Just got a 45/70. Any recommendations for 2000fps?

[Stopsign32v]

Been wanting one and wanting one. Had a Marlin JM 1895 CB 26” fall out of the sky for $750 and jumped. So now I will be casting and reloading for 45/70.

I’m wanting a nice thump so I can tell it from my 45 Colt Marlins so I was thinking of sending 405gr at around 2000fps. Any opinions here? Will be mainly a 100 yard shooter and won’t be shot too often.

[country gent]

Ouch ouch ouch

[Mitch]

lol *&^^%$# ouch
Better try something a bit less first

[scattershot]

That Marlin will kick you into next week with a load like that. Start LOW and work your way up.

[WHITETAIL]

:Fire:Congrats on getting a Marlin CB.
I am shooting one right now.
You need to check the bore first.
Get some brass, and powder.
And we can go from there.

[rhill]

you may dislocate your shoulder with that one!

[Hamish]

Load ONE to that velocity that's within pressure limits and then you can decide if you'd care to proceed any farther,,,,,,,.

The original .45 Govt. was designed to shoot through a horse from stem to stern.

[samari46]

I've a Ruger #1 in 45/70 and factory 300 grain JHP's at 1800 fps is a comfortable load for me. Decided to load some up with RL 7 and that nice comfortable carbine turned into a bucking beast. Last time I tried that one. Since you are wanting a 405 grain bullet would suggest you have a really good butt pad installed. You'll run out of shoulder way before you hit 2000 fps. Frank

[country gent]

Most load the 45-70 to those specs once or twice then back to original loadings around 1200 fps. On a light rifle the 405 at even 1500-1600 fps is going to be pretty stout recoil in the lighter rifles. My Sharps, Roller and Brochardt are in the 12-13lb weight range and recoil with a 500-550 grn bullet at 1200 fps takes its toll over a match still. Brass lasts a lot longer at these loadings also.

I would really recommend starting with the trapdoor level loads and working up from there in this rifle, Its easier to not develop flinch or a scope eyebrow than to get over it.

[44Blam]

I have a NOE 460-396-RF-AE2 mould that drops at about 380 grain with the cup point. I load that one up with 52 grain of Varget and I get a pretty consistent 1800-1830 fps. This is almost 3000 foot lbs of energy at the muzzle end! But, that load is JUST under my recoil tolerance - my friend said it "kicks like Chuck Norris". Any more recoil and it's not really fun anymore.
My rifle is the Marlin 1895 with the 22" barrel. My boolits are cast with the NOE mould and my lead is fairly hard, powder coated and gas checked.

[GregLaROCHE]

Go for it, but work up to it. I for one would like to follow your progress. Keep us posted.

[Stopsign32v]

What mold would be the best for feeding in the 1895 and also a flatter nose for a heck of a punch when it makes contact with the target?

I researched a 45/70 mold that was popular but isn't made anymore and is now made by Noe....? I can't remember the name

Edit: Ranch Dog is what I was thinking of

[osteodoc08]

Varget, 8208 XBR and Benchmark have been my go to powders for all out Marlin 1895 velocity. The lower end to mid loadings do all I need that caliber to do however. I don’t need to dig a hole on the other side of my game animals or paper targets.

[Stopsign32v]

Yea 2000fps might be 500 or so too high now that I think of it lol

Will be ringing steel at 100

[44Blam]

What mold would be the best for feeding in the 1895 and also a flatter nose for a heck of a punch when it makes contact with the target?

I researched a 45/70 mold that was popular but isn't made anymore and is now made by Noe....? I can't remember the name

Edit: Ranch Dog is what I was thinking of

the full hollow point ones drop around 320 grain. I shoot 56 grain of varget under that one - haven't chrono'd it yet, but it may be in the 2000 fps range... It kicks the same as the bigger boolit. Will have to shoot some of those soon. ;)

These are them:
232776

[44Blam]

I have a NOE 460-396-RF-AE2 mould that drops at about 380 grain with the cup point. I load that one up with 52 grain of Varget and I get a pretty consistent 1800-1830 fps. This is almost 3000 foot lbs of energy at the muzzle end! But, that load is JUST under my recoil tolerance - my friend said it "kicks like Chuck Norris". Any more recoil and it's not really fun anymore.
My rifle is the Marlin 1895 with the 22" barrel. My boolits are cast with the NOE mould and my lead is fairly hard, powder coated and gas checked.

These are the boolits:
232777

As loaded:
232778

[jmort]

I cannot imagine red-lining a JM 45-70.
I keep mine sedate
But it seems there is always someone who has no problem with the recoil in that gun. I am not that guy.

[knifemaker]

I would advise to forget using a 405 gr. bullet at 2000 fps in your Marlin 1895. It will rattle your teeth and bruise the heck out of your shoulder. I know from experience. I have that rifle and my hunting load is a 350 gr. bullet, cast or jacket, backed by 43 gr. of IMR-4198 for about 1875 fps. It is a comfortable load to shoot, but I am not recoil sensitive. It is also at 29,000 CUP in pressure and will not create excessive wear on your rifle. I have taken 4 buffalo with the 350 gr. load and all four were one shot kills and only one bullet was ever recovered as the rest was a complete pass though.
If you plan to use that rifle for only deer or elk hunting, I would even drop down to a 300 gr. bullet at 1800-1900 fps for a flat shooting load that will drop your game animal and be easy on the shoulder.

[Bird]

1300 to 1400fps is plenty for a 405 grain bullet, and doable without a gas check. 1700 to 1800fps for a 300 grain bullet is also plenty.
You just reminded me that I have 200 rounds of 300 grain-2150fps ammo to dismantle. They were the most accurate ammo I have, but I can not tolerate shooting these things anymore. These were loaded for an 1886 winchester takedown rifle,. A heavier rifle than the marlin, but still way too much recoil.

