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Texasflyboy
12-02-2005, 10:56 PM
This is a mold I picked up a few months ago and it’s been lying around gathering dust in the mold locker. Today I finally decided to try and cast some boolits with it, and here are the results:

http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/molds/20_2.jpg

I posted this photo on my Hensley & Gibbs page to replace the existing photo of the #20 mold.

This mold really worked well for me. After preheating, the first as cast bullets were formed perfectly, but the mold did tend to heat up quickly. I could get about seven to ten casts with it before it needed cooling. For curiosity, I did cast about 20 well into the frosting phase, and as expected, these were the narrowest weight range of all cast. I got 17 that weighed 165.1 +- 1 grains. The weights of the purty ones (shiny) ranged from about ~164.8~ to about ~165.6~ not bad for a two cavity mold.

I am looking for suggested starting loads for a Remington 03A3 two groove. I just ordered a new sizing die for my SAECO sizer so am ready to load.

I have on hand ample amounts of 2400 and WC 820 pull down from Jeff Bartlett's. From reading the old posts here, it seems that 2400 is favored, but would love some loads for WC 820 as I have quite a bit on hand.

Please post suggested starting loads with 2400 or WC 820 for the following:

1942 Remington 03A3 two groove 30.06
H&G #20 (165 grains)
Sized .311
Gas Check
LC Ball Cases (late 60's 1x)
Winchester LR Primer

Thanks in advance....

castalott
12-02-2005, 11:10 PM
I can't help you with any loads, but I am interested in how it shoots for you. It looks similiar to a Lyman 311413 to me. ( I have a single cavity mold) I've read it is a very dependable grouper at lower velocities. However your 2 groove barrel might stabilize it better than you think at higher speeds...

Oh, nice job of casting too....

Dale

Newtire
12-02-2005, 11:53 PM
First cast boolit I ever shot. This is the same as 311413. Worked fine with small charges of shotgun powder (Unique, RedDot, etc..about 10gr. in 30-06). Maybe you will have better luck with it than most other people at higher velocities.

Slowpoke
12-03-2005, 12:36 AM
This is a mold I picked up a few months ago and it’s been lying around gathering dust in the mold locker. Today I finally decided to try and cast some boolits with it, and here are the results:

http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/molds/20_2.jpg

I posted this photo on my Hensley & Gibbs page to replace the existing photo of the #20 mold.

This mold really worked well for me. After preheating, the first as cast bullets were formed perfectly, but the mold did tend to heat up quickly. I could get about seven to ten casts with it before it needed cooling. For curiosity, I did cast about 20 well into the frosting phase, and as expected, these were the narrowest weight range of all cast. I got 17 that weighed 165.1 +- 1 grains. The weights of the purty ones (shiny) ranged from about ~164.8~ to about ~165.6~ not bad for a two cavity mold.

I am looking for suggested starting loads for a Remington 03A3 two groove. I just ordered a new sizing die for my SAECO sizer so am ready to load.

I have on hand ample amounts of 2400 and WC 820 pull down from Jeff Bartlett's. From reading the old posts here, it seems that 2400 is favored, but would love some loads for WC 820 as I have quite a bit on hand.

Please post suggested starting loads with 2400 or WC 820 for the following:

1942 Remington 03A3 two groove 30.06
H&G #20 (165 grains)
Sized .311
Gas Check
LC Ball Cases (late 60's 1x)
Winchester LR Primer

Thanks in advance....

I have a article from 1922 (thanks again Floodgate) that calls that bullet the Squibb bullet after its designer Sam Squibb.

He recommends 11-16 grs of Duponts # 80 :)

Says it weighs 170 grs with 90% lead and 10% antimony including the gas check and is 1.060 in length.

They show a 100 yard machine rest target that is the well known 1 ragged hole and a mighty small one at that.

This same article shows a bullet called the Squibb - Miller, but it is a FN tapered plain base multi grooved design with a stop ring on the bottom band.

good luck

Char-Gar
12-03-2005, 10:11 AM
For some unknown reason I am fascinated by the Squibb bullet. It was designed by a Sam Squibb from Lima Ohio. In the days of yore, and enjoyed a steller reputation for accuracy. Every mold maker except Modern Bond produced a version this this bullet, As stated 311413 was the Lyman version. I have the Lyman, Cramer, Hensley % Gibbs, and Belding and Mull molds for this bullet.

