Question about Lee 4-20 flow rate

[MeestaSparkle]

Hey,
I am pretty new to casting and have been unable to get satisfactory results with my lee pro 4-20 pot. I have spent many hours casting at different temperatures from very low to way too high (as well as at different mold temps), varied the flow rate at all temperatures as much as the lee allows, I've thoroughly and repeatedly cleaned the molds and the pot, etc... I've even tried 4 or 5 different alloys varying the tin content (all while varying only one variable at a time to ensure useful info), tilting the molds in various ways, pouring from different heights including force filling,.....I have also cast at least 50-100 bullets in each test (i.e. I am not talking changing one variable and then trying 3 boolits... this has been very extensive). Niether my 314299 nor my lyman 9mm (forget the number) nor my 6 cavity lee 9mm will cast usable boolits with the bottom pour (almost always poor fillout, voids, lots of oxide inclusions, etc..). I've tried just about everyone's advice that I have come across. It's literally been hours upon hours of trying to get this right.

I say all this to avoid the suggestions I have already tried. You will have to trust me on this one.. I tried EVERYTHING i could find on casting methods, etc. and nothing has worked. I've been at this maybe 5 or 6 months now and I've been very patient..

So.. I Went out and bought a ladle to try, and Voila! Good boolits almost immediately in all molds, with a modest reject rate even!. This is ok for 314299, but I want plinking pistol boolits and ladle casting is just to slow to be economical for me in that role, especially for 9mm. Plus, I did not buy a bottom pour pot so I could exclusively ladle cast!

So.. with that out of the way.. I want your suggestions on what could be wrong with my pot. I wonder if this is because of the flow rate. The ladle flow rate is much, much higher than the lee with it's very tiny spout hole (My spout hole is about twice the diameter of a small paper clip wire, maybe 0.060" at most). So I am wondering, if I drill out my spout hole, do you think that could help? I know flow velocity on the bottom pour will be higher, so I am not sure if enlarging the hole will cause problems or not. Any ideas on what else could be wrong, or if I do this about how big to make it? If I can't make this bottom pour pot work soon, especially after seeing how immediately well the ladle worked... this pot is going to become a target for some ladle cast boolits!

THanks :-D,
Meestasparkle

[44man]

Now you know why all of us old geezers use a LADLE! :bigsmyl2:

[pdawg_shooter]

I have plugged my Lee drip-o-matic and ladle cast only. Get much more uniform bullets that way anyway.

[Tom W.]

This old geezer still likes the bottom pour Lee pot. Once I got the flow to my liking I left it alone......And it seldom drips....

[Maven]

Maybe the solution is to drill out the spout orifice and channel* so that it is approx. the same size as that of the ladle and to get a casting thermometer? Just a guess based on my experience with the 4-20, but I think the temp. at the bottom of the pot is much higher than that of the surface, i.e., where you'd fill your ladle. A thermometer would allow you to fine tune the temperature enough to avoid spout "freeze up" on the one extreme or frosted CB's (not really a bad thing) on the other.


*These are supposedly removable and replaceable.

[MeestaSparkle]

Maybe the solution is to drill out the spout orifice and channel* so that it is approx. the same size as that of the ladle and to get a casting thermometer? Just a guess based on my experience with the 4-20, but I think the temp. at the bottom of the pot is much higher than that of the surface, i.e., where you'd fill your ladle. A thermometer would allow you to fine tune the temperature enough to avoid spout "freeze up" on the one extreme or frosted CB's (not really a bad thing) on the other.


*These are supposedly removable and replaceable.


I built a PID temperature controller and have a thermocouple near the spout on the bottom.. so temperature should not be an issue... I set the temp digitally and it holds it to within 10 degrees or so depending on how i've tuned it. I also have a "floating" temperature probe that I used instead when using the ladle so I could measure the temperature anywhere in the pot. Your suggestion about the orifice is what I was thinking... you can buy them from lee cheap enough if I break it.. I am not sure about what diameter though. The pressure on the bottom of the pot is higher than it is in a ladle... so I thought I might need to go smaller.. or maybe not.. I don't know!. Has anyone tried anything like this and have some results? If not I guess I can try it and let you guys know how it works.

Thanks for replies!

[rhead]

I get better results at about two thirds full. something else to try if you haven't already. I also have some molds that just insist on a ladel.

[docone31]

Is some crud from the melt blocking the spout?
Everyonce in a while, I push a paperclip in and out. Slag seems to find its way in.
Also, how close is the valve rod to the opening in the pot. I might suggest screwing it out a bit also.
I get some good pours on long castings with mine.
I crank up the heat also.

[MeestaSparkle]

I forgot to mention the pot fullness.. but that was another variable I tested for. I tried everything from 25% full to near 90%.

As far as spout clean-ness goes. I got that paper clip trick on here to and I use it. The spout is kept clean as is the pot (I pretty much emptied and cleaned the hole thing thoroughly after every few tests to eliminate that variable).

As far as the valve rod... if i understand correctly what you are saying, I've tried all the ranges the pot will allow.. from barely preventing a leak to closed down as much as possible, and various increments in between.

Thanks again for the help :)

As an aside semi-rant..

.. Maybe I got a lemon.. I seem to have TERRIBLE luck with the stuff I've gotten lately. My brand new RCBS lubrisizer from midway has a hole in the side of the casting that spews out all my lubricant... They will replace it but want me to ship it on my own $$... My brand new LNL AP has a couple problems I have to fix, my RCBS lock-out die will not work (I think it's just enough out of spec), I had to remake parts for me lee dies because they too were out of spec... My RCBS die came NIB with a decapping pin that's WAAAY off center... It's all stuff I can fix in the shop but what ever happened to stuff working out of the box!? I like to tinker but some times I want to shoot too!