[M-Tecs]

IMR 4198 works very well for me for this type of load.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/901164/Favorite_IMR_4198_loads_for_45

Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
Bullet Type; Bullet Weight; Bullet Diameter; C.O.L.; Powder Type; Powder Charge; Primer Type; Muzzle Velocity
Barnes X FN; 250 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 48.1 grains; CCI 200; 2330 fps
Barnes Original FP; 300 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 52.9 grains; CCI 200; 2309 fps
Nosler Partition; 300 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 53.8 grains; CCI 200; 2324 fps
Remington JHP; 300 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 53.3 grains; CCI 200; 2305 fps
Hornady RN; 350 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 47.0 grains; CCI 200; 1995 fps
Hawk FP; 350 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 47.5 grains; CCI 200; 1980 fps
Speer Hot-Cor FN; 350 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 48.0 grains; CCI 200; 2119 fps
Barnes Original FP; 400 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 43.7 grains; CCI 200; 1930 fps
Speer Flat Nose; 400 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 46.2 grains; CCI 200; 1977 fps
Remington JSP; 405 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 45.1 grains; CCI 200; 1936 fps
Woodleigh FN; 405 grains; .458"; 2.540"; IMR 4198; 45.0 grains; CCI 200; 1944 fps
All loads crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Loads are maximum, reduce by 10% and work up carefully.
Source: http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

[GregLaROCHE]

I have four different Lee molds 340 to 500grns. I enjoy the 500 the most, however I don’t use as much powder as for a 405. The new Marlins are a lot tougher and can take a lot more pressure for sure than the old trapdoors. However, they are not the strongest .45-70’s built today.

If you really want to go for the high speed, you are probably better off with 340grns. Maybe a faster boolit will shoot a little flatter, but there is always a trade off. A heavier boolit will have better knock down power, especially at a greater distance.

The Lee molds are cheap and you can afford to experiment with several sizes. Montana bullet works sells cast boolits from some of the more expensive molds. There are probably other casters who sell similar boolits too. Best to try before you buy so you are happy with what you get.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/

[brass410]

rotflmao , WOW, just WOW that's gonna leave some marks after 40 or 50 shots. I,m 6'3 280lbs and not an old geezer by any means I feed my outdoor woodstove 4' bolts of ash maple and oak and even I find anything over 1500fps in my ruger #1 nasty. BUT pain is like pleasure how much can you enjoy?

[Tatume]

Your goal is achievable.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

Hodgdon data for cast bullets (Trapdoor loads) peak at 1700 fps, but you can reach 2000 fps with H4198. The Limbsaver recoil pad takes a lot of the bite out.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/limbsaver-precision-fit-recoil-pad-4-23-32x1-5-8-black-10102-697438101029.do

That said, the Hodgdon Trapdoor loads of IMR 3031 (1600-1700 fps) will get the job done.

[Texas by God]

That's the quickest way to take the fun out of the Grand Old Cartridge. It never needed high velocity and doesn't now. A 405 gr. @ 2000 fps will start loosening things- on you and that sweet Marlin[emoji16]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[redhawk0]

Do yourself a favor and just order a new stock set now....I see cracks in your future.

redhawk

[Tatume]

I've had a lot of fun with very powerful 45-70 loadings, all the while dreaming of going to Alaska and Africa. Brian Pierce used a Marlin 45-70 on Cape Buffalo, and as I recall drilled a bull and killed the cow on the other side of him. Both animals were tagged and utilized. The cartridge is very capable of astonishing feats, and the Marlin rifle is a very strong platform for it. Mine has absorbed lots of recoil impulses from firing 400 grain bullets at 2000 fps, and shows no signs of wear. That said, I haven't made it to Alaska or Africa, and certainly don't NEED such a powerful loading for anything. I've sold my 458 Win Mag Ruger No. 1 (but kept the 375 H&H No. 1, one never knows, does one?).

I've done it, and people here who say it's not needed, extra punishing, etc. are correct. It is certainly a handful. But if the OP wants to shoot some loads that would be appropriate for brown bear, why not? Have fun. That's what it's all about.

[Stopsign32v]

So maybe stick with no more than 1500fps?

[flint45]

Yea start slow and work up carefully. Have fun that is one fun gun to work with so many loads to try stay safe my friend.

[Kraschenbirn]

So maybe stick with no more than 1500fps?

Yup! I don't have a Marlin 1895 but I do have an H&R Trapdoor carbine that's in the same weight bracket and can state from personal experiences that 405s pushed to the top end of Category 1 loads are NOT all that much fun after the first 15 or 20 rounds. There really was a reason that original Gov't issue BP loads came in two flavors: 500 gr. RNs over 70 grs. of powder for rifles and 405s over 55 gr. for carbines. Btw, I'm just a bit over 6'0", 200 lbs, and have never been accused of being 'recoil sensitive'

Bill

[murf205]

So maybe stick with no more than 1500fps?
You are doing yourself a big favor if you do, but like Tatume said, go ahead and feel the "fun" then take some steam outa' that load for 90% of hunting/target shooting. I had to feel the fun for a while as well but it gets old in a hurry.

[17nut]

I push the RCBS 425gr gaschecked to @1850fps with "ease".
I doubht you'll find critters in the US that needs more punch including pissed off bears, rabid moose and greyhound busses.

232797

[robg]

Can you film yourself shooting that 2000 fps load ?sounds like a receipt for pain but funny to watch .

[Petander]

I like modern Marlin 45-70 full power. Why to download a great caliber?

400 grains @ 1500 fps is not even moose legal here in Finland.

[jmort]

I remember Ross Seyfried said shooting heavy loads in his Marlin 45-70 was worse than a painful trip to the dentist. Even if the recoil was light and enjoyable as a massage, I would consider what kind of accuracy you get at the top end. If that is the sweet-spot accuracy-wise, then it might make sense to some.
At 1000 fps a 500 grain WLN would go stem to stern on a moose.
Not sure how the hunting authorities come up with their minimum where you hunt ???

[M-Tecs]

If that is the sweet-spot accuracy-wise, then it might make sense to some.


I have 3 Marlins in 45/70 that shoot Remington 405 jacketed bullets over a max charge of IMR 4198 with unbelievable accuracy. Normally I only shoot them out of my SS scoped guide gun. It has a recoil pad on it that helps some. I will not state what kind of groups I get but I am more than willing to place money on what they can do. I have won a fair amount of bets with them. I use the Guide Gun on deer drives and the extra velocity is benefit for a running shot.

