bore polishing system

[Kragman71]

Hello,
MidwayUSA is offering a bore polishing system endorsed by Tubbs.It consists of 5 specially treated bullets to be fired in sequence to polish the bore.
Does this really work? The article is unclear as to how many bullets are involved;maybe only 5.
Thanks,
Frank

[snowwolfe]

First, why does your bore need polishing? Does it foul badly? From what I read the jury is still out on fire lapping a barrel. I would avoid it unless it is a last ditch effort to restore accuracy.

[Buckshot]

Hello,
MidwayUSA is offering a bore polishing system endorsed by Tubbs.It consists of 5 specially treated bullets to be fired in sequence to polish the bore.
Does this really work? The article is unclear as to how many bullets are involved;maybe only 5.
Thanks,
Frank

.........Hello Frank, and I'm happy to welcome you to the board. I take it you like Krags? I'm a perceptive fellow. I think the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it". If the barrel IS leading, then it's time to take a look at a few other things first. If it's not accurate but doesn't lead then there are some other things to look at.

On the other hand, a person's personal feelings about his firearm's ability actually has a large part to play in how well they perform together. If it is something that you think will make an improvement, then it may be worthwhile.

...............Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

Hi..anybody that likes Krag rifles is a friend of mine! I dote on them. Well back to the subject at hand.

There is a difference between polishing a barrel and laping a barrel. When a barrel is laped material is removed and dimensions are changed. When a barrel is polished dimensions are not changed.

I an very wary about lapping a barrel. Often times, it does more hard than good. However polishing a barrel won't do it any harm.

I know nothing about the Tubbs system, but I have polished many sixgun barrels. I fired 200 rounds of jacked bullets as fast as i can load and fire and then clean the barrel while it is still hot. (wear gloves). I then polish the barrel with Semi-Chrome or Flitz metal polish on tight fitting patches.

I can tell you that on my sixguns that have received this treatment will cease to give any leading problems and be very, very easy to clean.

I did this to a very accurate Smith K-38 that leaded worse than any sixgun I have evere seen. I would have traded it off, if it wasn' so darn accurate before the lead built up in the barrel. After the aforementioned polish the leading ceased and the accuracy was still there. That was 17 years ago and the pistol still holds a place of honor among my sixguns.

Like I said, I don't know squat about the Midway/Tubbs system, but it bears a careful look to see if it offers anything to us cast bullet rifle shooters.

[waksupi]

I generally hand lap ML barrels when I'm building them. The only one I've fire lapped, is a Douglas, that I used the LBT lap on. The barrel was new, and I only had about a hundred yellow bullets to shoot through it. It didn't smooth things out enough for cast. So, I shot about ten low velocity loads with the LBT, cleaned, and shot again. It was better, but not great. I shot a total of 18-19 shots through it, cleaning between shots. As I was cleaning, the patch would squeek going through the bore, until it was near the muzzle, and each shot made it squeak a bit farther down the bore. I lapped until it squeeked all the way out the muzzle, and the accuracy is now very good.
If you are going to lap, I would suggest using the LBT or similar compound, as five bullets may not do the job. I'm assuming you are wanting to lap a new barrel, as an older one that has had a lot of shooting, shouldn't need it.

[Bman]

The Tubb's system from Midway uses 5 different grits. In .22lr you get 20 of each grist 100 rds total. Don't remember how many centerfire bullets come with the kit. If I understand right you shoot several of each grit clean then finer grit repeat.

[Kragman71]

Hello,
I'm not a new member.About a year ago, I was hospitalized for a nerve disorder,for 3 months.Bedridden,wheelchair,walker and cane.Now,I'm up and about,somewhat.Just now getting back to various websites.
I'm going to concentrate on cast bullets,even more then before.I thought that polishing the bore would be a good thing because cast bullets,for me,seem to be less tolerant of a rough bore then jacketed.
I have an '03A3 that shoots pretty good and a 1917 Enfield that was not cleaned well after shooting old ammo.It shoots jacketed pretty good but cast not at all.I was thinking of doing both of them.
After your responses,I'll leave the Springfield as is,but may still do the Enfield.Thanks for your input,I thought polishing was always a good idea.My only concern was the worth of the Midway/Tubb system.
Frank

[snowwolfe]

