8mm Custom is in - Test cast results [Archive]

Oldfeller

12-03-2005, 12:11 AM

You aren't even going to ASK your group if they want the undersized molds?

(I am assuming the nose and the bands are actually out of print)

Last time we had a LEE screw up of this large magnitude LAR 45 asked the group what they wanted to do.

Some wanted the molds as is .....

Some said "send mine back to have it corrected" .....

Point being, this is a decision that should be made by the mold buyers, NOT just Bob nor the Honcho.

Since we NEVER were permitted to see the finished toleranced bullet drawing, we now don't even know if we have a leg to stand on to send it back to LEE if you do ship it to us. We still don't have a posted drawing nor a physical copy of the drawing (although I asked both of you for one, I never got one).

How about you post the final toleranced drawing now? Now that we are all pregnant, I think it is time to see what we got for "protection".

Oldfeller

(and I AM actually being nice -- done been here myself and have quite a bit of sympathy for a first time Honcho what got himself LEE'ed)

When you post the final drawing, you might also want to show where you told them to fit it with WW metal -- this sort of "undersized all over" tends to come from LEE fitting the slug using linotype metal (just speaking from sad experience, not having seen the final drawing or anything).

mike in co

12-03-2005, 02:02 AM

i understand the question about asking the buyers, but in my case i just want it now....lol 325 is fine with me!
chit it will empty my pot so quick...figure this 6 cav, a 6 cav 311407, and a 4 cav 311359 all at the same time....i need a pot to fill my pot......hmmmm turkey burner with 50 lbs at temp...4 pound ladle...

Oldfeller

12-03-2005, 02:44 AM

Send mine back to be corrected to the print, the nose is too small to engage my worn rifling origin properly.

Oldfeller

Maineboy

12-03-2005, 08:15 AM

Dutch, I'll take mine as is. I trust it will work fine in my Mausers. Thanks for honchoing this group buy.

Bodydoc447

12-03-2005, 09:23 AM

I'll take mine as is. Thanks for the Honcho effort. It is appreciated.

Doc

mroliver77

12-03-2005, 09:58 AM

I am glad I opted out of this one. It would work for my one "Unissued" Mauser but way too small for the other five. Mebbe I was better off before I had the dimentions of my chambers. Naa. Jay

Cayoot

12-03-2005, 10:41 AM

The 8mm custom molds arrived on Tuesday the 29th. I broke one out and mailed it to 45 2.1 asking him to do a test cast and advise his findings. Here is what he found:

Bands measured at .325"
Nose at .318"
Perfect snap fit of Hornady gas check.

Original dimensions on the drawing sent to Lee were bands at .326" and nose at .320." Bob tells me he thinks this is the best we're gonna get out of Lee on this one and I trust his advice.

I plan to start mailing out the molds on Monday the 5th.

A dissapointment to say the least.

Char-Gar

12-03-2005, 10:51 AM

Oldfeller has raised an issue that we probably needs to be discussed as we continue on with the Lee custom mold thing.

When a couple of fellows do the work and produce detailed mechanical drawings for a custom bullet, that work is their "intellectual property". It may or may not have any commercial value down the line, but who knows. If the detailed mechanical drawings are published on the web, it is out there for anybody to lift and use.

Lee is sent the drawing with the understanding the drawing is to be used to produce molds for this one order. Lee can't then decide they like the bullet and add it to the line without permission or payment. There is nothing wrong with folks wanting to protect their work, by not posting the detailed specs. Line drawings are published, but not the detailed spec.

Now what happends when the molds are droped off at the front door of the Honcho? If then becomes his responsibility to determine if Lee held the line on the specs. I for one would not accept work that was not within spec. but would be my call.

When we sent the specs to Lee on 311407 Mod. the tolerances were +/- .001 on the length, nose and bands. The length was 1.000, the nose and first two bands were .301 and the rest of the body bands were .314.

I selected one mold and random and did a test cast. I used No. 2 alloy and the bullets cast out 1.000/.301/.314-.3145. As far as I am concerned was dead on.

However, as we know, alloy, temperture and casting methods will make a difference. Glen Fryxell was the first the cast with one of these molds and his bullets fell .300X.313. The bullets are still within tolerances, but his alloy was different from mind. He used a mix of 3 to 1, range scrap to linotype. I used double the amount of linotype and that probably accounts for the differences.
Glen is very happy and excited about this bullet.

The point of this whole post is, it is the Honcho's call as to whether or not the molds are up to snuff. There is no formal job discription for mold Honchos, but IMHO the foregoing should be part of one. Trying to arrive at a consensus from a group of folks spread out all over the world would be like trying to hurd quail.

Now, I expect when the 311407 Molds hit the lead pots of the folks, there will be a variety of sized of bullets cast. That is just the way of it, but the molds are in spec.

45 2.1

12-03-2005, 12:25 PM

Point being, this is a decision that should be made by the mold buyers, NOT just Bob nor the Honcho.

I just told him my opinion and i'm keeping mine. We have never got a better mold after sending them back to date.

Since we NEVER were permitted to see the finished toleranced bullet drawing, we now don't even know if we have a leg to stand on to send it back to LEE if you do ship it to us. We still don't have a posted drawing nor a physical copy of the drawing (although I asked both of you for one, I never got one).

No and your not gonna, because you rip them off for your own purposes. Draw your own up, you've said your capable. All the pertinent diameters were quoted in the threads about it.

How about you post the final toleranced drawing now? Now that we are all pregnant, I think it is time to see what we got for "protection".

Get a grip, you don't get that when you buy any commercial mold.

When you post the final drawing, you might also want to show where you told them to fit it with WW metal -- this sort of "undersized all over" tends to come from LEE fitting the slug using linotype metal (just speaking from sad experience, not having seen the final drawing or anything).

