Which one is smoking...

[jdgabbard]

Well, I went to the range today. A beautiful day down here. It was sunny, not to hot, not too cold. I just knew everything was going to be perfect. I had loaded up about 500 .38spl cases with 158g SWCs from Meister Bullets on top of 4.0g of Unique with CCI 500 primers. And let me tell you what. As soon as I began pulling the trigger I noticed something horrible.

First off, I don't know whether it was the Unique or the lube, but one of the too was smoking! A puff of (somewhat blue in color - the lube is blue) smoke out of the end of the barrel with every pull of the trigger. It was somewhat neat, because I kinda felt like I was shooting black powder. But after a while became just absolutely annoying.

Next thing was the primers. I know for a fact that none were exposed to oil or moisture by me. But I had about 8-10 that refused to fire on the first shot. Most would fire the second time they were struck, but 1-2 had to be hit three times. So after I use up the last 400 I have left I switching to something else.

The load shot fairly accurate, probably would have been better had I been a better shot. But what could I say, it was all the smoke clouding in the air. I'll put it this way, the muzzleloader guys at the other end of the range had some competition when it came to the size of the cloud.

Lastly, this was the first time I had used Unique. And I will say, that it has to be one of the dirtiest powders I have used. My revolvers were covered in soot. When I would eject the cases I would notice a good bit of un/partially burned powder spilling out onto the table in front of me.

So several questions. First has anyone had problems with Unique being a little bit of a dirty burner? And Second, which do you think was smoking. The powder, or the lube?

Thanks a bunch.

[billyb]

what lube do you use? some lubes smoke more than others. havent used unique for several years.unique is a dirty power. i use 231 in my 45acp,40s&w,9mm,38spl. i use lars carnuba red, works good, smokes little. Bill

[454PB]

I can't answer your question, but Unique is no more smokey than other powders. The fact that you had so many FTF's would make me wonder if there is a contaminant of some kind in the rounds. From your post, it doesn't sound like the loaded rounds were exposed to heat.....where they? I've seen similar problems with loaded rounds left in a car that reached 140 degrees sitting in the hot sun. The boolit lube will contaminate both the powder and the primers if the rounds get hot enough.

[MtGun44]

Most revolver FTFs are either a too light mainspring or primers not
fully seated. Many S&Ws have been seriously lightened and are
very iffy on harder primers.

As to smoke, often atmospheric conditions enhance the smoke from
certain lubes. Was it a very humid day and calm wind? Most of
the time the smoke is very quickly carried away and dissipated and
you don't notice it.

I never saw any unusual smoke with Unique.

Bill

[Buckshot]

...............Just like Hoppe's #9, there's nothing like catching the occasional whiff of Javalina (NRA 50/50) to get the gun genes all stirred up :-) An afternoon shooting several hundred 38 Special WC loads lubed with Javalina will have the ole K38 ALL gunked up!

Don't recall any issues with Unique. One of my favs. Didn't they come out with a "Newer mo'betta cleaner Burning" version a couple years ago?

.................Buckshot

[dwtim]

Is this new Unique? Didn't they raise the NG content? A few wafers in the case is not unusual. Yes, it's sooty, but I would rather deal with this than other fouling--it's my experience that the light, fine coating is easier to remove than the brown stuff that's left behind by some ball powders.

I've never had Unique smoke in a j-word bullet load; in fact, it tends to produce a muzzle flash with just about anything. I'd say it's the lube. My softer lubes tend to smoke a lot, which I admit does get annoying.

[Bass Ackward]

I have shot a lot of Unique over the decades. The newer version removes the pine tar that was used back then with a more modern chemical used to control burn rate. But that wasn't your problem.

You were using commercial bullets that probably had to be at least 15 BHN. Using only 4 grains of Unique, was only going to generate 9,700 psi with a perfect seal. Your bullets didn't obturate with that low pressure to seal, so you never got anywhere close to that pressure level. Proof is the flakes that you saw. Any powder that doesn't burn, has no chance of burning clean.

What can you do? You can increase your bullet diameter if you are going to shoot this slow in the future so that your bullet doesn't have to obturate. But your stuck with what you have for now.

You can go to Bullseye or faster for this velocity range so that the pressure will be a little higher and faster at this velocity level to try and obturate.

Any chance of increasing your neck tension and using a heavier crimp? Belling your cases excessively loosens neck tension.