[jmort]

I don't doubt it. I have two 45-70 JMs and they are shooters.

[Hamish]

I like modern Marlin 45-70 full power. Why to download a great caliber?

400 grains @ 1500 fps is not even moose legal here in Finland.

Is true, but OP says he will mostly sit at the bench, shooting paper. Many rifles I do not mind, and even enjoy for short periods standing, but not sitting, no sir!

Happy Joul.

[Deadeye Bly]

If you wanted a 458 Magnum you should have bought one. You are certainly unaware of the penetration ability of heavy cast bullets at moderate velocity. They do the job and do it well. If you want to shoot long range get a high velocity rifle or learn to use a rangefinder and the sights properly. What you are asking for will hurt you, cause shoulder problems, detached retinas, loosen dental work, etc. I once had a Ruger #3 in 45/70 and loaded a 500 grain solid to max velocity. It made me take a step backward on ignition. I only shot one! I've got several 45/70's and shoot them all at black powder velocities.

[ghh3rd]

350 gr. bullet, cast or jacket, backed by 43 gr. of IMR-4198 for about 1875 fps
Exactly what has been the most accurate boolit (350 Ranch Dog) and load for me!

[44Blam]

Is true, but OP says he will mostly sit at the bench, shooting paper. Many rifles I do not mind, and even enjoy for short periods standing, but not sitting, no sir!

Happy Joul.

OH! A piece of information I missed! There is no way in hell you can bench rest shoot 400 grain @ 2000 fps! You have to stand/kneel/sit so your whole body absorbs the recoil. If you brace against a bench you'll be jarred all to hell!

To give perspective, my friend is about 350 lbs - you can see the recoil. This is one of the 396 cup point (actual weight is around 380 grain) under 52 grain of varget. These clock at about 1800 fps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0IE8aUUuNo

[Butler Ford]

Starting load of 3031 @ ~1800 was about all I wanted with a steel buttplate but it was pretty darn'd accurate. Definitely devastating to a telephone pole.

[MaLar]

That thing will learn you how to flinch 400 grains at 2K

[GregLaROCHE]

I like modern Marlin 45-70 full power. Why to download a great caliber?

400 grains @ 1500 fps is not even moose legal here in Finland.

Can you explain why they are not legal there for moose? Too light? Look at how many moose have been taken with 6.5x55 in Sweden and Norway. Probably Finland too.

[Spiffy7]

Been there done that...at a younger and less wise age.
Just started casting me own boolitz so back about 15 years ago I used Beartooth boolit 405 gr gas check.
Sure, it kicks but I am MAN enough:holysheep
H4198 Chronograph at 2060 fps at about 10 feet....did I mention I wuz a bit dummer back then....dumb enough to load about 50 of them up.



Next to last straw...made a bad shot on a doe about 5 years ago. She ran past me, hit a tree and knocked herself out cold....then woke back up.
I'm thinking do I really have to shoot AGAIN or can I climb down and go finish her off with me knife...yes, I shot her again...ouch.

Last straw 3 years ago.
I shot a very nice (to me) 5 year old 12 point at about 80 yards and hit him a bit low. Boolit hit sternum/bottom of rib cage and send bone fragments up into his lungs. He did not run far. I though I had just pulled a bit low but a few days later while hunting I went to change power on my scope and the scope wiggled..

I about danced a jig....why you ask?

Because I only had 3 of these crazy boolitz left....In the trash they went...

I know..I know,
I coulda pulled the boolitz out but throwing them away whole was more rewarding!

[Tatume]

So maybe stick with no more than 1500fps?

Why not go to the Hodgdon web site, pick a powder you like (I've use IMR 4895 & H4895, IMR 4198 & H4198, and IMR 3031 with good success), and load the minimum charge? Shoot them, decide if you want more or less, and go from there.

Rather than worrying about velocity, I suggest looking for good accuracy. A 400 grain bullet at 800 fps velocity or greater will kill like lightening on thin-skinned, medium game if you put it where it counts.

On the other hand, if you have access to buckets, fill them with water and shoot them with your 400 grain bullets at 2000 fps. It's fun!

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[Thumbcocker]

Suggest a good recoil pad.

[Tatume]

Suggest a good recoil pad.

Limbsaver makes a good recoil pad. Pachmayr also makes a good recoil pad.

[Stopsign32v]

Which ones of these would be a good choice for a 1895 Cowboy?

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=18

[Edward]

Been wanting one and wanting one. Had a Marlin JM 1895 CB 26” fall out of the sky for $750 and jumped. So now I will be casting and reloading for 45/70.

I’m wanting a nice thump so I can tell it from my 45 Colt Marlins so I was thinking of sending 405gr at around 2000fps. Any opinions here? Will be mainly a 100 yard shooter and won’t be shot too often.

Yup don"t ,1200 FPS for target/killing stuff is all you ever need ! That speed is my target for 700 yd in my C Sharps 1874 45/70 and it works further ,I just don"t have more range than that /Ed

[44Blam]

Which ones of these would be a good choice for a 1895 Cowboy?

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=18
I have a mold that has both the 405e and 405eg cavities and those cycle nicely in my 1895.

[murf205]

Which ones of these would be a good choice for a 1895 Cowboy?

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=18

I have a 4 cavity mold, 2 of which are 405A and 2 are 405D. Either run through my 1895 Cowboy smooth as butter. Sometimes I think the GC cavities are more accurate and sometimes the plain base boolits are the most accurate. Could be the shooter on that given day. Either way they are both very accurate and I PC both of them. I load IMR 4759 but it's out of production so the ticket now would be 5744. It's expensive where I buy powder but don't sell Accurate 2015 short. I have gotten really good accuracy from it as well. I have stopped the beating at around 1650 fps but my rifle really shoots great at about 1450-1500fps. I added a Skinner receiver and front sight to my rifle and it helped the accuracy. I just couldn't bear the thought of putting a scope on this classic rifle, but that is the best way to find the most accurate load. YMMV. Good luck

[Winger Ed.]