I generally hand lap ML barrels when I'm building them. The only one I've fire lapped, is a Douglas, that I used the LBT lap on. The barrel was new, and I only had about a hundred yellow bullets to shoot through it. It didn't smooth things out enough for cast. So, I shot about ten low velocity loads with the LBT, cleaned, and shot again. It was better, but not great. I shot a total of 18-19 shots through it, cleaning between shots. As I was cleaning, the patch would squeek going through the bore, until it was near the muzzle, and each shot made it squeak a bit farther down the bore. I lapped until it squeeked all the way out the muzzle, and the accuracy is now very good.
If you are going to lap, I would suggest using the LBT or similar compound, as five bullets may not do the job. I'm assuming you are wanting to lap a new barrel, as an older one that has had a lot of shooting, shouldn't need it.

Could you go into a little more detail about how you polish them? I am interested in this. Thanks

[Bass Ackward]

Hello,
MidwayUSA is offering a bore polishing system endorsed by Tubbs.It consists of 5 specially treated bullets to be fired in sequence to polish the bore.
Does this really work? The article is unclear as to how many bullets are involved;maybe only 5.
Thanks,
Frank


Frank,

Don't waste your money if you just want to polish. The finest bore polishing system in the world is cast bullets. The more antimony and less tin you add, the faster the effect. Linotype is great for this purpose. Harder bullets work faster than soft.

[shooter2]

I bought a '98 Krag about a year ago and before shooting it I spent three days cleaning it. First using a good copper remover (I used Butch's Bore Shine) I swabbed and brushed over and over. Leaving the bore wet overnight . Then going at it again the next day. Maybe an hour and a half total time involved. I then short stroked the bore with a tight patch and JB Bore Paste for about a hundred strokes. Ten to twenty strokes then clean and repeat. Finally, cleaned it again. Then patches came out clean, not blue. The bore has slight pitting, but shoots cast very well and does not lead. So, I guess that's the long way of saying before you go to a process of lapping, make sure it's clean. Often that's as far as you need to go. That said, if you really need to lap a barrel, it is hard to beat the kits that Veral sells. Not familiar with the Midway kit so I cannot comment there. FWIW...

[versifier]

I know that I get into a lot of trouble sometimes trying to be logical, but, as I understand it, the polishing process affects mostly the bore - the tops of the lands, not the grooves. This seems to be a good idea generally as after rifling, the bore often still bears the perpendicular tooling marks from drilling, especially so if the reaming has been poorly or incompletely done, while the force of the button or cutter either smoothes the grooves in the first case or produces parellel tooling marks in the second. In the hundreds of thousands of patches I've run through barrels, it seems to me that most of the fouling builds up in the grooves. Now, often you can SEE leading or copper fouling on the lands as you look down with a good light at the other end, but it seems that after a thorough cleaning with one or more specialized solvents, the last of the patches are removing what's left in the grooves. Now, logically, I infer from this, rightly or wrongly, that if the polishing really doesn't do much to the grooves, then what we see or don't see of lead/copper buildup isn't as much of a factor as those who like to sell such gadgets would have us believe. This line of thought is further reinforced by the comments that cast bullets do the best job of "polishing". As good cast slugs are generally oversized, this seems to point to the observation that they are much more likely to be doing a better job of smoothing out the bottom of the grooves than the undersized jacketed variety, and therefor are more likely to really do something that affects the propensity of a barrel to build up any kind of fouling. The idea of "hot cleaning" makes even more sense seen in this light.
I come down to the conclusion that what's for sale is likely to be gimmicky for anyone but a benchrest shooter, and of marginal utility even to them because of the more careful and exacting tolerences to which their barrels are machined. Does this make sense?

[StarMetal]

Polishing does polish everything in the barrel. Haven't you heard of lapping or polishing out the constriction in a revolver barrel where it screws into the frame. At this point in alot of instances the frame crushes in the barrel some and results in a tight spot in the barrel at that point. When you slug a barrel you're mesuring the groove to groove diameter and I can gaurantee you that polishing/lapping does indeed enlarge the groove bottoms.

Joe

[versifier]

I didn't think the two terms were synonomous. I know about lapping revolvers, and have seen before & afters. That involves removing some metal, sometimes a lot if the thread diameter is oversize. I didn't think there'd be a measurable difference in the diameter after polishing. Tell me more.

