458 Lott 730 grain

[Natenator]

Hi all,

New here but not to reloading and not to cast boolits, just cast boolits with modern powders. I ordered some Matt's Bullets 730 grain .458 gas checked hard cast for use in 458 Lott. Looking for recommended guidelines for starting charges and appropriate powders. I did search the forum but did not find what I was looking for.

Powders on hand are: IMR 3031, H4895, H4198, BLC2, H335, IMR 4064. Powders in my area of Ohio I can find are most IMR, Hodgdon and Alliant powders. I don't have the Quick loads program. Goal is velocity with accuracy for maximum penetration and impact (knock down). Especially needing maximum penetration for solid bone. Obviously I will need to work up my own load for my own rifle CZ550 American Safari, but I need a starting point and perhaps data that someone has worked within. Any help or direction would be appreciated.

Also will be working up a load for hard cast gas checked Lyman 550 grain (forget mould number but discontinued). Same powders, same inquiry.

First post so...about me. I live in central Ohio and am in law enforcement. On my 20th year of that. Shoulda been a firefighter.

Nate

[leadhead 500]

Welcome to the forum, the only person that I can think of on here that’s loaded the big lead in the 458 Lott is ( Ironduke ). I checked and he hasn’t been active for a couple months. You might send him a message on here and wait for him to reply back.

[Tatume]

In 2007 I did some testing for a commercial caster using a 458 Win Mag Ruger No. 1. The bullets were 720 grain WFNGC loaded to 1700 fps in Winchester cases. Powders used were IMR 4895, 4198 & 3031. Recoil was severe. If you want to know more, PM me.

[Natenator]

Thanks to both. PM sent Tatume

[725]

Welcome aboard. I have done some work with Ruger #1 .458 WM bored out to .458 Lott. Have shot a few 500 monolith solids but only at various book loads. More than enough for me. Even factory .458 WM's were such recoil producers, I looked for a way to tame it all down. Reviewing my notes, I find only .458 WM 350 grainish load data which is not what you are looking for.

One, unrelated to your request, thing is how I turned it all into a real ***** cat of a shooter. Being a two piece stock, I was able to install a mercury recoil reducer tube in the rear stock. (There are a few tricks to make it work well.) Also, I shortened the rear stock and installed a soft pad. Together, they make shooting heavy loads a breeze. Your CZ is a one piece stock, but there are still ways to install a merc tube and, of course, installing a soft recoil pad is easy.

Best of luck

ps; John Ross just posted a video on him shooting a 4 bore. PM him. He seems to know about shooting the big casts.

[Natenator]

CZ has a cavity in stock for Mercury reducer. Just needs opened a bit more. Is offered standard for 505 gibbs

[44Blam]

... recoil was severe ...

Seems to me that it has knock down capability at both ends!

[chuckbuster]

I wonder how much an Ohio NOn-Resident License Tyrannosaur license is?

[Natenator]

I wonder how much an Ohio NOn-Resident License Tyrannosaur license is?
Haha. Brontosaurus.

[Tatume]

The legal minimum cartridge is the 577 Tyrannosaur!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Tyrannosaur

[Winger Ed.]

The legal minimum cartridge is the 577 Tyrannosaur!]
Wow. Looks like you'd need the load data for .50BMG for that thing.

[leadhead 500]

I have shot the Lyman 462560 in a Ruger M77 458 Winchester magnum with a full bore load and it is about all you want ahold of out of sandbags from the bench

[Natenator]

I have shot the Lyman 462560 in a Ruger M77 458 Winchester magnum with a full bore load and it is about all you want ahold of out of sandbags from the bench

I have that bullet coming as well for use in the Lott. Do you remember or have the load available for it? I need a starting load with appropriate powders.

[leadhead 500]

Sent you a message on the Lyman

[44Blam]

The legal minimum cartridge is the 577 Tyrannosaur!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Tyrannosaur

Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
750 gr (49 g) Monolithic Solid 2,480 ft/s (760 m/s) 10,240 ft⋅lbf (13,880 J)

My lord - 10,240 ft-lb...

