Shavings and seating questions

[crankycalico]

I am completely correct that the gas check, and base of a non checked bullet needs to stay inside the case neck of a bottle neck cartridge?


I got my cases to good tension, cant move the bullet without adjusting the bullet seater die and running it through. So I feel good. Ironically I only had to do a bare minimum of mouth belling with that lee die I feel better about the whole process.

Switch from 38special and 357 magnum is an interesting journey in that stage of case preparation.

When I did the first bullet seating, it went fine and dandy. Readjusted the seeater and tried again to get more seating depth. It worked however I have tiny lead shaving around the case mouth.

https://www.oregontrailbullet.com/shop/trueshot/30-Cal-170g-RNFP-GC-309-p104527516

that's my bullet and I think it can work, its just that with my dummy rounds I made with the bullet seated factory crimp groove to case mouth, I have to much seated inside the case. So am thinking that I need to use the top lube groove or just slap the case mouth in the band directly under the top lube groove.

would be so much easier on a 30-30

[Rcmaveric]

If you are shaving bullets you need to bell the case mouth a touch more.

It is debatable if a gas check needs to stay inside the case neck. Not all of mine do and it is fine. Back when they were not crimped on it was adviced for safety reason's. As long as my lube grooves are covered i am happy.

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[GregLaROCHE]

NOE makes nice expanders that fit into the Lee flaring die. They work really well and don’t cost much.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=565&osCsid=l33jrvq1o64rn9g3gluhgiho52

[crankycalico]

I know I know I know, I needs the NOE expander dies.. I know...

the shaving only started after the first time I ran a bullet in the case through the bullet seater die. Then I had to make some adjustments to depth and then successive runs through the die got the bullet deeper but made them shavings.
Although the lee booklet says my seater die does not crimp, I think it takes the case neck back to a straight tube.

I had time today to run all 4 of my dummy rounds through, only 1 failed to chamber , the one I made yesterday so I know that as long as my case mouth barely covers the top edge of the top lube groove im good to go.

I was so happy when the failure went through the magazine but not when it stuck in the lands roughly 1/16" from the bolt handle getting into the bolt notch. Makes me wonder if anything heavier will be safe.

Ive read a few articles that stated the check needed to be inside the neck to prevent the powder blast from loosening the check, and from melting the bullet inside the case body.

[lightman]

I'm not sure I fully understand your process. Are you seating and crimping at the same time? Sometimes this causes a problem and you need to first seat the bullet and then readjust the die to crimp. Are you trying to seat the bullet deeper after you crimped it? If so, that can also be problematic.

A lot of guys use a 4 die set when loading on a progressive loader. The 4 die sets usually have a different seating and crimping die.

[country gent]

If you crimped the rounds and are trying to seat them deeper that's the reason. when you crimp you push the case mouth into the bullet or channelure. Then when you try to seat deeper the mouth scrapes cuts the bullet some depending on depth of crimp.
Its easier and a better finished result to seat and crimp separately. This way the bullet is in place and not moving when the crimp is applied. Its not hard to do this. Set die body a little high so no crimp is applied. Set seater stem to load correct Over all length. Lower die body to correct crimp and raise seater stem to not make contact. Adding a second seating die one for crimping one for seating allows for dies to stay set.

As to going from 38 spl to 357 mag ( same with 44spl to 44 mag) dies sets used to come with a .125 thick washer. Set dies to load 38 spl when switching to 357 mag just add the washer and would be very close.

[mdi]

It's not easy to push a .357"-.358" lead slug into a .354" brass tube without a tapered entry way. 99.9% of case bullet shaving is from the case mouth's edged gouging/shaving lead off a bullet. Don't be afraid to put a lot of flare in the case mouths as the only problem that could arise is the flared case mouth scraping the inside of the seating die or hitting the mouth of the die. 38 and 357 brass is cheap and easily found so don't worry about case life, just get good shootable ammo now...

[gwpercle]

I'm not sure what the question is...exactly, but for the first question the gas check does not need to be inside the neck. It used to be said this was best but has been proven the base can be below the neck.

Seat the boolit into the crimp and shoot a few groups. Should be no problem in a 30-30 . That Boolit is designed for a 30-30, are you loading it in a 30-30 or something else.
I see reference to 38 special , 357 magnum and 30-30....is there something we don't know about ?

Gary

[Rcmaveric]

Most pistol bullet seaters have a built in crimp ring and quite a few rifle seaters are that way as well.

Try screwing your seater stem all the way in and the screw the die down onto your dummy. Seat your bullets. Then screw your stemm most of the way out and screw seater die back down onto your dummy. Then crimp your rounds. It honestly sounds like you are seating and crimping at the same time and the crimp is starting before the bullet is set.



