First deer(s) with cast boolits! Used my devastators!!!

[Tripplebeards]

we have what's called a holiday hunt here in WI that got started a few years back. It allows hunters to harvest anterless deer from Dec. 24 th through Jan 1st. You can buy about as many tags as you want for this. I have never partook in it just because I'm a rack hunter and only take one buck bow and rifle seasons and leave the doe alone. Well, I figured it would be a good opportunity to try out my cast devastator boolits I made of 80/20 ACCOWW mixed with lead flooring and 12% pewter with a 15.4 BH I casted and loaded this year that I was getting under MOA with and some great looking mushrooms in water jugs.

I had four tags bought as my relatives have been begging me for venison. I've been seeing 4 to 8 doe and fawn on average each sit during both gun and bow season on my property so I knew there were plenty of deer in the area. I climbed up into my tree stand about 3:15pm and about 10 to 15 min before closing I had a group of four smaller deer come trotting down to me. I waited till they were 20 yards in a single file line passing me and I took aim on the first deer. I put my crosshairs behind the shoulder while it was on a trot. I pulled the trigger and that deer took off on a sprint and bounds acting like I completely missed! The other three just stood there broadside looking at me. I cycled my bolt and put the crosshairs on the next one in line on its shoulder and pulled the trigger. The deer just stood there for a split second...and I could see the boolit hole in its shoulder!...and then it ran off in big leaps just like the first...acting as if it wasn't ever shot! After that the other two ran with it. A second or two later I hear another deer above them running down the hill looking for the group. I knew I had two more tags to fill but told myself to pass it since I just shot two...if I actually connected with the first one...would be a project to drag out. Well, that deer that was running down the hill stopped 4' from the base of my stand and wouldn't leave. It was on my far right. I decided I had tags so why not. I couldn't swing to my right so I took the rifle in my right hand like a pistol and pointed directly down trying to look through my 3.5 power. All I saw was brown because the deer was literally 10' straight down from me. I pulled the trigger and the nubbin buck dropped at the shot. It ended up kicking around and wiggled a good 10 yards away from my stand till it expired. I got out of my stand and looked for blood from the first two I shot at. I looked for 15/20 min and it was good and dark by now so I figured I'd come back in the morning to find them since I didn't see any blood. I did hear one rolling and kicking In back of me a few seconds after I shot the last one directly under my stand so I was guessing it was the one I saw the hole in its shoulder.
I headed back and grabbed the one by my stand and jumped what I thought I thought was another deer, too dark to tell. I then heard three coyotes howling about 200 yards or less away. I pulled my first cast boolit deer down the hill, gutted, loaded, and headed home.

I couldn't sleep thinking about the two deer I shot at and couldn't find all night and the rotten coyotes that might steel them.

I went back up in the woods this morning while it was just getting light. I found the first deer..the second one I shot in the shoulder...just behind it actually, right on my walking trail about a 100 yards from where I shot it I. plain sight. The boolit took out both lungs and exited. I figured I must have spooked the yotes off of it when I walked in. They just started ripping a hole in its rear and there were a few bite marks and small chunks missing in the rear quarters. I filleted the bite marks off it. I walked back to the original spot I shot both the runners and did find blood trails. Not impressive at all but enough to follow. A dime size or smaller spot ever 3' or so untill the last 20/40 yards got better. I flowed the trail and didn't know if it was the same blood trail of the one I just found or the other since they both ran I the same direction. I kept following it and the trail started to cut to the left 20 yards on down the hill in front of the one i just found minutes before. I could see the deer 40 yards down the hill. It was completely destroyed by coyotes.

There was no salvaging it. After cussing I ended up putting my trail cam in front of the carcass to see how many of the rotten predators are out there.

Well, this was my first harvest with cast boolits...and last with the devastors. I wasn't impressed with 2 deer that went a 100 and 120 plus yards. One with a double lung shot and the other that went farther I hit about the 4th/5th rib back so I definitely took out the liver and probably/maybe clipped a lung if I had to guess. Couldn't check it since it was destroyed by the coyotes. All three deer had complete pass throughs with a boolit sized exit. The extremely torn up deer had a bigger exit but there was long chunk of meat hanging out it so I believe the yotes yanked the hole bigger. I would have thought that the deer would have least buckled or humped up when being hit.

The one I dropped under my stand I took out both lungs and the heart...and it stilled kicked around for good 10 yards. I'm wondering if my alloy was too hard not providing enough expansion and fragments giving more of an instant shock value and quick death?

All in all, it was a good learning experience to see what my boolits I made do.


This is the deer that dropped at the shot with its heart...


http://i.imgur.com/abNDGLI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/A3HcDMy.jpg


The 2nd deer that made it a 100 yards with a double lung shot. I was 15' feet in my stand so the boolit angled and exited just above the heart. Pics of when I found it and the damage coyotes started ripping into it...

http://i.imgur.com/TDpb1kf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7V246PJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0hgaN3u.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/smrMGpH.jpg


And the last little guy I found at about 120 yards destroyed...


http://i.imgur.com/WKE2MPN.jpg



So, besides getting out and ridding my coyotes would casting an extremely soft alloy in my devastators help with instant knock down or should I change to another boolit? I had no issues with penatration what so ever. Complete pass throughs on all with boolit diameter size entrance and exit holes. I could feel huge chunks of ribs broken out and loose in the chest cavity when field dressing the one that dropped at the shot. I'm sure that aided in a quick kill...but two out of three both went too far after being shot so I need to change something.


P.S. Thanks for everyone's help teaching me how to cast boolits the past year, the reward paid off even though I still have an ulcer from the chewed up deer.

[bikerbeans]

What caliber devastator? I use 44 cal lyman devastors in a 50/44 sabot out of a 50 cal huntsman MZ. These bullets are air cooled lyman #2 alloy and work fine on a boiler room shot. Never tried a shoulder shot.

BB

[Tripplebeards]

Ruger 77/44, 44 mag rifle. 21.1 or 21.2 gr of lil gun. Chronied at 1750 fps. 15.4 BH 80/20 w/12% pewter, PC and GC. Casted from my Lyman devastator mold dropping around 263gr. Probably pretty close to the same BC as your number two. If you check on my home page you can check out the expansion tests I did. The alloy stays together and expands nicely. The shoulder shot was a boiler room shot. It actually went just behind the shoulder and took out both lungs. Couldn't have asked for a much better shot placement. These were all smaller first year deer as well so I figured they would been a little more fragile than a good size buck or doe. I would like to find a boolit or alloy that acts like my jacketed 180gr core loct bullet that had dropped 99.9% of the deer I've shot where they stand. Gotta feeling I need a lot softer alloy to achieve what I my boolit to do...or maybe it's the slower velocity caliber? The average deer shot with my Muzzel loader with 300gr bullets with a mv around or just under 2000 fps travel on average 40/60 yards whether I shoot them in th shoulder or just behind it like an archery shot taking out the lungs. Seems like the calibers I use that are 2700 fps and above drop deer on the spot 99.9% of the time and 2000 fps or slower in trailing unless I head shoot or backbone them.

[GARD72977]

That second deer looks like a great shot. I would have thought the big meplet would do pretty good without much expansion.

[Tripplebeards]

That second deer looks like a great shot. I would have thought the big meplet would do pretty good without much expansion.

