and managed to drop it on the floor, HA!

................Buckshot

[montana_charlie]

I am in the process of buying a pedersoli quigley .45-110. I want to shoot 540 grain paper patch bullets with black powder. How do I determine what diameter mold to get ?
Bill,
There are two schools of thought on finished diameter for paper patched bullets.
One school has the bullet ending up at a diameter close to the bore of the rifle, and the other has a patched bullet that approximates groove diameter.

In a typical .45 caliber rifle, bore will be .449" to .452", and groove will be between .456" and .460".

For bullets patched to 'bore' the naked bullet would be .440" to .446".
To get 'groove' bullets the naked one would be .449" to .452".

You can only guess at the size you need (using either method) until you can measure your rifle.

CM

[bikerbill]

thanks for the good advice. this gave me a start and ive had good results so far but still experimenting. bikerbill

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

talk nice to a couple of the folks here and see if you might bargain for four or five patched bullets. In my 45-70 (std Shiloh throat) and my 45-90 (rechambered Shiloh LRE 45-70 with paper patch throat) I am finding that a patched bullet that will go down the barrel (from the muzzle back) with just an easy nudge from a cleaning rod shoots the best with black powder.
A good rule of thumb: bore diameter with black powder, groove diameter with smokeless.

I am getting 2.75" (5 at 200yds) groups with my new BACO Money Patch bullet that casts .441" w/20:1 alloy. A good place to buy paper is www.draftingsteals.com. You can get it in 20 and 50 yd rolls as well as cut sheets.

Rich
Grease cookie 3/16ths sandwiched between .030 Walters fiber wads.

[Don McDowell]

bikerbill, Idaho Sharpshooter told you straight.
Another thing you might want to do is drop into the BPCR section and follow along with FPM111's threads, he and powderburner both have copious amounts of experience with the 110 and paper patch.