It was there with tighter tolerences than you put up on my scabbed drawing. LEE does fit them with linotype regardless of whats written it seems.

Cayoot

12-03-2005, 12:32 PM

Well, if you guys think that this is as good as we can expect, then I vote that we recieve our molds so that we can start trying to shoot them. I'm sure that if someone has a firearm that can't shoot the boolit due to the different deminsions, he will be able to sell it here to someone else.

It seems like there is always someone who missed out on every mold deal and looks for any extra.

So I vote that we get our molds now.

Just my $.02, but after inflation.....it is probably about a .$.01/2 :bigsmyl2:

45 2.1

12-03-2005, 12:48 PM

When this started out Dutch wanted to copy the LEE 8mm bullet as is. Its dimensions were 0.3245" on the bands and a 0.312" nose. Jr just posted his 8mm slug dimensions with a 0.3235" bore and nose at 0.313". The group buy bullet is 0.325" bands and 0.318" nose. That looks like quite an improvement to me that will probably fit most of the tighter bore rifles. Bore diameters aren't what the throat will take either, those things are about 70 years old or more with alot of use. The 32 special guys just might have a bullet to use too.

Dutch4122

12-04-2005, 12:48 AM

First of all I want to apologize to everybody for not getting back to this thread sooner today. I'm not ignoring what has happened today with this discussion. I had a 12 hour work day followed by some family business that had to be taken care of after work. That's why I'm finally responding to this thread so late. Not making excuses, just trying to explain.

So far we have 5 members who want their molds shipped, 45 2.1 says he is going to keep his, and one who says ship it back to Lee to be corrected.

What about the other 26 buyers? This place and Handloads.com was the only two sites I posted this group buy.

So, what do the rest of you have to say?

-Matt

P.S. Contrary to what some may think here; I've grown a thick enough skin to accept my share of criticism. No need to hide behind anybody else or be treated like a 10 year old who'll go running to mommy if somebody is mean to him. So say what you think and don't feel like you have to play nice. I want to know exactly what the entire group thinks of this group buy, how I've handled it, and what I need to do to make it right.

Oldfeller

12-04-2005, 01:12 AM

Dutch4122,

If you have someone that is asking you for a mold and can use the nose diameter as-is, collect a check from them and ship them mine. Or send me a detailed finished "on paper" paper copy of the drawing and I'll go fight it out with LEE as a print non-conformance and I'll make them recut it correctly. But don't you dare ship me a non-conforming mold without a full detailed paper drawing with it for me to have to go back at LEE over a non-conformance.

================================================== ==

I won't be trying to fix it by lapping it, I haven't had all that much consistent luck bringing entire bore rider noses out evenly & flatly over any great amount of increase diameter (even on single cavity molds) so I really don't want to try to fix this one, not at six cavities coming out .002" undersize each cavity. Plus bringing out the bands too. Too too much work.

By the way -- by your own admission this mold makes bullets that are OUT OF PRINT. You guys really should not be trying to force folks to take them and then resell them as nonconforming goods over to other folks to get rid of them. This seems wrong to me.

Refusal to post or provide the finished drawing at this point, well, it leaves you open to folks having to wonder "why" as it leaves the buyers no recourse to go back at LEE for an out of print condition. This seems wrong to me, especially since we know there is variation within the LEE mold runs and you are not casting off of each mold to really know what your are dealing with before you ship it.

Bob, you seem to think now that anything you create for a honcho or a group is "yours" and you are going to keep it a deep dark secret, even from the purchasing group, even when it goes off to the bad on them. This seems wrong to me.

As far as me correcting your drawings in the past, it always griped you somewhat but it was necessary to get the stuff ordered at minimum risk to the group. And I always had to do it.

As far as "scabbing your drawings" for anything that you did for a group buy that I honchoed, I think I am totally not-guilty. You knew it wasn't going to be a secret when you provided it. You knew it was going to be hashed out by multiple postings and long discussion threads and CHANGED REPEATEDLY. You knew this, up front -- going in. You might be pissed at me right now, but you have always known where I was coming from on this issue.

BTW, the stuff on Midsouth is there under a joint drawing control block (you and me) and you could yank it with a phone call just as quick as I can. That was our agreement at that time, right? As far as modifiying the base drawings instead of spending a bunch of time arguing with you to get you to do it -- yep, I'm guilty of that, I had to do it every time as I recollect. You are a stubborn old cuss (but then so am I, so what else is new?).

Mainly, if you will remember, when you sent me those drawings electronically you didn't even detail all the non-critical dimensions, but told me you expected me to do it from the raw CAD using my AutoCAD lite (geometry which was always well drawn and spot on -- nobody ever said you didn't do good CAD because you do excellent CAD geometry). At the time I considered it a division of labor and didn't worry too much about it.

Your increasing wish for secrecy has become a dividing point between us, so I guess we are divided.

If you want me to not use the 7mm Soup Can drawing because you made up the grandfather El Longo version of it and posted it on the web back then as a bit graphic (which was snatched and run with since then most likely) which you then ... on your own without any request from me ... reposted the same bit graphic more recently as an open bit graphic for me to use on the start thread for the 7mm Kurtz or even if you wish to pull all the Midsouth drawings you had a hand in (which apparently have been snatched and turned into 338 or possibly bigger bullets by somebody -- Jr sure has gotten a mold of one of such by mistake) all it takes is a phone call from you directly to them. The control block use statement clearly says so, right? The guy's name is Chris Painter and the phone number is 1-800-272-3000.

