case cleaning as lead control

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've done a fair bit of reading here on lead dust, and I have concluded that one of the biggest hazards comes from tumblers due to the fact that priming compounds are made from Lead Styphnate.

So I'm thinking of switching to a liquid-based cleaning method. One of the things I have not seen is discussion of using phosphate soaps for binding the lead. Way back when I had youngsters and an old house the county health folks gave us a "lead cleaning kit" which contained a phosphate soap they said would help bind the lead dust around windows.

Is there any truth to that? Is it worth getting TSP to use to clean cases? Does the phosphoric acid work just as well?

[Conditor22]

I agree with you.
I believe that Dry vibrating and de-priming are the 2 stages of reloading that are the most hazardous to your health. I also switched to wet tumbling a long time ago. I have been considering getting my brass wet first the depriming to cut down on airborn lead from the primmers.

[tazman]

I find this topic interesting and will follow it. I don't know enough about this aspect to have an opinion.

[Dusty Bannister]

Just to add to the information:
"Modern cartridges use lead styphnate or a similar lead based compound as a priming compound. These primer are non corrosive, but do create lead dust (be it very small amounts) when a cartridge is fired. Diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) is a priming compound that is said to be lead free and when used in ammunition that does not include lead bullets is said to be Green or lead free ammunition.
what is cartridge primer compound? | Yahoo Answers
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111007161246AAUea7A"

Perhaps the primers are just part of the process in producing lead contamination?

[gwpercle]

How do you safely dispose of the lead contaminated water....you don't want to pour in down the drain or on the ground. The lead would contaminate the drinking water...right ?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Perhaps the primers are just part of the process in producing lead contamination?
Not sure what you mean by "just part of"?

Are you questioning why worry about a tiny bit of lead styphnated priming compound when we're shooting lead bullets?

It's a fair question - Provided you've loaded carefully to avoid gas blow-by, and you're not shooting steel targets, I think the health hazard is primarily from the priming compound residues. You can swallow a pure lead bullet and it will likely pass through your digestive system without causing any harm. The metallic lead pill is not in a form that will easily assimilate into your system. Powdered lead is different. Lead in dust form can be inhaled, or ingested. It has a much greater surface area which makes it more easily assimilated, plus, if inhaled, it doesn't readily pass through your system (you don't poop it out).

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The lead would contaminate the drinking water...right ?

Possible, but not likely. Under the right circumstances lead can migrate in the groundwater, but it is not often encountered. Most often the lead is not in a dissolvable form, or it doesn't remain in a dissolvable form as it stays in the ground. Of course if you dump it on the ground you'll now have lead in the soil. So maybe don't dump it in the vegetable garden or the kids sandbox.

Down the drain? Maybe. It would likely dilute out, unless you live in a town full of reloaders.

[MUSTANG]

How do you safely dispose of the lead contaminated water....you don't want to pour in down the drain or on the ground. The lead would contaminate the drinking water...right ?

Pshaw.

If one puts into drain and into septic tank - It will settle to bottom of the Septic Tank. If septic is pumped and sludge used for fertilizer or fill; the amount of accumulated lead would be next to nil on a parts per billion or parts per trillion perspective or parts per quadrillion even basis.

If one puts into drain and into community sewage system - It will drain and drain and drain until it reaches sewage ponds (except most mico-micro-micro particles will settle into pipeline sludge along the route) and at the sewage ponds it will settle into the bottom. If pond is pumped or sludge is "Mined" to be used for fertilizer or fill; the amount of accumulated lead would be next to nil on a parts per billion or parts per trillion perspective or parts per quadrillion, or even quintillion basis.

Now; If one is in the Lead Smelting/Production business dealing in thousands and hundreds of thousands of Tons per year; you have a different volume and issue. Good news is this does not happen in the US because DOE RUN is Dead!


An old adage in Contamination Remediation is: The Solution to Pollution is Dilution.

[Dusty Bannister]

Not sure what you mean by "just part of"?

Are you questioning why worry about a tiny bit of lead styphnated priming compound when we're shooting lead bullets?

It's a fair question - Provided you've loaded carefully to avoid gas blow-by, and you're not shooting steel targets, I think the health hazard is primarily from the priming compound residues. You can swallow a pure lead bullet and it will likely pass through your digestive system without causing any harm. The metallic lead pill is not in a form that will easily assimilate into your system. Powdered lead is different. Lead in dust form can be inhaled, or ingested. It has a much greater surface area which makes it more easily assimilated, plus, if inhaled, it doesn't readily pass through your system (you don't poop it out).