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[popper]

the gas check, and base of a non checked bullet needs to stay inside the case neck of a bottle neck cartridge? I try to keep the rim of the GC cup in the neck, the base can project into the shoulder area. Any alloy exposed to pressure can gas cut. Probably just hurts accuracy. Un-CGd or plain base should be in the neck so pressure doesn't peen the base into the shoulder area. Several yrs back, discussion with a Canuk loading 45/70 GCd but not crimped. Found a GC halfway down the barrel. Yes, they can come off.

[GregLaROCHE]

Don’t forget to chamfer the case just a little.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

What is the diameter of the bullet, what is the diameter of the neck expander. How much flare or bell are doing to the case mouth before seatin the bullet. Most rifle cartridge do NOT need to be crimped unless tube-fed or very heavy recoil, more than a 300 Mag. Get bullets seated straight before reducing bell or flare. Using a Lyman M die or an NOE expander I simply seat the bullet. If the gas check needs to extend past the case neck, it is not critical. When seating bullets, I will seat partially and turn case 1/3 or 1/2 turn as I seat to straighten bullet as it seats. If you are shaving lead only on one side your bullet is crooked, if all around uniformly, you need more flare or bell. DO NOT crimp until the bullet is fully seated, any crimp should be just enough that the cartridge chambers smoothly, just eliminating the flare.

[waco]

Don’t forget to chamfer the case just a little.

Learned this one the hard way.....

[crankycalico]

the references to 38/357 is that, that's the ONLY experience I have with reloading, so its natural that im trying to explain my issues with bottle necked rifles using that experience.

The issue was that the LEE bullet seater that comes with the 3 die sets full length sizer, seater, lee factory collet crimp, simply seat. Its just that what little mouth belling on the .308 case mouth disappears the first time I seat the bullet in the case and pull it out to check.

And as the manuals say, if bullet is not seated far enough in, adjust seater stem, and try again. And doing that has an even ring of lead shaving around the bullet.

And after reading your guys answers, and reviewing my case prep procedure, I forgot to chamfer the case mouths. Not even with my 8x57s.. and those PC bullets had no issue with multiple adjustments to seating depth..

[eagle27]

the references to 38/357 is that, that's the ONLY experience I have with reloading, so its natural that im trying to explain my issues with bottle necked rifles using that experience.

The issue was that the LEE bullet seater that comes with the 3 die sets full length sizer, seater, lee factory collet crimp, simply seat. Its just that what little mouth belling on the .308 case mouth disappears the first time I seat the bullet in the case and pull it out to check.

And as the manuals say, if bullet is not seated far enough in, adjust seater stem, and try again. And doing that has an even ring of lead shaving around the bullet.

And after reading your guys answers, and reviewing my case prep procedure, I forgot to chamfer the case mouths. Not even with my 8x57s.. and those PC bullets had no issue with multiple adjustments to seating depth..

As others have said, get your bullet seating depth correct before attempting to do any crimping i.e. back off your seating die so it doesn't crimp and then seat a bullet, adjusting the seating stem until you can chamber a round without the bullet biting into the rifling. Give a good case mouth chamfer after trimming all cases to the same length. You don't always need to flare cases provide you are using gas checks with chamfered cases.
What will happen even when not crimping is that your seating die, if made to close tolerances, will close up any case mouth flare hence if you do not chamfer your cases, any seating depth adjustment after the first seating will see lead being shaved from the bullet.
If you want to seat and crimp in one operation you need to seat a bullet to the correct depth without crimping, back out the seating stem, then adjust your seating/crimping die down until you get the correct crimp you want. Once satisfied with the crimp, keep the crimped cartridge up in the seating die and adjust your seating stem down until it stops hard on the bullet. Now the die is set to both seat and crimp the bullet in one pass.
Again it is important to maintain your cases trimmed to the same length.

Provided your gas checks fit and crimp properly to the bullet base, the bullet can be seated deeper with the GC below the neck without any harm.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Many(most) RIFLE seating dies have a crimping shoulder built into the die. You cannot simply screw the seating die against the shell holder to seat bullets. Using an expanded case, screw the seating die into your press until you feel it run into your expanded case, When the crimp disappears, back up 1/2 turn or more and tighten the die lock ring. Unscrew the bullet seating stem and start adjusting to seat the bullet to your desired overall length. When the bullets are seating, with the flare or bell intact and the overall length is what you want, seat ALL the bullets. To smooth the flare or add a crimp, unscrew the seating stem a few turns. Now working with your cartridge with a seated bullet, loosen the die lock ring and slowly adjust the seating die toward the shell holder until the 'bell' or 'flare' is smoothed enough to not catch on anything (chamber edge) as it is chambered. More crimp should not be needed unless a tube feed or bullets move due to recoil.