Any mechanics here? Power steering question-

[fatelk]

My wife's old minivan is having troubles and I'm way too cheap to take it to a shop, if it's something I can possibly do myself.

The problem began a few days ago when it was having trouble starting. You'd turn the key and it would fire, but die immediately, no idle. After a few tries it would start and run perfectly fine. Then she called me at work to say that she'd had a terrible time starting it, but then after a few miles the power steering quit. She could man-handle the steering wheel and she made it home that way.

I have it jacked up in the garage. I got the power steering pump off and bought a new one. There is lots of metal in the old fluid. I took the old one apart and everything was intact except for some serious scoring and galling where the vane rotor was eating into the pump body.

232194

I have the new pump installed and was getting ready to flush the system when it occurred to me that maybe the damage to the pump could be a result of damage elsewhere and not necessarily the cause of the problem. I didn't want get it flushed and start it up only to damage the new pump.

Any ideas? I couldn't see how the starting problem could be related to the power steering, but it sure was a coincident if it wasn't. I can do a lot of this kind of stuff for myself, but don't claim to be a mechanic. I probably know just enough to get myself into trouble.

[tomme boy]

Put the return line in a bucket and start the motor. Run 2 quarts of new fluid through it to flush out the old stuff and hopefully all the metal shavings. Find a inline transmission filter and put that in the return line and hope for the best for now. You will probably be putting a new gearbox in shortly.

[Brassduck]

I would guess the fuel pump is dieing.

[osteodoc08]

What year make and model? Mileage? Previous repairs or fixes? Any DTC?

We really need more info.

Not wanting to idle can be a ton of things. As mentioned, check your fuel rail pressure. Also consider evaluating the TPS and IAC solenoid if applicable.

When was the last tune up? Wires? COP?

Really need more info.

[country gent]

Flush system and maybe even back flush it ( push fluid thru in opposite direction) the back flush will remove chips and crud caught in corners and bends with the opposite flow. There is little to go wrong with the newer rack and pinion systems.
Steering boxes can get interesting. Chrysler used the same body casting for many but some were right hand spiral and some were left hand spiral in them. I replaced one on Dads 77 dodge truck yard said it was the one. got it changed out and dang near hit the barn. Turned steering wheel left, truck turned right. Would have been great anti theft system. LOL Mot Steering systems have the means to set steering wheel to level, adjust play out. A lot require special tools to rebuild. Bearings and seals are the big issue on high milage vehicles.

[fatelk]

Thanks everyone. We had a doctor appointment this morning, so I'm getting everything together now to flush it out real well. I'll get that done and then address the starting issue. I originally assumed that was a fuel issue, probably the IAC, but the weird thing was how it seemed to be related to the steering issue. It made me wonder if perhaps the galling was dragging hard on a cold start or something, because once it started it ran like a top.

It's an 18 year old Toyota Sienna, with well over a quarter million miles. It's been an incredibly reliable vehicle. I've been pretty distracted with life lately and have been neglecting maintenance.

[fatelk]

Of course; I should have known full well there really couldn't be any relationship between the two maladies. I got the new pump on, flushed the system real well, installed a filter, and got everything cleaned up and tightened.

It was a bear to start. It steers very nicely now, but it was clearly just a freak coincidence that this thing should run perfectly for years upon end, then fail with two unrelated problems at about the same time. What are the odds.

I'm really inclined to tear into the throttle body and see what I can do with the IAC. That's my best guess at this point. It starts hard when it's cold, like it's starving for fuel, then all at once it's running like a top, purring right along. When it's warm it starts easy.

I've been telling my wife that at some point we're going to have to break down and replace a vehicle or two. I don't know anyone who runs them as long as we have. She was near my work at lunch time a while back so we had lunch together. I laughed as we were getting out of our vehicles at the restaurant. She asked why and I said it was just because I realized that we're still driving the same vehicles we were on the day we met, almost 17 years ago. The Sienna was a later addition when kid #3 came along, but at nearly 300k it getting about worn out too.

I figure why replace them as long as they still function reliably? Driving these old rigs has sure saved us a ton of money over the years. At this point though, they are nearing the end. I can't complain; they've been some darn good rigs.

[mattw]

I run them as long as you do... My last F150 had 287k, only had the replace the alternator 1 time in all those miles. My current Expedition has 255k, did have a tranny die at about 190k.

[Three44s]

I do not know beans about the OP’s vehicle but I have a 91 Buick that went gunny sack a few years ago and I was dead sure it was a plugged fuel filter.