While there is lead dust in the air generated by the primer at the time the round is discharged, you probably encounter more lead dust during casting and handling of scrap lead. As I said this is one part of how lead dust is encountered. I did not say it was so small as to be of no concern. There are probably several ways to get lead into the system just as there is some lead eliminated from the body along with normal waste. I do not know if you have looked at many of the previous threads on lead contamination and how it can be removed from the body or not. That was not what I was addressing.

[mdi]

Personally I think this is "Chicken Little" thinking. I have been reloading/shooting for over 35 years, and lived in LA for 65 years (smog). For many years I used indoor shooting ranges, both pre- and post- EPA ventilation regulations. I know of not one reloader/shooter/caster in those 35 years that suffered any ill effects from "lead poisoning". My employer mandated an annual physical exam including blood tests for heavy metals and even among the 8,000 employees no excessive lead was reported. One or two welders were reported to have other "heavy metals" in their blood. I believe, in theory, that lead is present in some lead components, but one would really have to try to become "poisoned" buy any products of reloading/shooting, like doing deep breathing exercises with their face over a tumbler, or chewing on a freshly cast bullet while casting.

Many times someone will hear or read a health warning and blow the message out of proportion and parrot what they read as gospel (some government agency "said so").

I know my opinion may not be the most popular, but I base my life on logic and facts, and while lead poisoning may have occurred to kids eating lead paint, I would have to see real life facts (not "my brother in law had a friend at work whose uncle got cancer from reloading"). I cast, loaded, cleaned brass, decapped tens of thousands of spent primers, shot many thousands of rounds in a so-so ventilated indoor range, and my annual blood tests were normal, even living and working in downtown LA. The EPA enforces regulations on what may happen in extreme conditions (BTDT), but every day use is fine...

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

While there is lead dust in the air generated by the primer at the time the round is discharged, you probably encounter more lead dust during casting and handling of scrap lead. As I said this is one part of how lead dust is encountered. I did not say it was so small as to be of no concern. There are probably several ways to get lead into the system just as there is some lead eliminated from the body along with normal waste. I do not know if you have looked at many of the previous threads on lead contamination and how it can be removed from the body or not. That was not what I was addressing.

OK. Sometimes when you read the written word it doesn't come across the same as if it were spoken. Yes. I did a lot of reading of those threads. One of the things I took away from it was that dry tumbling brass was one of the bigger pathways for getting lead into your body. So I thought tackling that pathway would give a better cost/benefit yield. Especially since it seems people get good results by cleaning with lemon juice/citric acid and such. So I thought "why not add some TSP" to the mix?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

, but I base my life on logic and facts,.
I do too. And when I read threads on Castboolits regarding lead poisoning I see that most people suffer no ill effects, but there are a few who have experienced high lead levels.

I suspect it is like smoking. No one knows of anyone who smoked one, single cigarette then keeled over. We all know someone who smoked a pack-a-day and lived to their 90s. Yet the dangers of smoking are real. It's just that some people will suffer the effects more readily than others.

I base my life on facts too, but I also apply cost-benefit analysis to my decision making. The cost to switch from dry tumbling to wet-washing is extremely low. And to add a little TSP isn't much either. So even if the hazard is low, it's not a big deal to switch the process.

[tazman]

I worked in a heat treatment facility that used molten lead as the heating medium. Think of a large rectangular tub about 40 inches long, 16 inches wide and 6 inches deep filled with red hot lead and you have a basic picture of what we were dealing with. There were four to eight of these in use, 24 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. Approximately 1200lbs of lead in each of those posts at temperatures around 1500 degrees F. Anywhere from 3 to 8 men were working in the area at any moment, depending on how much production was needed.
We had blowers and fans running constantly but dust and fumes still got away from the system all the time. On occasion, when the wind was in the wrong direction, the area would fill with smoke from burning quench oil to the place you could not see to work or breathe the stuff. We were tested yearly for blood lead level content.
We had insurance people in there testing the conditions nearly every year, sometimes for days at a time. They always approved the air control systems in place.
We did NOT wear breathing protection. We had a list of rules, that if you followed them, you would not get an overabundance of lead in your system.
During the 40 years I worked there, we only had one man get in trouble for testing high on lead content. He deliberately ignored and broke every safety rule concerning lead handling we had. It took him about a year, but when the tests came back too high, they took him out of the department and after he completed treatment to reduce the lead in his system, they fired him. By that time, they figured out what he had been doing.
I was the longest serving worker in the department at the time I retired. I never tested above normal(for the area) lead content in my system.
Keeping lead out of your system is simple and straight forward. It requires no special equipment or techniques. Just common sense.
Don't smoke or eat while handling lead. Wash your hands before you do.
Keep your clothes that you wear when casting or smelting away from any young children before you get them washed. Lead effects children far more than it does adults.
Preferably, have a fan of some kind providing a very light breeze across the top of your casting area blowing away from you. It doesn't need to be much. Just enough to keep the air moving.
Even though lead will NOT vaporize at the temperatures we work with it, lead dust and oxides can and will form and get airborne. Unless something unusual happens that concentrates this stuff, you won't get enough in your system to be a problem.
Just don't chew on your casting gloves.
Lead from primers is a thing I know little to nothing about.
Lead handling, I do know something about since I had to deal with it every day for decades. It isn't hard or difficult. Just pay a little attention to what you are doing and you will never have a problem.
Except for the occasional visit from the tinsel fairy of course.