Now to the confession...I have never fired one of these bullets down a rifle barrel. However, the word is these bullet perform best at low to moderate speeds and go wobbly when you get near the 1.8 fps range.

On of my project for the future is a detailed head to head work out of the various Squibb versions and come to closure on what this bullet will and won't do. There, I will watch this thread with interest and please keep us posted of your work with this bullet.

castalott
12-03-2005, 12:19 PM
Isn't the lack of nose 'bore' riding the reason that this bullet becomes canted in the bore and therefore is inaccurate at higher speeds? That is why I think the 2 groove may be some better. It 'may' support the bullet better... I also know I have read of guys getting 2 moa at 2000 fps with them too. What is the bc of this slug? Do you want a long(er) range bullet? Or you want a 100 yard paperpuncher?

I think Col Harrison thought it was a fine target bullet....

Dale

45 2.1
12-03-2005, 12:29 PM
The older handbooks quote this bullet as being good to 600 yards. In a rifle that likes it it is a good bullet.

Char-Gar
12-03-2005, 12:43 PM
castalott...I have heard what you mention as a negative about these ogival spire bullets. I can see how this could be true, but only in a rifle that is in someway crooked.

In rifle accuracy, straightness is the name of the game. The barrel need to be straight in the receiver and the case head when chambered straight with the breech face.The chamber and throat needs to be straight with the bore. The bullets need to be straight in the cases and so forth. This is why we want the bullet to fill the chamber throat. When things get crooked/canted accuracy takes a downturn. The whole notion is to start the bullet dead straight down the barrel.

Most military and sporting rifles have some degree of cant in them to one degree or another. Allot of money is spent on match rifles to make certain they are straight and tight in all the right places.

In a crooked rifle, a bore rider might have a slight advantage over an ogival spire. But with too much crookedness, even a bore rider will get wonky. On a straight rifle, a bore rider should not have any advantage in this regard over an ogival spire. At least that is the way my mind figures all of this out.

felix
12-03-2005, 12:47 PM
Charger, you said it correctly. Only thing additional to add, is to how to keep the sharper point of the boolit from sagging during acceleration. ... felix

castalott
12-03-2005, 02:23 PM
I think sagging durring acceleration is the model to consider. Granted, if it is not straight with the bore, the bullet metal doesn't have enough hardness to automatically straighten it.So a canted bullet remains that way.

All bullets deform in the first few inches ( of full power loads). Dr mann did an experiment where he started with a full lenght rifle barrel and military full metal jacket loads and cut an inch off every few rounds. At a few inches of length, the fmj's were changed into something unrecognizeable...literally blown out of shape. It is the barrel that helps keep things looking normal. That was an interesting experiment.. How that fits together with the observation that some fmjs don't fill the grooves...I have no idea...

I'm not saying this slug won't shoot. I have a vested interest in hoping it shoots great! I would even be interested in a 6 cavity..

But I do think all that weight on the nose ( I'm talking what is forward of the bore riding area) is unsupported at ignition. One will have to factor that in when loading this bullet.

I had my best success with the slow(est) powders. Those seemed to keep the pressures low and therefore lowered bullet deformation. This is my best guess......

Dale

Char-Gar
12-03-2005, 02:29 PM
Felix...I am talking theory here and you raised an exellent question. I would guess that "in theory", if the bullet was straight and tight in the barrel and "100 % concentric" the pressure during acceleration on the sharp nose would be equal all the way around and would keep the point dead center in the bore.

I am assuming that a harder alloy would help and a slower powder that shoved the bullet down the barrel instead of spanking it down the barrel would also be of help.

But the above is probably all theory and does not represent real world rifle, bullet molds and bullets. About all I know for certain from experience is these ogival spire bullets are very touchy and perform well only within certain perameters. In general they are PITA and not worth the effort.

However I am intrigued by the folklore around the Squibb bullets and stories of outstanding accuracy from the days of yore. Did those guys know something we don't or were they just playing "can you top this" in print.