[leadhead 500]

You better own a wheel weight factory if you cast the 730 grain, that’s 9.5 bullets to a pound of lead

[Mr_Sheesh]

I suspect we're in "It's worse to SEND this than to receive it, almost" territory with some of these rounds, unless it's in a pintle-mounted weapon form?

[Natenator]

I suspect we're in "It's worse to SEND this than to receive it, almost" territory with some of these rounds, unless it's in a pintle-mounted weapon form?
Well, a .50 bmg at 20 lbs on one platform, 750 grain bullet at 3000 fps wasn't bad to me. I'm at at a 10lb rifle 730 grain bullet with likely under 2000 fps. I think I'll be okay. I've shot the Win Mag several times and recoil, while stiff wasn't uncomfortable for me. I'm 6' 240 and powerlift...if mass type makes a difference.

[lar45]

Hello and welcome to the forum.
Did you get some load data? I have quickload and could run some numbers if you want, but I'll need the bullet length and loaded length.
Glenn.

[Natenator]

Thank you Glenn. I will PM you probably Friday about it? No data yet. Even JD Jones didn't really have any ideas for me yet except quick loads.

[HollandNut]

I may have the same boolit for the Lott , forget where I got the mould from , but it looks like a 750 grain wadcutter .. See if I can find the pic .. I had a 462560 four cavity that I sold to wiljen several years ago , it's a hoss also ..
Same rifle Safari Classic with a European stock on her ..

http://s10.photobucket.com/user/GroovyJack/media/hammers.jpg.html?sort=3&o=138

http://s10.photobucket.com/user/GroovyJack/media/458645-3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=139

[Natenator]

233250. This is the Lyman 462560

[Natenator]

233305 Here's the Matt's bullets 730 grain.

[lar45]

Matts Bullets 730gn .458 bullet is 1.690" long with a .720" nose. So looking at a loaded length of 3.52"
This is only for Matts Bullets, if yours is a different length or has a different nose length, then this won't apply...
233254
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=84&products_id=319

Below are Quickload max loads, so reduce and work up checking velocities.
RL-15 65gns 1812fps @ 62kpsi 101% load density

RL-17 67gns 1760fps @ 48kpsi 100% load density

IMR 3031 60gns 1759fps @ 60Kpsi 100% load density

H 4895 62gns 1780fps @ 61kpsi 97% load density

BLC2 67gns 1896fps @ 62kpsi 96% load density- Maybe use a tuft of Dacron on top of the powder?

IMR 4064 61gns 1722fps @ 56kpsi 100% load density

This is just a computer simulation and not published or tested load data.

When I was loading 500gn cast for my 470NE, I used RL-15, a tuft of Dacron on top to hold everything in place and Fed 215 primers.

[HollandNut]

yeah the first pic I put up is my 750 next to the 462560 , the 750 is a NEI mould , yours looks like a long version of the 462560 . My 750 is 1.8" long ..

[HollandNut]

I have used loads in the neighborhood of what you posted there , be assured when you light it off , you will know ..

[tazman]

I used to have a 458 Win Mag many years ago and thought it was great to torch of the heavy boolit, full power loads. That thing killed on one end and maimed on the other.
I suspect the loads you are talking about would kill on both ends if I were the one shooting it.

[Natenator]

Matts Bullets 730gn .458 bullet is 1.690" long with a .720" nose. So looking at a loaded length of 3.52"
This is only for Matts Bullets, if yours is a different length or has a different nose length, then this won't apply...
233254
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=84&products_id=319

Below are Quickload max loads, so reduce and work up checking velocities.
RL-15 65gns 1812fps @ 62kpsi 101% load density

RL-17 67gns 1760fps @ 48kpsi 100% load density

IMR 3031 60gns 1759fps @ 60Kpsi 100% load density

H 4895 62gns 1780fps @ 61kpsi 97% load density

BLC2 67gns 1896fps @ 62kpsi 96% load density- Maybe use a tuft of Dacron on top of the powder?