[b2lee]

And drink plenty of orange juice.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Lead handling, I do know something about since I had to deal with it every day for decades. It isn't hard or difficult. Just pay a little attention to what you are doing and you will never have a problem.
Except for the occasional visit from the tinsel fairy of course.
Yes! Nothing drastic. I was just taking dust from primers into consideration.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I went to citric acid wash and then I tumble in walnut shell , not for the lead dust which primarily comes from the segregating of brass out of media . First wash in citric then shake out toss in tumblers let run for awhile switch over to next tumbler and then it is done . As a benefit the walnut shell media has gotten a little citric acid in to it and no more of the activating compound has been added , which was citric based by the smell.

[Gtek]

The never ending war between the ain't never hurt me, the chicken little's and the politics of misinformation and agendas. Lead really kills between a couple hundred FPS to a couple thousand FPS, yes Sir! It all becomes so overwhelming at some point what is real or not, maybe, who really knows. And with all the potential variables mixed in with the individual component it really helps lock down a statistical study parameter. I will admit I am more scared of the unknown fanny wipers out there that don't wash their hands and touched doors and cooks food out in the herd. That white hat looks mighty low out in the Romaine field., there, something else to worry about!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well I found an answer to my question:


Regardless of the potential differences between experimental conditions and real-life settings, the results of this comparative study do not support the recommended use of TSP for the reduction of lead dust exposure.
https://www.epa.gov/lead/executive-summary-epa747-r-97-002

They tested a bunch of common household cleaners. Interesting note: they found more variability between who was doing the cleaning than they found between the cleaning chemicals.

So I will not put any effort into special soaps for cleaning brass. I will, however, switch to wet tumbling as a means of dust control. The vibratory tumbler I currently have is Lyman's orange pumpkin which has a slotted lid. Supposedly the lid is to serve as a sieve to sort the bras and media. But it doesn't help with dust control.

[mdi]

I do too. And when I read threads on Castboolits regarding lead poisoning I see that most people suffer no ill effects, but there are a few who have experienced high lead levels.
I really like castboolits forum and respect most of the members, but it's still a "public" forum where, just like youtube, anyone can post almost anything without any proof, 99.0 % opinion.

I believe we are living in a sterile society with us being "protected" from everything that might, if you remained in contact with the substance 24/7 for 3 years, give you a headache. Much of which is demanded by the "Chicken Little" thinkers and politicians...

My opinion has been stated and I don't believe there will ever be a consistence on the subject. I'm done...

[BigAlofPa.]

I had my lead checked. It was 17. something. I started to wear latex gloves when decapping. Also recently added an air purifier with a hepa filter. I run it while brass is in the tumbler and for an hour after i turn off the tumbler. And i have a mask i put on when entering my loading room to turn off the tumbler and dump the brass out. Next check i'll find out if it helped.

[blackthorn]

.
I really like castboolits forum and respect most of the members, but it's still a "public" forum where, just like youtube, anyone can post almost anything without any proof, 99.0 % opinion.

I believe we are living in a sterile society with us being "protected" from everything that might, if you remained in contact with the substance 24/7 for 3 years, give you a headache. Much of which is demanded by the "Chicken Little" thinkers and politicians...

My opinion has been stated and I don't believe there will ever be a consistence on the subject. I'm done...

There is very little (if any) profit to be had from truth, common sense or reasoned responses----FOLLOW THE MONEY!

[Springfield]

To keep down the dust in a dry tumbler just add some auto paint swirl remover from the auto parts store. It dampens the media, eliminating the dust, and also helps polish the brass.