Ahhh..the quest..it is all about the quest!

NVcurmudgeon
12-03-2005, 02:45 PM
Texas Flyboy, with my Lyman 31413 (same boolit) the go-to load of 16.0 gr. 2400 @ 1560 fps keeps them under 3" @ 100yd. Better is 9.0 gr. Green Dot, 1240 fps and 2" groups. My Springfield has a four-groove barrel. Others on this board have said that this boolit does better if velocity is under 1600 fps. I don't know, as I use longer, heavier RN boolits for higher speeds.

Maven
12-03-2005, 03:08 PM
All, This is what E.H. Harrison actually wrote about #311413:

"Has been more used than any other .30cal. cast bullet. Gives m.o.a. groups in the hands of skilled experimenters using carefully adjusted light charges. I have never obtained good shooting with medium or heavy charges from this bullet...and have never learned of anyone doing so. The long point, though desrable from the standpoint of exterior ballistics, is obtained by cutting away the sides of the forepart leaving it without support. The unavoidable result, with all charges but the lightest, is deformation and yaw of the bullet in the rifle bore (confirmed from recovered bullets) and consequent poor grouping." From "Cast Bullets," NRA 1982, p. 26

felix
12-03-2005, 04:20 PM
The real problem is that folks are not statistical in nature and allow emotions play a large role in their lives. So, what else is new, right? Statistically, pointed lead boolits don't shoot, and we all know it. Every once in a while, though, I can hit a very small target at 200 yards with my BR gun with a lead boolit while the wind is blowing 20 mph in gusts from atop of a car roof! Well, yes, I get emotional about such a feat, but print it? Well, yes, I just did. ... felix

Char-Gar
12-03-2005, 05:16 PM
My stock in trade is people and trying to help them live in a peaceful, happy and productive lives.

The biggest problem the human race faces is basing our decisions on and in our feelings. This is called "emotional reasoning". If I feel something, then my feelings must be based on reality..right? i.e., my internal feelings are an accurate representation the external reality...right? WRONG!

The vast majority of human angst can be trade directly or indirectly to somebody's emotional reasoning.

Whoever called us "homo sapiens" has his head up his wazoo. We are anything but.

We must factor this into all of the wonderful groups and super accurate guns that are thrown about in print and on the web. Somebody fires a great group or two and assumes that is the accuracy potential of his gun. Yea right! The bullets all ziged and zaged the same way for a couple of groups. Means nothing!

I read "emotionaly driven" stuff on the web all the time. Folks want me to belive that firearms have accuracyhpotential greater than their design can produce. When I read this stuff, I remember the old Texas saying..."Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining".

Bret4207
12-03-2005, 06:04 PM
Well said Chargar. But, if it wasn't for a little stubborn belief in a design and working the nicks n nacks out, the design might be abandoned. I'm sure that same stubborn belief has helped folks in more than ways than with just bullet casting and shooting. I just wish I could get them all to zig and zag the way I wanted. You're sure right on the "wall hanger" group being the Holy Grail though. Someone else recently posted here or at leverguns .com about the standard 3 and 5 shot groups used these days. Pope used 50-100 shots or more to see how things were going. I wonder if I'm honest enough with myself to try that? Might be a big disappointment.

Bass Ackward
12-03-2005, 06:12 PM
I am assuming that a harder alloy would help and a slower powder that shoved the bullet down the barrel instead of spanking it down the barrel would also be of help.

But the above is probably all theory and does not represent real world rifle, bullet molds and bullets. About all I know for certain from experience is these ogival spire bullets are very touchy and perform well only within certain perameters. In general they are PITA and not worth the effort.





Actually my best accuracy from spitzer designs comes with 14 BHN. It will hold from 1/2" to 1 1/2" up to 2600 fps and is devestating on ground hogs out to 400 yards.

Touchy amounts to bullet fit. If one uses a stock mold, finiky is more often the result. If a bullet is fit, it is suprising just how little bullet design makes any difference as long as strength is not affected and it is ballistically sound.

When a bullet fits, it works under multiple options. And invariably, one of those options will prove superior.