I was in town and the car would die right out of the blue. It would restart at first but as time went on, it would die again, maybe restart and maybe it would have to set a while. I got a hold of shop I take things I do not understand and then a tow service. The car restarted, and I limped towards the shop I wanted to work on the vehicle.

It died once enroute and restarted. I made it finally and called the tow service and waived him off.

So after a fair amount of fiddling the shop found that the ignition module was acting up. They changed it. Something was still amiss.

It turned out the crankshaft position sensor was also bad.

At my insistence they also changed the fuel filter.

It used to be a fuel problem was just that, a fuel problem but not in this day of modern electronic everything.

My .02 worth

Three44s

[john.k]

I reckon i got a lot of that beat.I bought the last mechanical pump diesel on the market here in 2006......any electronics fail will be the dash display........the pump has got a couple of electric connections ,but I ve got an earlier pump with none,as a spare.I reckon it will last to the end of fuel in 20 yrs time.Only cloud on the horizon is greenies getting up a diesel hate,emissions testing might be problematic in the future.Funny,20 years ago diesel was the clean car of the future......now theres diesel hate everywhere.

[abunaitoo]

Don't like new cars.
I still drive my 1990 Nissan Maxima, and 1999 Nissan Frontier.
Don't really drive much though.

If you don't have a "check engine" light on. could be fuel pump.
Have you change it yet????
Is the "check engine" light working????

[Oily]

With a 2000 model you may be having problems with running the **** ethanol mix through it. IMHO if your fuel pump was going bad it would have quit by now. Sounds like this problem has been going on for awhile with the hard starting and whatnot. Only help I can give would be to disconnect your negative battery cable for a few minutes and reset your computer and then try it for a few days. I am a contract worker and run about 120,000 miles a year and have run all brands of vehicles. Sometimes the computer (glitches) and usually you have many warning lights come on all at once. Sometimes no light at all. If in doubt disconnect your battery and see if the reboot will solve your problem. Your friend Oily

[Lloyd Smale]

hard starting is a pretty good sign of one of two things. First is timing. If your timing is to retarted it will be hard starting but could run fine once running. timing belt slipping or crank position sensor would be my first two checks. Second is fuel pressure problems but those usually show too as lack of power. Many modern computer controlled cars start in open loop which just means a program in the computer controls fuel pressure idle ect until the car warms up and goes into closed loop which is when your computer takes input from all the sensors to control fuel air and timing. Usually if a senor is causing the problem you will notice it more when its warmed up not when its cold. Both cold and hot (open and closed) use the crank sensor to determine the proper time to fire the plug. If that sensor is not allowing enough timing advance or your timing belt has jumped and your running retarted all the time it will be hard starting. What makes me shake my head is that your not seeing a check engine code. Sometimes going to a mechanic with the proper equiptment to diagnose your engine is cheaper then just willy nilly changing parts and hoping. Or taking advice from idiots like me. Your mechanic can hook up to a diagnoses machine and view about every aspect of the way your car is running from cold to warm and nail it the first time.

[jsizemore]

Check your fuel pressure. If low it could be the fuel filter, pump or fuel pressure regulator. Hard start but runs after warmed is usually plugged filter and most of the time pump. Best to check the pressure at the fuel rail and go from there.

[fatelk]

The only engine code was "Random Multiple Misfire Detected". That doesn't tell me much, other than it's a fuel or electrical problem, which I knew already. It started fairly easy this morning. It fires when I turn the key, and dies when I let go. It does that a couple times, then it will start and idle slow and rough for a few seconds, then all at once it will start purring like a kitten and it runs like a million dollars until we park it and let it sit long enough to cool down. One of the guys at work said that his Camaro did the exact same thing a while back after he'd let it sit without driving for a few weeks. He put some additive in the gas and it went away.

As to mechanics, I haven't been to a mechanic in many years. I'm sure there are plenty of really good, honest mechanics out there, but I had some work done way back when by a couple different mechanics that weren't so good. The first one was just incompetent and screwed up anything he touched. The second one did OK at first on a couple small things, but then completely ripped me off on something that should have been simple. I decided after that that i would never take something to a mechanic that I could possibly do myself.

I'm the same with appliances and home improvements. I just can't shell out $500 here, $1000 there. I don't understand how people can buy new vehicles, furniture, and appliances all the time. I feel like I make a pretty decent income, but raising a family on a single income makes finances a bit tight.