CCI's tend to be a hard primer. Try getting some Federals (softer cup) to ensure better ignition. Check your tension screw at the bottom of the grip frame in the front and make sure it isn't backing out on you, assuming this was a S&W. And every few years, change that spring. New one is $5.

The easiest thing to do if you don't want to change much is to increase powder charge. 5.5 is supposed to be max. That will seal your bore with the hard bullets and burn the powder. If you don't want to increase charge, seat deeper and crimp over the front band or olgive. That will raise pressure too, but not create much more velocity.

Get an LED pen light from WalMart and check for leading at both ends. Shine the light in the end that you are looking, NOT from the opposite side. Since you didn't seal, dang good chance you blew off your lube before the bullet started moving. If so, you got lead.

[Thin Man]

If your ignition problems are caused by the revolver (not the ammo), you have several areas to inspect to find the cause. Leaf (flat) mainsprings can lose tension over time and are easily replaced. If the flat spring is held in tension by a strain screw, replace that as well. I have found several "former law enforcement duty revolvers" with short strain screws. This was the users' way to reduce trigger weight that could not easily be seen, when the agency's armorer would instantly see any modification to the mainspring. If the hammer is powered by a coil spring, remove it to determine whether both ends are the same - open or closed coil. It may have been shortened by a former user. Again, this is a replacement issue. If you can open the action, look for indications of binding, such as curved lines or scars on either the frame side or the sideplate. Match these scars with the internal part that would contact the damaged area, have a knowledgable person make adjustments to eliminate this binding, test again for proper ignition. If you bought this firearm used, by all means have it opened up and completely cleaned. The far majority of the revolver problems I have encountered related to the system being dirty or dry or both. Most machines don't work well when either of these conditions are present.

[Bret4207]

Unique isn't a real clean burning powder usually, but a bigger/softer boolit, a heavier crimp or slightly deeper seating can help.

[Boerrancher]

I agree with what Bass said. I rarely use any other powder in handguns but Unique, and everything you have described is a sign of not having enough pressure/using too light a powder charge, or a powder/primer contamination with lube.

As for just the primer problem, I have gotten to where I will only shoot Winchester, Federal, and Wolf brand primers. I have had too many Failure to Fires with Remington, and CCI's in the last couple of years. There is a reason why the Military dropped their contracts with Remington and CCI. I have nearly 700 Rem small rifles that I can't do anything with other than target practice with because I have a 4% F T F rate with them, and 500 CCI Large Pistols that are the same way they are a bit better only a 3% FTF rate on those.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[jdgabbard]

Well I guess it just must be the lube. I was given these bullets, and i don't know what their using on them. I have used the same brand before, and had few problems with them. And yes it was a bit humid. But it was nice and breezy.


I have shot a lot of Unique over the decades. The newer version removes the pine tar that was used back then with a more modern chemical used to control burn rate. But that wasn't your problem.

You were using commercial bullets that probably had to be at least 15 BHN. Using only 4 grains of Unique, was only going to generate 9,700 psi with a perfect seal. Your bullets didn't obturate with that low pressure to seal, so you never got anywhere close to that pressure level. Proof is the flakes that you saw. Any powder that doesn't burn, has no chance of burning clean.

What can you do? You can increase your bullet diameter if you are going to shoot this slow in the future so that your bullet doesn't have to obturate. But your stuck with what you have for now.

You can go to Bullseye or faster for this velocity range so that the pressure will be a little higher and faster at this velocity level to try and obturate.

Any chance of increasing your neck tension and using a heavier crimp? Belling your cases excessively loosens neck tension.

CCI's tend to be a hard primer. Try getting some Federals (softer cup) to ensure better ignition. Check your tension screw at the bottom of the grip frame in the front and make sure it isn't backing out on you, assuming this was a S&W. And every few years, change that spring. New one is $5.

The easiest thing to do if you don't want to change much is to increase powder charge. 5.5 is supposed to be max. That will seal your bore with the hard bullets and burn the powder. If you don't want to increase charge, seat deeper and crimp over the front band or olgive. That will raise pressure too, but not create much more velocity.

Get an LED pen light from WalMart and check for leading at both ends. Shine the light in the end that you are looking, NOT from the opposite side. Since you didn't seal, dang good chance you blew off your lube before the bullet started moving. If so, you got lead.

I do have the "cleaner burning" Unique. And I may try bumping up the charge to about 4.5g. And seeing if that works. Actually I inspected my bore at the range several times. And I didn't any issue with leading. I was easily keeping all shots in the 10 ring at 15 yards, so accuracy degrading wasn't an issue either.