Probably the most fun and pleasant load I shoot in my Marlin CB is 70gr. of FF with a fairly hard cast 420gr flat point. It comes out at 1350-ish.
The first time I fired it with smokeless powder at 1650, I had to stop & think to determine which end was more dangerous than the other.

[44Blam]

I have a load for Trailboss that made those 405's like a .22... But you shoot them like an arc.

[45workhorse]

13 to 18 grains of Unique.
Not one time did I ever here the deer say, dang that boolit was only going 1300fps+-, as it hit the ground.
YMMV...

[longbow]

Hahahahaha! I'll add my two cents here too...

I'm with the "ouch!" crowd!

My first .45-70 was a converted Siamese Mauser which I knew was a strong action and could take hot loads so in my youthful ignorance I bought the Lyman 457125 500 gr. RN mould and cast up a couple hundred. I also started buying what brass i could find and it was not common back in the 70's... or not common in Vancouver anyway.

In preparation for the arrival of my custom Mauser .45-70 I loaded up 200 rounds using the max. Hornady load data for 500 gr. jacketed bullets. This was also an "economy" load using IMR4227 (IIRC) with powder charge considerably smaller than the slower powders but velocity right up there. Now there was a mistake... fast powder, max. load, heavy boolit and 200 rounds loaded... oh and plastic butt plate!

Well, I went to the range with the gunsmith that built the gun and he wanted the first shot. One shot is all he took and then said "Here you shoot it!" Recoil was brutal! It shot well but recoil was brutal! I don't recall if I shot all the loaded rounds that day but my shoulder was black and blue. I subsequently bought a Pachmayr triple magnum recoil pad and had it installed. That tamed recoil some but downloading was the answer to more pleasant shooting. Even Marlin load data is more than most people need to get most jobs done with .45-70 in my opinion. BP or BP equivalent loads work just fine and are quite pleasant to shoot.

I bought a Lyman 457124 mould that cast a 385 gr. RN boolit that the Siamese Mauser liked and so did the 1895 Marlin I bought later. Loads were kept within the Marlin data for both guns and with the lighter boolit were not bad to shoot.

If you want to try 405 gr. at 2000 FPS, as long as the load is within pressure limits, go for it! You may enjoy the experience but as mentioned, don't load too many up until you try it.

Like I said, just my two cents worth.

Longbow

Sorry, the "Hahaha" was not meant to be sarcastic... I was remembering my first experience shooting my .45-70 is all and it makes me laugh today.

[GregLaROCHE]

Think about this.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?275002-gun-blew-up

[Tatume]

Think about this.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?275002-gun-blew-up

Why? Your link goes to a discussion of a double charge accident. We're not discussing double charges of pistol powders. We're talking about documented loads with rifle powders. Most of the Hodgdon loads are compressed, and so a double charge can't be loaded.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[Stopsign32v]

Think about this.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?275002-gun-blew-up

Because me loading within SAAMI specs will equal to the gun blowing up in half and send me to the ER...

What a dumb post Greg

[GregLaROCHE]

Is 2000 f/s with 405grns in SAMI specs? I would like to know. My point in posting the link was to show that these guns can blow up. Maybe he did double charge it. It doesn’t say for sure. If he had put 50% more in would it have blown up? What about 25% more or 15%. When you go past the SAMI specs, you can’t be sure what will happen.

[Stopsign32v]

Is 2000 f/s with 405grns in SAMI specs? I would like to know.

Yes, yes it is

So, what was the point of posting what you did?

[GregLaROCHE]

In Hogdon’s specs you would be over 40,000 CUP. Are Marlin lever guns rated to take that much? I don’t know. Does someone know where to find that spec?

[M-Tecs]

The 45/70 SAAMI standard is 28,000 PSI/CUP. Normally CUP and PSI are different however at 28,000 they are the same. The 45/70 SAAMI was established to be safe with ALL the weak design 45/70's from start. Any 45/70 load over what is referred to as Trapdoors loads are over SAAMI spec, however, normally three categories for 45/70 are used. Trapdoor, lever gun and Ruger #1/bolt gun.


The 2,000 FPS with a 405 is within the normal lever gun recommended loads.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

" There are many opinions regarding prudent pressure limits for the 45-70 lever-gun. They range from those advocating 28,000-cup/28,000-psi load levels, to those advocating 42,000-cup/45,000-psi load levels. It is our view that given the mechanical characteristics of the modern 45-70 lever-gun, and the enormous amount of power that can be achieved within modest chamber pressure levels, the prudent course leads to a point somewhere in between. We have chosen to impose a maximum average chamber pressure limit for our 45-70 Hammerhead Ammo of 33,000-cup/35,000-psi. It is often claimed that the Marlin 1895 is completely safe with load levels up to 43,000-PSI, and that the modern Winchester 1886 is safe to 50,000-psi. This analysis is based on the strength of the respective lockups. We do not take exception with these claims. "

[GregLaROCHE]

Hogdon’s specs say you can do it, so if it does blow up and you can prove you followed their guidelines, I guess you can sue them. Other powder manufacturers say only in Ruger and Mauser type actions.

I’ve been shooting and reloading one for over thirty years. A lot changes in that time. Are the new guns built the same as thirty years ago? Maybe they are stronger today.

I still would like to know what CUP exactly Marlin says the 1895 is rated for. The 450 may not be exactly the same.

[screwcutter]

The 1895 Marlin is said to be able to take 40,000 cup because the 444 Marlin operates at this level, also the 450 Marlin goes to 43,500psi. This in my humble opinion is apples vs oranges. The 444 and 1895 use deep square threads, the 45/70 case is .030” larger than the 444 case, that cuts into the safety margin of an action that was made for the 30/30. The 1895M has a shallower V thread and was not modified to feed the large rim of the 45/70. I have shot some heavy loads out of my 1895. A gunsmith buddy show me a couple of hot rodded 1895s, both had bulged chambers, one had a crack on the receiver, I quickly saw the error in my ways. My shoulder thanks me.