But let me be clear, this drawing secrecy **** is totally destructive to group endeavors and I won't be participating in it in ANY manner beyond this point. And going back to the 7mm soup can subject, the only dimensions that are the same as El Longo are the meplat size, nose radius and the width of the grooves and width of the bands. Everything else is different due to open group discussions and CHANGES made due to that discussion -- it got better because of group input and it reflects more guns and fits more needs. And wasn't that a copy of a Guy Loverin bullet design to begin with, anyway ????

But if it offends your sense of secrecy, consider it removed.

No more secrets with me, ever.

Kelly Alexander

Calamity Jake

12-04-2005, 01:41 AM

I say, pick four more molds out of the group, prep em and cast with em in #2 and WW, mic em and post the numbers. If they are as good or better then the first one, then I will take my as is. I for one don't think Lee can rework em, they would have to remake em, I don't think they will do that.
Just my 2 cents.

Buckshot

12-04-2005, 03:53 AM

.............Charger, ".....Lee is sent the drawing with the understanding the drawing is to be used to produce molds for this one order. Lee can't then decide they like the bullet and add it to the line without permission or payment."

AH! If you check the Custom Mould info sheet Lee sends, it states quite clearly that if they so choose, they reserve the right to produce the design for retail sale. I would suppose they would credit the name on the print as the designer, as they did Harris for the two 7.62x39 moulds.

As for THIS mould and it's finish diameter, it will work for me. So in that case I ask that mine be sent to me.

When Wally Bator and I worked up the drawing for my 'Heavy 8" there was a bit of conversation over the .318" nose, and would it be worthwhile at that size or not.

http://www.fototime.com/982F406A87D7DAC/standard.jpg
As may be seen in the photo, seated out the .318" nose AND the .320" front band engraved. Seated shorter with the GC just below the neck the .318" nose still engraved. Of course this was in MY rifle (Turk M38). The .326" band diameter was picked as being a usefull size to fit most all 8mm's out there. Happily enough the production moulds were produced 'to print'.

In my Turks (M88/14/35, 2 X M38, M38/46) I have to size the slugs to .323" in order to fit in the throat. Sized at .324" and the boolit is marked by the throat. Sized to .325" and you need a hammer to close the bolt. Done correctly this sizing is not detrimental to accuracy. Also it is a LOT easier to size down, then to bump up :D

So far as the design prints are concerned, I personally do not understand the contention involved. I personally would not be upset if someone were to take the "Heavy 8" design and produce it. But that's me, and my retirement isn't based on royalties collected from someone making further moulds from it.

http://www.fototime.com/C0FF51B58087E30/standard.jpg
This is a Loverin. What is unique about it? The dimensions? The nose shape, the length? Heck, it's a Loverin design yet we're not gonna pay Guy Loverins' offspring any royalty payments.

Just thinking for the moment, I can only recall 2 new design elements I've seen in cast boolits since I've been involved with them. One was Lyman's so called "Hi Velocity" 2 diameter design, and Walt Melander's 'DD' nose band. As I worked on the 8mm design it suddenly dawned on me that it was amazingly like the Lyman 2 diameter design, sans the little grooves on the nose.

These aren't breakthrough rocket fuel formulas, battery technology, mousetraps or the cure for cancer. I don't see anything truly unique so as to make them defensible in a court for monetary gain?

If I'm missing the point could someone please explain it to me? I've had the light bulb go on over my head before, once something noteworthy has been explained. Heck if it's something as simple as wanting name recognition I can understand that, but beyond that I'm at sea over the whole deal.

...............Buckshot

Char-Gar

12-04-2005, 08:17 AM

Buckshot...Lee's info sheet is not a contract. In order for a contract to exist there must be a "meeting of the minds". Contracts cannot be established by such print on an info sheet.

The laws on "intellectual property" have developed recently to do the high tech world we live in. We live in a time when "ideas" can have great commercial value. You no longer have to "copyright" anything, as that is given as a matter of law. You "thunk it"..and you own it. The problem is proving who thunk it first.

In our case, the spec sheet clearly indicates who thunk it first and explicitly denies Lee or anybody else the right to use those specs with permission.

Lee's boiler plate on their info sheet is legaly worthless. I am certain they know it. The law will not allow you to use for gain, somebody else's intellectual property against their express wishes, but adding a few words to an info sheet.

Going one step farther, the next paragraph on the Lee info sheet says

"Return this completed design assistance sheet to us and we will deisgn a bullet mold drawing and forward it to you for your approval...."

We don't do this. Lee did not produce a bullet mold drawing and had no input whatsoever in the design.

To add one more notion to the pot..should Lee or anybody decide to produce this bullet for commercial use, they just might have problems from Lyman who just might own the parent design.

Char-Gar

12-04-2005, 08:35 AM

Buckshot...I reread your post and wanted to add a little more. Intellectual Property law is not my field, but I think I can offer an opinion on the subject that is more than an uninformed guess.

The multi-band idea was not original with Guy Loverin. It was the way target bullets were made by generations of bullet makers before. The idea had long entered into the area of "public domain" before Loverin grabbed it.

When Guy Loverin took those public domain notions and used them to design a bullet down to the last detail, that became a "Loverin design" bullet and he owned the design. It would take an extensive legal search to know if one of his actual designs are still "propriatary" or have entered into the "public domain".

The fact that you take the concept of a multi-band bullet and apply it in a new way, might make the bullet "Loverin like" or "similiar to a Loverin" or "after Loverin", but it does not make it a Loverin design.

This is the reason, I refer to the multi-band 30 cal that just came from Lee as 311407 Modified and it has indeed be modified. Still I would have perfered to have given the bullet an entirely different name, but that didn't seem feasable in the confusion of putting the deal together.

Urny

12-04-2005, 09:44 AM

Dutch, the dimensions as cast with the sample mold are close enough to what I was looking for. Please send mine on (to me). I want to try this in my Steyr M95M with its' very tight chamber, neck, throat, bore and groove size. Strange barrel, especially for a 1920's military job. My Karabiner mold casts too large for it, and the 323470 a bit small.