It was, the boolit exited in the same place about 4" lower on the other side and left a huge mess inside with no lungs left. They were completely jellowed with just blood in the cavity where they normally would be. Still scratching my head why it didn't drop where it stood or even acting like it was shot for that matter. After having two in a row both run like they weren't hit and travel a football field length I need to change something whether its the alloy, boolit, or caliber. I figured a 44 mag would have some good knock down. I'm sure it dose I just need to try some of my 7.5 BH boolits I tested last year. I would assume they'll fragment all over the place, ruin a little meat, and provide a lot of shock to put the deer down quicker.

The more look at the one all chewed up I believe what I thought was an exit hole is just where a coyote chewed into it and pulled some stringy meat out.

[Messy bear]

Try the soft ones and see, if you still have time and tags.

[BK7saum]

I think that a 100 yard run is going to be pretty standard with a double lung shot with any boolit running in the 1700 fps range. If you want more shock with that slow of a boolit , break the shoulder(s) down.

[Static line]

Heck,stuff happens when hunting and you never know how a deer will react when shot. I shot mine at 20 yards away right behind the shoulder with my 45-70 350 gr. Ranch Dog bullet,clean pass through and no blood for 30 yards.Found that deer 50 yards away where it finally dropped. My cousin shot one with his 45-70 and 325 gr. Hornady gummy nose bullet right behind the shoulder,clean pass through with a two inch hole coming out the other side.NO BLOOD,NOT ONE DROP,until we found that deer 70 yards away and the only blood was in a puddle where it lay.Go figure.I have also shot deer and so has my cousin where they dropped in their tracks.I am on the other end of things,I don't like hollow points.Give me a nice WFN anyday.

[Thumbcocker]

Thank you for the good write up. Coyotes suck. I had a small buck get chewed this year that was recovered around 2 p.m. after being shot around 7:30 a.m. the same day.

[Blammer]

got a pic of the bullet?

[Tripplebeards]

I've had my fox pro out this year with no luck, I'll have to give it some more woods time. If we just didn't have an ice storm id be sitting over the carcass with 3" lead BB shot.

[Tripplebeards]

got a pic of the bullet?

What boolit? All complete pass throughs. One is in the ground somewhere and the other two probably stuck in trees if I had to guess. I did look by the the stand for a dirt hole but couldnt find where the boolit entered the ground after passing through the deer. Would have taken a different shape after smacking frozen ground anyways. Too hard of an alloy and to fast of a velocity...they all blew right through the deer and kept going.

[Blammer]

https://i.imgur.com/HVpgKu8.jpg

The NOE 311gr HP in the top left (as you're looking at it) run out of my 44 mag was absolutely massive damage and the deer dropped at the shot.

This was just Air cooled WW's out of my rifle. Not pushing them horribly fast. The large HP left a golf ball entrance and exit.

Perhaps this is what you're looking for.

[Blammer]

sorry should have been clearer. got a pic of an UNFIRED bullet? :)

[Tripplebeards]

Here are some exit pics....

http://i.imgur.com/fflZPmi.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/Ojln3ai.jpg

The all the entrance holes were the same size as the exits.

[Tripplebeards]

Just a plain old bone stock Lyman devastator mold is what I casted out of. I used a 80/20 alloy mix of ACCOWW and lead flooring with 12% pewter added to the mix,Clear PC,and GC with a BH of 15.4 the last I checked them a few months ago. The last pic is a test boolit I recovered from a tote of water with a MV of 1750 fps. I wanted to test my alloy mix. This alloy held together and had better weight retention than my 7.5BH 16:1 mix and 50/50 with pewter added. I have tons of boolit pics and test pics on my home page if you would like to check them out. I'm thinking an extremely soft alloy would work better. I didn't want to try the 16:1 mix as I had a couple stop inside the first 16 oz water bottle loaded at 1700fps. Some made it to the third bottle. Extremely shallow penatration. I keep thinking what happens when using soft ballistic tips on coyotes. Huge hole and instant death. I'd rather loose some meat and drop a deer in its tracks 100% of the time.

http://i.imgur.com/kjDe9n0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/efJJnQe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zDmQvvj.jpg



If your having good luck with COWW alloy it would make sense. I would assume your alloy is a lot softer and brittle than mine, around 9 to 11 BH or so if I had to guess, and the pedals are probably braking off and going in different directions causing more trauma. My boolit I'm guessing stayed together, didn't expand much and blew right through it. I had absolutely no problems with penatration just knock down power with two out of three deer.

I did try a ACCOWW devastator on a rabbit at a 136 yards. It cut it completely in half.

Glad a had a few tags to burn. It allowed some great opportunities to test this alloy/boolit combo. I just need to figure out what works for a more instant harvest.

[Tripplebeards]

I think that a 100 yard run is going to be pretty standard with a double lung shot with any boolit running in the 1700 fps range. If you want more shock with that slow of a boolit , break the shoulder(s) down.


I have a feeling your 100,000% correct no matter how hard or soft my alloy is. I shot a small deer 18 years ago with a 325 gr Speer soft point out of my 50AE desert eagle I owned at the time with the same reaction.

[500Linebaughbuck]

i use a tc encore in 444 marlin with a 24" MGM barrel. i USED to a 275gr ranch dog(2300fps) and 280gr lfn gc(2100fps) but a couple of of years ago, my shoulder didn't like them. every deer i shot with them was drt. then i started to download them(1800-2000fps) and they were still drt. my shots were 50 yards and less. this year i tried a 300gr fn gc that was downloaded to around 1650+/-fps. i shot a buck(30 yards) and two doe(37 and 64 yards). the buck(which was a 6pt) and the doe(64 yards) were drt. the 37 yard doe was a b....i mean awesome critter. she ran after the shot. i admit, she only ran 20-25 yards till she piled up. i was not surprised at all, even tho every deer was drt. i shot her behind the shoulder("elbow" joint),hit both lungs and then smashes a rib before it goes out. the exit wound was a little bigger than the entrance wound. i used a 10 coww/ 1/4 tin, that's something like 12+/-bhn. i use my ruger sbh with 250gr hp in 44 spl. the 250gr hp is 40 lead/ 1 tin(8bhn+/-). but that is for personal protection. i used to use a 280gr wfn gc(12bhn+/-) that goes 1100fps in 44 mag to go hunting with. the ruger would either drt or run about 50+/- yards(deer).

i have shot deer with the 223 all the way up to a 45-70. i have shot them behind the shoulder(low or high) and i have busted the shoulder(in or out). the deer are either drt or they run off and die. (i am not accusing you. i am merely stating my facts[smilie=1:;-) ) the longest i have ever tracked was 300+ yards. it was sometime in mid 1990s when the barnes x bullet came out. me being dumb, decided i HAVE TO HAVE a 85gr x bullet to go with my 243. well i go out in deer season with my "trusty" 243 and 85gr x bullet. to make a long story short, i shot a doe right behind the shoulder and she ran. it was a 70+/- yard shot. i waited about a 1/2 hour and then i tracked it. thank God for the snow because i didn't have blood trail. it was a blood drop here and i go about 30 to 40 yards to find the blood drop again. i found her about 300+/- yards away. while gutting the doe, i find the wound. behind the shoulder low, pinpricks the lungs and goes out between the ribs. it looked like fmj. well the "trusty" 243 and x bullets went bye-bye and i got another rifle.

now i'm just making a comment, take it for what you will, i would go 250-310gr lfn or fn gc and i'd go 12bhn+/-. the hp design in your 44 cal is not needed for hunting for deer, just my take. your going into the deer about .429 - .433" so if it comes out more, that's good. if it comes out to .429 - .433", then that's good too.