[Stopsign32v]

I don't think people should post such things if there is a lot of personal "I don't know" involved.

A Marlin 1895 sending a 2,000fps 45/70 is perfectly safe and within it's limits.

[longbow]

I am a little surprised at all the speculation in this thread.

A fairly quick internet search turns up a great deal of data for the 1895 Marlin and the various load levels for .45-70 depending on the type of gun.

As stated, SAAMI spec is for 28,000 CUP which is for older style BP cartridge guns like trap door Springfields. The Marlin and Winchester 1886 modern made lever guns are in the mid range for max. pressure at 40,000 CUP.

The Hodgdon site shows several loads for 400 gr. bullets that run at or very close to 2000 FPS at no more than 40,000 CUP so certainly doable at safe pressure.

Recoil will likely be the limiting factor not... getting a 400 gr. boolit to 2000 FPS.

I developed a bad flinch shooting my first heavy loaded .45-70 ammunition! To each his own... if you want that performance level you can certainly achieve it safely.

I should note that even after I toned loads down some they were running high in the Marlin pressure range but were quite accurate in the old microgroove barrel. Not sure if Marlin even makes microgroove barrels anymore. I liked mine and like my microgroove 1894.

The .45-70 is an excellent round and will provide shooting pleasure from mild to wild in lever action guns and even wilder in bolt action or single shot. It will get the job done!

Longbow

[44Blam]

I ran some 405s around 2000 fps in a Marlin 1895, but it was effing painful... They were under a slightly compressed varget load and near Max listed loads in the Lee modern reloading book.

Edit: the heaviest loads I shot were 55 grain of varget and the Lee modern reloading lists that as 1845 fps... Might be 2000 in the 24" barrel, though...
However, I am sending 380 grn boolits at 1800 fps and it is a lot less recoil.

[Tazman1602]

MILLIONS of 2,000 Lb. Buffalo were hunted almost to extinction with a 500 grain bullet in front of 70 grains black powder....Around 1100 FPS.........do you need more than that?

405 grain @2000FPS.......OOOOOUUUUUCCCCCHHHHHHH!!!!

Art

[GregLaROCHE]

OKAY, let’s end this. I was wrong. I have no problem admitting it. However, it is not in SAMI specs, but there are no specs other than the for the BP Trapdoor rifles. With a lot of experimenting, it seems to be evident that the Marlins can take those pressures.

I have learned a lot from this forum. When I say “I don’t know” it’s a way of saying show me or teach me. I have learned and it makes me happy because, when the weather warms up, I will probably try some.

Have a happy new year and keep enjoying this wonderful rifle.

[jaydub in wi]

When I first got my 1895, I bought 100 405 grain cast flat points. I loaded these up with 50 grains of H4198. Recoil is brutal. Accuracy was very good. My FIL gave me a box of 400 grain Speers, and I loaded them with H4198 again. This time, I used 44 grains. I would guess it clocks around 1700 fps. Recoil is stiff, but it's much more managable. Accuracy is still quite good. I would try loads at this level first before going higher.

[mehavey]

Hodgdon says you can do it.
Go for it

But in so doing . .
I absolutely do mean horrendous hurt, harm, anguish and turmoil by my post.
:kidding::bigsmyl2::veryconfu

[screwcutter]

Here’s a chicken little story. Take an action designed for the 30/30 with a head diameter of .422” operating at 38,000 cup, modify it to take a cartridge .050” larger and another 6,000 cup then modify again for another .030” larger cartridge and say it is safe for 40,000 cup.

“””
Longbow,
The Marlin and Winchester 1886 modern made lever guns are in the mid range for max. pressure at 40,000 CUP.

Stopsign32v
A Marlin 1895 sending a 2,000fps 45/70 is perfectly safe and within it's limits.
“””

And the question nobody asks: What do Marlin and Winchester say about this?
I bet they would say 28,000 cup.

[M-Tecs]

I am surprised that Winchester and Marlin even allow handloads, however, they are not going to recommend anything that is not SAAMI period.

S&W does not allow handloads unless "ALWAYS USE THE CORRECT AMMUNITION FOR YOUR PARTICULAR FIREARM as indicated by the marking on the barrel. Never use non-standard, reloaded, or “handloaded” ammunition which has not been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing" Have you ever sent a cartridge out for pressure testing???? https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/owners-manuals/S%26W_Revolver_Manual_080118_416560000_nc.pdf

The 45 Colt in the 460 S&W is a good example of the reality of SAAMI confusion. The SAAMI max for the 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI yet the 460 S&W max pressure is 65,000 psi. Per S&W a 45 Colt with a pressure of 14,001 psi is unsafe yet a 460 S&W in the same gun is 100% safe at 65,000 psi???????

Per Winchester and Marlin.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/content/dam/winchester-repeating-arms/support/owners-manuals/2016/14-WRA-324_1886_OM_WEB.pdf

The barrel and action of this rifle have been made with substantial safety margins over the pressures developed by established American loads. However, we assume no responsibility for incidents which occur through the use of cartridges of nonstandard dimension or those developing pressures in excess of SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute) established standards

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/sites/default/files/Marlin_308-336-338-444-1894-1895_Manual_F407320_Rev_2016-01.pdf

Firearms are designed, manufactured and proof-tested to standards based on factory-loaded ammunition. Handloaded or reloaded ammunition that deviates, either intentionally or accidentally, from load or component recommendations can be very dangerous.
Reloaders must observe all possible safety precautions and practices related to the proper handling of explosives. Whether you're a seasoned reloader or just starting out, you should study the subject, watch reloading demonstrations and talk to experienced reloaders.

I wonder why almost all the major reload manuals separate the 45/70 into Trapdoor, lever action and strong action groups since (per some) anything above the 28,000 SAAMI established for the Trapdoor is unsafe in any firearm????????????. The do the same for the various strength 45 Colts. I guess their recommendation are no good since they recommend non-SAAMI loads for guns that are stronger than an original 1873 Colt peacemaker.