Oldfeller

12-04-2005, 11:19 AM

Urny,

We worked the Steyr M95 8x56R rifles a while back and if yours is pre-WW1 standard dimensions or rearsenalled (re-rifled) to .330"-.331" bore wall diameter your new bullet isn't going to fit up very well on the initial loading.

However, some few old straight pull guns were reworked to 8x57 by the Nazis, if you got one of those --- you are a lucky fellow indeed as you got a brand new tall rifling barrel out of it. Of course, you may be talking about a modern commercial Steyr rifle and we are all just assuming old mil-surp straight pull because that is what we commonly talk about when we talk Steyr over here.

Buckshot, Chargar -- you take two different stances on the intellectual property thing. Hate to say it, but I have to agree with Chargar that anything that is a BRAND NEW idea or that gets copied in fine enough detail to be deceptive IS covered by new laws that are less than 2 years old. And you don't have to patent or copywrite to get the new law protections either. These laws were written to protect overseas rip-off of designer clothes, appliances, power tools and software, but a law is a law is a law.

Now I also agree with Buckshot that none of us can claim any rights to a Loverin-like anything unless it closely copies a Lyman design that is still in existence. By closely, I mean same numbers on same features.

Now, personally -- if something is given to a group to use, then you GAVE it to them (to use anyway they wanted to). To come back later claiming "secrecy" after the fact or saying it was a "scabbed" drawing, well ......

(silence)

I will mention that if Bob does decide to pull the drawings that he was involved with that were placed at Midsouth, you probably will lose more than just those 3 drawings. Although I am distressed that Midsouth has stopped displaying all the readable dimensioning and the intended use discriptions -- some people are going to buy those slugs with absolutely no idea what they were intended to fit -- I don't think I'd throw away that potential source avenue by pissing them off unnecessarily either.

Jr, if you want to sell me that strange mold you got in from Midsouth (should they inforce their snix snax no take backs custom cut rules) I'll give you $16.99 if you will pre-pay the shipping to me by cheapest US postal rate (non-insured). I'm that curious to see what they copied and try to figure out what they actually were trying to fit with it. Please check to see if either the box or the mold has a LEE part number mentioned on it because LEE does have a DOCUMENTED 8x56R bullet that is non-cataloged and that Midsouth sells and Midsouth or LEE may just have pulled the wrong red & white box off the shelf (a very simple shipping clerk error).

Jr., just PM me if you are interested in peddling a NON Lee marked custom cut mold that looks just like a Max or Karabiner (but is much fatter). Bullet has to be 1.100" inches long or longer to be a copy of one of our old designs. Shorter, looks kinda the same as a LEE 8mm -- it is LEE's Steyr bullet and I'm not interested in it, it doesn't fit anything worth doodly (too small on nose and bands).

Now, on one item Buckshot and I agree -- if somebody copied some of our stuff then it is a left-hand compliment to us and more power to them -- I really don't care about it in any negative fashion.

Oldfeller

Dutch4122

12-04-2005, 12:49 PM

Oldfeller, a refund (money order) will be in the mail to you 1st thing in the morning. I'm not concerned about finding another buyer or use for this mold. I understand that you would not want a product which you are not happy with shipped to you without the means to deal with Lee at your disposal; however, I also feel an obligation to respect Bob's wishes on not wanting the drawing going out. Given the circumstances I think that this is the only thing I can do.

Now, at this point I have 7 buyers who say that they want their 8mm custom molds shipped. I am going to honor their wishes and get those mailed out tomorrow.

How about the rest of you?

Junior1942

12-04-2005, 01:00 PM

I'll take one if there's an extra. But will that .318" nose work in my .313" bore? And what's the cast weight and how many holes? And what's the cost?

felix

12-04-2005, 01:10 PM

Junior, this might be a chance for you have some research fun. Take the mold and have Stillwell or another quality person make you some sizing dies (for nose first operations in this particular situation). Order a couple of these dies up front, one at .313 for sure, and another at .315. You can possibly use these dies later for a sloppy 30 cal gun, or at least you can pawn them on ebay. Best if you ship some boolits to Stillwell (or other) and tell them exactly what is needed. Just in case these guys get a wild hair and make the die not abrupt enough where needed, and not needed for the .325 area. ... felix

old goat

12-04-2005, 01:41 PM

...Dutch 4122,

...Please ship my mould "as is"....I really don't think LEE will be willing to accept a "partial" return. I'm thinking they would say all moulds were cut identical, and if some were accepted, then all should be acceptable.....But I really can't say what LEE will do.
...Also, thanks for being a man of integrity. Doing WHAT you say you will do, WHEN you say you will do it.

...old goat

porkchop bob

12-04-2005, 02:35 PM

I will take mine as is.

Due to the absence of a standard WW ingot, how can we expect Lee or anyone for that matter to conform. This may be the third post I have made on this issue. With a single quick reading, it appears that one of our 'inspectors' find the mold to be acceptable and another with a different 'WW' alloy did not.

Give Lee the detailed specs, maybe 100 pounds of certified WW alloy, and later have the honcho do the acceptance testing with some of the same certified WW alloy. If we are going to play in this game and expect to win, we all need to have the same set of rules and standards.

Until we do that, why bother returning the mold to Lee?

Bob

grumble

12-04-2005, 03:04 PM

Dutch, send mine as-is too. I'd like to cram the order down Lee's throat, but such things ain't likely to happen.