[Lloyd Smale]

to do it yourself you will need a multi meter and a service manual. The service manual will tell you what to look for in the case of a random misfire and what sensors can cause it. Then it will give you the reading range each sensor has for limits and you test each one till you find the bad one. If its an injector its tested the same way. If you have a service manual a fuel pressure gauge and a multi meter and the mechanical ability to steer your way through the problem it can be done in your garage. If your just attacking the problem by willy nilly replaceing parts from suggestions on an outdoors fourm your going to no doubt be wasting some money. Every new car or truck I buy I get a set of service manuals for. Even if you send it in to get repaired a bit of research in the service manual will tell you instantly if the mechanic is fixing it legitimately or charging you for stuff that has nothing to do with your problem. If you get a bill from a mechanic for a miss and he replaced 2 or 3 sensors and put new plugs and wires on and said it was all needed hes smoking crack, doesn't know what hes doing and just replaced parts willy nilly like you could of or he didn't even replace them and just said he did. A good honest mechanic is like finding a good honest lawyer. There are some but there more the exception then the rule. But that said I shake my head at guys who complain they charge 75 bucks an hour. They pay for there building either buying or renting. they have to have 10s of thousands of dollars in tools and diagnosis equiptment especially for the newer more complicated cars and trucks. they have employees that are probably doing the wrenching they have to pay for. they have electric, heat, phone bills ect that they have to pay. Some think because they only make 20 bucks an hour that it isn't fair for there mechanic to charge them 3 times that. truth be told his actual take home out of that 75 bucks is a very small amount.

[rockrat]

Check your plugs first. If you have a v6, then check the front three since the back three are tough to get to (at least on my 2010 Highlander).

Daughter was borrowing it and developed problems with starting. Toyota suggested plugs but they only had 50K on them (Iridium plugs--should be good for 100K) and they cleaned the TBI. Helped some, so when we visited this past weekend, I pullled the front plugs. Looked no bueno, but they were Autolite plugs, which I dislike, but the shop that changed the plugs did even though I requested NGK when I had the back ones changed (gotta pull off the intake). Changed the front 3 plugs with NGK and replaced the Mass Airflow Sensor. Had her put a bottle of Chevron injector cleaner in the tank too.
Things are working fine now. Will have to have the back three plugs changed soon, a different shop and use NGK plugs. Car has 162K on it.

[Brassduck]

the hard part with diagnose a problem is not being able to put my hands on it. there is a process for diagnose's, a diagnose tree. all the automotive manufacturers use them, they work. run a fuel pressure test.that's the place to start.

[fatelk]

I don't begrudge anyone an honest wage, and certainly not a good mechanic. I also realize it's unfair for me to judge all mechanics because of a couple of jokers I ran into 15 years ago. I just came to the conclusion that most things I could take care of myself. I am much slower than a knowledgeable mechanic but I would learn in the process. I remember now one of the frustrating things with the second mechanic years ago was that he couldn't figure out an intermittent problem with my wife's car (the one we still drive) and he willy-nilly threw parts at it. Heck, I can do that.

I do a fair amount of troubleshooting and mechanical work myself, but typically on much larger machines and complex systems. I have a degree in electronics and many, many years of troubleshooting and repair on my resume. I just don't work on cars every day so it's a process to work through where to even start.

I last replaced the plugs when I replaced the timing belt and coolant pump 17k miles ago. After I was done with that job I was wishing I'd taken it to a shop. It turned out fine and ran great ever since, but it was not an easy job for a novice. No, actually I'm glad I did it myself. I figure I saved myself about $700 and learned a lot in the process.

Now for the funny part: it had just a little hesitation starting yesterday morning, but my wife drove it off and on all day with absolutely zero problems, and it started up perfectly this morning after sitting all night. I don't get it. Intermittent problems are the worst for troubleshooting. I did put some additive in the gas when it first started acting up, as a shot in the dark. Maybe that helped? Anyway, I'll keep an eye on it and look into it further if it starts acting up again. If it does, I'll go buy a fuel pressure gauge and check that out first off.

Thanks again everyone!

[tomme boy]

Check and see if it has a fuel filter. Some do some do not. I would change that and go from there if it does have one.

[GregLaROCHE]

How is your oil consumption? That can be a good indicator of overall engine condition. 250K miles. It all depends, but sometimes good old horses need to be put out to pasture.

I’m fighting the same thing with my wife’s car now. Fifteen years old 200K miles. The motor is still strong, but it’s just all the other stuff that’s going now. Especially plastic and rubber parts. Unfortunately, it was her father’s car and she won’t part with it. So we put almost the equivalent of new car payments into it each year.