[longbow]

screwcutter:

From what I have read the 1895 was in fact designed for larger cartridges than .30-30. From American Rifleman:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/7/10/a-look-back-at-the-marlin-model-1895/

Albeit in .45-70 and .45-90 it was for BP loading but then so was the Winchester 1886 but both are strong actions and capable of handling higher pressures.

I don't disagree that Marlin and Winchester may say these guns are rated for 28,000 CUP as their lawyers likely wouldn't let then say anything else but when powder companies and reloading manuals list load data for these guns they do specify which gun is in which pressure category and list safe loads for them. If not safe their lawyers would not let them do that.

So, I have to think that the three common designations and pressure categories for .45-70 are safe and sane as far as to what the gun will handle. My opinion anyway.

I know my old 70's Marlin 1895 put up with top end Marlin pressure loads from my old Hornady reloading book of same era and I'll not that some load data in that book seemed somewhat hot and I do not see it repeated in my newer reloadng books. I would not even think of trying a Siamese Mauser/Ruger #1 pressure rated load in a Marlin but it certainly was fed a lot of top end Marlin pressure loads. Yes, I was dumb and put up with a lot unnecessary recoil.

All that matters for this thread though is the OP's question ~ "Just got a 45/70. Any recommendations for 2000fps?"

Yes, it is safe to load a 405 gr. boolit to 2000 FPS according to published reloading data.

For me the recoil is the limiting factor not the capability of the gun.

Longbow

[screwcutter]

I’m just trying to be a nice guy, everyone else warned about recoil. I was giving the nuts and bolts of the mechanical pit falls. I have loaded higher than SAMMI, but I did this before the internet thing. Pease read on to para 7 in the NRA article, the 1972 version of the 1895 was based on 336 family receiver. I bought my first 1895 to make a 45/90, afterwards I found out that it wasn’t the same as the original 1895. Don’t anyone get me wrong, I’m not slamming the Marlin 1895 because I have 2 of the 1972 versions and I love them.

[Tazman1602]

It goes back to not want one needs but what one wants. Sometimes need nas nothing to do with it.
Its hard for some people to understand that.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.


DOH! No offense intended, I was just pokin' the bear! I have shot my Marlins to those speeds, it's just where I hunt it's pretty rare we get any shots over 200 yards and that is a stretch!

Art

[Echo]

Maybe a collar-button...

[Reverend Al]

I have one of the old Browning B78 / 1885 single shots in .45-70 and it shoots tight little clover leafs at 100 yards with 300 grain Hornady or Sierra JHP's with a lightly compressed case completely FULL of IMR3031. Pokes them out at about 2,000 fps and although they kill moose like the Hammer of Thor they are absolutely unpleasant to shoot too! When I was working up the load for this rifle the groups just kept getting smaller and smaller until I couldn't get any more powder into the case and seat the bullet just off the lands, I just flat ran out of room in the case. It just so happened that the most accurate load that it really liked was at the very top of the powder range and the excessive recoil it generates just came along for the ride ...

[Bigslug]

That fast, you'll prrroooooobably want a gas check.

I have never heard a discouraging word about the RCBS 405 FNGC, and it shoots wonderfully in everything I've fired it through. My pop worked up a load with it for his shorter barrel 1895 up around 1900 fps that holds roughly 1MOA.

If you are mainly after blunt force trauma and aren't sweating trajectory, the NOE has a couple options that take the meplat diameter to .34". We call them "root beer barrels", and at north of 1600 fps, they are the most destructive thing I've ever seen hit a gallon milk jug. The displacement from those hits is so forceful, it clears the loose sand from the ground to about a 1 foot radius from where the jug was standing.

YMMV, but 1600 fps seems to be where the round starts getting uncomfortable in a lot of guns, and it's worth remembering 1200-1400 fps was considered perfectly fine for bison.

[longbow]

screwcutter:

Right you are! My apologies. The "new" 1895 has a different beginning than the original 1895. I learned something new which is good! I should read my examples more thoroughly before posting and commenting.

Having said that after re-looking at info, I find the 336 action was chambered in 444 Marlin before being chambered in .45-70 (I knew that) and was found safe at 444 Marlin pressure of 42,000 PSI (SAAMI spec) and later in .450 Marlin at 43,500 PSI (SAAMI spec) so the Marlin .45-70 range of pressure at 40,000 PSI is perfectly safe and sane.

I'm not trying to be a smart alec or start an argument here, just pointing out that the same action is chambered in two other cartridges that develop as much or more pressure and bolt thrust as the "Marlin .45-70" range and in the case of .450 Marlin the cartridge has even larger diameter head than .45-70. These cartridges must have been tested and proofed in the action and of course the 444 has been in production since the mid 60's with no problems I've read about. If there was any question as to the safety of those two rounds with SAAMI spec pressure rating then Marlin's lawyers would not allow the guns to be sold. In fact, if there was the slightest possibility of failure using SAAMI spec ammunition the guns would be recalled.

My suspicion on these .45-70 blow ups we see are that either a double charge was thrown or the wrong powder was used. I've as yet to see a posted blow up of a 444 Marlin or .450 Marlin using any ammunition and specifically factory ammunition loaded to SAAMI spec. Seems odd that only .45-70's fail. Well, seems odd to me anyway but I'm a pretty simple old guy.

I'll reference 44MAG#!'s tag line here. I'm not trying to offend anyone or start an argument. The OP asked a pretty straight forward question about loads to produce 2000 FPS using a 405 gr. boolit and that seems quite doable within recommended pressure limits for a Marlin 1895, and certainly is within pressure limits for .450 Marlin in the same action so other than excess recoil, which may not bother the OP as much as it does me, he is not asking to do anything unsafe.

Longbow

[modified5]

Not 45-70 but I have shot my 1895 Marlin guide gun in .450 Marlin with 400 gr jacketed at 2000fps.
I loaded 5, shot 4 and decided that the last one didn’t need to be fired.
I won’t be doing that again.:holysheep
And I don’t consider myself recoil sensitive.

I do have a 45-70 barrel for my Contender handgun and my favorite load through that so far is 70 grains of black substitute behind a Lee 405 grain rnfp. It is a pleasure to shoot and accurate.