[scrapcan]

There was a small video on Lilja Barrel's website. It was a hawkeye borescope video of a new factory remington 700 barrel the other is a hand lapped Lilja barrel.

you can see it at http://www.riflebarrels.com/ clink on the link to barrel comparison at the top. It is good for people to see what we get for our money.

Pretty interesting. It is no wonder some of us have leading problems.

I went to a long range shooting clinic put on by a long range dynamite shoot champion about a year ago. He uses off the rack rifles for long range work, 2500+yds. His normal treatment for all rifles is to hand polish using JB non-embedding bore cleaner and a tight fitting patch. He said that he uses one 2 oz can for each rifle. It seemed like alot of work, but the proof is in the pudding (or the trophies that he has and I do not have). It was interesting that he felt most off the rack rifles did not need additional work (bedding, free float, etc..) except for the bore polishing and working up an accurate load. In fact he referenced several articles written to address remington's pressure point that is located at the forend tip. The testing was done on rifle s that had varying amounts of pressure relieved compared to the standard pressure point and with custom guns using the same methodology.

just thought I would pass on the above info.

[Kragman71]

Hello,again
I'm getting overloaded with information,here.
I already have a bore lapping kit;a Wheeler from Midway.It did a great job on my Krag,which always needed a lot of cleaning,and went sour after 30 years of abuse by me.In one year it went from 1 inch groups to 3 inch plus groups.After the fire lapping it went back to 1 1/2 inch-2 inch groups.
This polishing system may be the same as what I already have.The Wheeler sstarts with 220 grit and finishes with 600 grit.I think that the Tubbs system should have finer grit then that;but I don't know.
Frank

[versifier]

Manleyjt, about forend pressure points on the barrel, what was the opinion of the guy that ran the clinic? You said "most off the rack rifles"... Did he like the idea or did he, like me prefer to float the barrels on his Remingtons? What did the testing reveal? Do you have the list of reference articles to which he referred? I'm very interested as I have done a lot of experimenting along similar lines and have not found a lot written about it.

[waksupi]

Free floating depends on the barrel. When a rifle leaves the shop up here, it is guaranteed at sub MOA. Some need floated, some don't. And you never know until it has been test fired.

[scrapcan]

Versifier,

The clinician was in full agreement with Remington's positon on factory pressure points. It was his opinion, and backed by third party research, that the pressure point moves the harmonics closer to the end of the barrel and made it easier to find the correct harmonic to get clean exit at point of no slope on harmonic curve. with a free floated barrel you may have to actually fit 2 cycles or figure out how to stretch the cycle (use of slower powders?) to match the barrel length.

He referenced several articles from Prescision Shooting Magazine. The articles actually dealt with the use of adjustable harmonic stabilizers that you can attach to the muzzle. Much research has been done with rimfire, but little has been done (published anyway) on centerfire. I think you can go to their website and look at the articles. Sorry I don't have the reference/author with me. I will see if I can dredge it up. The clinician also stated that consistent action screws tension is important, most of us know this by school of hard knocks. Remember shooting your prized possesion and being disappointed, then finding one of the action bolts screws loose? I wonder if that was the beginning of having a screw loose came from?

Waksupi,

My limited experience has been much the same as your much greater experience on this topic. Some respond well to pressure points, others need to free float. Try and try again is what keep shooters going, how boring would a dead ringer get to be.

To all,

allways wondered exactly why the military barrels were built in the lengths that they were. Is it to eak out the finest velocity, make sure that the expansion ration was correct for cartridge, or did they work it up to match the harmonics of the standard ball loading for the cartridge/rifle combination. Or are they all one in the same question? I have heard and read different things just thought I would broaden my horizons also.

Sorry for the Hi-Jack. Maybe a new thread is in order? Would like to hear others experience.

[BABore]

I used the Tubb firelapping kit in a problem 300 Win Mag. It does indeed remove metal and smooth out the nasty spots. It will also increase the throat length. I had an ugly tent stake of a barrel with an already long throat. I shot 15 rounds of each grit and ended up lengthening the throat 0.047". I think it would probably work ok on a decent barrel if you just wanted to smooth it up a bit, but I would go real slow with it. I had nothing to lose and went for it as a last resort. That Win. Super Grade action now wears a 375 H&H barrel.