The revolvers were those in my avatar. A mod 65 Smith, a SP 101, and a Taurus 85 Ultralite. I haven't ever had any issue with the Smith FTF before today. And its not shot a lot. The SP-101 had the same problem and it has MORE then enough strength for the primer. As does the mod 85 Ultralite Which is only about 4 months old and has been shot about 3 times. So I don't think that weak springs are really the issue here.

As for contaminates I do not see where they would have come from. I am very careful when loading. And the ammo hasn't see above 73 degrees, except for while I was at the range. And it still had a comfy seat in the shade.

[Boomer Mikey]

Check for high primers/dirty primer pockets; Winchester and Federal primers have softer cups making them easier to ignite. The Ruger certainly has enough mainspring to do the job.

You didn't mention the diameter of the bullets but I go along with the majority in saying the load didn't develop enough pressure to burn the powder well. Low pressures blow by an undersize bullet base (no obturation) and melt the lube. If there was obturation and a seal at the bullet's base most of the lube would be left in the bullet's lube groove and end up down range instead of being released in a cloud of smoke.

Bullseye, Titegroup, and other fast powders would work better to kick those hard bullets in the butt; improving the situation.

Boomer :Fire:

[Lloyd Smale]

was it a blackhawk or another ruger handgun. I wont use cci primers in any handgun load other then there 350s for mag loads. In the guns i use 350s in i will even sacrifice a little trigger pull to insure there going to be hit hard enough. Most single actions will fire them though unless the hammer spring has been tampered with. Its DA guns that give me the biggest headache with them. Any competition loads i load use fed primers exclusively, same with self defense ammo. I cant afford a misfire in either of those cituations. Bass gave the best answer. You probably need to bump up your pressure a little but bottom line is that cast bullets smoke and unique is a little smokier then most powders but no more then bullseye. I like soft lubes and smoke when shooting is something i just have to live with.

[yondering]

What Bass said, but also this: Unique is smoky at low pressures. If you were seeing "unburned" powder (which was probably not "unburned", but not completely consumed) flakes, the pressure was pretty low.
Your primer situation makes me suspect weak ignition even with the ones that worked first time. The amount of heat/pressure generated by a primer does vary with the force of ignition; if these weren't getting hit hard enough, or were too hard or seated out too far, ignition could be weak.

The combination of weak ignition, low powder charge, and hard possibly undersize bullets = smoke. This can happen with a lot of powders at low pressure, but is especially noticeable with Unique. I haven't noticed any significant smoke with Unique in normal pressure loads.

All the above suggestions were good. Bump the powder charge up, better primers, and softer/ better fitting boolits will all help. Otherwise, use a faster powder that will build more pressure.

[44man]

Bass laid it out nicely.
Any time a primer will fire with the second or third strike, the mainspring is the cause. If it will not go off at all with many strikes, the primer is at fault.
Dirty primer pockets or not fully seating also will do it because the firing pin has to finish the seating and loses force.
I use over power Wolfe variable power springs in my Ruger's and BFR's. The mainspring has no control on trigger pull unless you have a Redhawk or similar setup where the same spring is used for both the trigger and hammer. Then it is a difficult job to balance enough hammer fall and still get a light trigger but it can be done without reducing the hammer fall much. Metal work is in order.
I have no problems getting 1-1/2#, creep free trigger pulls with over power springs. ( My BFR 45-70 is 19 oz.) I used to change my SRH mainspring once a year when I shot silhouette because groups would start to open. The Wolfe springs cure that.
Even the S&W in double action can be made a joy without fooling with the mainspring.
A good gun should fire ANY primer unless it is a poor design or has been fooled with. (Not counting bad primers or military hard ones.)
If you want to see how sensitive the primers we use are, load any of them in an SKS or AK and enjoy the full auto fire from slam fires. I have had to spring many firing pins so they can be used safely.
By the way, do NOT try to get as light a trigger pull on your Ruger SA or BFR's unless you can make a new, longer transfer bar that will cover the whole pin at full cock. You need to know what you are doing.
The smoke might be too small of a boolit, not enough case tension like Bass said. Not much to be done with bought boolits.

[jdgabbard]

Any time a primer will fire with the second or third strike, the mainspring is the cause. If it will not go off at all with many strikes, the primer is at fault.
Dirty primer pockets or not fully seating also will do it because the firing pin has to finish the seating and loses force.


I can assure you, this is not the cause. The SP-101 has more than ample power to set off the primer.

