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KirkD
10-07-2008, 02:41 PM
An unexpected change in my schedule today freed some time up to head down to the range over the lunch hour. My first experience at the range with my 'new' Winchester Model 1892 38 W.C.F. (38-40) made in 1913 showed me that I had some load development to do, so today I tried four loads and chronographed them as well. Here is the data:

Bullet: RCBS plain base, 188 grain lubed and sized

Loads:

16 grains of 5744, bullet sized to .401 .... 1,146 fps, E.S.= 33 fps, S.D. = 14 fps.
16 grains of 5744, bullet unsized at .404 .... 1.146 fps
20 grains of IMR 4198, bullet sized to .401 ... 1,322 fps, E.S.= 93 fps, S.D.= 35 fps
14 grains of 2400, bullet sized to .401 ... 1,200 fps, E.S.= 40 fps, S.D.= 14 fps

Note: after more than 50 rounds between my two visits to the range, there is no trace of leading. Bore is shiny with strong, sharp rifling.

Range and Rest: All targets were shot at 100 yards, resting my rifle on my shooting bag on a bench. Open iron sights.

RESULTS:

16 grains of 5744, bullet sized to .401: With a 5-shot group of 4 & 3/8" at 100 yards, this wasn't the tightest group I've ever seen in my life, but considering that this rifle would be used for Whitetail Deer at ranges of 100 yards or less, it would certainly get the bullets into the boiler room. However, I want at least 1,300 fps for a hunting load. Here's the target ...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/38-16-5744-sized.jpg

16 grains of 5744, bullet unsized at .404: I wanted to see what a larger diameter bullet would do with the same load as above, so I hand-lubed 5 of them and let 'er rip downrange. This gave me a 5-shot group at 100 yards of 3 & 1/2". Not bad, but not good enough yet to do brain surgery at 100 yards. Here's the target ....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/38-16-5744-unsized.jpg

20 grains of IMR 4198, bullet sized to .401: Like I said, I'd like somewhere between 1,350 and 1,400 fps for my deer load, so I figured I'd try IMR 4198. The thinking on this one was that the bullet would get a bit gentler send-off for the same muzzle velocity. I took a shot and couldn't see it on the paper with my little binoculars, so I took a stroll down and saw that it was on target. I marked it and you can see it in the photo below (fastest bullet). I then went back and took the remaining four shots. I was surprised at the E.S. of 93 fps; I don't normally get that kind of E.S. with IMR 4198. It turned out that my first shot was the fastest, 55 fps faster than average and 93 fps faster than the slowest shot. The horizontal spread was only 2 & 7/16", and I strongly suspect that the larger vertical spread is due to the 93 fps extreme spread, especially since I confirmed that the highest hole was also the fastest velocity. I have to say that I'm pleased with this, considering the 1,322 fps average velocity and that all bullets would be in the vitals for a deer broadside. Now I just got to get that E.S. down and maybe I'll have a vertical spread of only 2 & 1/2". There are two ways to do this. One is to use a bit of toilet paper filler and reduce the charge slightly. That never fails to give more consistent burning and a much lower E.S. The second option is to increase the load another grain or two. I also might want to try IMR 3031 for a capacity load. Anyway, here's the target ....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/38-20gr-4198.jpg

14 grains of 2400, bullet sized to .401: Finally, I figured I'd try 2400. The thinking behind this one is that it is faster than 5744, so it might bump up the bullet a bit better and improve accuracy. When the smoke had cleared and I saw my target, four shots were within 1 & 13/16" and the fifth shot widened the group to 3 & 1/2" at 100 yards. This is definitely encouraging and warrants further experimentation with 2400. Still, the velocity is only 1,200 fps, but I'm going to try a bit more 2400 to see how it does at higher velocities. 2400 just might turn out to be the cat's whiskers for this bullet and rifle. Here's the photo of the target ....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/38-14gr-2400.jpg

I don't plan to use this old classic Winchester this year for deer (I'm using a Winchester 30-30 carbine made in 1954, named 'Old Savage' for deer this year), but I just couldn't wait to see how this old Winchester would do. For those of you who haven't seen my old rifle, she's an honest rifle that's earned its keep over the past 95 years. Here she is ....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/38-40.jpg

Just Duke
10-07-2008, 02:54 PM
That was the best and organized range report I have seen in along time sir. Just for kicks and to make sure you have a controled experiment, have you given the barrel a thorough cleaning?
Leading?
I'd try slowing them down to period velocities.

KirkD
10-07-2008, 02:58 PM
After my first time out, I could not see any trace of leading whatsoever, so I figured I'd try it as is. Now, after more than 50 rounds, there still is not the faintest trace of leading. The bore is shiny with strong rifling.

Don McDowell
10-07-2008, 03:21 PM
Kirk looking good, but I'ld thinking working around the 2400 load and maybe a bit to tweaking on the 17 gr of 5744 from the other day is going to show you the best accuracy. Got any 4227, or better yet maybe some Goex 3f express?

KirkD
10-07-2008, 04:25 PM
Don, I'm going to focus on 2400 and hope it will give me decent groups a 1,400 fps. If it does, I'll probably not do further work with IMR 4198 ... well, I might try 22 grains.

Don McDowell
10-07-2008, 05:21 PM
Kirk in an elderly Lyman/Ideal load manual I have around here it lists 17.0 up to 23.6 grs 2400 with the standard 180 gr plain based bullet for the 38-40 rifle. Claimed velocity at max is 1940 fps.
They did not list a 2400 for the pistol rounds.

KirkD
10-07-2008, 06:09 PM
Don, that is interesting info. It's good to know a published upper limit for 2400 for that cartridge and bullet weight. I don't plan to go anywhere near 1,900 fps ... I'd probably have serious leading with a ww PB boolet. But it looks like I got plenty of room to increase from 14 grains.

Don McDowell
10-07-2008, 06:31 PM
Kirk I've shoved ww bullets to near 1800

NHlever
10-07-2008, 06:36 PM
The new Speer loading manual (#14) lists loads for the 38-40 using the RCBS 180 cast bullet. The closest they come to your desired velocity is with a max load of 15.0 grains of AA 5744 for 1309 fps in their gun. (24" test barrel). They also list 12.5 grains of Viht. N105 for 1514 fps, and 8.4 grains of Viht. N350 for 1314 fps. They don't list Alliant 2400 at all........ too bad. A Lazer Cast loading book I have lists a max load of 13.0 grains of 2400 for 1101 fps. My older (cover is gone so I don't know the version) Lyman book lists max loads of 10.2 grains of Unique for 1582 fps, 23.6 grains of 2400 for 1980 fps, and 26.0 grains of IMR 4227 for 1996 fps. A lot of variation here, but perhaps it will help some. That is great shooting with a great gun!