idiocy of the gun industry

[crankycalico]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.

Now the manuals always expect people to know how to set the sights up, and to know how to get the proper sight picture without ever using iron sights before, and very little in the manual...

SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again?

[am44mag]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.

Now the manuals always expect people to know how to set the sights up, and to know how to get the proper sight picture without ever using iron sights before, and very little in the manual...

SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again?

There are a ton of iron sight options for ARs and other gun types with rails. Lever actions and single shots have always come with iron sights and probably always will. Most people want a scope on their guns though, especially their bolt actions which is the main type of rifle I've seen sold without sights at all. None the less, some bolt actions still come with iron sights.

You can't really blame the industry for producing what most people are wanting.

[MUSTANG]

There is also the issue of an aging society (Baby Boomers getting to retirement/medicare age). Many shooters who have the wherewithal to purchase multiple firearms are in their 50's plus; and are experiencing difficulty of seeing without aid so they choose Scopes.

Of course; there is also an element of our society who have NO KNOWLEDGE of iron sites and they see the variety of generic "Red Dot" sights and Scopes as the baseline of how to aim a firearm. A parallel to the Smart Phone addiction.

[WILCO]

Every man is a rifleman.
Woman included too.
That being said, with any endeavor it would behoove one to do some basic research.
Should one source of information be lacking, there is another which isn't.
In today's whiz bang age of information, the answers are there.

[GARD72977]

Where did this idea come from. No one I talk to has this mentality. Most new guys start off with a scoped 22 or hunting rifle.

[crankycalico]

well perhaps before 2015 a lot of writers seemed to suggest to the masses that an ar in standard military sights was the perfect thing to learn how to shoot on. And it is good.

However that's an issue when the only option for a bolt action with sights is to put up with something that comes with crappy shotgun sights meant for 100 yard or less.
Sure lever actions come with peep sights, buckhorns, etc. But the whole lever action segment has been denigrated to "cowboy reenactment" by the industry itself, and to "short range hunting only, 100 yards at best".

the NRA matches and Camp Perry PROVE the old military sights kick *** still. Why does the industry deny us that right?

You can use the cell phone analogy, of course they wont make a cell phone they don't think they can sell. They control the market demand itself. Its like ford in 1930 saying "americans only want black paint on a ford because we haven't sold a car in any other color. Because we haven't made a car in any other color"

[country gent]

Now even the NRA rifle matches allow a scope. Ive shot a lot of iron sights at distance ( out to 1000yds) the sights used by competitors are very good accurate and repeatable but some cost almost as much as a factory rifle. Back in the late 80s my warner rear sight with out appeture was $475.00 the adjustable appeture was another $100.00 and the front gloge with adjustable appeture another $150.00-$200.00. This is why most competitors had several rifles but one set of sights. I wouldn't want to subject this sight to the rigors and rough handling of hunting.
The manufacturers have a price point they have to maintain and on a off the rack rifle it has to be a solid rear sight that's is rugged enough to hold up to the rough handling. One thing the military sights did do very well.

I believe every shooter should be profiecent with iron sights Appetures, notch and bade, along with scopes. Unlike High Power shooters most hunters and plinkers adjust sights for different ranges or wind. They set rifle to a know distance and use Kentucky elevation / windage for changes. Where as the true target competitor knows the settings for 100yds, 200 yds 300yds ect keeps a score book with these settings and adjusts for each range on the sight or scope. Same with wind they know no wind zero on sights and adjust for given conditions as needed.

[Omega]

Where did this idea come from. No one I talk to has this mentality. Most new guys start off with a scoped 22 or hunting rifle.

Blame the ammo shortage and gougers, that made the 5.56 cheaper to shoot than the .22 LR. Give it awhile, it will go back to .22 unless we have another shortage.

