Still on about Reloader 7 and the 44-40 cartridge.

[BobInAus]

Outpost75 and Savvy Jack,

Good afternoon gents, from the very few posts I have entered on this forum, I recon you guys would be the experts on Rel 7 and the 44-40 cartridge. My very limited knowledge base comes from yourselves and John Kort. I imagine there are others that also know and have written about Rel 7 and the 44-40 cartridge and I apologise to them, I just haven’t read them yet.

Outpost75, on 07-03-2018 you posted an article about Reloader 7, the 44-40 cartridge and a 200 grain bullet in No.2 alloy:-

"My best results to date in .44-40 loads which are safe to use in older rifles like the 1873 Winchester has been with Alliant RL7, using charges from 24.5-26.0 grains, depending upon bullet weight and case capacity. The objective is to provide a case full of powder which gives base support to the bullet in the same manner in which black powder does. The correct charge is a full case with no airspace, with slight compression; about 1/16" is good. RL7 powder may be further compressed safely, but there is no advantage to doing so.

RL7 was pressure tested and recommended many years ago by Hercules to provide the full-charge black powder velocity using smokeless powder, closely approximating pre-WW2 factory load ballistics in the .44-40. A "nominal case full" of RL7 provides a safe load with a 240-grain lead bullet using 24.5 grains of powder or with a 200-grain lead bullet loading 26.5 grains of powder.

You cannot get enough RL7 into a .44-40 case to get into trouble, as with when you load bullets heavier than 200 grains at an overall cartridge length which feeds in the 1873, increased seating depth reduces powder capacity, so the charge is self-limited by available powder capacity. These loads are also safe in revolvers, although they leave unburned powder particles which can be a nuisance".

I think I mentioned previously I had cast some 43-215C accurate bullets in 50-1 tin lead. They actually weigh in at 220grains. I also cast some 43-245C accurate bullets that weigh 249grains.

The seating depth from base to crimping grove of the 220grain bullet is .350”. The remaining space will accept 26.5grains of Rel 7 which comes to the base of the bullet allowing .019” compression.

The seating depth from the base to the crimping grove of the 249grain bullet is .421”. The space remaining is taken up with 24.5 grains of Rel 7 to the base of the 249 grain bullet which will allow .029” of compression.

As these are a "nominal case full" of RL7, I am thinking of adjusting the loads listed below for my 1873 Winchester before I try them:-
220gr bullet from 25gr (untested) to a max charge 26.5gr rel 7,
249gr bullet from 22.5gr (untested) to a max charge 24.5gr Rel 7.

My previous loads had consisted of max charges of Rel 7 for the:-

Lee mould 213gr 26.5gr
Winchester Repeating Arms Co. mould 200gr 26.5gr also.

Your thoughts on this plan gents would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Bob.

[CamoWhamo]

Hi Bob,

I have chronographed some loads with RL7 and 220gn bullets. The Accurate 43-220C.

These are my results.

23.5gn = 1235fps in a 20" barrel; 1270fps in a 24"

24.5gn = 1290fps in a 20" barrel

[BobInAus]

Hey CamoWhamo,

Thanks heaps. That's real good news. What is the 20"/24" barrel in, a '73? Looks like we're up with the original ballistics for the 44WCF, might be somewhere just over the magic 1300fps in the 24" barrel. I'm going to have to bite the bullet (excuse the pun) and see if I can manage a chronograph in the new year.

Regards

Bob.

[CamoWhamo]

The 20” is my Win 92 and 24” is my 1873.

[Randy Bohannon]

Just to note and compare, I have 2 Win/Miroku 73's both have 24" barrels.Chronographed the following using a 'Lab Radar' chronograph .
215gr Accurate 43-215C 38grs. of O.E. ffg avg. 1400 fps., 40 grs. of O.E. ffg ,1550 fps avg. STD. Dev. 13.9 and 22.3 respectively.