I don't know about anyone else, but I knew up front that I wouldn't get a spec'ed drawing when I sent you my check. That was part of the deal as I understood it. If complaints about the mold are going to cause you to come out in the hole due to refunds, please let me know, and I'll pay a pro-rata share to cover your loss. After doing all the work and putting up with the ********, you shouldn't be subject to a financial loss, too. I mean, we NEED suckers like you!! <GGG>

Willbird

12-04-2005, 03:23 PM

I'm saddened to read this, and it proves to me that the sleep I lost several times on group buys was for good reason. What dismays me is that I have sent in 3 so far, the first one had The same specs as the second, but somebody at Lee noticed the tight tolerence (because I highlighted it) and said they wouldnt do that (the infamous Pat) then I talked to Doug in the mold room and he said they COULD do it...and he talked to Pat and they DID do it. I think on the first buy they just plain ignored the tolerances on the print.

I also had prints in my hand and 452.1 said to not publish them, and I respected that wish, and will continue to do so, not to start a pissing match but if you don't agree with 452.1 terms yaal ought to draw your own bullets, or get somebody to do it on your terms.........plain and simple he does the work and it is his call, and your choice whether or not to ask him to do it.

I have gotten help and support from quite a few guys on here that have been Honcho's before, and I sure have appreciated it.......it is a very rewarding endeavor, but then somebody can bitch because $6.00 shipping is a buck more than it actually costs (they think your giving it to them in the pants I guess) and it can take lots of the wind out of your sails...now the folks that took time to say thank you to my wife for all the work she did on those buys....that put the wind BACK in our sails :-)

Bill

SharpsShooter

12-04-2005, 04:22 PM

I didn’t participate in this group buy, although I have an 8x57 that is begging for cast boolits. IMHO, I think if you order a custom item to certain specifications and don’t end up with those specs, then it’s time to find someone who is capable of producing what you are after. Certainly different WW alloys could account for dimensional irregularities and that would be tough to overcome from any manufacturer.

I’d much rather have a 2 cavity that produced correct boolits that a 6 that didn’t. Quantity is fun for plinking, but quality produces accuracy.

As far as the fuss over the drawings, everyone that buys a “group buy mould” should have a well defined paper drawing in order that they can take any problems to the manufacturer and get some satisfaction as to dimensional quality. The Honcho should not have to do that unless the entire run of moulds is fouled up. Look at it this way, if I have a sample boolit, it is not a difficult task to produce a drawing from measurements and market it as an “original” design. I don’t do that and I’m confident the participants of this buy don’t either. So what’s the problem?

grumble

12-04-2005, 04:37 PM

"So what’s the problem?"

Problem? There's no problem. The designer of the boolit said from the get-go that he wouldn't release the spec-ed drawing to the public. So, no drawing will be released. That was the deal going in, and that's the deal now.

SharpsShooter

12-04-2005, 04:41 PM

C A Plater

12-04-2005, 04:53 PM

I got it for a Yugo Mauser that is still in cosmoline and I believe it has a minty bore. It will be several months until I can play with it as I'm in the process of moving to Alabama permanently for a job. When I get out of the apartment and in a new house I'll start casting again and wait to be disappointed then if they don't shoot well enough.

StarMetal

12-04-2005, 05:06 PM

Plater,

I have an unissued Yugo 48B and you're right about the bore, mine is dead dead on .323.

Joe

Oh yeah, shoots unbelievable

grumble

12-04-2005, 05:09 PM

"Do you agree with that sort of method?"

Everybody who ordered a mold agreed with that sort of method. If they didn't, they wouldn't have ordered the mold.

If you meant to ask, "would I have preferred to get the spec'ed drawing?" then sure, that's what I would have liked. But we have a talented designer, and if he wants to protect his intellectual property, that's his right. And the honcho has been exceptionally accomodating, doing his best to please everyone, all without any chest beating or bragging.

I'm a bit ticked off that people are trying to interfere with the honcho's way of running this buy. I mean, HE is the honcho, and should run it as he sees fit. This is no way to treat someone (actually two someones) who volunteered to do us all a favor.

Betcha if Chargar were running this, the pot-stirrers would have kept their mouths shut -- this honcho is too nice a guy to respond in kind.

PS-- Sorry, Chargar. I've been chuckling at your snappy short temper since day one of your group buy. I like that you don't take any crap from folks. <GGG>

btr-cj

12-04-2005, 05:11 PM

You can send me mine.
It is bound to fit one of my mousers.

Thanks,

C.J.

grumble

12-04-2005, 05:23 PM

Are you trying to make a point, Joe? If so, you'd better be a bit more clear.

SharpsShooter

12-04-2005, 05:34 PM

If you meant to ask, "would I have preferred to get the spec'ed drawing?" then sure, that's what I would have liked.

Yeah that was my intended question. Lack of clarity on my part.

Mel-4857

12-04-2005, 05:55 PM

The size is close enough for anything I have. You can ship mine. Thanks for all your hard work. Mel

45 2.1

12-04-2005, 06:15 PM

Do you agree with that sort of method?

You are always welcome to honcho a mold deal yourself and get someone to draw it. Good experience and you better know what your doing or you will have a bunch of disgruntled people on your hands. Until you've done it yourself, you have very little idea what it takes.

SharpsShooter

12-04-2005, 06:45 PM

Don't get your panties in a bunch. I am entitled to my opinions as you are sir.

Char-Gar

12-04-2005, 07:57 PM

Grumble...You mold went out and I want no back talk from ya! :-)

I really don't have much of a temper, but when it serves my purposes, I affect an attitude. If you get your bluff in on the troops up front, you have less problems on the back end.

My ex-wife taught grade school for thirty years and her policy was to never smile in class until after thanksgiving. Scare the daylights out of the little ****s up front and the rest of the year is easy.

This whole thread has become testimony to the reality of human nature. There are more that one personel adgenda at work here.

I have only done the Honcho thing once, but doubt if I would do it again based on what is going on in this thread.