[fingers284]

I think that a 100 yard run is going to be pretty standard with a double lung shot with any boolit running in the 1700 fps range. If you want more shock with that slow of a boolit , break the shoulder(s) down.

That's not my experience at all. All my cast are COWW so not especially hard and nothing gets sent downrange harder than 11-1200 fps and I purposely only shoot for "in the ribs double lung shots" because I want the animal to bleed exceptionally well inside while it still has a heart beat. Of the over 1/2 dozen deer I've shot with that combination I have yet to be able to recover a slug...all complete pass thu's and the thing that disagrees with your opinion is that not one deer has gone more than 4 or 5 jumps after being shot. Most shots were in the 50-125 yard range but one on a very good mature mule buck was a 45-70 "hail mary" 245 yards...same 4 jump result.

[Tripplebeards]

The boolit was definitely destructive. Here is the deer that I dropped in its tracks that i shot right under my stand. This was the one with the heart shot picture above. The boolit exited through the bottom of the rib cage where the rib halves join together with a boolit diameter hole. Fat clogged it up so it took a little bit to find the exit hole. The back strap was good but some of the shoulder meat was blood shot.

http://i.imgur.com/Fm83Ugw.jpg


And here is the one that ran like it wasn't hit and went a 100 yards before dropping that I thought I shoulder hit. It never hit the shoulder plate but did remove a good chunk of meat behind the leg. The boolit took out both lungs. The entry hole was about four fingers plus wide on both deer. Bone chunks and fragments everywhere in both deer as well from shattered ribs. Still can't believe it went that far after looking like it was hit with a cannon. Which the destruction it did that deer should have fell over dead. It's central nervous system just didn't shut down immediately and deer didn't know it was dead yet. Too bad the coyotes tore into the other one that went around 120 yards so could see what happened inside it as well. The bullet placement on the deer the coyote destroyed was about 4" further back than the one that made it a 100 yards. Now I know why they call the boolit the devastator! Devastating. Huge holes and bloodshot meat. Wouldn't have bothered me if the deer dropped where it stood or within a few yards...just doesn't make sense.

http://i.imgur.com/iCc18M4.jpg


Coyotes must have a whitetail tail fettish. I never noticed but the one I cleaned today had its tail missing and have couple others on camera the last two years with a bald nub or just a crusty scab where the tail should be.

[500Linebaughbuck]

The boolit was definitely destructive. ..... The back strap was good but some of the shoulder meat was blood shot. .....
Devastating. Huge holes and bloodshot meat.



in the past, i have seen the nosler bt do the same thing. i am not a fan of "destructive" bullets. i like to "eat up to the hole". in my mind, bloodshot meat is wasted meat.

you have learned what a cast hp will do at 1750fps. you will like it and keep hunting with it or hate it and go to another type of boolit(fn, lfn, wfn....). don't put too much faith on hyper velocity. i have a 500 linebaugh in tc encore with a 24" MGM barrel that uses a 460gr lfn gc and its only going 1200+fps. i still have hunt with it and i don't care about velocity of the boolit. what i do care about is the leakage of blood that the boolit does.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Tripplebeards,

Had I had results and devastation such as spoken of in your first post and shown in your photographs, I would have stopped using cast bullet waaaaay back.!

You don't need a softer alloy, you simply need a better bullet!

Every deer I've taken with a cast WFN has dropped where it stood with one exception that I hit just a touch far back. Likely about the diaphragm. That one went maybe 50 - 75yds.

The biggest pile is of deer taken with my WFN cast 45/70 bullet, but during the 2017 season I took two deer with my RUGER 77/44 and a WFN 275gr at 1750fps +/-.

Both 2017 deer dropped where they stood. One broad side behind the shoulders through and through at a measured 95 - 100yds, the other much closer also through and through.

The .44 WFN was cast of Clip On Wheel Weights and water quenched as they fell from the mold. The 465gr - 45/70 bullets at 1650fps +/- are cast of 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead and water quenched.

You can see that my alloy is harder then yours, with little to no expansion and yet I have NO such devastation as you show and much better dropped where they stood results.

I'd surely NOT put up with that level of devastation, meat loss and as 500Linebaughbuck says, I like to eat right up to the hole.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Rick Hodges]

I have shot many deer with modern jacketed bullets ….308W 150 gr.at 2700 fps, 45-70 300 gr. HP jkt at 1880 fps, 7-30 waters with 130 gr. sp at 2500 fps., 6mm Rem with 100 gr. jkt sp at 3000 fps. and a 44 mag, 240 gr jkt. at 1775 fps. It is not unusual for a deer to run off like the noise scared it with both lungs destroyed. They run 50-150 yds. and die.

All three of your deer died within 100 yds. I don't see a problem with your bullet performance, only your evening/dark game tracking and retrieval efforts. I hunt where there are coyotes, we make every effort to track and recover what we shoot and not leave them overnight.

[cwlongshot]

Good story,
Too bad ya lost one to them durned dogs...

I took a coyote with a 155G Devastator from my 10MM couple years back. WOW the effect! Had better than a quarter sized exit!

CW

[ole_270]

Yeah, I lost most of a 173" buck to coyotes one time, been a war on them since. You said the coyotes were in the area soon after the shot, maybe they were the reason the deer were running in the first place. Adrennaline will make them go a long ways.
My last cast boolet deer went maybe 30 yards, but was stumbling by the 3rd jump. Hit broadside through both lungs from a 250 gr 9 Bhn flat point at 25 yards from a 38-55. Velocity was 1600 fps.

[Tripplebeards]

I finished all my processing and had all my burger ground about noon so I headed out to check my trail cam. I had a big red fox nibbling on and off the carcass from 6pm last night to 4 am this morning. I had a pic of only one coyote that ran it off and never fed on the carcass. I ended up with some pretty cool videos of the fox chewing on the deer. He wasn't a fan of the the light glow of my Bushnel aggressor and kept spooking and running in circles looking into the camera till he got use to it. I'm going to have to change cast boolit design if I stick with the 77/44 next year. I have some 50/50, 16:1, WQCOWW, and ACCOWW Lee 310 boolits all casted, PC, and GC, and set to load. I also have a 450 bushmaster ruger American that I have load tested some WQ and AC COWW alloys that shoot just a hair over MOA with the Lee 300gr FN with around 35.5 gr of H110 I probably will try out. I would think the extra energy of the bushmaster load will put them down on the spot.

I should have put my camera on the gut pile from the other deer. I had about 6/8 plus set of coyote tracks in the fresh snow from yesterday where the pile was. Literally a highway of tracks. The gut pile was completely gone and cleaned up.

[Tripplebeards]

So, what's the best WFN offering out there offered in 44 cal that will put a deer down where it stands? I have tons of Lee 310s casted,PC, and GC ready to load in various BH ranges. Is there a better choice than the Lee? I know it's about the widest met plate out there in .430.

Seasons over so I won't be able to do any more deer testing till next fall.

[Hickok]

I have killed my share of deer with a .44 Mag and a .45 Colt and cast boolits. Lung hits with flat meplats get complete penetration, and run from 30 to 100 yards on average, with good blood trails.