[Stopsign32v]

If you are mainly after blunt force trauma and aren't sweating trajectory, the NOE has a couple options that take the meplat diameter to .34". We call them "root beer barrels", and at north of 1600 fps, they are the most destructive thing I've ever seen hit a gallon milk jug. The displacement from those hits is so forceful, it clears the loose sand from the ground to about a 1 foot radius from where the jug was standing.


Are you referring to these? http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_550

[dlbarr]

Are you referring to these? http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_550

I think this is what's being referenced: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_139

[Stopsign32v]

I think this is what's being referenced: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_139

Much better

I'll grab one of those molds

[Stephen Cohen]

For a 100 yard gun why 2000fps that is going to make you black and blue. Try 1300 to 1500 you will shoot way more and enjoy it. If you simply must do 2000fps post video we want to share your pain LOL. Which ever way you go enjoy that Marlin. Regards Stephen

[Tatume]

Mountains from mole hills. Some of my guns recoil more than my Marlin with 400 grain bullets at 2000 fps. I still enjoy shooting them. What's the big deal?

[jmort]

No big deal. Just the common, majority opinion that hot/heavy loads in the Marlin 45-70 are uncomfortable. No big deal. Just subjective experience. That you have other guns that have more recoil than the 45-70 is meaningless. There is recoil, and the design and recoil absortion of a firearm. Recoil pads, stocks, geometry all play into this.
It is no big deal.
Rock on and enjoy what you like.

[jmort]

There, I fixed it.

[Bigslug]

Are you referring to these? http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_550

Nope. Something a little closer to these, though the catalog has changed somewhat: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_145&osCsid=i2r1nqebbl54mm8j8gad6no0g5

[GregLaROCHE]

Nope. Something a little closer to these, though the catalog has changed somewhat: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_145&osCsid=i2r1nqebbl54mm8j8gad6no0g5

Just looking at all those molds makes me drool.

[pmer]

I have one of the old Browning B78 / 1885 single shots in .45-70 and it shoots tight little clover leafs at 100 yards with 300 grain Hornady or Sierra JHP's with a lightly compressed case completely FULL of IMR3031. Pokes them out at about 2,000 fps and although they kill moose like the Hammer of Thor they are absolutely unpleasant to shoot too! When I was working up the load for this rifle the groups just kept getting smaller and smaller until I couldn't get any more powder into the case and seat the bullet just off the lands, I just flat ran out of room in the case. It just so happened that the most accurate load that it really liked was at the very top of the powder range and the excessive recoil it generates just came along for the ride ...

Medium speed rifle powders like this are the way to go in the Marlin. Stay away from fast rifle powders like 4198 & re 7. They will get you there as far as velocity but recoil will be more like a punch. 3031 & 4895 powders really make the 45-70 shine. Reverend Al has it, I learned it from Goodsteel. Use the data out of Marlin section of the manuals for the big stick medium speed rifle powders and don't look back. 50.0 grains of 3031 is easier to shoot and higher in velocity than 22/2400 with a 405 grain boolit. I won't put 2400 in a 45-70 case again.

[44Blam]

Medium speed rifle powders like this are the way to go in the Marlin. Stay away from fast rifle powders like 4198 & re 7. They will get you there as far as velocity but recoil will be more like a punch. 3031 & 4895 powders really make the 45-70 shine. Reverend Al has it, I learned it from Goodsteel. Use the data out of Marlin section of the manuals for the big stick medium speed rifle powders and don't look back. 50.0 grains of 3031 is easier to shoot and higher in velocity than 22/2400 with a 405 grain boolit. I won't put 2400 in a 45-70 case again.

This is true. I like Varget - even the heavy recoil loads are more of a push than a punch. But heavier loads will still rattle the holy hell out of you. The heavier 4198 loads have a sharper crack to them.

[longbow]

What 44blam said... fast powders can produce a pretty sharp jab like recoil where slower powders like 4320 produce more of a push. It makes quite a difference in felt recoil!

I think I mentioned that I started out with a rather hefty load of IMR4227 per Hornady loading manual and it was a brutal load to shoot. I went to IMR4320 which took considerably more powder for same velocity but the recoil went from sharp unpleasant jab to a solid push

So, if it is the higher velocities you are after use the slower end powders and the recoil will not be so punishing.

Longbow

[El Bango]

You'll get a thump all right....

[ghh3rd]

A Decelerator recoil pad on the rifle, and this on your shoulder should help ;-)

233460

[pls1911]

Simply stated, don't waste your time, money, shoulder or risk detached retinas... no joke. I'm serious.
I've cast loaded, and shot 45/70 for years in Marlins, Rugers, Sharps and Remingtons.
I can promise you 1600-1700 from any platform is more than sufficient to kill anything in North America. For that matter, 400 grains at 1400 will do as well, easily and accurately. Personally, I've evolved to prefer 350 grains at 1600. It will penetrate through nearly anything from any angle.
Don't beat up your body and your equipment unnecessarily.
You will shoot more and shoot better when it's enjoyable.
There's no machismo in silliness.

[dlbarr]

screwcutter:

Right you are! My apologies. The "new" 1895 has a different beginning than the original 1895. I learned something new which is good! I should read my examples more thoroughly before posting and commenting. ......


Longbow

Please define "new" 1895....to what years of mfr are you referring?

[Tatume]

Post 1970s. Marlin used the 1895 model name in the late 1890s for a different design.

[Newtire]

Been wanting one and wanting one. Had a Marlin JM 1895 CB 26” fall out of the sky for $750 and jumped. So now I will be casting and reloading for 45/70.

I’m wanting a nice thump so I can tell it from my 45 Colt Marlins so I was thinking of sending 405gr at around 2000fps. Any opinions here? Will be mainly a 100 yard shooter and won’t be shot too often.I shot a few of those out of a .458 Win. for a guy with his arm in a sling. Velocity was somewhere in the 2100 fps area. It's the reason his arm was in a sling he told me. After I shot a few, I was inclined to believe him.