[Boomsticks Firearms]

I never really thought about the lead dust in the case tumblers which I have 2 the Lyman and the Thumler's Tumbler Ultra-Vibe 10 Case Tumbler but about 2 years ago I built a big wet tumbler that I can clean over 2000 233 cases in. The main reason why I have done this is because wet tumbling cleans the cases better and faster.

I am more concerned about the fumes for from melting lead when I am casting which I use a fan to help blow it away from me.

233327

[BigAlofPa.]

I do add a mineral spirits and new finish to the media.

[Walks]

I put my 2 Vibratory tumblers out on the Patio walkway,
I don't have room in the garage. One LYMAN 1200, one Thumblers 10. Both have solid lids. The rotary separator is used right next to them too.

After 35+yrs neither the grass nor the Rose bushes show any ill effects from the weekly exposure.

I've cast & reloaded for 60+yrs. For the past 15yrs I've used nitrile gloves when reloading, casting & gun cleaning. I have added a breathing mask with full face shield that has replaceable filters when mixing alloys. I usually mix about 100lbs at a time. Makes the wife happy.

I can't remember my lead levels from my last check, two years ago. But my Dr. said it was within normal limits. So I won't worry about it.

[AlaskaMike]

The only time my lead level went above 5 was after I melted down a bunch of wheel weights and was drinking coffee while doing it. I knew better, but all my blood tests kept coming back with very low levels. My next test showed a level of about 19.

I've always had good ventilation in my garage where my loading and casting gear is, so I'm sure that helped me out. I've never worn gloves or any kind of mask when loading or casting. I just wash my hands really well when I'm done. I do think if you eat, drink or smoke while melting lead, you are hugely increasing your risk. Even if your level is under 20, there are still issues with prolonged low level exposure where your level is in the 15-20 range.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The only time my lead level went above 5 was after I melted down a bunch of wheel weights and was drinking coffee while doing it. I knew better, but all my blood tests kept coming back with very low levels. My next test showed a level of about 19.

While it is easy enough to remember to never eat/drink while handling lead, the dust from tumblers can be more insidious. I do the tumbling on the garage floor next to the work bench where I do all manner of other projects. I don't drink coffee/beer while casting boolits but I certainly will drink while truing a bicycle wheel, or any other myriad of projects in the garage. Thus I'm waging war on tumbler dust. I already have a Harbor Freight rock tumbler so switching to wet tumbling should be a cinch. Biggest problem may be coming up with the $40 to buy ss pins. I just spent a bunch on a new Lee mold, RIG gun grease, a digital scale and such.

I have some diatomaceous earth in the garage for the chickens and garden. I may throw a scoop of that in the HF tumbler drum and see what that does to brass.

[tazman]

It might be worth your time and trouble to get a lead testing kit. Then you could test the surfaces of the stuff in the area around where you tumble the brass to see how much lead dust has actually settled in the area. This would take the questions out of the equation for you.
I know they exist because they have been mentioned on this site before during a similar thread. I don't know where to find one or how much they might cost.

[porthos]

if some of you guys would get your blood checked for lead; i suspect that the results will show that "there ain"t any". myself; i will not go the hazmat suit and oxygen mask just yet

[fatelk]

I had mine checked recently; it was 8. He said that wasn't a level to be particularly concerned about, but it showed exposure and I should consider making some changes to reduce that exposure. The thing is, I hadn't done any casting at all for at least 6 months prior to the blood test. I had, on the other hand, handled brass with my bare hands that I wet tumbled, before rinsing.

I'm not worried or scared of lead, but I do want to minimize exposure. I have young kids in my house and I want to make sure they are not inadvertently exposed somehow. I've also been through the cancer thing myself, and while I don't think it was lead that caused it, or would cause it again, I'm not going to take any chances with my health.

[tazman]

Did some checking on lead testing kits. You can get one from Lowes that tests surfaces for lead residue for $10. Cheap way to find out if there is lead dust landing in your work area.

[WRideout]

Did some checking on lead testing kits. You can get one from Lowes that tests surfaces for lead residue for $10. Cheap way to find out if there is lead dust landing in your work area.

When I worked for an environmental consulting company, we did a lot of lead paint surveys on homes. The usual method is to use a one sq. foot template over the surface to be tested, then wipe inside the opening with a standard baby-wipe. Bag the wipe and send it to the lab with an unused one for a control sample. Make sure the control sample doesn't get contaminated when you touch it. Lead dust from paint is typically found on horizontal surfaces that don't get disturbed much, such as window sills. A normal house survey gets samples from all likely surfaces in every room. The sample bags are numbered and recorded on a chain of custody sheet, so you can tell where it came from. A drawing of the sample locations goes with the report sent to the client.