To put a deer down "where it stands" requires destruction of the central nervous system, a shot to the spine or the brain cavity.

A good boolit though the shoulder bones and muscle will SOMETIMES put deer on the ground immediately, or they may go only a short distance and pile up. Nothing is positively certain, except shutting down the central nervous system permanently.

Like others here, I have hit deer through the lungs with 257 WM MAg, 7mm Mag, and .300 mags, and the deer run off and then die usually within 100 yards or less.

Just my experience, a deer with a heart totally destroyed will run like his tail is on fire, usually in a semicircle and then drop.

Just ain't no guarantees, except sever the spinal cord, or totally take the brain out the head.

[Larry Gibson]

I have killed my share of deer with a .44 Mag and a .45 Colt and cast boolits. Lung hits with flat meplats get complete penetration, and run from 30 to 100 yards on average, with good blood trails.

To put a deer down "where it stands" requires destruction of the central nervous system, a shot to the spine or the brain cavity.

A good boolit though the shoulder bones and muscle will SOMETIMES put deer on the ground immediately, or they may go only a short distance and pile up. Nothing is positively certain, except shutting down the central nervous system permanently.

Like others here, I have hit deer through the lungs with 257 WM MAg, 7mm Mag, and .300 mags, and the deer run off and then die usually within 100 yards or less.

Just my experience, a deer with a heart totally destroyed will run like his tail is on fire, usually in a semicircle and then drop.

Just ain't no guarantees, except sever the spinal cord, or totally take the brain out the head.

Agree. I also recommend, with the 44 Devastator, use of 16-1 alloy at 1400 - 1500 fps.

[megasupermagnum]

I've gotten into some arguments over this, but I don't think a deer running 100 yards once in a blue moon is bad. If you figure the second deer was very alert, adrenaline pumping, that's pretty good performance. I'm sure a WFN will work well, but it's going to make a smaller hole. How is a smaller hole ever going to work faster? I'd try the devastator again next year. If you get another 100+ yard runner, then put them up. My guess is you have an effective load there.

[6pt-sika]

I killed a smallish buck about six years ago with the Lyman 44 Devistater and it was from a Marlin 444 , I wasn’t pushing it hard as I was using AA XMP-5744 . Shot the buck at about thirty yards , he laid down right away . In a moment he got up and angled toward me VERY slowly and I put a second one in him PDQ end of story . My alloy was straight WW’s aircooled . I have since plunked a few with various HP’s some with the older Lyman HP style and some NOE molds with the large Devistater typeHP pin . A couple of the NOE deer needed a finisher and some didn’t . I plunked two one day with the Lyman 429244 HP that were boom flop boom flop . I have an original Lyman 429215 HP as well that eventually I’ll try . I got a MiHec 44 Terminater mold from someone used and tried it this year with the FP version and the dimple HP version and as one might expect both times they hammered the deer . That was in a Ruger #3 Carbine that started life as a 44 Mag and had been rechambered to 444 before I acquired it . I’d say I’ve killed close to sixty deer with cast in the 444 and 85% were with FP bullets .

[Fenring]

Neat!

[Larry Gibson]

Keep in mind the Devastator was designed for use at handgun velocity. That's why I recommend 1400 - 1500 fps as max velocity even from a carbine or rifle. Also the more malleable 16-1 alloy.

[Tripplebeards]

Keep in mind the Devastator was designed for use at handgun velocity. That's why I recommend 1400 - 1500 fps as max velocity even from a carbine or rifle. Also the more malleable 16-1 alloy.


That's why I did some experimenting with a lot harder, mallible alloy to try and keep the boolit together at higher velocity. I believe it was still too hard of an alloy and stayed together without expanding much even though it still made big holes and a mess. I believe a softer boolit would have made just as much blood shot meat...if not more but would have came apart and gave more of a shock value to try and put them down where there stood.

[Hickok]

I think of deer running with both lungs and/or heart destroyed in this way,.... I believe it takes from 10 seconds to 45 seconds for the lose of blood to the brain to cause "blackout" and then subsequently death due to the lack of oxygen.

A deer can run a long distance until the brain goes unconscious from lack of oxygenated blood. Just imagine how far a human can run in 30-45 seconds.

Same goes with punks/bad guys shot with heavy caliber handguns. The sometimes can stay on their feet for a while until the brain shuts down.

Unless the skeletal frame is broken down, or the central nervous system is completely shut down, any living creature can at times be still mobile until brain death happens due to lack of oxygenated blood.

I have hit deer with razor sharp broadheads, and sometimes they don't know they have been shot. They would simply stand still or slowly walk for 10 to 30 seconds, begin to stagger and stumble, and then collapse. Some of these mechanical heads cut 1.5 inch to 2 inch holes through the lungs.

[Ateam]

I think your alloy/boolit/velocity combo worked just fine. Sometimes they run sometimes they don't, does not seem to be much rhyme or reason to it. If you want them DRT then you need to go for a head/neck shot, being a rack hunter it is probably not something you would normally consider, but when meet hunting with yotes around it is the best option. Practice for it, be choosy with shots, fill that freezer.

[Tripplebeards]

If my boolit didn't expand it acted exactly the same as a WFN...so I don't see how a WFN would put a deer down any quicker especially since I had complete pass throughs. The only real variable would be trying a softer alloy which in my opinion will cause more shock value and destruction. I believe the biggest issue is the slower velocity (under 2,000fps) and not connecting with the CRS. I will try a softer alloy next season for sure and a few other boolits to compare. I'd rather not head and neck shoot them on purpose like I did with these to see if it's possible to put them down with a heart and lung shot like I do consistantly with jacketed ammo at higher velocities.

It kinda reminds me of the guys over on predator masters forum that are having issues with runners on coyotes with a 223/5.56. But when they use the exact same bullet loaded 400 fps faster chambered in a 22-250, 99.9% of the posters claim yotes slam to the ground stone cold dead. I still believe higher velocity aids in an instant shock/death.

[fatnhappy]

in the past, i have seen the nosler bt do the same thing. i am not a fan of "destructive" bullets. i like to "eat up to the hole". in my mind, bloodshot meat is wasted meat.

you have learned what a cast hp will do at 1750fps. you will like it and keep hunting with it or hate it and go to another type of boolit(fn, lfn, wfn....). don't put too much faith on hyper velocity. i have a 500 linebaugh in tc encore with a 24" MGM barrel that uses a 460gr lfn gc and its only going 1200+fps. i still have hunt with it and i don't care about velocity of the boolit. what i do care about is the leakage of blood that the boolit does.

The first and last time I used a nosler BT on deer was 1990. Nosler had just discontinued the solid base and I mistakenly thought "how different can the ballistic tip be?"

Yeah, I shot a 150 lb doe with a 165 grain ballistic tip from my 06 at about 100 yards. The bullet hit a rib on the way in and shredded itself like a hand grenade. No exit on a broadside lung shot, with no blood trail.

I spent 3 hours looking for her and lost more meat than I care to admit.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Tripplebeards,

I don't understand here ---------------------

How can you possibly be happy with the level of devastation your seeing? And you still want more expansion.?.???? Don't you eat meat from the deer you shoot?

I have successfully taken just too many deer with a large Meplat/Wide Flat Nose cast bullet, everyone with only one exception dead where they stood, to doubt the ability of a WFN .44 or .45 caliber cast bullet My much preferred point of aim is behind the shoulders.