Char-Gar
12-03-2005, 07:18 PM
Tpr. Bret...my shooting mentors were guys who made trip to Camp Perry on an annual basis in the time between WWI and II. A group for testing accuracyh meant 10 shots. Five shot groups were used for sighting in. A three shot group was for a lever carbine whose POI started to walk after the barrel got heated.

When I have a load that looks promising, I still shoot ten shot group to fine tune. A couple of 5 shoot groups won't give enough information for me to work with.

NVcurmudgeon
12-03-2005, 07:21 PM
Y'all have hit the nail on the head regarding one group does not an accurate load make. About the third, consecutive, successful, multi-group, trip to the range with a promising load, over several weeks, I BEGIN to believe that I may have something there. Long ago, I learned to never talk about a new girlfriend or a good cast boolit load until either had been around for a while!

castalott
12-03-2005, 07:30 PM
quote: ( By Tpr. Bret)

'"Someone else recently posted here or at leverguns .com about the standard 3 and 5 shot groups used these days. Pope used 50-100 shots or more to see how things were going. I wonder if I'm honest enough with myself to try that? Might be a big disappointment."

That's a fascinating statement...because it is so true! I opened a case of zv-69 7.62 ball one time and printed a 5 shot group at 100 yards from my Ruger heavy barrel. An honest sub MOA group ..just as pretty as you please.... Never got close again...2.5 moa was a GOOD day after that... If I had shot a 20 round group that day, I would have know a lot more that day!

I would hate to guess, but I think a lot of our 2 moa loads of 5 rounds might turn into 5 or 6 moa loads of 10 or 20 rounds...I would like your opinions on this...

I would rather have a very constant/ any day/any way 2 moa performer than something that prints an occasional .5 moa group and the rest at 4 moa...

2 moa is 6 inches at 300 yards....any shot would be 1.5 inches from point of aim...and the majority would be bunched in the center, I suppose...

300 yards would be a long, long shot for ME in field conditions... Yes, i've shot iron rams at 500 meters...but the 'kill' zone is the whole ram. But few actual targets are near this size...

Ok...sorry for the rant....

Dale

Bret4207
12-03-2005, 07:56 PM
Dale, no apology needed. What you point out is so very true. I once had a '71 Roadrunner with a built 383 and 4 speed. I don't recall the exact time, but I turned in 1 real hot 1/4 mile run on my first try. Never came within a second of that first run again no matter what I tried. Same has happened with various guns and other things. I'll go for the nice round 1 1/2" group at 50 yards with my Savage 32WCF bolt gun over the occasional 3/4" groups at the same range. With my 22-250 I need consistant groups at a given velocity for up tp 300 yard shooting (condom). I'll take the 1" group that does it all the time over the mircale group every now and then. With handguns it''s even more of a factor I think. I shot one unbelievable 50 round target during range qualifications one year with my issue Glock and issue Speer Gold Dot ammo. 50 rounds would have been covered by a cereal bowl. For an issue Glock with a so called "New York trigger" ( something like 11 pounds) off hand thats not too shabby. Haven't come close since. BUT, I kept the target to show all our noobie college edumacated recruits. When they see that target displayed in a casual, offhand manner they usually look at the cranky old guy with a new respect. Hey, I ain't got good looks or a winning personality, so I gotta use what I can! But I'm not fooled into thinking I can do it at will. Same with some of my cast boolit projects. I have a great load for some guns, mediocre loads with others and some I may never find a really good load for. Still, I have either faith or a stubborn streak that keeps me believing that I can tweak a boolit and load to get me to a satisfactory level, if not the hoped for level, of accuracy.

castalott
12-03-2005, 08:31 PM
Those guys that can and do shoot small groups on a regular basis have my respect. But it is too frustrating to me. There was a time that any centerfire rifle HAD to shoot moa or it found a new home...But what made that rifle so wonderful on the bench made it a lot less so in the field... I still love bolt guns but also have a warm place for quick handling lever guns. Frank Llyold Wright agrees with me ( LOL) that form follows function!