[9.3X62AL]

I did not have military experience, but grew up shooting from a very young age. Iron sights were the rule for me, and still are to a large extent. I have scoped rifles, but glassware is found on about 30% of my long arms. There are no optics on any of my handguns, and I have no plans to add scopes to my short guns. I think highly of the aperture sight system on my AR-15's A2 upper half, and several coyotes have been permanently impressed by the stalwart aperture sights found on my Mini-14, to 225 yards in one instance.

[MaryB]

Iron sites are kinda self explanatory for the basic ones that come stock on some rifles...

AR popularity is due to ergonomics for new shooters, soon as my nieces and nephews graduated to center fire I taught with an AR and a scope because it can be more accurate with practice.

And ALL my rifles are scoped... 58 year old eyes and bifocals...

[frkelly74]

My Daisy had open stamped metal sights and I managed to shoot sparrows, break beer bottles and could hit a pie plate that my dad threw up in the air reliably. He was quite amazed at the pie plate feat. He was not so thrilled about the broken beer bottles. I found them to be quite intuitive to use and a good learning tool. I can still use open sights quite effectively.

[Petrol & Powder]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.
...................

I guess "They" in the above statement is the gun industry as a group?

And then the OP writes, ".....SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again? "

I'm not sure I agree with that supposition. I think "They" (the gun industry) is trying to sell firearms - period. It's the consumers that want to buy AR platforms.

A better question would be, "why do consumers buy some rifles with iron sights and some without iron sights ?"
The gun manufacturers make what sells. It is the consumer that dictates what the gun industry makes.

[elmacgyver0]

I just buy what I want and don't worry too much what they write about or what anyone thinks.

[Ickisrulz]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.

Now the manuals always expect people to know how to set the sights up, and to know how to get the proper sight picture without ever using iron sights before, and very little in the manual...

SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again?

There are tons of sources on the internet that explain how to use the AR iron sights. Why waste money on printed materials?

I wouldn't refer to AR15/M16 sights as "basic." They are fantastic sights.

[mold maker]

If you have tired old eyes that no longer focus, no iron sight is the answer. On the other hand, if your eyes retain their youth, any iron sight is reasonable. Don't blame the sight, they don't age. Peep sights certainly help, but it's a stop gap that will eventually fade. Get and use what you need now, and into the future.

[Three44s]

Hmmmm, I was not aware of any manufacturer cohercion!

The Ar/223 may have snatched the limelight away from 22 rim due to ammo pricing /availabilty for a while but that pendulum is getting back to a more normal status ....

My lens on how to use sights might be a bit traditional it would seem as well. I grew up with irons, buck horn, rear leaf and aperture. I quickly found aperture much better for my most hunted quarry back in those youthful days, ground squirrels.

Once my eyes fell off the cliff, optics were not very optional anymore. But predator hunting caused a transition for those hunts long before the eye/cliff thing happened.

As far as the issue on how to use and adjust the iron sights, my teacher for how to hunt and adjust and care for guns as well as firearm safety ... my father ... covered that. Finer points were picked up here and there .... but lots of iddy biddy things were gathered by experience, much of that while flinging lead down range at paper, inanimate objects and game.

If I have missed something or been bamboozled by some fat dude in some ivory tower of gun makers along the way, I fail to see it nor am I worried about it.

Now I do have a small gripe with gun writers that had to dump on large caliber revolvers and reading their near universal nannyism about the 44 Mag. I spent my best years believing that the 44 Mag was too much for me. At age 41 I felt forced to conquer this “great beast” of a cartridge because there were reports of a grizzly hanging out on our summer cattle range.

What I did not realize was how much handloading (which I began at age 19) can change the character these big revolvers and that the recoil of full power was more of a perceived problem that melts away with time and practice with gentler loads.

A good magazine article about that went sorely lacking.

Three44s

[am44mag]

Now I do have a small gripe with gun writers that had to dump on large caliber revolvers and reading their near universal nannyism about the 44 Mag. I spent my best years believing that the 44 Mag was too much for me. At age 41 I felt forced to conquer this “great beast” of a cartridge because there were reports of a grizzly hanging out on our summer cattle range.