I'd be highly disappointed to be bring game home with the level of devastation your photographs showed.

As I said earlier, you don't need a softer bullet with more expansion, you simply need a better bullet.

There is little to no expansion with my .44 or .45 caliber Wide Flat Nose cast bullets when taking deer, yet I see a VERY high level of success and ALL without anywhere close to the level of devastation shown in your images.

I have seen only one deer with anything even close to your level of devastation, that being from my first 45/70 cast bullet deer when using a 355gr WFN LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) at a muzzle velocity of 2300fps. Hitting a bit high, the bullet took out the spine and back straps leaving about a 4" hole. However, there was not the devastation such as you have shown, the bone and tissue were simply GONE, leaving the large wound channel. It only took that one experience to convince me that some changes needed to be made, after which a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast at 1650fps has gone on to repeatedly take what has become a pile of deer and along with them, three elk.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[DougGuy]

Tripplebeards you didn't do anything wrong. Maybe if a shoulder had been broken they would have traveled less, but you have an excellent load it seems, one thing, I hunt with the Lee 310, but I get it soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail. Can you do that with your devastators?

[500Linebaughbuck]

The first and last time I used a nosler BT on deer was 1990. Nosler had just discontinued the solid base and I mistakenly thought "how different can the ballistic tip be?"

Yeah, I shot a 150 lb doe with a 165 grain ballistic tip from my 06 at about 100 yards. The bullet hit a rib on the way in and shredded itself like a hand grenade. No exit on a broadside lung shot, with no blood trail.

I spent 3 hours looking for her and lost more meat than I care to admit.


i was using a 150gr bt in my 270. i've shot about 15 - 20 deer and everyone of them did NOT have a exit hole. it didn't matter if i shot them on the shoulder or behind the shoulder the bt "shredded itself like a hand grenade!!! 150lbs avg is about right for my area. i never had a deer that runs off, it will run about 30-50 yards and die.

the big reason i cast is blood trails. the boolit goes in and comes out and the blood pours out.

[GregLaROCHE]

Law enforcement have found to their dismay, that a suspect mortality wounded, unless shot in the brain or spinal cord can keep on coming at them. Just because the heart stops pumping or the lungs stop providing oxygen, doesn’t mean the muscles stop functioning right away. As is true in humans is true in animals. A shoulder shot usually guarantees less tacking, because the animal is crippled.

[Tripplebeards]

Tripplebeards you didn't do anything wrong. Maybe if a shoulder had been broken they would have traveled less, but you have an excellent load it seems, one thing, I hunt with the Lee 310, but I get it soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail. Can you do that with your devastators?


No, their too hard. I have some 50/50 alloy casted up with pewter added that don't remember the BH in both 310's and I also have devastators ready to load and with a 16:1 lead flooring and pewter mix that has a BH of 7.5. Both can be scratched before I PC them. The 16:1 devastator boolit I also have a load that shoots sub MOA at 1650 fps but i figure it will cause more damage than the load I used on this post. I would assume a softer boolit at the velocity I'm pushing it is going to cause way more damage.


To posts above on ballistic tips. I only use them on predators now. It slams coyotes to the ground like they were hit by Thors hammer! If you hit a bone in or out with my 243 loaded with 70 gr ballistic tips you can clap inside the hole. I tried a 180gr ballistic tip on a couple of whitetails out if my 06' and 300 RUM ...what a mess. Looked like a bomb went off inside them.

[white eagle]

deer flee always have
shoot em with a 50 bmg they will flee

[megasupermagnum]

deer flee always have
shoot em with a 50 bmg they will flee

Every single video online of a deer shot with a 50 BMG falls on the spot as if hit by lightning. Every single one. Not that it matters to this thread though.

Tripplebeards, my experience with hollow points is that a lead/tin alloy will always perform better. I've shot the devastator about 1350 fps from a handgun into water cast of 96/2/2 (lead/tin/antimony), and what I get every time is a bunch of tiny flakes of lead and about a 100 grain chunk left of the base of the bullet. Since you got a clean exit, this indicates your's worked better. If I could get almost as good accuracy with pure lead, that's what I'd shoot, but I don't. I still think you just got unlucky with one deer that decided to sprint for all it's worth, but softer lead will never be a bad idea if the accuracy is there.

[Tripplebeards]

My 16:1,7.5BH, PC and GC has shot under MOA. I believe the the load was using 21 gr of H110 at 1650 fps, so it shoots excellent. Actually shot a .8" group with it and a .6" group with the harder 80/20 alloy at a 100 yards when I tested both last year. I was just paranoid on shallow the penetration tests I got with the load so I didn't use it and stuck to my harder 80/20 mix that gave good penatration, expansion, and weight retention on my water testing. When I tested the 16:1, 7.5BH devastator in water filled milk jugs I sometimes had it stop in the very first jug...sometimes it would make it to the third jug. The boolit retained weight everages about a 100gr out of the original 263gr after water expansion. If it would give me a pass through with a bigger bleeder hole life would be good for tracking if needed.

My 50/50 mix and 16:1 alloys in devastators act the same ways in water tests as yours do megasupermagnum. Fragments everywhere and about a 100 grain thin mushroomed boolit set and done. I have a few test pics of them on my home page. I would assume I need to slow down the devastators to eliminate my bloodshot meat issue or change to a WFN and still be OK at the higher velocity I'm pushing since the WFN won't expand as much or at all depending on alloy choice.

[rking22]

It seems you are looking for the instant drop generated by 25-06 and270Win 3000fps bullets. If that is the case you will forever be disappointed with your 44mag cast. By your own statement the first deer was trotting by you at 20 yards. A deer can run 30mph, that is 146 yards in 10 seconds, and she was already spooked. Kicking it in and sprinting another 12 to 15seconds is no surprise. Did you actually think you missed at 20yards? The second also reacted about as expected, they were both dead, just not immobile. The dropped in their shadow result is by disruption of the brain, pressure wave thru blood bone or spinal fluid. The hi velocity expanders create a larger diameter "pressure" area to increase the chance of this result. A cast bullet is not going to get to that 3000fps range. It kills just fine, your bullets did not fail except in being overly destructive. CNS hit to drop them in their tracks or carry a flashlight and use the blood trail we get from the exit to recover your meat. The brain takes time to cease functioning, deer run and they run fast and far. Yes you will get the random DRT with cast, hit real close to the spine or ???? but in general you will have a 25 to couple hundred yard run. Place the shot well, be confident of your shot and plan to follow a blood trail. Another thing to keep in mind, archery hunters keep brand heads razer sharp because clean cuts bleed better than ragged cuts and tears, natural clotting function. Bullets naturally tear rather than slice, and a blown heart doesn't continue to pump blood. 100 yard run is about 7 seconds, I consider that to be expected, DRT is nice but not to be relied upon without breaking BOTH shoulders or CNS. Trails will be shorter with calm and unaware deer, lower adrenaline. I would drop the hollow point or slow them down to their design velocity, I lost some meat to a HP very much like yours at 1100fps. I am reducing the HP to a cup point, I like deer meat!