230 gr. Accurate 43-230E 35 grs. Swiss 1.5 1220 fps STD.Dev. 7 35 grs. O.E, ffg 1400 fps STD. Dev. 23.1

What has surprised me was the accuracy of everything I have tried using B/P with very respectable velocities.

This target was shot after finding my bead and settling down with the factory buckhorn sights. Load was Accurate 43-215 sized .429", 38 grs. O.E. ffg. R-P brass. I have found I have to size the bullets when using R-P brass, full size as cast using W.W. brass.

[CamoWhamo]

Hi Randy,

I have a Win/Miroku 1873 with 24" octagonal barrel. I have fitted a Marbles Tang Sight and Lyman 17A globe front sight.

My go-to load is the Accurate 43-220C with 8gn of Unique for 1180fps (I also have a LabRadar). This load will group 5 shots inside the X ring at 55yds off the bench.

I have tried other powders such as RL7 and 2400 and while they deliver more velocity the accuracy is not as good.

I did a cerrosafe cast of the bore and mine is .430.
I can size bullets at .430 for reliable chambering.
If i size at .431 the loaded rounds are a snug sliding fit into the chamber. .432 will not chamber.
I use Starline brass which i have measured to be the same as Winchester brass.

[Savvy Jack]

Not sure I read the post correctly but just in case...DO NOT COMPRESS RL-7 for the Winchester 73'

The following loads are NOT compressed. They may or may not be a case capacity and the bullet may or may not be "resting" on top of the powder BUT are NOT compressed. I can give details later.

I want to re-read all of those reply's again but first I wanted to post what results I have so far.
Highlighted areas are pressures in PSI. Only the Green results should be used in the Winchester 73' with confidence.
233779

I do not have my notes handy so I can not tell you which loads are a case capacity load (no compression).

For use in the Winchester 73' Only a slight compression MIGHT be okay...like Outposts said, no more than 1/16th". That should be about .062". Black Powder loads were compressed as high as .22" (almost a 1/4")...do not replicate this compression.

For use in the Marlin 1894 or the Winchester 92', slightly more compression should not hurt...but also holds no advantage.

[Outpost75]

SavvyJack,

The listed Hercules load with 240-grain lead bullet results in about 1/8" compression, about the same as when loading black.

What pressure data have you measured which contra-indicates compression of RL7 as that has not been my experience.

Now TrailBoss is entirely another matter. Compressing it is a recipe to blow up your gun!

[Savvy Jack]

SavvyJack,

The listed Hercules load with 240-grain lead bullet results in about 1/8" compression, about the same as when loading black.

What pressure data have you measured which contra-indicates compression of RL7 as that has not been my experience.

Now TrailBoss is entirely another matter. Compressing it is a recipe to blow up your gun!

Hmmm, this will give me something to do for the rest of the day but my 240gr RL-7 loads aren't compressed. This is a good challenge!!

[Savvy Jack]

Double Post

[Savvy Jack]

233785

PT-II Test #


08. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
09. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
10. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
16. .05" Compression
17. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
18. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
20. Less powder than #17, air pocket
21. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped over the forward driving band.
37. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped on top of the forward driving band.
39. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped in middle crimp groove.
40. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped inside the forward lube groove.

233797

[Savvy Jack]

I have a handful of 43-215C's cast up @ 217gr

I think I will load them up with compression and see what happens. They may be softer than Bob's 220's so the 217's pressures could be a tad higher but with the added weight of the 220's, they could be equal.
I will try next Saturday to test them.

fun fun fun :-)

Here is my 43-215C with 26.5gr of Reloder-7 no compression. tapping the powder to settle a little that would give me about .0195" compression.
Looking forward to testing these next weekend.
233798

[Savvy Jack]

Bob, what primers do you use? I have CCI-300's, WLP's and a few Remington 2 1/2's

[BobInAus]

Savvy Jack, mostly WLP'S and Federal 150.