Most likely you won't care too much about the actual casting pot table; you already know it's contaminated. The problem with lead is not the chunks of metal, but rather the form that can be mobilized. That would be dust, and dissolved lead in water. Those are the two ways it can get in your body. If you are in an older house with a lead paint issue, you may already have some lead contamination, but just don't know it. If your casting area is adjacent to any entrance to your house, it is possible you could get lead dust on your shoes, and track it into the house. You can use the wipe method on carpet as well as hard surfaces.

Hope this helps.

Wayne

[Wayne Smith]

I thought about the lead from primers in the tumbling media years ago - and started decapping prior to tumbling.

[lightman]

How do you safely dispose of the lead contaminated water....you don't want to pour in down the drain or on the ground. The lead would contaminate the drinking water...right ?

gwpercle, while I'm quoting you this reply is not aimed at you personally. You just posted what a lot of us are probably thinking.

Right or wrong, I pour it down the drain. I feel that it has a minimum impact on the surrounding environment. After all, we are pouring a gallon of water that contains something measured in parts per million into a system with thousands or tens of thousands of gallons of other stuff. By the time it gets dumped into a 4 inch drain with a lot of other nasty stuff, flows into an even bigger drain with lots more nasty stuff, goes through a booster pump or two while traveling about 3 miles to the treatment plant I doubt that whatever lead that is in it can even be measured. Much better to me than dumping it in the yard.

I'm not a scientist and maybe I'm wrong about this. But I'm looking at all of the household cleaners and other chemicals going into the waste water system. This is a farming community so there are a lot of guys having their clothes washed that are contaminated with petroleum products. Oil, grease, antifreeze, diesel, ect ect. At the end of the day most farmers are wearing some hydraulic oil or diesel.

As far as guarding against being over exposed, I exercise a little care in maintaining good personal hygiene while handling lead. No eating or smoking, avoiding rubbing my eyes or lips, washing my hands before using the bathroom and some ventilation when casting. More of the same while smelting with lots of ventilation. I avoid working directly over either pot and being down wind when smelting. I cast in my 900 sq ft shop with the door open and the Grandchildren are not allowed to play in there. When I dry tumble I use dryer sheets and put a little splash of mineral spirits in the media to keep the dust down. My Dillon tumblers both have lids on them so dust should not be an issue. I'm going to guess that my loading bench where I resize and deprime cases will be my most contaminated area.

I also request having my lead levels checked when they draw blood at my annual checkup. So far they have been in the normal range.

Sorry for the long post.

[JBinMN]

Sorry for the long post.

^ LOL "long post?" Pshaw... Not even close... LOL :D
;)

It was a good post & I agree with it.
;)

[Conditor22]

Another one that pours it down the drain.
Most cities have a wastewater treatment facility, any lead would settle to the bottom and be removed with heavy materials.

[dondiego]

Particulate lead may settle out but dissolved/ionic lead won't settle out.

[Cast_outlaw]

Any one who has any experience in plumbing would know copper water pipes in your house mostly use lead/tin solder on the joints and older houses waste water pipe that are cast iron use pure lead to seal the couplings so I would imagine that waste water plants and systems already deal. With small amounts of lead in the water so a few reloaders dumping small amou was of contaminated water down the drain would probably be a unnoticeable change

[Walks]

Just got my results back from my test the week before XMAS.
It was a 2, I had mixed 200lbs of alloy, the week before.
And I was drinking Coffee too.

Highest reading I've ever had in 25yrs of being tested.
But then I've cast twice a week for 2+ months.

I'm not worried.

[sw282]

Biggest hazard in lead poisoning is HIGH VELOCITY

[BD]