IMR 4064 61gns 1722fps @ 56kpsi 100% load density

This is just a computer simulation and not published or tested load data.

When I was loading 500gn cast for my 470NE, I used RL-15, a tuft of Dacron on top to hold everything in place and Fed 215 primers.

Thank you very very much

[Natenator]

I've seen H4895 used for Matt's 730 grain in a win mag case 52-60 grains. 60 blew primer. I'll likely start with 52 grains in the Lott case and go up much slower than he did. He had pressure signs at 58 grains but he didn't see it apparently.

[njc110381]

Welcome to the forum Nate. As you can probably already tell, there are some really helpful guys on here and it's a great place to learn! I'm not new to casting but I wouldn't say I'm experienced either. I cast for my .45-70 and learned everything I know from this forum. It seems to work ok.

I just came here looking for .458 Lott info too, so in time maybe we can share our findings. I haven't picked up my rifle yet but it's a CZ550 Composite Safari. I'm planning to load it with the Lee 500gr gas checked flat nose as I already have the mould. Time will tell if it works out.

The issue I have is that we've lost a lot of American made powders because of a stupid new hazardous chemical law - a lot of Hodgdon group powders have something in them that means it is now banned. Most of the best powders are gone and I have to find recipes with Vihtavouri, Alliant, Reload Swiss etc. I'm gutted because I really wanted to make some Trail Boss loads but guess what - yeah it's gone!

I've heard similar loads can be made with Tinstar - Viht N32c. But finding data when you guys all use Trail Boss with perfect results is kind of tough. Most of our shooting info is US based and our little island is barely a consideration to big manufacturers of firearm stuff. It's just not a big enough market for them to need to cater for our stupid rules!

[lar45]

I've seen H4895 used for Matt's 730 grain in a win mag case 52-60 grains. 60 blew primer. I'll likely start with 52 grains in the Lott case and go up much slower than he did. He had pressure signs at 58 grains but he didn't see it apparently.

For the 730 in the 458 Win mag case, 52 grains of H4895 is a 103% load at 59kpsi, 60 grains is 99,800 psi at 119% compressed charge. So I'm not surprised that it blew a primer.

For the 730 in the 458 Lott case, 52 grains of H4895 is a 81% load at 36kpsi that should give around 1541fps, 60 grains is 55kpsi at 94%

H4895 should be safe to start at 52 grains with the 81% load density.

[Natenator]

Welcome to the forum Nate. As you can probably already tell, there are some really helpful guys on here and it's a great place to learn! I'm not new to casting but I wouldn't say I'm experienced either. I cast for my .45-70 and learned everything I know from this forum. It seems to work ok.

I just came here looking for .458 Lott info too, so in time maybe we can share our findings. I haven't picked up my rifle yet but it's a CZ550 Composite Safari. I'm planning to load it with the Lee 500gr gas checked flat nose as I already have the mould. Time will tell if it works out.

The issue I have is that we've lost a lot of American made powders because of a stupid new hazardous chemical law - a lot of Hodgdon group powders have something in them that means it is now banned. Most of the best powders are gone and I have to find recipes with Vihtavouri, Alliant, Reload Swiss etc. I'm gutted because I really wanted to make some Trail Boss loads but guess what - yeah it's gone!

I've heard similar loads can be made with Tinstar - Viht N32c. But finding data when you guys all use Trail Boss with perfect results is kind of tough. Most of our shooting info is US based and our little island is barely a consideration to big manufacturers of firearm stuff. It's just not a big enough market for them to need to cater for our stupid rules!

No IMR powders?

[njc110381]

Some but not all of them.

[Natenator]

Some but not all of them.