I recently had my 450 Marlin GG rebarreled. The new barrel had chatter marks in it that you could grate soft cheese on. There was also 0.001" of restriction in the bore. The sticky spots were under the roll marking and dovetail cuts. This was measured by driving an egg sinker through the cleaned bore and one that was driven into the muzzle a half inch. The muzzle diameter was 0.4580" and the full pass slug was 0.4571"

I went with a lapping kit from http://www.beartoothbullets.com/. It came with a excellent Technical manual, lapping compound, 100 PB bullets, lapping plates, and a 7/8-14 hex head bolt for a bullet seater. The lapping compound is Clover 320 grit grease suspended compound. I followed their directions to a tee and had outstanding results. After you embed the bullets, they're loaded into primed, unsized cases with a low dose of Red Dot. The idea is to shoot them at just enough velocity to reliably get them out the barrel and no more. Something like 400-500 fps.

I worked up a jacketed bullet load using a Hornady 350 gr FP, Fed. 210M, and H322 powder. Prior to lapping I fired 4 or 5 3-shot groups at 100 yards. Group sizes ranged from 1 1/4" to 1 1/2". There was usually 2 shots touching with another opening it up with no pattern as to shot number, barrel condition, or temp.

I ended up firing 35 lapping rounds. The chamber was cleaned after each round and the barrel was cleaned and inspected every six rounds. What the instructions said to watch for was a change of appearance of the muzzle end machining marks. Mine didn't appear until the 33rd round. After firelapping and a thorough cleaning the barrel was given a 100 strokes with a soft bob coated with compound.

I've only had a chance to shoot the lapped barrel at 75 yards while breaking it in again. Using the same load mentioned above, I fired 3 rounds, cleaning completely after each shot. I then fired 6 more rounds cleaning after every 3 shots. All shots were at the same target. The first 8 shots went into a 5/8 inch C-C group. I called the last shot low which opened the group up to 7/8 inch.

Overall I was highly satisfied and would recommend this kit. There's a bunch of lever action shooters on Marlinowner's and Beartooth forums that have had similar experiences with firelapping. I know for sure, Dr. A (a forum member here), and RanchDog have lapped several guns. One of the things pointed out in the tech manual is the need to use a cast lead bullet of 11-13 Bhn and low velocity. The Tubb and Necco kits are all jacketed at starting HV loads. I'm not familiar with LBT's, but assume it's similar to Beartooth's I think I paid $45-50 for the kit, but there's enough compound for 3-4 guns. You could probably use your own ACWW bullets.

[454PB]

"His normal treatment for all rifles is to hand polish using JB non-embedding bore cleaner and a tight fitting patch. He said that he uses one 2 oz can for each rifle."

Good grief, that is a lot of JB bore compound. I've been working on the same 2 ounce container for 15 years!

[scrapcan]

454PB,

When the statement was made in the clinic about o\half of the audience said the same thing as you just did, I was one of them. That would be somekind of arduous effort. he said that was his normal routine and that it was a great pleasure to do this while making the brain mush watching TV.

I am not sure I coul dever have that kind of patience.

[Blackwater]

FWIW, the barrel on my #3 Ruger was mighty rough. It shot near MOA, and under MOA on some occasions, with the 300 J-bullets, but coppered up badly. I never tried any cast in it for that reason. I've considered rebarreling to .50/110 or .45/120, so just to tempt fate, and not being TOO sad if the barrel was ruined, I hand lubed some cast bullets with some fine valve grinding compound. I know you're not supposed to do that, because some of it may embed itself in the barrel, but with THAT particular barrel, and with my yearnings to rebarrel it anyway, I risked it. Fired about 25 or 30 rds, IIRC, and darned if that didn't eliminate most all the coppering.

I can't recommend this, but I think it does at least show what can happen with these polishing kits. IMO, discretion has to be the byword here, and I think it's just judicious to use some judgment with each individual barrel about just how much and what grit to use. I'm not a machinist, unfortunately, but I imagine the finer stuff will avoid lengthening the throat unduly where that'd be an issue. Where a bore restriction is present, though, I think there's no way to avoid using the coarser grit. Can anyone verify this for me? I may wind up using some on some milsurp guns in order to make them shoot cast a bit better.