StarMetal
12-03-2005, 08:38 PM
Tpr Bret

Mopar man in your younger days huh hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Only Mopars us Chevy guys feared were the 426 Hemi's and the the 440's. They could be beat however, but were darn good running engines. Frankly I use to dust off 383's quite easy with built 327 smallblocks. Roadrunners were large heavy automobiles too by the way. Same with Dodge Chargers. I heard Dodge or Chrysler has out some rear wheel drive new honest to goodness old 60's type muscle car with a big hemi in it....cool. Chevy needs to get off it's butt and come out with a muscle something new.

Joe

felix
12-03-2005, 09:02 PM
Joe, you would be impressed to ride in a car with an electric motor. No limiting governor, of course. Three Baldor engineers and I rode in one, built incognito in Tulsa with a Baldor 8 HP DC, mounted in a front wheel drive fashion. Squalled tires almost constantly around a large city block. Out of juice within one mile, though. Took four hours to recharge the trunk full of batteries. Torque gallore, and immediately as expected. Car was a conventional Toyota, gutted just enough to install the motor and a direct drive tranny with only two gears, a la Chevy Powerglide. ... felix

Bret4207
12-03-2005, 09:44 PM
Joe, just to set your mind at ease the Roadrunner was bought as a way to get more $$$ to put into my '70 Chevelle Super Sport 396 (402). I sold it at a tidy profit that allowed me to rebuild the SS. Today I'd be hard pressed to do the same since the Roadrunner was near stock body and interior-wise and not a hint of a ripple or speck of rust on it. The body, interior and paint were perfect. The engine had a hotter cam and a built Holley 850. The SS was rusted, lacking original seats, has a lot of plastic on it and was missing emblems and such. The 396 ate pistons on a regular basis and was replaced eventually with a 454. But, I was in love with the Chevelle body style. The SS replaced my '68 Chevelle Malibu, which replaced my '64 Corvair. Today I'd grab the Roadrunner in a heartbeat. It'd be worth as much or more. Heck, I'd give a good price to have the stinkin' Corvair or my Sunbeam Alpine back! That little Sunbeam was a hoot!

Man, are we getting off track.

castalott
12-03-2005, 10:35 PM
Wow..we are birds of a feather...I had a 69 Z28....Tons of fun. I never raced it...I couldn't afford to get in trouble...( It also had 3.56 gears -too high for serious acceration)

But I had lots of friends ( everyone had a hot rod) that raced all the time. Most of my friends had small block, 4 speed Camaros. Small block Camaros ruled in my area except for that 'one' 425 horse 396 with 4.88 gears ( yes, they did make them). No one could touch him.... That thing would go... He could drive it too... Found out years later that the local drag racer had blueprinted it & sold it to this guy...It ran better than the 427's I rode in.....this thing outran them all....

327 would be my choice of small blocks...396 my choice of big blocks..

26Charlie
12-04-2005, 01:10 AM
The lyman 311413 was my first mould back in 1955. With 14.5 gr. 4227, tire weights alloy, I once shot a 9-shot raggedy one-hole group, with a tenth shot 2" away at 100 yds prone, .30-'06 Springfield with 26" Ace target barrel and Lyman aperture sights.
Generally, the average was probably 2 to 2 1/2 inches, and the charge could be from 14.0 to 16.5 gr. of 4227, although if hard linotype metal were used the charges could go higher.
The same Squibb design was made in .270 and 8mm by Lyman. The .270 shoots reasonably well with 14.0 gr 4227, same as the .30-06, and the 8mm I have used in the .32 Remington rimless with reasonable results out of a M81 semiauto, using enough 4895 or 2460 to give near 2000 f/s and function the action OK.
The .270 Squibb weighs about 135 gr., the .30 caliber weighs about 170 gr., and the 8mm weighs about 200 gr. They are all the same profile and are proportionately dimensioned. Your H&G #20 is almost exactly like the Lyman 311413.