Perhaps IMR 3031 or 4895 would be good for your purposes. I can't find viht powders frequently enough for me to trust them. If u have access to accurate powders I forget which but one seems popular for the Lott. Sorry the wasted politics are getting in your way. USA not getting any better. Keep chipping away

[beagle]

Amen to that. I shot some 562560s out of my Number 1 Ruger .458 WM at 2200+. One box was enough. Normally the guys at the range will shoot anything but I had very few takers on this load. Had to finish the box myself. It was accurate but more than I wanted/needed./beagle


I have shot the Lyman 462560 in a Ruger M77 458 Winchester magnum with a full bore load and it is about all you want ahold of out of sandbags from the bench

[Natenator]

Amen to that. I shot some 562560s out of my Number 1 Ruger .458 WM at 2200+. One box was enough. Normally the guys at the range will shoot anything but I had very few takers on this load. Had to finish the box myself. It was accurate but more than I wanted/needed./beagle

Remember the load by chance?

[njc110381]

Perhaps IMR 3031 or 4895 would be good for your purposes. I can't find viht powders frequently enough for me to trust them. If u have access to accurate powders I forget which but one seems popular for the Lott. Sorry the wasted politics are getting in your way. USA not getting any better. Keep chipping away

I know 4895 is gone, will have to look up 3031.

What do you plan to shoot with those big chunks of lead? Didn't think you guys had big game in Ohio? Black bears and some deer? It'll certainly put them down quick!

[rrob692326]

There was a guy in Alaska who use to sell these, as I bought some from him years ago. I believe they were called Ranger Rick's Tyrannosaurus stompers.

[swheeler]

There was a guy in Alaska who use to sell these, as I bought some from him years ago. I believe they were called Ranger Rick's Tyrannosaurus stompers.

I remember these and Ranger Rick, pretty sure someone at Accurate Reloading Forum was shooting these out of the Lott at 1900 fps, seems like H335 or AA 2230 powder was used.

[HollandNut]

yeah it was Ranger Rick , I got some really heavy 458 , 480 and 500 SW hard casts from him way back .. He had samples he would ship out for a few bucks .. I maybe wrong but IIRC , I checked later and he was out of business , I think he was getting his stuff from someone else and calling them his , or someone else was selling his stuff calling it theirs .. Great boolits and accurate

[lar45]

Ranger Rick had his own molds and cast his own, and lubed them with Carnauba Red. His first webpage was on my site.
When he went out of business, he put many of the molds up for auction and I ended up with several of them, but we had a fire in our shop several years ago and most of my 100+ molds were destroyed in the fire.
Matt's Bullets is casting a pretty good selection of Big Bullets.

[Natenator]

I remember these and Ranger Rick, pretty sure someone at Accurate Reloading Forum was shooting these out of the Lott at 1900 fps, seems like H335 or AA 2230 powder was used.

1900 fps!! Yikes

[swheeler]

That would be a thumper I'm betting!

[khmer6]

whoa. interested in details. i have a cz550 in 458lott that has only seen solids through it. would love a cheaper alternative too!

[HollandNut]

plenty of good casts out there and some great moulds if you want to throw your own .. 90% of whats run run thru my CZ550 Safari Classic has been cast ..

[Natenator]

plenty of good casts out there and some great moulds if you want to throw your own .. 90% of whats run run thru my CZ550 Safari Classic has been cast ..

Majority of mine will be cast as well. Have some 730's loaded up for tests and while I'm snowed in this weekend I'll work on my 550's as well.

[Natenator]

plenty of good casts out there and some great moulds if you want to throw your own .. 90% of whats run run thru my CZ550 Safari Classic has been cast ..

Majority of mine will be cast as well. Have some 730's loaded up for tests and while I'm snowed in this weekend I'll work on my 550's as well.

[rrob692326]

It looks like from my inquiries that Rick had some legal issues and unfortunately took an unscheduled all expenses paid vacation.