I have been dealing with my personal lead exposure for almost 50 years now. While it's good to see that the topic is getting aired on this forum, I am a little dismayed by the amount of BS in this thread. Tazman's post is about the only reality I see here. I have had high lead levels from body shop exposure back in the '60's with some additional lead roofing and plumbing exposure. I averaged in the mid 20's through my 20's with a high of 48 at age 40 after two years of indoor bullseye league. That got me a letter from the State of Maine and the EPA, along with a reading list.
Elemental lead is not particularly hazardous if you do not ingest it. Do not eat it, drink it or breath it. Wash your hands, do not suck your thumb, do not eat or drink while casting, do not smoke, (lead is the least of your worries if you smoke, why make it worse?) Common processes for boolit casting are well below the temp required to put lead in the air you're breathing, (1,200 deg +/-). Try not to leave the pot on without the thermometer in it. I've continued to cast for 20 years after my high reading and I'm back in the single digits today. The way lead typically gets in your system is through the oxides or various "salts" of lead, which are much, much more readily absorbed than elemental lead. Unfortunately lead oxide makes a great white pigment, (to a lessor extent yellow), so it was widely used in paints and glazes until the '60s. It is also easy to work, so it was used in early automotive body work, (my early exposure) And for a long time it was the major component of most solder. That said, people with lead boolits in their bodies do not die of lead poisoning, unless the projectile is in the gut or spinal fluid where it gets dissolved. Your body deals with lead by filtering it from the bloodstream and accumulating it in your bone marrow. Go too far down the bone marrow road and you are in trouble. Unfortunately once you reach the capacity of your bone marrow, there is not much else your body can do for you without some serious help. So, if you are a shooter or caster, lead level testing should be part of your regular physicals as any elevated level is a sign you need to look at your possible exposure sources before you use up your bodies capacity to deal with it.
The primary risk of exposure for shooters is lead oxide, (dull gray coating that forms on lead when exposed to air), and Lead styphenate which is a major ingredient in ammunition primer compounds. Both of these exposures are very prevalent at indoor ranges. The primer component is in the air you breath anytime someone is shooting and the lead oxide is being formed on all of the tiny particulates that result from boolits fragmenting on the backstops. That stuff gets everywhere. The best advice I can give you is:
1.Wear a common respirator at the indoor range, and really limit your time there, wash you hands and clothes when you're done.
2. Wash your range brass in soap and water before processing it further. Lead styphenate is very soluble, (that's why it is so easily absorbed), so it washes off easily. Do not breath the dust from your tumbler.
3.Don't put your fingers in your mouth while casting, cleaning brass, loading, or shooting.
Follow those three rules and 99% of shooters will be fine.
Symptoms of lead exposure are:
Irritability
Aches and pains
Headache
If you think about it, you will recognize the relationship between your exposure and the symptoms. Act on it when it happens.

[Bazoo]

I have myself checked at least once a year. I was 4 last go round. I am conscience about my eating and drinking during reloading/casting, and washing my hands when done.

I run my tumbler in the house, but it has a solid lid, and I dont empty it in the house. I take it outside and sift it out. I'd run it on the porch, if I ever get a spot cleared to put it and a cord out there for it.

[Walks]

BD,
Shoot me a PM with your mailing address, I will send you a copy of my blood tests.

[ioon44]

I have been casting for about 50 years and the only time my lead levels got close to high was when I was using in door ranges.

[RED BEAR]

i had a brother who had lead and zinc poisoning. spent a couple months in hospital he was an industrial painter sand blasting off old paint and repainting chemical plants and industrial sites. i must agree with mdi most is chicken little thinking had a high lead level once after smelting 1000 pounds of scrap lead. stayed away from it for a.month and it went back down. now if it makes you feel better taking all these precautions then go for it. don't let me or anyone else tell you what to do decide for your self. as for me i will keep drinking my coffee and eat the occasional muffin while i reload and cast. as i say only had one high level reading.

[whisler]

I de-cap using a universal de-capping die in a Lee Turret press which sends the spent primer down a tube into a jug. I then wash the cases in citric acid/dawn wash, rinse and dry. This seems to keep me away from primer dust.

[greenjoytj]

I de-cap with the LEE universal de-capping die. I use the same tool to scrape clean the primer pockets that I used to uniform the primer pockets. The crispy fouling comes off and falls into a garbage bag/bucket like ground pepper. Wet tumble with SS pins I also add TSP (didn’t known it help collect lead) for the extra cleaning powder it provides, along with the dishwashing machine detergent and Lemi-shine.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I am a little dismayed by the amount of BS in this thread.

Now what was the point of this statement? So is it BS to consider the fact that there is lead in the primer dust? And to take reasonable (not excessive) precautions? Which you then proceed to advocate later in your own post.

Or is it BS that people take a flippant approach to it?

[Oldbrowngun]

Pour the gunk down the drain, run some fresh water over cleaned brass. Use dawn and lemi shine they come out pretty clean so i wouldnt worry about special soap. I also recommend not using the steel pins unless reloading for precision rifle. They are a hassel and i have found the only difference is the pins will get the primer pockets much cleaner.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Pour the gunk down the drain, run some fresh water over cleaned brass. Use dawn and lemi shine they come out pretty clean so i wouldnt worry about special soap. I also recommend not using the steel pins unless reloading for precision rifle. They are a hassel and i have found the only difference is the pins will get the primer pockets much cleaner.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Only I originally suggest TSP or trisodium phosphate soap which isn't all that special. Well it didn't used to so special, now it is a little more difficult to find since they've been trying to eliminate phosphorous from soaps. However, after doing some research (see post #18) , I found that they no longer recommend TSP to control lead dust - they found that pretty much any soap will do.