Bobby is a first rate bullet designer and it is nobody business but his what the detail specs are. Nobody has paid the guy a dime yet for his work, and so nobody has earned the right to gripe about the way he does it. He is too nice a guy to tell his critics to shove it, but that would be an appropriate response IMHO.

The 8mm bullets in question are within spec on the base and just .001 under on the nose, and all that may be attributable to alloy, casting temp and/or technique. No bullet maker will promise tolerances closer than +/- .001. Lee would probably give a Bronx cheer to trying to ship molds back on the basis this thread is working on.

All of us have molds that did not work out to perfection the way we wanted, so what is the issue here? Nobody has fired round one yet, but already the angst has started. Everybody is getting their "nickers in a twist" over .001 on the nose of a bullets that have never been fired down a rifle barrel. Jeeze guys get a grip!

Anyway Jim..when your mold get to darkest New Mexico..just cast away and no whining!!!..growl..snap..snarl..don't jack with me!!!!

grumble

12-04-2005, 08:18 PM

"Grumble...You mold went out and I want no back talk from ya!"
Yeah, well, I'll believe it when I see it, IF (if, if, if) you managed to use the right zip code? <GGG>

"This whole thread has become testimony to the reality of human nature. There is more that one personel agenda at work here.

I have only done the Honcho thing once, but doubt if I would do it again based on what is going on in this thread."

Here's something I never thought I'd say to you, but, "Amen, Brother!!" I'll not do the honcho thing again either, for the same reason others are being driven from it.

"Bobby is a first rate bullet designer and it is nobody business but his what the detail specs are. Nobody has paid the guy a dime yet for his work, and so nobody has earned the right to gripe about the way he does it. He is too nice a guy to tell his critics to shove it, but that would be an appropriate response IMHO."

Yeah, he's so rich that he doesn't need any extra income from the effort he puts in here. And he has all that extra time that would otherwise be put to waste watching cartoons or something, so he designs bolits for us, the unwashed masses. [This is sarcasm, guys -- I've learned to make that clear]

Rest assured, Chargar, I'll be sure to find something petty to whine about when the mold arrives! <GGG>

castalott

12-04-2005, 09:55 PM

Hi Dutch!
I'll take mine just as they are. I really can't complain until I know 'my' molds are too small with 'my' alloy for my 'guns'. I've miked enough bullets from multiple cavity molds to know the tolerances change from cavity to cavity....& mold to mold.. I sometimes wonder how they do as good as they do for the price they charge....

Next, I want to say 'THANKS' to all the honchos and everyone involved in these group buys. Honcho is a thankless task, I suspect. Yes, I 've been disappointed in some group buys in the past. But I have also been very well pleased!

If you come up short in the money department, let me know. I'll kick in some more...

Last, I appeal to the members for calmness. Lets add 'light and not heat' to this discussion.

Dale

charlie / sw mo

12-04-2005, 10:06 PM

ammohead

12-04-2005, 10:15 PM

Dutch,

I would take oldfellers mould should you decide to give someone else a chance to purchase it. PM me a response and your price. I don't visit everyday, it maybe a day or two for me to get back to you, but I'll buy it.

ammohead

Char-Gar

12-04-2005, 10:56 PM

Dutch..When all the dust settles and you have one of these molds left, I will take it. I want it for my 32 Win. Spl. I wanted to get in on the deal, but was cash poor at the time. Let me know.

Dutch4122

12-05-2005, 01:05 AM

So far we have the following individuals who want a mold if one is refused:

Junior
Ammohead
Chargar
Centex Bill
man in black
Moodyholler

If anybody that has already paid for a mold wants to opt out let me know. I'm willing to middleman a side deal to sell your mold (with no questions asked) to one of these fine gentlemen. Guaranteed, no closing costs involved! ;)

Also, I have 17 orders made ready tonight for drop off at USPS tomorrow morning. I'll post a list of zip codes on this mailing tomorrow after they go out.

Last of all, 13 of the buyers have not advised me what they want done with their molds. Given the fact that we now have members coming forward who would like to purchase any molds that would be refused; I need you guys to make your wishes known.

sundog

12-05-2005, 10:42 AM

Dutch, I just now realized that I ordered one of these (74429 - went back and did a search of the thread where we ordered). I want mine. I knew up front there is always a risk in something like this, and I accept my risk. Besides, who knows, this may be the cat's meow in the .32 Win Spl or one of the 8mm's kickin' around. You never know until you get one or two launched. If it's not good, I'll sell it off at a swap meet for whatever I can get and log it out experience. sundog

Calamity Jake

12-05-2005, 12:07 PM

I made commit about testing more of the molds early on, but after some more thought, why. Send mine to me I will be happy. IF you need more $ to cover extra expence let me know.

Cayoot

12-05-2005, 12:14 PM

You put more than enough effort into this Dutch...lets pass them out and call it good. We all pretty much know that Lee is not going to put forth the effort to make things exactly like we order. All we can hope for is "good enough".

Anyone who cannot accept that should either do the "honchoing" themselves or not order on these custom orders. I have 7 custom order molds so far and I've been satisfied with all of them.

Thanks for going through the head-ache for doing this.

Urny

12-05-2005, 03:12 PM

Oldfeller,
My usual imprecise speach, er typing, left the wrong impression about the rifle I'm talking about. It's Steyr M95M straight pull, but given to what became Jugoslavia as war reparations, and modified to a 7.9IS, short rifle design. That is to say, it an 8x57 dimensioned like a K98k. The chamber is so small that the only factory ammo I have found to fit is Winchester, and my three fl sizers reshape fired brass so that it will not chamber. Standard reloading practise is to deprime, decant 4.0 Red Dot, seat a lubed OO buck, and go hunting. I want to try something else.