Bullshop
12-04-2005, 01:32 AM
26Charley
They must have made it in 25 cal too. I have two identicle one an Ideal and one a Herters. Also have one of unkown origin that looks to be Saeco but no name. The might be Saeco is different in that it has a full diameter straight section in front of the crimp groove and is a plain base. I have not tried any of them myself as I have no 25 cal platform. That will change soon as I can get to town for some cutting oil. Have everything needed to put together a 257 Roberts accept cutting oil to do the .050" finnish on the chamber.
BIC/BS

BruceB
12-04-2005, 02:32 AM
My fastest 'ride' of record was a 1970 W-30 Olds 442, the W-30 being the "factory blueprinted" version of their 455 engine. This was a limited-production version intended to qualify it for certain NASCAR races of the day, where a minimum of 500 cars had to built to qualify the type for racing. It had 3.91 limited slip and the Muncie M22 4-speed, black on black, and we had to burn a mixture of pump premium gas and 100/130 octane aviation gas to prevent knocking in the 11:1 compression....100/130 avgas was 59 cents per Imperial gallon (1.25 US gallons). Of course, the car itself was $4600, delivered.

We special-ordered this car in September '69 and took delivery just a few days before Christmas. For a small town in the Arctic, Yellowknife had a very well-off young population due to high incomes in the gold mines, and most of the great musclecars were represented locally....including a Plymouth Superbird, which was the droop-nosed, high-spoilered NASCAR knockoff. Our 442 chewed up everything and spit 'em out...

*****************************

Since taking up intensive casting for rifles, I've come to rely on ten-round groups for most testing, for the reasons already stated here in this thread. Ten round groups drastically increase the likelihood of a "real" evaluation of a load's accuracy and give me a lot more faith in the results I get. The monetary investment is very small, compared to testing jacketed loads with ten-rounders, and I see no downside to shooting the longer strings.

Certain firearms don't lend themselves to this, and I do try to take individual factors into account when testing. Comments above apply mostly to bolt actions but that M1A is sure getting interesting.

waksupi
12-04-2005, 02:38 AM
castalot, I believe in our little world here, most of us use a ten shot group to establish a standard for a particular load.

Bret4207
12-04-2005, 09:38 AM
A thank you to the posters who ID'd Mr. Squibb. I was always under the impression that the "Squibb" name was in reference to a light or squibb load. I wonder which came first- the Squibb bullet or the squibb load?

As to the minor subject in this thread- I think 1970 was the top year in muscle car design. Everybody had good ones out then. 2 years later it was pretty much done.

One more OT note. In about 1979 or early 1980 my buddy and I visited his parents in north eastern PA over a weekeknd. We drove my SS up from NC where we were stationed. As we stood on the porch of his parents little cross raods store, we heard a rumble coming from down the foggy road. As we stood looking down the road out of the fog came an orange or red Super Bird doing maybe 35 mph. It just drove by slowly and disappeared again into the fog. It was spooky and thrilling at the same time. The beer may have heightened the moment, but it sure stuck with me. What a car!

Jumptrap
12-04-2005, 01:15 PM
As we stood on the porch of his parents little cross raods store, we heard a rumble coming from down the foggy road. As we stood looking down the road out of the fog came an orange or red Super Bird doing maybe 35 mph. It just drove by slowly and disappeared again into the fog. It was spooky and thrilling at the same time. The beer may have heightened the moment, but it sure stuck with me. What a car!

As I recall, it could have only been orange or that funky green...as these were the only colors they offered it in. Maybe I am mistaken. When I was in college, there an orange Super Bird in town...this was circa spring '76. Then htere some cat on campus with a gold '62 Pontiac Bonneville with a 421 HO....I wanted that car! The Super Bird was out of reach even in those days and at close to $100K now for a straight one.....don't think I'll ever own one:).

Joe mentioned the new Hemi's......well, they don't have the cubes like yesteryear....something like 355 and then there is the 6.1 version..about 380 cubes. Claim about 425 ponies for the latter.......never seen any torque figures posted. Go down and test drive a Charger....doesn't cost anything. There's a black one on the lot right now close to home....just wait a year or two...they'll offer a 2 door version...now if they bolt on a supercharger and bump the displacement to 400+....no supercar from yesteryear will touch one. May not now, they run better than you think.

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 01:32 PM
Jump

You have your numbers mixed up there. Chrysler indeed does have the bigblock hemi back out. In fact you can buy a new 426 if you want.