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack, mostly WLP'S and Federal 150.

I have 10 215C's loaded up with 26.5gr of Reloder 7 and WLP primers. I couldnt compress all the way into the crimp groove without bad deformation of the soft lead bullet's meplat so they are crimped a tad short. I'll post details next weekend after I test them. Compression may be only about .015"

233802
Cowboy Die roll crimp followed by a Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp to flatten the crimp radius back down to fit the test barrel chamber.

[CamoWhamo]

Savvy Jack, do you find the Redding Profile crimp swages the bullet down?
I tried it for a while and it made the rounds easy to chamber but when i pulled some bullets they were squeezed down by .001 - .002.

[Outpost75]

Savvy Jack, do you find the Redding Profile crimp swages the bullet down?
I tried it for a while and it made the rounds easy to chamber but when i pulled some bullets they were squeezed down by .001 - .002.

I had the internal collar of my Lee Factory crimp honed out to 0.001" under actual chamber neck diameter as determined by chamber cast. As the die came from Lee it was .4425" which did size bullets. I had mine honed to .4465" for my .448" chamber neck. Cartridges come out .447", which chamber fine in my Marlin 1894S and Rossi rifles, as well as my rechambered Ruger Vaquero which John Taylor cleaned up for me, as factory chambers were undersized.

[BobInAus]

Savvy Jack,
You mention;
"Cowboy Die roll crimp followed by a Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp to flatten the crimp radius back down to fit the test barrel chamber".

It looks like you have a test barrel for velocity, pressure etc. Did that cost much to set up?

Bob.

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack, do you find the Redding Profile crimp swages the bullet down?
I tried it for a while and it made the rounds easy to chamber but when i pulled some bullets they were squeezed down by .001 - .002.

Pretty much. I have to for it to chamber in the MGM barrel but don't need it for my rifles. I think it resizes the neck back to .4425 I might could use a 44 magnum profile if they make one, never checked. Outpost has a good fix there if ya need one!!


Savvy Jack,
You mention;
"Cowboy Die roll crimp followed by a Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp to flatten the crimp radius back down to fit the test barrel chamber".

It looks like you have a test barrel for velocity, pressure etc. Did that cost much to set up?

Bob.

Kind of... I checked a few places years ago to test my loads but they want something like $5,000 to test them.

The barrel is from MGM https://matchgrademachine.com/ Wasn't much because it was a bare bones chamber. I failed to get it oversized but glad I didn't for the pressure testing. Oversized chamber would be less pressure.

I also got the Hiskore rifle rest. I hade to weld up the barrel platform myself and add/fit the custom bicycle handle bar clamps. Firing pin was made from old airplane parts were I worked.

The Pressuretrace II Module is about $600 and I might have another couple hundred in the rest....plus a laptop computer I already had.

[BobInAus]

Savvy Jack,
Thanks for that. Sounds like a bit of time/work to get it all together. But I suppose when done its all there for evermore. I'm going to have to settle for just a chronograph.

Bob

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack,
Thanks for that. Sounds like a bit of time/work to get it all together. But I suppose when done its all there for evermore. I'm going to have to settle for just a chronograph.

Bob

Bob, go here: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/pressure-testing scroll down to the bottom of the page. After you download and open...go to the "copy" page. There I have the loads in order by Powder......notice the RL-7 velocities and pressures. Judging a load by velocity (just a chronograph) can be mis-leading with this cartridge. It's hard to load to hurt a Marlin 94, Winchester 92'....but it could hurt a Winchester 73', Henry or Winchester 66'. I wish I had the money and heart to purposefully blow up a 73'....I would test one! We all know the 73' replicas are chambered for the 44 Magnum with no apparent changes to the guts and use modern materials rather than the old 73' weak metals.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

SavvyJack,

The listed Hercules load with 240-grain lead bullet results in about 1/8" compression, about the same as when loading black.