But I guess a squirt of dish soap falls into the category of chicken-little, worry-wort, jumping-through-hoops-because-you're-worried-about-lead-dust for some people.

[Dusty Bannister]

I use the Lemi-shine and Armorall car wash and wax for general wet cleaning of cartridge cases. I would add some Dawn if I had really greasy cases because that is a good cleaning agent. Not chicken little nor other chicken stuff. It just works.

I have no worry about the dust from the dry media cleaner because I always run the tumbler outside. Running a dry media cleaner in the house or building is about like setting up a table saw in the living room. Way more dust of any kind than I would want floating around the house. No matter if lead dust or saw dust, I prefer no dust. This is not a big safety issue unless you make it one.

[Big Boomer]

See post #23. I did something similar. New wrinkle on an old theme. Have the electric DC motor from a treadmill and the front part of the treadmill frame where the DC motor is mounted. Did not change anything where the motor is mounted. Tossed everything else from the treadmill, controls, etc. Made a tumbling drum from 6" PVC pipe with a stop on one end and a step-down to about 4" on the other end. Found a rubber cap for the step-down and use a large hose clamp that is screw tightened. Bought 5 lbs of stainless steel pins for the drum from a vendor on the site here. Of course, you have to have the proper PVC glue for the end cap and the step-down. Whole thing is about 18" long or so. Put two pieces of aluminum baffle to jar the brass around inside the drum. That thing will hold 30 lbs or more of brass. Takes just a half-teaspoon or so of citric acid and a few drops of dish detergent. I use hot water and place the drum on the remnants of the treadmill with the back roller moved to within 6" of the front roller (Used some old pieces of 2"X4" for the framing). Since the motor is DC, I use a heavy duty old Sears battery charger set on high jump-charge and in about one hour or so it will have all the brass clean as a pin, including primer pocket, inside and out. Yes, you have to de-prime every piece of brass before putting it in the drum but it is worth it to have brass that looks like new. Easiest thing I've found so far. Big Boomer

[BD]

It's BS that people take such a flippant approach to it, and how they tend to extrapolate their personal test results to the population as a whole. How your body deals with lead in your bloodstream is primarily based on how much exposure you've had through your life from any and all sources. Without a testing, there is no way to know what your risk actually is. My risk is high, as I had childhood exposure to several sources and the capacity of my bone marrow to deal with further contamination is somewhat limited. Someone with little or no prior exposure is likely to have a much lower risk, and likely would recover from short term exposures much more rapidly. If I was going to make a broad generalization, I would say that older people need to be more careful. A childhood in the 1950's and '60's generally included a lot more exposure to lead compounds, salts, oxides and solubles than is the case since then as lead paint, lead based ceramic glazes, lead plumbing solder and lead based fillers were outlawed. But the only way you'll ever know is to be tested. I believe that one test is worth the money for anyone. If you test under 5, great! Use the regular precautions and go on with your life. If you use basic precautions probably no need to ever get tested again, unless you show symptoms. If you test in the teens or above, you need to put some thought into what you're doing and how you can protect yourself a little more, and get some further testing. That's all.

[Oldbrowngun]

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Only I originally suggest TSP or trisodium phosphate soap which isn't all that special. Well it didn't used to so special, now it is a little more difficult to find since they've been trying to eliminate phosphorous from soaps. However, after doing some research (see post #18) , I found that they no longer recommend TSP to control lead dust - they found that pretty much any soap will do.

But I guess a squirt of dish soap falls into the category of chicken-little, worry-wort, jumping-through-hoops-because-you're-worried-about-lead-dust for some people.

Its good to be cautious with what we do. I dont think you have to worry about it with the wet tumble the cases come out sparkly clean. The biggest worry is ingestion of lead, so i always try and at least wear surgical gloves in all phases, from cleaning and handling brass to reloading it. And I wash my hands several times during the different processes.

[nun2kute]

[QUOTE=Black Jaque Janaviac;4540624]Well I found an answer to my question:

Wonderful, so all is not lost. I know I have read plenty on this subject here, not all, but now I won't have to. And on the bright side, it was totally entertaining also.