Are you felllows talking about the racing Superbird, the one with the big rear fins and stablelizer? The one where Chrysler had to make so many rare street versions to be legal to race them? If so, I've only seen them in white and light blue. My now deceased first cousin was a PA Trooper and he came over to the house one day to question me. He said two officers were out on the PA Turnpike one night at 3:00 am on a lonely long straight stretch with a radar set up. He said that they said a light blue flash went by and the radar said 210 mph!!!! He wanted to know if that was possible and if so what kind of car was it. I said did it have a wedge nose and big airplane type rudder and stablelizer. He said well they never seen it approaching but did see the rear and there was that big fin. Yup, the Chrysler street race version and yes it would do that doo with high enough gears and a long run.

The Chevy 396
In my opinion this was one awesome big block and ran totally out of what is should have for the size. Yes they sure ran good.

Joe

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 01:37 PM
Trp Bret

Indeed the SS 70 series Chevelles were top muscle cars. It was asked of the automotive industry what car had the most radical performance engine ever put on the road. First one that came to mind was the very first Boss 302 Mustangs. They had the largest intake valves (for size of engine) of any production car and a very very very eratic performance cam. In fact the engine was so eratic that Ford downsized both the valves and cam the next model. But...then the very rare 70 SS Chevelle with the totallly aluminum special high performance 454 was mentioned. I believe there were only like 12 of them made. Any ways GM listed the horsepower at a conservative 450 for insurance purposes and Hot Rod magazine dyno-ed one in the vicinty of 750 horsepower. That was their pick of the most eratic street engine ever produced.

Joe

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 01:45 PM
You motorheads might find this page interesting. Look also at the new Dodge Challengar 2009, I hemi engine rear wheel drive car to compete with the Mustang.

The colors here are orange, green, and yellow.

http://www.stockmopar.com/plymouth-superbird.html

Joe

Edited: Only seven colors were available on the SuperBird: Alpine White, Lemon Twist Yellow, Limelight Green, Blue Fire Metallic, Petty Blue, Tor-Red and Vitamin C Orange. A couple of SuperBirds, probably specially ordered by Chrysler insiders, left the assembly line with Burnt Orange Metallic paint.

Bret4207
12-04-2005, 02:48 PM
Joe- If we were comparing stock hp vs weight I'd say the Sunbeam Tiger would be near the top. A 351 Cleveland in an 1750 lb. car spells scoot!

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 03:18 PM
Remember those little boxy Renaults back in the 60's? I saw one of those either in Puerto Rico or Jamiaca that had a 389 Pontiac sitting dead center int the middle of the cab area. I remember my friend and I commenting on how we wouldn't like to be sitting that close to a motor.

Joe

waksupi
12-04-2005, 03:39 PM
The fastest I ever went on a public highway, was in one of the Superbirds. We hit 235 mph. That was plenty fast enough for me!

Jumptrap
12-04-2005, 07:03 PM
Joe,

In all the time I have been here......never have have got in a pissing contest with you because it inevitably goes on forever. So, having been shopping for a new Charger for the last 2 months and looked at every damned brochure Dodge puts out.......NEVER EVER have I seen any mention of a true big block reincarnation of the venerable 426 Street Hemi offered. In fact, this new 5.7 and 6.1 Hemi..isn't even a true Hemi as we knew them. As there is approximately 60 cubic inches per liter.......the 6.1 high performance version is a tad over 360 C.I. It has no cylinder cut out function like the 5.7 and a whole bunch of other special parts the 5.7 doesn't have....especially, no plastic intake (yuck!).

The Hemi of yesteryear would never make the pollution standards today. I'd love to have an orignal 426...who wouldn't? But I don't think we're gonna ever see it in original form ever again. More than anything else, i'd love to see the pushrods gone and dual OHC's added.

But, if you have information on a factory offered option of a genuine 426 street Hemi.....I sure would like to see it.

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 07:25 PM
Jump,

I can't possibly in any conceivable way on earth see this as a pissing contest, and I assure you it's not going to be one. Did you check that website out I posted and see the Challenger proposed for 2009? Know where I got wind of that car? From my Frankfurt, Germany Chevy Motorhead friend by the name of Ralf. He has Chevyitist worse then any of us Americans. That car is suppose to be hemi powered and rear wheel drive.