What I did not realize was how much handloading (which I began at age 19) can change the character these big revolvers and that the recoil of full power was more of a perceived problem that melts away with time and practice with gentler loads.

A good magazine article about that went sorely lacking.

Three44s

I have to agree with you on this. I always though that the 44 mag was this untamable beast of a round. That is, until I shot a 4" 44 mag at a meet and greet for another forum. Even full house loads are not that bad. After some training, they're actually enjoyable. Especially if you're a bit of a recoil junkie like me. It wasn't long before I bought a rifle in that caliber, then a 6" 629. I probably shoot more 44 mag than any other round. It's so versatile and easy to load for.

[gnostic]

I have to agree with you on this. I always though that the 44 mag was this untamable beast of a round. That is, until I shot a 4" 44 mag at a meet and greet for another forum. Even full house loads are not that bad. After some training, they're actually enjoyable. Especially if you're a bit of a recoil junkie like me. It wasn't long before I bought a rifle in that caliber, then a 6" 629. I probably shoot more 44 mag than any other round. It's so versatile and easy to load for.

I'm still without the feeling in a couple of my fingers as the result of shooting stiff handloads of 296 powder and 320 grain bullets from a SBH and Dan Wesson. I think it depends on how many of them you shoot in a day.

I've never shot better than 3.5" with any rifle with iron sights. At a hundred yards, the sights on a SBH cover about 18" of the steel silhouette targets I shoot at. And yes, I use a 6 o'clock hold...

[Rick R]

I don’t understand the question(s). :?:

Plenty of military manuals, ex-military individuals and youtube videos that can show how to set up the sights on an AR shaped rifle. And plenty of AR shaped rifles with rails for scope or red dot sights.

Most rifles come either with irons and/or drilled and tapped for your choice in sighting apparatus. Once upon a time that wasn’t universal.

At 59 I took two deer this year with peep sighted rifles. Next year my goal is at least one with a handgun with ironsights. I want to get that done again before I get too old. ;)

[Moonie]

well perhaps before 2015 a lot of writers seemed to suggest to the masses that an ar in standard military sights was the perfect thing to learn how to shoot on. And it is good.

However that's an issue when the only option for a bolt action with sights is to put up with something that comes with crappy shotgun sights meant for 100 yard or less.
Sure lever actions come with peep sights, buckhorns, etc. But the whole lever action segment has been denigrated to "cowboy reenactment" by the industry itself, and to "short range hunting only, 100 yards at best".

the NRA matches and Camp Perry PROVE the old military sights kick *** still. Why does the industry deny us that right?

You can use the cell phone analogy, of course they wont make a cell phone they don't think they can sell. They control the market demand itself. Its like ford in 1930 saying "americans only want black paint on a ford because we haven't sold a car in any other color. Because we haven't made a car in any other color"

I've looked through your posts, you do a lot of complaining about things. A good bit more than contributing. You are certainly living up to the first part of your name lol.

[MT Chambers]

Some of us hunt big game at short ranges and prefer large caliber guns, usually lever actions, at short ranges and with open or peep sights, even on the prairies here in Canada most of my shooting is at close ranges, with iron sights.

[country gent]

Here is something to consider. A few of us were sitting around waiting for scores to be posted and any prizes after the ORPA Bob Wright Memorial 1000 yd match. This match was 3 relays, Any rifle any sights, any rifle iron sights, and service rifle. Talk turned to scores in the 3 stages and the score books came out of the stools. Almost to a person the any rifle any sights scores were 3-5 points lower than the any rifle iron sight scores. The X count was sometimes 1-2 higher for any sights. Keep in mind a 100-0 beats a 99-9X all day long. Most of us shot the same rifle and load both any rifle any sights and any rifle iron sights. Took the scope off installed the Irons and put the settings on. I have been to matches where it was the other way any rifle Irons, then any rifle any sights.
That day I was shooting a tight necked 243 and 105 JLKs, sights were Scope was a Leapould 6.5 X 20 target with side adjust parallax, Iron sight was a warner long range rear with gehman aperture adjustable for aperture size and diopter, Front was an Tomkins with gehman adjustable aperture. If memory serve scope was 196-8X and Irons were 198-9X.
A lot think the scope is a necessity for shooting but not always.