"I will admit I am more scared of the unknown fanny wipers out there that don't wash their hands and touched doors and cooks food out in the herd. That white hat looks mighty low out in the Romaine field., there, something else to worry" HERE ! HERE !

"I believe we are living in a sterile society with us being "protected" from everything that might, if you remained in contact with the substance 24/7 for 3 years, give you a headache. Much of which is demanded by the "Chicken Little" thinkers and politicians... "

No wonder I got a head ache

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It's BS that people take such a flippant approach to it, and how they tend to extrapolate their personal test results to the population as a whole. How your body deals with lead in your bloodstream is primarily based on how much exposure you've had through your life from any and all sources. Without a testing, there is no way to know what your risk actually is. My risk is high, as I had childhood exposure to several sources and the capacity of my bone marrow to deal with further contamination is somewhat limited. Someone with little or no prior exposure is likely to have a much lower risk, and likely would recover from short term exposures much more rapidly. If I was going to make a broad generalization, I would say that older people need to be more careful. A childhood in the 1950's and '60's generally included a lot more exposure to lead compounds, salts, oxides and solubles than is the case since then as lead paint, lead based ceramic glazes, lead plumbing solder and lead based fillers were outlawed. But the only way you'll ever know is to be tested. I believe that one test is worth the money for anyone. If you test under 5, great! Use the regular precautions and go on with your life. If you use basic precautions probably no need to ever get tested again, unless you show symptoms. If you test in the teens or above, you need to put some thought into what you're doing and how you can protect yourself a little more, and get some further testing. That's all.

Ah. Thank you for the clarification!

I agree. Lead poisoning is not something to trifle with, but neither does it have to be feared. Maybe the only things I would add to your sage perspective is that - if you change something about how you cast and reload - then you need to re-think how you will keep your process safe. I have been tested before, and it was low. But that was years ago. Do I do everything the same as I did then? No. I know I didn't have a dry tumbler then. So... I'll be asking my Dr. about a lead test. Or I can switch back to wet tumbling.

And you should take into account the possibility that your situation is different from everyone else so you need to think about how it would affect you.

For example: A lot of folks say they run their tumble outdoors which is an excellent way to minimize exposure risks - for them. But in my particular situation, my outdoor electric outlet happens to be close to kid's sandbox. So if I blindly did what other people on these forum say they do - it wouldn't work.

[tazman]

Everyone's situation is unique. Lots the details are different. That is why I only make generalized suggestions about this topic. That said, certain rules seem to apply in the majority of cases.

The conditions at the factory I worked at were filthy, but they were adequate for preventing lead poisoning provided you followed certain rules. The rules for home handling of lead(smelting, casting, and tumbling) are similar but not precisely the same. A lot depends on your individual situation.
Without seeing a person's specific circumstances, I can't make specific suggestions. Your mileage can vary significantly.

[lightman]

After reading all of this and making a few comments, I have a question. Are you guys using tumblers without lids? I wet tumble mostly now days but I still have 2 vibrators that I occasionally use. Both have lids and I have no dust escaping. I've even looked at them in the dark with a flashlight thinking maybe the light would reflect off of the dust. I get a little dust when I empty them into the separater but thats a real minimum. I put a cap full of polish and a cap full of mineral spirits in with the media which seems to cut down on the dust some. I've seen vibrators displayed running without lids to show off the action with the media but I don't recall seeing any sold without lids. Just curious.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

My lyman pumpkin came with a lid, except the lid is also a sieve. I think their idea was that the user could just leave the lid on, turn the whole kit-n-caboodle upside down over a bucket and let the media filter out. It also came with a smaller bowl which had a clear lid that was solid. So if I want to tumble with the larger bowl the sieve-style lid is pretty much useless for dust control.

Plus when I dry tumble, after filtering the cases and media, the cases look shiny but my hands get dirty handling them.

Wet tumbling gives me the peace of mind that there is just less lead dust coating the cases.

I just don't like the dust. Knowing it is likely to have lead in it, knowing that lead is in a form that is to be of concern, knowing my situation, knowing that polished brass is totally unnecessary, knowing that brass can be polished shiny using wet methods, knowing that I've already got a rock tumble on-hand, I've decided to ditch the dry tumbling and switch to wet tumbling.

[Dusty Bannister]

I run my tumblers outside without the lids because the dust is not kept in the media. If you prefer to use something to keep the dust in the container, you well soon be tumbling a burnishing compound. I do not need shiny, just clean. Gritty media does not clean. I do not have children in the area, no garden, so my conditions are adequate for me.