[Tripplebeards]

No, I didn't think I missed for one second but never shot a deer with low velocity pistol caliber chambered in a rifle and/or cast boolits before the other day. I didn't realize that a whitetail could/would act like it wasn't hit and run like it was on fire with a well placed shot. So IT DID put some doubt in my mind immediately after I pulled the trigger that something might have went wrong being 99.9% of my deer always drop where they stand after shot or at least hump/hunch up and fall with in a few yards when using high powered rifles with jacketed ammo. I was expecting the same reaction on the deer just shot with my slow, cast boolits, lesson learned. I did have a flashlight with me. The problem was I had no blood trail for the first 20/30 plus yards and I thought they went down hill in a different direction. Instead both deer that ran went across the top of ridge and over the opposite side. I knew I'd find the deer in the daylight and never expected the coyote issue to happen so I waited till morning to find them like I normally do in years past and have had no issues doing so. If it was a huge buck I probably would have looked all night in the woods but since they were meat deer and it was 17 degrees I wasn't as concerned about leaving them over night. I definitely have learned my lesson now...lesson number two...I don't leave deer in woods over night anymore. I will eventually take my range finder out in the woods and get a more accurate distance they traveled.

[megasupermagnum]

You did fine, it's always better to give deer more time than end up pushing them from their bed. That's a lesson I learned the hard way more than once. Not finding blood for 20 yards is normal.

Don't let the guys scare you into thinking low velocity just wounds deer. Our family has been hunting deer with handguns and shotguns for generations. The only high velocity option for us is a single shot "handgun" chambered in a rifle round. A well shot deer with a handgun isn't going on an all out sprint for 45 seconds. The worst I saw was a gut shot deer that crawled maybe 75 yards before it could go no farther. Maybe our deer are weaker, even though they are as big as anywhere in the world. I'm sure some guy is about to come along and say he shot a deer that ran 500 yards with lung turned to jello as if it's a bragging right to wound deer.

Next year chances are you will shoot a deer that doesn't want to sprint, and it won't make it 30 yards.

[DougGuy]

Don't let the guys scare you into thinking low velocity just wounds deer.

I have consigned my hunting to a 5 1/2" Vaquero chambered in 45 Schofield, using a 250gr LBT WFN-GC cast bhn12, with randyrat's tac1 lube. I get an honest 1200fps over 21.5gr H110, WLP primer.

I have no doubt that deer shot with this combination will not evade the freezer. Have shot a bunch with 44mag, none of them evaded, I want the biggest meplat I can get, just over supersonic when it hits hide, I have faith this will harvest venison every hunt if I do my part and put the boolit strike where it will do the most good.

[DW475]

Congrats on the venison. Sounds like a great place to call and thin out the coyote population.

[fatnhappy]

the big reason i cast is blood trails. the boolit goes in and comes out and the blood pours out.

yup.

I'm not adverse to jacketed, in so far as my expectations are met: that being an exit from any reasonable angle.

[Tripplebeards]

If the blood poured out of my two runners I would have found them that night. After 20/30 yards I found a pencil eraser to dime size blood spot every 2-6 feet till I got out to about 60/70 yards...then I had a steady trail...blood spots every couple inches. Not trying to beat a dead horse...or deer...but the blood definitely didn’t pour out and there was enough of a trail to find them. I’ve gotten way better trails from jacketed bullets from rifles, muzzle loaders, and expandable broad heads on the occasions I had to track. I’m sure it’s just the luck of the draw and the next one will either drop on the spot with the different alloy or boolit I choose to try. I believe if I used a softer alloy I would have gotten more expansion creating a larger than boolit diameter exit hole that wouldn’t have clogged up with fat for better trailing.

[c1skout]

I think your bullet did what it was supposed to. You say the deer were moving faster than walking speed, so they were probably already spooked, if they're not calm all bets are off as to how they react to a shot!

You may be using too soft of an alloy. These bullets were designed to be used with straight wheelweight lead and at pistol speeds. I use WW and just enough tin to get good fill. Mine look great after the water jug!

I've used the 45cal. devastator in my muzzleloaders with a sabot. 2 deer shot, one at 30yd one about 110, both DRT. Both of these hits shocked the spine though.

[GregLaROCHE]

I think a shoulder shot is one of the best options, if it presents itself. You’re going into the vitals, there is not that much meat there to loose and it will cripple the animal. You may even take out the other shoulder too.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have taken well over 100 deer and over 16 elk in my lifetime so far. I have shot them with longbows and two blade broadheads to handguns in calibers ranging from 357 through 300 Win mag everyone reacts differently to a gun shot or arrow. I a, not going to speculate what did or didn't happen with your shots on these deer. Now I will share some expereince.

I have taken many deer with cast bullets.
I have had great success with Devestators and with WFN hard cast.
That expereince has been with both rifles and handguns all the way up to and including the 475 Linebaugh.

The Devstator one were all 44 mag tremendous damage and the alloy was 8 parts plumbers lead to 2 parts printer Linotype.

The WFN have been the same alloy most heavy for caliber LBT designed wide Meplat boolits driven at upper end velocity for the caliber.

I like HP but based on all the deer and Elk taken with cast boolits I prefer the WFN driven hard over the HP even though I have great experience with both its just what I like better.

I remember shooting a huge northern Wisconsin baloney doe that facing me from a down hill location with the 420 grain WFN GC boolit she rolled over and kicked twice. The boolit ran the entire length of her and exited just to right of her rear exit hole. Dropped right there but I did not have enormous amounts of destruction of the meat. That sums up why I like the WFN and why I like to drive them hard. By the way the only WFN I ever recovered was on a bull elk on a quartering away shot from a 44 Magnum just under the hide on the off side after penetrating 34" of animal. the elk went 125 yards and piled up.

So really the choice is yours but I personally prefer the WFN driven at top velocity and cast heavy for caliber for the Northern Wisconsin Whitetailed Deer.

[ChristopherO]

I've only shot a few medium to big game animals with high velocity jacketed bullets, mainly the 30/06. In my home state slugs, muzzleloaders, pistols and only recently straight wall rifle calibers are allowed. Many of my harvests were made with boolits I've cast for Mzlders. The 12 gauge Lightfield slugs are huge compared to the .50 conicals and round balls of the Mzlders, and still I fully expect to see a well hit deer run anywhere from 30 to 100 + yard with the plumbing destroyed. The many dozens of deer I've killed in the past 3 decades have conditioned me to expect to track a blood trail, even with the heart is turned to mush. It is the norm, not the exception for these large, slow slugs.
Also, don't be fooled into thinking that just because a large hole has transpersed through said critter that you will simply follow the red carpet in the leaves to dead odecoileus virginianus. Much of the time you can. On other occasions fat can clog even a 12 gauge hole on a well fed midwest doe. I've had it happen. Our corn fed deer, especially the does that are not running around like the bucks, are layered with tallow. The large buck I dropped this season had not a scrap left under his hide, though. There are not givens in this sport. Enjoy the hunt and expect to track is the best advise I can share.

[500Linebaughbuck]

I remember shooting a huge northern Wisconsin baloney doe that facing me from a down hill location with the 420 grain WFN GC boolit she rolled over and kicked twice. The boolit ran the entire length of her and exited just to right of her rear exit hole. Dropped right there but I did not have enormous amounts of destruction of the meat. That sums up why I like the WFN and why I like to drive them hard. By the way the only WFN I ever recovered was on a bull elk on a quartering away shot from a 44 Magnum just under the hide on the off side after penetrating 34" of animal. the elk went 125 yards and piled up.