Edit to add the installation of any large pistol primer. Also, similarly modified rifles were us by, I think, Bulgaria and marked M95/24.

Bear4570

12-05-2005, 06:00 PM

You can send mine as is...thanks for the time and effort.

Willbird

12-05-2005, 08:19 PM

Dutch, even tho I did not choose to get in on that buy, Thank you for your time and effort.

Bill

Dutch4122

12-05-2005, 08:53 PM

The following orders were mailed out today:

Oldfeller's refund
32127
29407
91741
B0P1W0
89815
87821
37179
70726
74429
62899
92374
83706
80015
04783
35803
30736
65759
48226

I have 9 or ten buyers who have not contacted me yet and advised what they want done with their molds. Be advised I have 5 or six requests to get refused molds (in spite of the discrepancies that were supposed to ruin this run) so now is your chance if you want to back out. All those who have contacted me and stated they wanted them shipped are now at the mercy of the USPS as you can see. Only 4 have contacted me today after my two trips to the post office and I didn't have time to sneak back to the Post Office for a third time so theirs will go out tomorrow.

Anybody left after 12-9-05 that has not contacted me gets their mold in the mail as I'll assume that you just didn't have time to send me a PM stating that you wanted it anyway.

Also, I now have 3 molds that belong to me. I will be doing a second test cast (good idea Jake) tonight with plain wheelweight alloy (no tin added or stick on weights in this mix) to see what we get from these 3 moulds that were picked from the bunch at random. I will post the results in the morning before I go to the Post Office.

Last of all, thanks for all of your patience with me on this run and especially thanks to those who have offered help in one form or another. It means an awful lot to me and makes this project all the more worthwhile. :)

porkchop bob

12-06-2005, 12:16 AM

Also, I now have 3 molds that belong to me. I will be doing a second test cast (good idea Jake) tonight with plain wheelweight alloy (no tin added or stick on weights in this mix) to see what we get from these 3 moulds that were picked from the bunch at random. I will post the results in the morning before I go to the Post Office.

Dutch, thanks again for all of your extra efforts. I look forward to your results with 'pure' WW as that is what was specified as the alloy to be used.

Bob

Cayoot

12-06-2005, 08:29 AM

Dutch,

I've never honchoed one of these deals before, but it sure sounds like a head ache. I appreciate all you have put into this.

Thank you.

brimic

12-06-2005, 10:06 AM

I'll take mine as-is. .325 and .318" will work just fine for me, far better than the way undersized lee 8mm mould I alreay have. :cool:

Dutch4122

12-06-2005, 02:57 PM

The following molds went out today by mail:

54213
73159
53037
06450
42748
A1E2Y9

As I mentioned last night I did a test cast with the 3 molds that I own. Molds were selected at random from all three boxes that Lee had shipped the order to me in. Alloy used was straight clip on wheelweight with no tin added and no tape on weights in the mix. No mold release was used and cavities were not smoked prior to casting. Cavities were cleaned with brake cleaner and a clean toothbrush. Bottom pour pot was run at a full 800* and the outside temperature was in the mid 20's. In a nutshell, what I found was that I did get bands that ran .325" - .327" and noses that ran .318" - .321." Each of the three molds definately displayed a different personality as far as what dropped from the cavities. Mold #1 kept dropping them close to .326" on the bands and .319" - .320" on the nose; mold #2 dropped .325" and .326" on the bands and .319" - 321" on the noses; mold #3 started showing .318" - .319" on noses and .326" - .327" on the bands. Boolits were not segregated by cavity and approximately 3 dozen (a handful were measured from each pile) were cast out of each mold after the mold warmed up and stopped throwing rejects. Weight was in the 175 - 176 grain range.

I decided to do this 2nd test cast for two reasons. 1st of all when 45 2.1 did the original test cast he mentioned that the alloy he used was 50/50 wheelweight and jacketed bullet core lead which has a low antimony content; 2nd of all was because Calamity Jake asked for it and it just sounded like a good idea to try this with several other molds. I decided to use my 2 ordered molds and Oldfeller's refunded mold so that I would not end up shipping a used mold to anyone who paid for a new mold.

Just thought the group would like to see my results with three random molds from this run.

Cayoot

12-06-2005, 03:05 PM

Thanks Dutch!

That is some really encouraging information that you gave. I think that anyone that didn't get in on this order is gonna be sorry and scampering for what ever molds are left.

I also think that anyone who did get in on it, then decided not to keep their mold due to some disparaging remarks by disgruntled people (who don't have enough to do with thier time, it seems to me) are gonna have a hard time sitting down for the holidays cuz their behind is gonna be sore from kicking themselves so much! :lol:

Every honcho goes above and beyond just by putting the honcho hat on, but you really went the extra mile to make sure everyone was satisfied.

I really appreciate it.

Dutch4122

12-06-2005, 03:47 PM

Athough I appreciate the thought there's really no need for anybody to thank me for running a second test cast. One of the points made during all the "discussion" caused by this group run was the effects that different alloys, casting techiques, and mold to mold or cavity to cavity differences would make. I think that these three molds help bear that out to a small extent.

Obviously I would have preferred better results. Looks like we have what we have. Everybody please understand that I really want to hear about shooting results with this one. It's darn cold up here in the Big Mitten (18* right now at mid day) and I'm still in the middle of that kitchen project for SWMBO so I won't have a chance to load some of these up and shoot them anytime soon. You guys in the South and Southwest have no excuse (;)) so lets hear about your results when you can make the time.

Oldfeller

12-06-2005, 06:00 PM

Urny,

You ARE one lucky guy, Urny. The post WWI German modified guns to 8x57 are somewhat rare items and should be fairly valuable collectors items on a global basis by now.