Ok, on the hemi's. In the racing world, whether parts are enviromental friendly or not, you can buy them. They (Chrysler) are selling the old hemi blocks and parts new. If you're that interested I'll do some heavy digging and see what I can come up with pardner. I should have figured you a Mopar man liking JoHn Deere tractors har har har.

Let me do some research for you.

Get a good supply of beer incase we have to do a pissing contest har har har.

Joe

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 07:37 PM
Jump,

Try this site http://www.campbellenterprises.com/hemi-engine-parts/426-hemi/mopar-performance-hemi-parts.htm

for new original 426 Hemi parts.

Joe

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 07:46 PM
Jump

Here's an official Mopar site for the hemi engine and parts including the block.

http://www.mopar.com/m_perf_subCheck.jsp?SubGrpID=23&dummy1=1133739896682

Joe

Bret4207
12-04-2005, 08:29 PM
235mph? Hmmmm, I wonder how I would catch that car in my Econoline van that tops out a 95mph? And might I ad 95 is pretty shaky if there's a breeze.

Jumptrap
12-04-2005, 08:34 PM
Joe,

I'm not talking about stuff being available to the race circuit...like Chey crate motors...I'm talking about what's under the hood, here and now, on the car lots.

The 6.1 they have in the Dodge RT or whatever thy call it, sounds like the cat's meow and who knows...it may be even better than the old big blocks.....wind up like a small block and have good heads with huge valves. I can't see dropping $40 grand to burn rubber though. Now, for a traffic demon...I'd love it. Nothing I hate anymore than to get balled up in traffic following some old bastard in a coma going 48 in the passing lane. Then there's the hot babe in her Z28 with her Foster Grants on, her hair blowing in the wind with that 'kiss it' look plastered all over her Maybelline face. Blow their damned door handles off and have screen wire over the twin exhaust to keep from sucking them up the tailpipes as I go by at 110. Of course, you always have to worry about our local rendition of Bret getting pissed off and feeling all official as he chases you down in his Ford LTD....LOL! It's okay to officially haul ass, but not for anybody else....you know, we might kill some innocent. If the innocent would keep their ass off the road.....they wouldn't have to worry about getting ran over...HAR!

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 09:25 PM
Tpr Bret

You would use a helicopter to catch someone at 235 mph.

Joe

45 2.1
12-04-2005, 09:28 PM
Can't outrun a radio Joe.

StarMetal
12-04-2005, 09:30 PM
Jump,

Well I kinda got my car. In the lower basement garage is my 1961 Impala two door hardtop with a 350 cu in smallblock rated at about 400 hp. This coupled up to a Borg Waner Super T10 four speed from out of a big block Pontiac Firebird and it's topped off with a Hurst V-Gate shifter. For those of you that know what those shifters are, they are an inline 4 speed manual transmission shifter, yup that's right, inline, forward 1st gear, straight back 2nd gear, straight forward again 3rd gear, and back once again for fourth gear. Rear has a separate lever. No H-pattern shift here. These actually make a four speed manual faster then an automatic and that's been proven.

Wife is trying to get me to sell the car and said if my son gets it she wants a governor on the engine har har har.

Well Jump let's look for an old Mopar muscle car for you.

Joe

felix
12-04-2005, 09:43 PM
Bret would use a helicopter, I would use a roadblock with NO way around it. Now, in the desert, I wouldn't care, but would take a picture of the plates/car via copter and mail a bill as a ticket. ... felix

floodgate
12-04-2005, 11:07 PM
Guys:

I've sorta lost track of this thread. How many cubic inches is a "Hensley & Gibbs #20"? And is it made by Ford, Chrysler or GM? If you convert 235 mph to feet per second, it comes out to 325 fps., which is not all that impressive; I can beat that with my Sheridan peenumatic.

floodgate

waksupi
12-04-2005, 11:51 PM
Back then, and in those days, you would have to look hard and long for an LEO on the highways of SE Iowa. And the long stretches of road, where you could see ten miles straight ahead, was a real plus!

Bret4207
12-05-2005, 07:20 PM
A heli-whut? You guys obviously aren't familiar with the NYSP. We're still waiting for the last keg of horseshoes to arrive!