[frank505]

We’ve shot that bullet in a Ruger 458 #1. I think the load was 58 grains of 3031. Please check that Glenn. Rather odd results though. Wally shot into a Texas hill country dirt(?) pile. Made a cavity I could wiggle my fist in. Shot one later into a sand bank of Wyoming. Same results and no bullet was found or pieces. ??? Me thinks the bullet came back out. Bullet tracks in the sand here are easy to follow and recover a slug. Too bad we couldn’t find a hog to thump with that bullet. Still got the mold if anybody wants it......

[fredj338]

I had a Lott for a brief time but I honestly do not see the point of a solid much heavier than 550gr. You have to drive the 600gr+ bullets quite a bit slower & that can actually affect penetration. Not to mention recoil goes way up.
I sold mine, just too much of a good thing in a 9.5# rifle. I went to a 404jeffery for my thumper rig. So far, two shots, two cape buffalo. Plenty of horsepower.

[bmortell]

needing load for 1/8th pound slug? HOW MUCH DID YOU FEED THE DEER :veryconfu

[stubshaft]

We’ve shot that bullet in a Ruger 458 #1. I think the load was 58 grains of 3031. Please check that Glenn. Rather odd results though. Wally shot into a Texas hill country dirt(?) pile. Made a cavity I could wiggle my fist in. Shot one later into a sand bank of Wyoming. Same results and no bullet was found or pieces. ??? Me thinks the bullet came back out. Bullet tracks in the sand here are easy to follow and recover a slug. Too bad we couldn’t find a hog to thump with that bullet. Still got the mold if anybody wants it......

Which mold is it, the 730 or 462560? PM me as I'd might be interested in it.
Joe

[rrob692326]

Here is the guy in Australia that will make the exact bullet mold for what you want. (9th bullet mold down on page)
http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/bullet-moulds/rifle/458-calibre?Page=3&Items=12
best of luck

[Harry O]

Does anyone here know what a "hardness test" is used for? We design for strength (tension, compression, or shear, and yield or ultimate), we design for ductility, we design for buckling, we design for stiffness (ask me about a football stadium that had to be redesigned because it was not stiff enough to withstand the "we will...we will....rock you" foot stomping chant), we design for a lot of things. But have you ever heard of anyone designing for hardness (there is actually one case I know of where we do design for hardness, but it is so rare that most engineers will never run across it)? If it is so rarely used in design, why are hardness tests (and there are more than a half dozen kinds) used universally by engineers worldwide?

[lar45]

Does anyone here know what a "hardness test" is used for?
If it is so rarely used in design, why are hardness tests (and there are more than a half dozen kinds) used universally by engineers worldwide?
It can be used to predict tensile strength, wear resistance or any number of design characteristics where it is not practical or possible to test the piece to destruction.

[725]

I have to ask you, gentlemen; What is the intended target for these, shoulder fired, wheel-less, field pieces? My Lott lives a much tamer life and still I can't imagine the beast that would not fall to it. If it's a case of "just 'cause", I'm all in favor of watching and wish you well, but my old bones couldn't take it. If possible, post a video! :)

[458mag]

I have to ask you, gentlemen; What is the intended target for these, shoulder fired, wheel-less, field pieces? My Lott lives a much tamer life and still I can't imagine the beast that would not fall to it. If it's a case of "just 'cause", I'm all in favor of watching and wish you well, but my old bones couldn't take it. If possible, post a video! :)

I used to have a 458LOTT and it was just to much for me, shooting supposed to be fun!!!. I imagine when you have a 10ft griz heading towards you one might wonder if He has enough rifle. Heard of one guides client getting cold feet and running off on Him.

[Natenator]

I have to ask you, gentlemen; What is the intended target for these, shoulder fired, wheel-less, field pieces? My Lott lives a much tamer life and still I can't imagine the beast that would not fall to it. If it's a case of "just 'cause", I'm all in favor of watching and wish you well, but my old bones couldn't take it. If possible, post a video! :)

Since it appears I'm pioneering this bullet (at least willing to share) in the 458 Lott I will be posting video and my findings. My reasons for a 730 grain bullet? Genesis 6:1-4 and Matthew 24:37. Have a 454 Casull with 360's for backup.