[fatelk]

We've spent amazingly little on vehicles over the years. We haven't had a car payment in 15 years. I hate the thought of going back to having one. Most years the most I even spend on maintenance is oil changes. I used to do that myself, but a local place charges $20, and it's just not worth bothering with for that.

The van uses hardly any oil. Occasionally I'll add a half quart after two or three thousand miles. I think it has a very small leak. My experience with Toyotas has been very good. It rains a lot here in the Pacific Northwest, but there's no salt on the roads so they don't rust out like they do in some places. As old as our vehicles are though, I realize that they won't last forever. I keep telling my wife that sooner or later one of them is going to quit to where it's not worth repairing.

[jonp]

I run them as long as you do... My last F150 had 287k, only had the replace the alternator 1 time in all those miles. My current Expedition has 255k, did have a tranny die at about 190k.

My daily driver is a 1997 Honda CRV. I've replaced struts, tie rods, ball joints and control arms, rotors and brakes, engine mounts, gaskets, muffler, etc..All in the yard with it on jacks. If I can do it myself I'm not paying someone and I am finding that with the help of a Chiltons, YouTube video's and tools from Harbor Freight most everything short of removing the engine and transmission is doable. I'd take a crack at those too if I had an enclosed space.

All told I bet I have less than $750 in parts most of them Chinese from Amazon or Ebay. How much I've saved in labor I have no Idea.It's an experiment both to see how long it lasts and how long the Chinese parts hold out. So far the quality has been ok although on the rotors they rusted up fast. Still work fine, though.

[jonp]

We haven't had a car payment in 15 years. I hate the thought of going back to having one.

Got that right. When I here guys talk about an $800 truck payment I shudder. We are saving up and in just a couple of years I'm buying a 3/4 ton diesel pickup. Pretty new or new as it will be the last truck I buy, hopefully, and I will run it through retirement. For our needs, buying a new one makes no sense really although we are thinking of getting a new Mitsubishi for my wifes daily commuter. About $12,000 for a new car with a 200,000 mile warranty and few oil changes for life is a good deal.

[jonp]

Check your plugs first. If you have a v6, then check the front three since the back three are tough to get to (at least on my 2010 Highlander).

Daughter was borrowing it and developed problems with starting. Toyota suggested plugs but they only had 50K on them (Iridium plugs--should be good for 100K) and they cleaned the TBI. Helped some, so when we visited this past weekend, I pullled the front plugs. Looked no bueno, but they were Autolite plugs, which I dislike, but the shop that changed the plugs did even though I requested NGK when I had the back ones changed (gotta pull off the intake). Changed the front 3 plugs with NGK and replaced the Mass Airflow Sensor. Had her put a bottle of Chevron injector cleaner in the tank too.
Things are working fine now. Will have to have the back three plugs changed soon, a different shop and use NGK plugs. Car has 162K on it.

Was there a reason why you didn't replace all of the plugs at the same time? Plugs seem to me like ball joints, headlight bulbs, shocks etc. Do all of them at the same time as if one is bad the others are not far behind.

[GregLaROCHE]

My daily driver is a 1997 Honda CRV. I've replaced struts, tie rods, ball joints and control arms, rotors and brakes, engine mounts, gaskets, muffler, etc..All in the yard with it on jacks. If I can do it myself I'm not paying someone and I am finding that with the help of a Chiltons, YouTube video's and tools from Harbor Freight most everything short of removing the engine and transmission is doable. I'd take a crack at those too if I had an enclosed space.

All told I bet I have less than $750 in parts most of them Chinese from Amazon or Ebay. How much I've saved in labor I have no Idea.It's an experiment both to see how long it lasts and how long the Chinese parts hold out. So far the quality has been ok although on the rotors they rusted up fast. Still work fine, though.

You’re lucky. I presume you’re not that old when you try to break loose a stubborn bolt, your shoulder gives out and you can’t do anything with it for two weeks. When I was younger, I got a lot of bloody knuckles. They didn’t take long to heal, but after sixty, it’s the other parts that give out. At least for me.

Also, luckily for my generation, if you had some mechanical sense, it wasn’t too hard to do a lot on a vehicle. They were a lot simpler and user friendly under the hood.

[GregLaROCHE]

I run them as long as you do... My last F150 had 287k, only had the replace the alternator 1 time in all those miles. My current Expedition has 255k, did have a tranny die at about 190k.

I had a Ford F-150, one of the best vehicles ever built. Straight six , 300 cdi. I bought it with 80K miles on it. I replaced a few things but it was always a dependable vehicle. At 300K I changed the engine. Only because it had a cracked block. It had antifreeze, but that year we had -70 and it wasn’t enough.