What pressure data have you measured which contra-indicates compression of RL7 as that has not been my experience.

Now TrailBoss is entirely another matter. Compressing it is a recipe to blow up your gun!

I know that I was most likely using different components , but......Starline Brass and a Desperado Cowboy bullets 240 grains .430 bullet crimped in the crimp groove, with the max load listed in my Lee and RCBS manuals of 23.5 grains of Reloader 7 is about a 95% capacity load.

[Savvy Jack]

233785
233797

As can be seen with the bullets in the photo, the seating depth can dictate how much powder will fit for a case capacity load. Although not photographed, some 240gr bullets do sit deeper/shallower than others. Notice for some reason that the Lee 3 Crimp (correct name unknown) bullet has a much high pressure than other 240's with similar loads. However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!! IF this is correct, I sad IF....any RL-7 sould be good for the 73's. I plan on testing more of those too!!

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
Thanks again, Bob.

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack,

Do we know which replica Comp. makes the 44 magnum in the 1873?

Regards
Bob.

[Outpost75]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
Thanks again, Bob.

BobInAUs

Radial copper crusher pressures measured in c.u.p. do not equate directly to piezoelectric psi measurements, and the difference here is not significiant as it is probably less than the test sample standard deviations of the ammunition.

[Savvy Jack]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
Thanks again, Bob.

That would be correct. 11,000psi is equal to 13,000cup in this case per SAAMI testings BUT 14,000psi is certainly higher than 13,000cup.
I need to test those black powder loads again to make sure the results were correct but those ten shots were consistent.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAAMI-Z299.4-Centerfire-Rifle-Approved-12-14-2015.pdf
Page 21 CUP results and page 33 Transducer results

Regarding CUP ratings in manuals, while the correlation between CUP and psi is too poor for reliably converting one unit to the other over a range of chamberings, within a single chambering the conversion by the ratio of the CUP and psi maps within the SAAMI system is going to be close enough for practical work. That is, 11000 psi divided by 13000 CUP is 0.846 psi/CUP for the 44-40, so you can take the CUP numbers in the Lyman Manual and multiply them by 0.846 to get a reasonable expectation of psi. Conversely, dividing psi by that same number will come close to CUP." ~Uncklenick

I have not tested that theory with my strain gauge results yet!!!

[ReloaderFred]

Hey Savvy Jack,

Do we know which replica Comp. makes the 44 magnum in the 1873?

Regards
Bob.

BobInAus,

Uberti makes the '73 in .44 Magnum.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Savvy Jack]

Sorry I'm late!!

https://www.uberti-usa.com/1873-rifle-and-carbine

[BobInAus]

Does anyone know if the Lee Shaver toggle / link pins could be used in an 1873 (circa 1892) to increase the pressure (within reason of course) of the 44-40 with heavy bullets?
Bob.

[indian joe]

Does anyone know if the Lee Shaver toggle / link pins could be used in an 1873 (circa 1892) to increase the pressure (within reason of course) of the 44-40 with heavy bullets?
Bob.

That still leaves the soft iron frame - soft steel bolt - soft barrel - 120 years worth of wear and metal fatigue ----why risk it for 150FPS ??

[Outpost75]

That still leaves the soft iron frame - soft steel bolt - soft barrel - 120 years worth of wear and metal fatigue ----why risk it for 150FPS ??

Heed this man's advice. He knows of what he speaks!

[Savvy Jack]

:goodpost:

[BobInAus]

How about in an 1873 uberti 44-40?
Bob

[Outpost75]

How about in an 1873 uberti 44-40?
Bob

It isn't a matter of poor metallurgy. The 1873 Winchester, whether old or new is a weaker, black powder design.

PERIOD!

If you try a high altitude HALO jump with a WW2 era T10 parachute you are probably going to die!

[Savvy Jack]

Bob,

The Late John Kort posted these back in 2016.