So really the choice is yours but I personally prefer the WFN driven at top velocity and cast heavy for caliber for the Northern Wisconsin Whitetailed Deer.


my deer(avg 150lbs) do the same thing, except i do a low - mid velocity heavy for caliber boolit (wfn, lfn and fn).

[Tripplebeards]

I think next season I’m going to switch it up and try my Ruger American 450 bushmaster with the Lee 300 grain WFN, AC COWW, PC,and GC boolits I casted up and tested last year that grouped just a hair over MOA, 1.196” at a 100 yards with 35.5gr of H110. Haven’t harvested anything with that gun yet and it was my first cast boolit load and rifle combo that got me started in the cast boolit hobby. The gun and load is a beast. I ran the boolit from 27 grains in .5 gr increments all the way up to 40 grains of H110 without any pressure signs but the best groups came from the 35.5 grain load. I would assume it’s gotta to be close to 2,000 FPS from my 16.5” barrel?

[Ramjet-SS]

My Ruger Bushmasters love the 310 grain GC RFN and WFN driven hard top velocity. Shot a smallish doe this season it was bang flop hit her behind the shoulder in the boiler room.

[Tripplebeards]

My Ruger Bushmasters love the 310 grain GC RFN and WFN driven hard top velocity. Shot a smallish doe this season it was bang flop hit her behind the shoulder in the boiler room.

What velocities are you running them? I’ve tested my rifle all the way to max loads recommendations for the 460 S&W with no pressure signs. Here are my groupings:

http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15355


I ran out of AC boolits and have a good 1,000 plus made up that we’re WQ when I made them a year and a half ago. Hopefully they softened up a tittle when aging. They tested around 16 BH a month after I casted them if I remember. They were the first boolits I casted and didn’t realize I would never need a WQ boolit for anything accept dinosaurs at the time.

[megasupermagnum]

Not likely. I've got some water quenched bullets cast over a year ago, and they are a couple points harder than when I tested them before.

[bikerbeans]

The case capacity of the 450BM is about 10% less than the 460 s&w, so i would be careful at using max 460 data in the RARR. The good news is the RARR will handle a COAL of 2.86" so you can seat a bullet long and an increase the useable powder capacity.

BB

[Tripplebeards]

The case capacity of the 450BM is about 10% less than the 460 s&w, so i would be careful at using max 460 data in the RARR. The good news is the RARR will handle a COAL of 2.86" so you can seat a bullet long and an increase the useable powder capacity.

BB


It was a once thing I tried. All the way to 40 grains of h110 with the lee 300 grain FN, no casing pressure signs but the gun started to rattle apart. One of the factory mounted picatinny rail screws came loose, the scope slid back in the rings and wrecked it, and the magazine feel out every couple of rounds probably from the loose optic vibrating. The action held up since its the same one Ruger uses in their 300 WSM cartridge up to 60,000psi but the rest of the rifle wouldn’t hold up. It was like putting nitrous in a Model T. I sent it back to Ruger today because I noticed the trigger housing rattles loose from left to right inside the lower receiver as well. It’s like the holes in the trigger group are hogged out and the housing is too narrow vs the action it mates to.

I would assume if I acraglassed the picatinny rail to the action and used three or four scope rings I’d be OK. Also acraglassing around the V lugs to hold the action in place and some adhesive inside the scope rings would probably help as well.


If I seat the lee 300 grain FN longer than 2.055” it will jam every time.

You should see the fireball that comes out of the brake with my 35.5 grain H110 load. It’s all the more you want to run through that little gun.

[Tripplebeards]

Here’s a link to some of the predators that fed on the carcass. At least the deer didn’t go to waste. I caught the neighbors dog trespassing and ate on it three times as well. It ran up to me years ago on my property and tried to bite me while turkey hunting and I caught it on camera four times chasing turkeys and deer that fall...and I still haven’t shot it. I called the sheriff the other day AGAIN and emailed the pics who gave them a warning again. He said to much time lapsed between the complaints. I was told if he comes on my property again they’ll fine him. The neighbor admitted to kenneling the dog every time he sees my truck on the property so you know that dog has been running freely on my land for years after all the complaints. I’ll have to check my trail cam in the next couple days so they get their fine that’s long deserved. I can guarantee if I stepped one foot on someone’s property just once I’d get a trespassing ticket. I have that dog on camera three times with no collar or tags on it in the last week. I would say the red fox has visited the most. He eats on it every night till about 4 a.m.

http://i.imgur.com/WzehaID.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DvNRZfA.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5KdP17c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XBIXlOS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/uUUHjZp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VOjQXWf.jpg

[pls1911]

Your bullet performance was fine...Your shot placement needs some improvement if instant drops are your intent.

Place you bullet 3" below the horizon , in line with the shoulder/ spine junction. Thinking 3-d, I imagine a tennis ball sized bull's eye onin my deer at that location.
Considering the seemingly infinite penetration of hardened lead slugs, that's my point of aim, from any angle. full frontal, bunghole, or broadside, I've never has a deer fail to drop in it's tracks if I put the bullet THERE.
I prefer the hitting as much bone and nervous disruption area as I can, so of course broad side shoulder shots are preferred.
Moderate 30-30 loads certainly do the trick with finesse, but 45-70's are a truly forceful smack down.

[cwlongshot]

I knew from the first comments you made about the high pressures you where running.

Just a question, why push so hard? The 450 is a decent and efficient killer.

CW

[Tripplebeards]

The 44 mag rifle I harvested these deer were about 2 grains under max book loads. I picked this load because it was the most accurate load I tested and shoots sub MOA at 100 yards...the same with my 450 bushmaster. The most accurate groups I’ve been getting with my 450BS are a 1.1” at a 100 yard, it just happen to be with a load that’s pushed hard. If it shot as tight or tighter with half the velocity I’d shoot it. I’ve been researching factory 300 grain loaded ammo velocities and I’m only about a 170 FPS faster with my cast load, give or take a few FPS and 1.5 grains over AR 300 grain book loads. I own the 16” barreled version...might trade it in for the 22” barreled version when I get it back from Ruger repairs so I can download it and still have a velocity gain. There is a 150FPS gain in velocity from the 16” to 22” barrel Ruger American 450 bushmaster rifle with factory loads and I eventually want to load 200 grain jacketed ammo in it for Iowa deer hunting for some fast, flat, long range shooting.

[cwlongshot]

The 450 simply is not a big recoiling caliber. Not when you have notorious recoiling rifles likenthe 378 Weatherby. Scopes, bases rings actions trigger pins live lifetimes under its recoil.
To have some of the issues you are having, I suspect pressures are a bit more than you think that they are.

Many folks have the same gun, everyone is different, but the vast majority find great loads. I have same rifle and frankly, had to do dozens of loades to find ones that WHERE NOT accurate.

Many soeak of the “long range” abilities of this caliber. Many more appropriate calibers are built for real long range. I know many states are new to rifles and have the straight case stipulation to hunt big game. But much like the limitations seen with a shotgun, just because you cannnow use a high powered rifle, dont immediately come with long range ability. With a 450, you can effectively double plus what a shotgun could do. Thats with factory ammo.

The writing is on the wall conserning some of the loads your shooting.

In my own 450, I settled for AA9. It dosent produce top velocity, but darned if it wasnt accurate with 200, 225, 250 & 300g jacketed bullets.