[straight-shooter]

Try this... with the pot up to temp and filled with lead. Turn the flow rate adjustment screw all the way down till it's just snug. Then turn the rod about 6 times around then readjust your flow rate screw. This will help clean the spout mouth. When I do this the flow rate will substantially increase to a smoother flow.

[jsizemore]

There was a thread started by mellonhead titled " Noobie question" that might help with your problem. I used the #2 pencil on my mold and my fill out problem was cured using my Lee 20-4 bottom pour pot. After my 4th application of the pencil my shot came out purdy.

[Shiloh]

Maybe the solution is to drill out the spout orifice and channel* so that it is approx. the same size as that of the ladle and to get a casting thermometer? Just a guess based on my experience with the 4-20, but I think the temp. at the bottom of the pot is much higher than that of the surface, i.e., where you'd fill your ladle. A thermometer would allow you to fine tune the temperature enough to avoid spout "freeze up" on the one extreme or frosted CB's (not really a bad thing) on the other.


*These are supposedly removable and replaceable.

This is a great idea Maven!!
The bottom pour takes a little effort to get it "In the Zone" but once there, it works fine and is FAST!! Maybe I will try this tweaking this late fall and winter. There is still shooting to be done.

Shiloh :castmine:

[AZ-Stew]

I drilled out the nozzles on both Lee pots I owned. The hole is too small. I'm not sure, but I think I used a .156 dia drill. You don't want a gaping hole, just one that's big enough to speed up the flow to about double the rate you get from the out-of-the-box pot.

They cast very nicely once you open the throttle a bit.

Regards,

Stew

[MeestaSparkle]

I drilled out the nozzles on both Lee pots I owned. The hole is too small. I'm not sure, but I think I used a .156 dia drill. You don't want a gaping hole, just one that's big enough to speed up the flow to about double the rate you get from the out-of-the-box pot.

They cast very nicely once you open the throttle a bit.

Regards,

Stew

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for :-D. We'll see how it goes, maybe I can post some before and after results.

[zampilot]

I love this site! LOTS of good answers and convincing opinions.

[runfiverun]

my older pot actually flows too fast, and i had to put a stop on it to slow it down.
when you get the cheapest available equipment, you get the cheapest equipment available.
but the way that everybody has been getting into casting and reloading lately, quality is going to be a bit lax.

[454PB]

That same dark yellow dross that collects in the nozzle also deposits on the metering rod. It needs to be cleaned.

It seems to me that those of us that cast thousands of boolits with a ladle and then went to a bottom draw have less problems than those that started out with a bottom draw. I think the mechanics involved in casting good boolits is learned with a ladle, and carried over to the use of a bottom draw. The "feel" for flow rate, mould filling angle, and distance from the valve are learned through experience with both methods.

[yondering]

I drilled out the nozzles on both Lee pots I owned. The hole is too small. I'm not sure, but I think I used a .156 dia drill. You don't want a gaping hole, just one that's big enough to speed up the flow to about double the rate you get from the out-of-the-box pot.

They cast very nicely once you open the throttle a bit.

Regards,

Stew

+1 on that. I had to open up the nozzle on my 4-20 pot as well. I can't remember, but .156" sounds about right. You don't need to open it up much, definitely not to the size of your ladle spout. There is a lot more pressure behind the spout on a full pot than there is on a ladle.
By opening up the spout, you will still be able to use the metering rod to control the flow rate, it just takes less adjustment. On mine, wide open flows way too fast, and splashes lead everywhere, but a slight turn of the adjustment screw gets me a nice heavy flow, without being too much. You will need to adjust the screw as the pot gets low.

[imashooter2]

For you a ladle works and a bottom pour doesn't. Why not spend your energy learning to ladle cast faster?

[flinchnjerk]

Changing the spout's a ten minute job...or a five minute job, if you have eight fingers and two thumbs, rather than the ten thumbs that I have. Lee lists the spout for $3.50; for that price you could buy a few and drill them out to various diameters, to see what works best. As an aside, I find that a panel nail works much better than a paper clip for clearing the spout.

[cajun shooter]

I cannot believe that there really is some one else on this terra ferma that has the same black cloud that I have. MS I had to grin(please don't be mad) when I read your post. One of my favorite things that I tell people is that if in the morning visit to the throne if I would start passing "GOLD" every one would want to buy SILVER!! I had the same problem with my 4-20. I then started filling it up and leaving it alone for about 30 minutes before casting. With my pot the spout will then reach the correct temp and pour bullets great. As far as the drip every one seems to have a problem with I just leave an ingot mold under it and throw the drips back in the pot when it fills up.

[Cherokee]

This is one old guy that uses bottom pour lee pots all the time and have no problem. Been doing it ever since lee came out with them, loooooooog time ago.

[yondering]

I can't remember, but .156" sounds about right. You don't need to open it up much, definitely not to the size of your ladle spout. There is a lot more pressure behind the spout on a full pot than there is on a ladle.

After some thought, I'll take back part of what I said here. Since the Lee spouts are so cheap, it might be worth a try to drill one out to the same diameter as your ladle. Just don't drill bigger than the metering rod. You will have to keep the metering rod adjustment turned down to limit the flow, but you should be able to get the high volume/ low velocity flow characteristics of a ladle.

Ladles pour at a high volume but low pressure/velocity at the spout, while the bottom pour pots are the opposite. The small spout opening and big pot of lead on top creates a high pressure/ high velocity, low volume flow, as the Lee pots come from the factory. Drilling out the spout allows more volume at lower velocity; the metering rod adjustment restricts the flow so you can have a low velocity, high volume flow. The high volume flow is important to fill the mold quickly, and is why some guys prefer ladle pouring, especially for big boolits.