After the new motor I was even thinking of getting it a paint job. Two weeks after, an employee of mine rolled it. After that It was used to haul trash to dump for another 100K miles. It’s parked now but still runs, if you want to put a battery in it.

[rockrat]

jonp--Didn't replace them all as you have to pull the intake off to get to the back three plugs. Its a 4+ hour job and if I had the time and a place to do it, I might have. Cold garages aren't my thing anymore. My body is paying the price for things I did when I was younger. Not near as flexable as I once was.

[jonp]

jonp--Didn't replace them all as you have to pull the intake off to get to the back three plugs. Its a 4+ hour job and if I had the time and a place to do it, I might have. Cold garages aren't my thing anymore. My body is paying the price for things I did when I was younger. Not near as flexable as I once was.

I know what a pain it is, I did it or tried to. Yuch...ended up having to remove the computer from the firewall and even then one of them was stuck. After reading the horror stories on F150 Forums I left them for the mechanic that fixed a bent rod to replace. I had a chain guide break. I got the front off to do the timing job but after replacing everything found out the motor had jumped time so had it towed to an engine shop to fix the rod. Whoever came up with that 5.4 Triton design should be shot. Cam Phasers, plastic chain guides, spark plugs you can't get to.... Putting axle shafts, bearings, struts etc is a breeze, though.

My body is paying the price for things I did when I was younger.

Yup. Mid 50's and my knee's and back are reminding how much a bad idea jumping from perfectly good aircraft in full battle rattle was.

[tomme boy]

Ford has a class action law suite against them about those spark plugs if you had to pay to have them changed. Meaning take the cab off to do it.

[fatelk]

Thought I'd post some resolution to this thread. For a couple days the van started and ran fine, then yesterday morning it was really cold out, and it had some trouble starting again.

From my research I was pretty convinced that the problem was with the IAC valve, so I tore into it and pulled off the throttle body. The IAC was a mess. It was full of gunk and carbon, stuck when I first tried moving it, and not easy to move when I got it freed. I used most of a can of carb cleaner on it and the throttle body. I probably could have gotten it freed up without pulling it all apart, but I wanted to get it thoroughly clean. I just got it all put back together and it started up perfectly the first time.

I should have done that right away. I was confused by the two separate problems manifesting at the same time, and the one being so intermittent. I'm glad they were both relatively minor.

I do have to say to the mechanics here- you have my respect. All this craning, straining, reaching, pulling, squinting, and knuckle scraping has me feeling beat up. Working on modern vehicles makes me miss the old Chevy truck we had on the farm. With it's 292 straight six, you could practically crawl into the engine compartment and take a seat to work on it. The machines at work are much bigger, but they're also stationary and not all crammed into tiny little cramped spaces. I think I'd rather work on a 3,000 HP compressor than a minivan any day.

[rl69]

I don't know a whater pump on a 742 wakashaw isn't the easiest thing in the world to change

[Crash_Corrigan]

Most of the chain auto parts stores have a computer diagnostic hand held tool which they will run on your car just by plugging it into the module under the dash. Many times a malfunction can by detected by a computer code that the tool will indicate. If it is just a bad sensor then you can buy the replacement part and install it yourself. I cannot overrecommend a Chilton's manual for your vehicle. I have one for both my Triumph motorcycle and my Nissan Frontier truck.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve had similar experiences with two completely different, unrelated things going wrong at the same time. Until you get them figured out, you would swear they were related. It can be a real headache. Glad you got your problems fixed.

[osteodoc08]

Glad you got it figured out.

[Wag]

I figure why replace them as long as they still function reliably? Driving these old rigs has sure saved us a ton of money over the years. At this point though, they are nearing the end. I can't complain; they've been some darn good rigs.

Glad you got it all ironed out. Amazing what a simple solution can do for your peace of mind!

From a purely financial perspective, when a car's annual repair bills start to exceed the annual cost of a new car, it's time to replace it. I had a '98 Z28 that lasted me 230K miles and was still pulling very strong but it kept needing more and more money to keep it on the road. It was paid off, so, following the above rule, I kept it longer than I might have if I were making payments on it but eventually, it was more than it was worth to keep it running and I traded it in.

Also, even though you don't have a car payment, per se, always keep a "car payment" going into a savings account just so you can be ready when the time comes. Nothing better than paying cash in full (or a large down payment) for a nice used car and then paying little to no interest on a loan.

And as you say, keep doing your own work as much as possible. YouTube has made it so much easier to do this.

--Wag--