One of the very first loadings I tried in mine was a med load of about 1900 fps using a discontinued Speer 260 HP. This bullet is a favorite from my 45 Colt and 454 rifles.

I also founf the Barnes old 275 HP shot really well too using 296.

Granted, none of these are long range propositions but all are walnut shooters out past 100yards.

I have used a 200FTX a couple times in my 454 @ 2000 fps and find them fragile. I had one turn inside a 50# coyote and blow out his brisket on a 60-75 yard shot. I had another absolutely destroy the heart, Lungs & front of liver when it exploded inside a 150# Doe at about 20 yards. At the drop of the hammer, as if in slow motion she shuddered and dropped in the spot.

Good luck with the repairs! Ruger has been real good with me, so hope ta get the rifle back quickly

CW

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve sent the rifle to them before for repairs along with a vaquero. Both came back rather quickly. The vaquero went back as soon at it showed up for a second time. Who ever did the polishing job scratched the heck out it. Third time was a charm and they threw in fax ivory grips for the inconvenience. Ruger is quick on repairs and returns but I’ve learned if you don’t tell what needs to be done they won’t address the elephant in the room.

With my 450 I’ve only tried h110 .5 gr increments with the lee 300 grain FN from 27 gr through 40 grains so far. Went that high since the same action Ruger uses for the bushmaster is the same action they use for the 300 WSM ran up to 60,000PSI...and I wasn’t impressed with 27 through the 34.5 grain load’s Group results. The cases showed no signs of pressure all the way to the top 40 grain charge. I’m sure my optics slid in my rings (beside my high pressure loads)due to the scope base screw loosening up from not having a good fitment and not being bedded. Ruger placed that picatinny rail along with revaluing the rifle before I ever shot it. I believe the replacement rail was never checked for a good fit. It barely contacts the receive...just on the edges as you can see in my other posts. I will guarantee when I get my gun back after I bed the picatinny rail my optic will stay put. I started with lil gun powder and started my ladder test till I realized my optic can’t loose and broke. So only one powder. I did try .2 gr up and down from 35.5gr and then again with ac COWW alloy. So I tried 23 loads with h110 and two alloys before all heck broke loose when I tested with lil gun.


I forgot I casted up about 10 lbs of 7.5 Bh 44 mag devastor I never PC’d last fall due to old PC not sticking. I PC’d them today. I’m shooting sub MOA with this soft alloy at 1575fps. I might give it a try this fall as well. It’s 200 FPS slower than the load I used on the deer in this post and half the BH so it definitely should expand. I did some water tests with the boolit expanding a lot more with less weight retention and penatration than my 80/20 did in water....and the 80/20 never expanded through any of my deer I shot even after shattering ribs. The 7.5 Bh that consists of 16lbs of pure and a pound of pewter should expand on impact and make a big exit for a good blood trail if needed IMO. BUT my gut is telling me they will be more destructive on deer than the boolits I used in this post.

[cwlongshot]

As I mentioned to you before, I bought this LEE mold just for this rifle... I was disappointed when I needed to seat it so deeply and for that reason side lined the mold for this caliber.

H110, LilGun are not the friendliest of lead bullet powders... Are you running a GC?

Personally, I don't even use Lil Gun. I find it far too hot burning and prone to problems. Definitely not a lead bullet powder I would choose.

CW

[Tripplebeards]

AC COWW with 2% pewter added. Powder coated clear, weighed within a one grain variance, sized a thousands over bore, and Hornady gas checked.

http://i.imgur.com/10aZCWO.jpg



The farthest out I can seat this boolit is 2.055”. Any longer and it won’t cycle. Played with the various lengths making dummy rounds to see what cycled smoothly. I know I’m over AR loading with my load. The case and action show no signs of pressure but the rest of the flimsy, economy rifle was not made to take the abuse...so I agree with you. When the improperly machined factory scope rail is bedded with acraglass and 3M adhesive have been applied to the rings I’m sure the gun will be fine. The odds are the rings won’t need adhesive after the rail is needed but I will still do it just because. When I save up some more funds I’ll look into other molds and powders. Out of every powder I have H110 and lil gun were the only ones I was told would work for this caliber. It’s the first gun and mold I bought a year and a half ago when started cast making and loading. I switched over to my 77/44 after trying the 450 with the big lee. I bought a another lee, 310, a devastor, and the old lee HP 255 grain mold for the 44 mag. Quickly to find out the devastor was the most accurate of the three so I stuck with it till through this post so I could check out how it dose on deer.

I might go the other end of the spectrum and try some sub sonic loads this summer with the bushmaster and look into a suppressor if I don’t trade it for the 22” barreled version.

[megasupermagnum]

H110 not a cast bullet friendly powder? Lot's of guys get their most accurate loads with H110. I doubt 450 BM is any different.

[Tripplebeards]

When I started loading the 450 bushmaster the summer before last it seemed like like load data was non existent. H110 and lil gun were the only powders I saw listed at the time.

[Shingle]

Yote dogs start eating the "ss first, I lost a doe earlier this year to a bear what a pain.

[Tripplebeards]

Well, back to plan A for now. My 300 grain flat nose isn't feeding and jamming in my 450BM RAR so I loaded up a few devastators for my 77/44 with a lot softer alloy. It's a load I've shot sub MOA with. It's a 21 grain load of H110 with a BH of 7.5. Loaded up about a 150 so I can go plink with my other three 44's besides the 77/44.

My snapping turtle foot I just dried and varnished is guarding them.


http://i.imgur.com/0FrBEbo.jpg

[Schreck5]

Triplebeards... As to the trespassing dog, i would enact the law of the 3 S's. Problem solved.

Bruce

[Tripplebeards]

Well, I know this is an old thread but I went out yesterday and sighted in my 77/44 with a different optic on it and my softer 7.5 BH alloy I made from a 16:1 mix of pewter and pure lead flooring. Of course it’s the Lyman devastator PC, GC, and weighing in at 265 grains before firing. Three shots to get me dead center at 25 yards and then another three to zero at 100 yards. The last adjustment I hit a spot I drew on my target the diameter of a pencil eraser! Man, that gun shoots after I acraglassed the front tang area and lightened my trigger to approx 1 1/4 lbs... I love that little gun! I let my buddy try my gun and load out. He smacked an empty shotgun shell at 25 yards with it the first try! I dug the boolit out of the ground he shot and took it home and weighed it. I have it loaded at approx 1600FPS. It retained weight a lot better in the dirt backstop VS my waiter testing I did the summer before last. The boolits mushroomed nicely and must have hit a piece of gravel. The boolit weighed 154 grains and the piece laying right next to added up to 180 grains. It expanded to almost twice its original diameter. It didn’t go very deep in the soil like my really hard alloy dose but it expanded a lot better than the harder boolits do by far when shot in dirt.

My softer alloy reminds me more of how a softer Jword would expand...more like when I find a core loct at close range in my dirt piles. Hoping the more violent, rapid expansion will help put down game quicker. If not at least a bigger exit hole for better blood trails.

https://i.imgur.com/peQgVov.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9FZ2hCA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yaDmlG6.jpg

[cwlongshot]

For me 17-1800 is the magic velocity.

CW

[bluejay75]

For me 17-1800 is the magic velocity.

CW

I have observed the same thing. If you’re running a WFN at that velocity almost any alloy that us regular guys have will expand some. And it’s hard to keep almost any HP to stay in one piece.