The boolits are all .358 in diameter. Out of three different revolvers they all smoked the same. Now they MAY be undersized. But I know for fact that the primers are seated deep enough. I hand inspect every case, and hand prime each primer. Contamination, maybe. Bad lot, maybe. Not seated deep enough, not the issue.

I am thinking that the issue is probably low pressure. However, I didn't get much, if any, leading. The smoke was blue in color. Think about a car whose cylinder rings are worn out....the puff of smoke you get at startup. That is kinda like what I was seeing coming out of the barrel and cylinder gap.

[44man]

If it takes more then one strike to set off a primer, something is wrong. It could be a bad batch of primers and if it is, that could also cause the unburned powder and the smoke.
We have to list all causes here. There is no other way.
You just have to tell us what it isn't so we can look farther.
If you feel the hammer fall is good, we can eliminate it. You seat primers properly so that goes too. Now we are left with the primers themselves. Next step is a different primer.
It is a step by step process so don't feel we are getting on you. You have to help us too.
Your boolits also sound good for the diameter.
How is the case tension on the boolit? That won't cure the poor ignition from bad primers but will aid powder burn with good ignition.
My last post was aimed to assure those that think the mainspring has to be lightened for a good trigger pull, that it is not so, a general answer only. Poor ignition is a big cause of bad accuracy. Just because a gun fires, does not make it right.

[targetshootr]

The new Unique let my guns feeling greasy so I switched to Universal. Much cleaner burning and load info is almost identical.

[monadnock#5]

Did you wash and rinse your cases with water at some point?

[pjh421]

How big are the throats?

Paul

[mooman76]

Unique is a dirty powder that doesn't burn clean for me anyways but I still use it because it is a good powder and usable in so many applications. I don't recall a big smoke issue but it is usually windy where I shoot and I am used to BP anyway. I have heard though Unique burns allot cleaner under full house loads and I have also heard when it is combined with some lubes specifically LLA it is smoky and burns dirtier.

[AzShooter]

Cool and humid would make your ammo smoke much more than normal. Each year at the IRC ( International Revolver Confederation) championships shooters wait until mid morning or afternoon to shoot the most difficult stage, The Standards because their guns produce so much smoke it's hard to see the targets through it.

If you shoot later in the day there is no problem. It doesn't matter what lube you use, lube smokes.

Primers, either sit the case on a flat top like a piece of glass to make sure they are flush or .002 below flush, use a Lee priming tool to make sure they are below flush or make sure your strain screw hasn't backed out any.

[jdgabbard]

The boolits have a pretty good crimping groove. I've been roll crimping them untill the case is completely seated in the groove. I think putting much more pressure on it is going to end up sizing down that section of the boolit.

Yes I usually wash my cases. However, I let them dry out in the sun for several days before i load them up with primers. And like I said before, I hand inspect each case to ensure that they are all the same length, primed, dry, ect...

As for humidity I wasn't THAT bad. It was a little humid, but I think it was due to having had a good sprinkle the night before. I got to the range about 2:00pm and stayed till about 6:30. So its not like it was real early with a dew.

[dwtim]

The maximum listed load listed for new Unique is usually around 4.7 grains for 38 Special and a 158 grainer. See here (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Pistols%20and%20Revolvers&gtypeid=1&weight=158&shellid=26&bulletid=30), and in the Speer manuals. Both of these data sets are with CCI 500 primers.

I have loaded 4.5 grains with styles LY358477 and H&G 51; it seems to burn well and produce acceptable accuracy. Unfortunately, these bullets were commercially cast from WW alloy (that is too hard IMO), and using a lube that was too hard, so they left light lead fouling in the bore, (and a deposit of lube on the target.) These loads were tested in a DW 12, a S&W 686, a S&W 67, and a S&W 442. The bullets were sized at .358", and the cartridge received a heavy crimp.

I looked at my data, and to be honest, I didn't even bother with 4 grains; I started at 4.3 according to my logs. I don't remember what I was thinking at the time, but I was probably looking at Alliant's recommendation to reduce by 10 percent for a starting load.

[Ricochet]

This afternoon I shot an old M91 Mosin with both lubed cast boolits and jacketed bullets over the same modest load of IMR 7383. The boolits put out a huge puff of smoke, the jacketed ones only a little. The boolits had been tumbled in LLA, then dipped to fill the grooves with my homemade lube. Sometimes the waxy lube smoke reminds me of the smell of a new box of Crayola crayons.