[longbow]

dlbarr:

Screwcutter corrected me in that the original Marlin 1895 was a square bolt gun where the "new" 1895 is based on the 336 action with round bolt. The 444 marlin came first in the 336 action then .45-70.

I had thought the "new" 1895 was same pattern as original though possibly made of higher grade materials. Not so.

The original 1895 production was ended in about 1915 and "new" 1895 production based on 336 action was in the early 1970's.

Here's a bit of the history by Chuck Hawks:

https://www.chuckhawks.com/marlin_336_444_1895.htm

Longbow

[dlbarr]

Thanks Longbow. Appreciate the clarification.

[Bfr taday]

I stop were elmer Keith stoped was a good place to stop on the 45-70 look up elmer Keith pumpkin rolling. I will even give you some help http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/

[Traffer]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I recently got a 45/70 Handi rifle. It came with 40 rounds loaded with 405's. I am going to pull them and reload with Varget (cuz that's what I got). I would like to load them to about 1100 fps to 1200 fps or even slower. Will Varget even burn with a light load like that? Will a tighter crimp help get a complete burn?

[44Blam]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I recently got a 45/70 Handi rifle. It came with 40 rounds loaded with 405's. I am going to pull them and reload with Varget (cuz that's what I got). I would like to load them to about 1100 fps to 1200 fps or even slower. Will Varget even burn with a light load like that? Will a tighter crimp help get a complete burn?
It'll work. I shoot PB 405s with varget at about those velocities and they shoot fine. Might be a little dirtier, but I haven't noticed unburned powder in those loads.

[Norske]

I'd recommend wearing a life jacket to absorb recoil with a 400gr bullet @ 2000fps. A cheap way to try is to buy a box of Buffalo Bore ammo. My 1895 kicks about like a 12 gauge slug gun with those. After the second shot, you'll be wishing the rifle weighted more. They are comfortable in an acquaintance's Sharps replica.

When I was buying reloading supplies for my soon-to-order 45-70 I found myself in line with a guy who was into cast bullet cartridge shooting. We discussed the different Marlin models, and he didn't recommend the cowboy model for the hunter or casual shooter. His explanation was the straight grip butt stock made the shooter pull the butt into his shoulder with the little finger in the lever loop. He said after a few shots his finger got tender, he didn't pull the rifle tight enough against his shoulder, and it got a "running start" in recoil. I followed his advice and ordered a standard rifle.

[rockrat]

I guess it all boils down to: Yep, you can get a 405 up to 2000 fps, but the question is, do you have a level one, two or three shoulder? If you really want 2000 fps, the you might think about a 300gr boolit. I think you will find that 1600 fps is all you will want. You want to quit shooting thinking "that was fun" instead of "where are the pain killers".

Whats the saying "Good choices come from experience, experience comes from bad choices"??? Have fun with your rifle.

[Sig556r]

Ouch ouch ouch

E=1/2mv^2=1/2*(405/7000/32.2)*(2000)^2 = 3,593.6 ft-lbs!
Ouch indeed

[murf205]

Been wanting one and wanting one. Had a Marlin JM 1895 CB 26” fall out of the sky for $750 and jumped. So now I will be casting and reloading for 45/70.

I’m wanting a nice thump so I can tell it from my 45 Colt Marlins so I was thinking of sending 405gr at around 2000fps. Any opinions here? Will be mainly a 100 yard shooter and won’t be shot too often.

Remember, with that 26" barrel, you wont have to load ammo as hot as a depot stove to get more velocity. My Marlin CB 26" gets 100fps more than Lyman got with a 24" test barrel and I'm sure yours will too.

[waksupi]

If you start shooting at 2000 fps, don't be surprised when the magazine tube starts backing out of the receiver.

[bruce drake]

Recoil will not be your friend with that desired velocity. Remington's express load for that bullet weight is rated for 1330fps. TRy to match that first to check your accuracy. You may find you don't need the other 700fps.

[dlbarr]

I find it enlightening that the OP hasnt posted since December 31, 2018. That is 21 posts ago. People are still giving him advice. It would seem to me he has gotten the picture or he now doesnt care.


He may no longer need anyone's input on the topic, but apparently enough of us are still enjoying the conversation. 8-)

[44Blam]

I find it enlightening that the OP hasnt posted since December 31, 2018. That is 21 posts ago. People are still giving him advice. It would seem to me he has gotten the picture or he now doesnt care.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

I sent OP a few boolits, was hoping for a range report and the cost of postage...
EDIT: Just got the $10! Thanks!

[Traffer]

My take on the OP not posting more is that he is probably discouraged by the amount of people telling him that it is a pretty stout load. Some people are more sensitive and get embarrassed or get hurt when they may do a faux pas. (Which is what it kind of seems that the OP was) I think we should give him some time to lick his wounds. With all due respect to him and all.

[M-Tecs]

Some people are more sensitive and get embarrassed or get hurt when they may do a faux pas. (Which is what it kind of seems that the OP was) I think we should give him some time to lick his wounds. With all due respect to him and all.

How in the Sam Hill is simply asking for a recommendation on a specific SAFE load for the stated parameters a faux pas??????? Yes it's going to kick. If it is more than the OP wants he simply won't load anymore. The faux pas's came from people that had opinions but lacked any facts. The OP has zero wounds to lick...…………………………...unlike some others.

[Traffer]

How in the Sam Hill is simply asking for a recommendation on a specific SAFE load for the stated parameters a faux pas??????? Yes it's going to kick. If it is more than the OP wants he simply won't load anymore. The faux pas's came from people that had opinions but lacked any facts. The OP has zero wounds to lick...…………………………...unlike some others.

I should have worded it differently. I think that some of the feed back may have made the op feel like it was a faux pas. I meant it to imply that maybe we should be a bit more sensitive to a question like that instead of piling on. Obviously I am some form of fool for saying so.

[44Blam]

I sent OP a few boolits, was hoping for a range report and the cost of postage...
EDIT: Just got the $10! Thanks!

OP sent me $10 for the postage and it was only $6. That's a nice little surprise. Hopefully, we get a range report. :)