[crankycalico]

the national match iron sights for the ar rifle proved that iron sights are still valid at 1000 with practice, even if the cartridge isn't exactly a man dropper at that range.

They made iron sights a sort of joke for the AR platform. yeah you still get the m-16 front sight on the gas block, but you don't get the rear sight on the carry handle, stupid flat top.

You have to pay more for an ar with a carry handle or A2 configuration.

Its just that that 900$ Model 70 in 30-06 is a cartridge and rifle combination capable of blowing a watermelon off a stump at a half mile if you practice. A lot of you guys can do that with your 03a rifles. But they insist on those crappy SHOTGUN sights that aren't useful past 100 yards.

Its like a person has a .5 acre garden with 3 woodchucks in it, and instead of getting their kids 22 short pump rifle out, they get a 243 WSSM with 12-40x55 target scope

[EDG]

This is a strange topic.
1. I started shooting with a common Daisy gun when I was about 8 or 9. Everything was iron sight then and I didn"t read about guns for several years. My dad never owned and was never interested in fire arms.
I moved to the farm to live with my grandparents. They had 2 .22 LR that belonged to my uncle. One open sight pump and a heavy target rifle with aperture sights. My grand parents only used the .22s for killing a chicken and home protection.
My grandmother bought me .22 ammo for an allowance of a sort.
She also bought me a subscription to Outdoor Life.
I am not aware of gun manufacturers wanting to do any thing but sell guns. They are happy to let us use a scope or iron sights.

I think the expectation is that you don't jump into buying and shooting a center fire while totally ignorant. Iron sights fall under air rifle basic training and use of .22 lr.
If you want a scope or not does not matter to the gun companies as long as their products support your choice. So nearly all modern rifles are designed to permit either iron sights or scopes.
In the 50s and earlier many rifles were not drilled for scope use.
Today they are all drilled but drilling for receiver sights is disappearing.
The gun companies do not care what you pick for sights as long as their rifles are not disqualified by the lack of sight mounting features.

[Three44s]

I'm still without the feeling in a couple of my fingers as the result of shooting stiff handloads of 296 powder and 320 grain bullets from a SBH and Dan Wesson. I think it depends on how many of them you shoot in a day.

I've never shot better than 3.5" with any rifle with iron sights. At a hundred yards, the sights on a SBH cover about 18" of the steel silhouette targets I shoot at. And yes, I use a 6 o'clock hold...

On the heavy revolvers I agree in principle. I am not interested in heavy loads full time. I do not figure my body would take it. The way I run them is by practicing lighter loads and on up to my bear stuffers at the last of the session. I want to be accomplished enough to get out of a scrape with a predator but not develop health issues from too much heavy load practice. And what gun writers missed telling prospective owners of these guns is that big bore revolvers are very adaptable.

As to iron sights, I am a big fan of appeture sights. They are not quite with a scope on paper but they have been shown repeatedly to be much closer to optics as far as accuracy is concerned than to rear leaf or buck horn sights.

Also the trimness and simplicity of a rifle without optics is a significant advantage.

Best regards

Three44s

[JSnover]

With so many options these days it's not worth getting all worked up, you can buy whatever you like.
'Way back then' it was a different story.
In C. E. Hagie's book "The American Rifle for Hunting and Target Shooting," (copyright 1946) he wrote that scopes were not at all suited for sporting rifles. They were delicate, poorly constructed, vulnerable to debris falling onto the lenses, prone to fogging and freezing, and not likely to stand up to rough handling they were likely to receive. In spite of that, scopes would continue to be used by big game hunters who like to spend lots of many on as many gadgets as can be mounted on a rifle. They provide that much more to talk about and brag about and coddle along on the hunting trip.