AS THEY SAY..... "A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS" and here are pics that indicate that a barrel has let go and the ACTIONS ARE SILL INTACT!! For you non engineering types, the cartridge locks itself somewhat in the chamber which lessens the rearword thrust on the bolt. I did a test similar to Trailrider (Thank you) and found that the case head did not contact the bolt upon ignition and that only the primer did.

From the recent issue of Winchester Collector - 1873 Barrel obstruction

234338

234339

The bolt is not the weak link in this case, its the strength of the barrel material. What ever amount of pressure caused this hole, wasn't enough to break the toggle link.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,57837.25.html

[BobInAus]

Savvy Jack,

Thanks for the that link. It is frightening and brings to light a lot of issues with pressure. Having said that, what is Uberti doing with their 44mag.

Bob.

[indian joe]

Savvy Jack,

Thanks for the that link. It is frightening and brings to light a lot of issues with pressure. Having said that, what is Uberti doing with their 44mag.

Bob.

Bob ----Jack
The famous winchester overload story on the 1876 rifle (which I never really believed the details of BTW) and also from what I understand a modern 76 blowup by a feller they christened shrapnel ---- in both cases the action held and the barrel blew just in front of the reciever
The winchester "test" was a barrel obstruction + overload using blackpowder and multiple stuck boolits
Shrapnel .....dont know but rumour says likely a double smokeless charge.

Have seen numerous farm rifles in my country ringbulged near the muzzle from mud wasp nests - from the olde 22 up to a 22/250 - this time of year only need to leave a rifle in the open for a couple days

[Savvy Jack]

The famous winchester overload story on the 1876 rifle (which I never really believed the details of BTW)

What story is that Joe? I don't think I have herd of it yet...other than what you just described.

Here is a 76 that did not survive...not sure why...author said he thought smokeless powder....looks awfully clean to be black powder.
234361

234362

[indian joe]

What story is that Joe? I don't think I have herd of it yet...other than what you just described.

Here is a 76 that did not survive...not sure why...author said he thought smokeless powder....looks awfully clean to be black powder.
234361

234362

you need glasses mate ! :shock:thats an 86 not a 76 - the '86 is a helluva strong action
still if you look at yr second picture - she blew the underside of the barrel where its thinnest cuz of the cutout for the magazine tube - not a lot of metal there in those big winchester actions - even less if its one of the big case rounds (348, 50/110, 45/75, 50/95)

Winchester supposedly did a destruction test on the 1876 prior to releasing it - they kept stacking extra powder and heavier boolits in (multiples as barrel obstructions) - then took one side linkage out till finally it blew - same place as in your picture - the supposedly weak toggle action held. This was the era of the covered wagon snake oil salesman and Ollie Winchester was a shirt salesman in a previous life - I dont doubt they did run the test till the gun blew - just wonder whether they told the whole unadulterated truth about it??

What is interesting is that the toggle guns seem to blow at the point in your picture (underside of barrel) NOT down the back end where the "weak toggle linkage" is - unless its an out of battery discharge and then the tendency is for the action to open rather too fast and the firing pin attempts to exit to the rear. (Some Ubertis had a skinny little cross pin was all that retained the firing pin in the bolt body)

[Savvy Jack]

you need glasses mate ! :shock:thats an 86 not a 76 -

lol, ooops, I knew that!!!! I had 86 in my brain

[Savvy Jack]

Bob,

I am tapering off on posting my results. Even if they are not accurate, they seem consistent and I feel comfortable using my data as a guideline.
Below is an updated report on my Reloder 7 tests.

Note the pressures for the .425 dia. Winchester bullets as well as the pressures for the .427 dia shank (.429 forward driving band) for the 43-208A.

I did manage to test a few with slight compression that seem manageable.

I use CCI 300 primers and Starline brass unless noted.

235180

235181

235182

235183
Here is an example of the data I keep in my books. This one is a High Pressure IMR-4227 load.