75 years later, I'm sure mister Hagie would be more tolerant of scopes on sporting rifles.

[country gent]

I have a flat top AR match rifle the riser rail is set up to mount a scope or my warner rear sight. ( both are repeatable on and off) My wife's AR flat top upper wears an rpa rear that clamps onto the dovetail. The flat top can be very versatile in actual use. My first flat top ar upper was a Armalite service rifle upper with a blemish I converted to a flat top.
When I was competing the M1A/M14 was the service rifle. You seldom seen ARs on the line. When the float tubes, heavy barrels, better triggers, vld bullets in heavier weights and the better rear sight it became competitive.
The one big thing that makes the aperture sights so accurate is the added sight radius they give. A modern scope mount may be 7.2" spacing and barrel length, action length dosnt matter, A modern hunting rifle with a 24" barrel may have a 16" sight radius, A modern rifle with 22 " barrel and receiver sight is around 28" sight radius, and a match rifle with 26" barrel can be 32"-34" between the sights. Towards the end I was using a 26" barrel and 10" bloop tube. The model 70 with 26" barrel and tube had almost a 40" sight radious. This took the warner from 4 clicks to the minute to 5 clicks per min. The longer sight radius makes sight alignment mush easier and less critical.
If you look at the older iron sighted rifles the rear sight was farther back or a receiver sight that included the length of the receiver. With the popularity of scopes rears sights were moved forward a couple inches to allow mounting and having both.

[shooterg]

Started with irons, started daughter and all nephews/nieces with aperture sighted .22' . Loved the M1A in the day, switched to AR. Now Service Rifle shooters in both CMP and NRA are allowed scopes !(up to 4.5X, 34mm objective). I can't see all that great with 68 year old damaged eyes, but I still like shooting the iron sights. Oughta be illegal to use glass unless you're over 70 ! lol

[bedbugbilly]

An AR as a starting out gun? Really?

It may be because I'm old . . . but too me, starting a person out with an AR is like starting a beginner to learn how to plow a field with a 10 bottom plow.

I'm sure that there are many iron sights out there . . . but learning to use them isn't brain surgery. My guess is that those that complain just don't have the ambition to google how to use iron sights with the fancy smart phone that is a permanent attachment to their hand.. . . . and I'm also guessing they are too busy or lazy to take a basic firearms safety class which would cover such things . . . especially if the AR is their "start out gun".

Geeeesh . . what ever happened to common sense?

[MaryB]

AR is great to transition kids form 22lr to center fire. The adjustable stock means I can fit it to them making it safer for them to shoot. All my nieces and nephews started on a Ruger 10/22 with only 1 round in the magazine. Once they learned safety and how to shoot properly I let them load 10 rounds. They all got a 10/22 from me at age 12! Every one is now a very safe and accomplished shooter and now have kids of their own who will need teaching in a few years...

Once they were proficient with 22lr they stepped up to center fire.

[crankycalico]

I have seen many many gun articles saying how this or that newest AR is the "greatest" tool for teaching new shooters. Cost of ammo, low recoil, are main factors in that I believe. And because it makes sales. for ARs. and because flat tops are ALOT cheaper off the shelf, it gives more sales for optics to boot.

No one seems to doubt the usefulness of a muzzle loader with open sights, wether inline or sidelock. But when it comes to center fire, they seem to suddenly forget how to tie their shoes from confusion.

[JSnover]

Since the AR is literally everywhere it makes sense to use that platform. All the instructors know the rifle, their students have at least seen them and most new shooters are eager to shoot them. If you sign people up for a basic firearms course - especially if it's oriented to home defense and start out with muzzle loaders you'll get more than a few puzzled looks.