How does yours do feeding from the permanently installed false clip "magazine"? Or do you have that particular variant? How is your magazine rigged? Joe & Buckshot -- imagine feeding a smaller bodied cartridge off that push feed face with that huge rim slot -- you know they had to make up new heads with a different hook assembly and lots of magazine modifications to make the gun over to 8x57 from 8x56R.

==========================================

Cayoot,

Let's see, we originally get told the noses are all undersized and we are going to be getting the molds shipped to us willy-nilly anyway because Bob said so (but we won't get provided a print go go back to LEE about it to get it fixed).

Then AFTER all the shooting and hollering that results from this revelation is all over, the man casts him up some more molds and actually finds out that he has a range of nose sizes that does actually go up into the low end of the print range (but what was that print tolerance, anyway???).

And I'm supposed to feel ..... what?

Bob will still leave you hanging out there on a bad mold run without a print to go back to LEE on -- he's proven this out because he thought that WAS what was going on when he made that call.

LEE can really screw up a mold run? (heck, we already knew that)

Now you also know why I cast off of every mold I Honcho, post the ranges and let folks cherry pick out the molds they want. The ones who need big noses get them and the folks who don't really care get smaller molds (but they agree to take them ahead of time).

Or else I fix them so they are right.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller,
My usual imprecise speach, er typing, left the wrong impression about the rifle I'm talking about. It's Steyr M95M straight pull, but given to what became Jugoslavia as war reparations, and modified to a 7.9IS, short rifle design. That is to say, it an 8x57 dimensioned like a K98k. The chamber is so small that the only factory ammo I have found to fit is Winchester, and my three fl sizers reshape fired brass so that it will not chamber. Standard reloading practise is to deprime, decant 4.0 Red Dot, seat a lubed OO buck, and go hunting. I want to try something else.

Edit to add the installation of any large pistol primer. Also, similarly modified rifles were us by, I think, Bulgaria and marked M95/24.

Bman

12-06-2005, 06:47 PM

I vote y'all hush and play nice. Or attempt to act like you've lived enough years to be an adult.

TCLouis

12-06-2005, 10:56 PM

I will use my shoot and see method.
I was unhappy with Lee's C429-310s when I cast and tested their chamber fit in my SRH.
1.3' OUTSIDE to outside for 5 shots at 50 yds proved the proof is in the shooting!!

lb

Urny

12-07-2005, 01:05 AM

My M95M has the welded in charger modification. It feeds the Winchester factory loads just fine, but they are too pricey for common use, and not what I want to shoot anyway. I do have 190 new Herter's cases that maybe would fit, and use of the Lee collet neck sizer might turn the trick for useable reloads. Sure wish it would work with stripper clips.

Bman

12-07-2005, 09:50 AM

Those straight pulls are neat rifles. I knew a guy that rebarreled one to 45-70. It took a bit of tweaking action wise and cartridge case. I think he had to turn the rims down slightly and not sure about OAL. Put a few 500gr through it, they weren't bad around 1200 fps if memory serves. And if I recall he was still working on the feed mechanism we were shooting it single shot but I've kinda wanted one ever since.

Cayoot

12-07-2005, 04:20 PM

Got it today Dutch!!!

Besides my paycheck, it is the best looking thing I've ever seen at work! :bigsmyl2: !

Can't wait to try it out. Thank you again

old goat

12-07-2005, 05:30 PM

...Dutch 4122....

...Received mold in todays mail......Thanks.

...old goat

castalott

12-07-2005, 06:30 PM

Hi Dutch!

got both mine in great shape!! These look to be better quality ( maybe the best) than most.

Thanks Again!

Dale

C1PNR

12-07-2005, 06:48 PM

And again the Pony Express reaches 83706. Despite attempts to crush the box, the contents were just fine.

Thanks again Dutch!

Dutch4122

12-07-2005, 11:49 PM

Three more going out Thursday morning:

85308
84319
10009 (formerly 11429)

I got 4 molds left sitting in the box as I write this. Owners are:

43445
63146
P3L1H4
99114

Everybody else has had theirs shipped to them by mail. As for the 4 molds I have left, if the owners don't contact me by Monday 12-12-05 I'll be sending theirs out to them on that date. Just trying to be careful about allowing enough time for everybody to refuse a mold as I got 6 buyers waiting who want one of these if more are refused/refunded.

Dutch4122

12-07-2005, 11:51 PM

And again the Pony Express reaches 83706. Despite attempts to crush the box, the contents were just fine.

Thanks again Dutch!

Your welcome Bill!

Never fear, I've had 'em all insured! ;)

Buckshot

12-08-2005, 04:17 AM

............Got mine yesterday. Put on a set of handles, flushed the blocks and was getting ready to plug in the pot (had the Charger modified 311407 all ready too) and life became complicated :(. I'm hoping that tomorrow I can sqeeze in at least a couple hours.

BTW, cavities on BOTH sets of moulds look well and cleanly cut.

...........Buckshot

porkchop bob

12-08-2005, 02:32 PM

Mold arrived today in fine shape. Identification of mold is well marked on outside of box. Thanks again. Bob :-)

mike in co

12-08-2005, 06:28 PM

80015 Recd Today !!!!

Urny

12-08-2005, 11:49 PM

Mine is in at 89815. Looks good. Thanks, Dutch.

Maineboy

12-09-2005, 06:53 AM

Dutch, 04783 arrived yesterday. It looks great and your effort is much appreciated. Thanks again.

slug

12-09-2005, 06:02 PM

Send mine along, please.
Thanks.
Stew
P3L 1H4.

Johnch

12-09-2005, 09:38 PM

Sorry I forgot I sent you a check . :holysheep
Send mine at your conveyance

I sort of zoned out when all the "talking" started

43445

Johnch

btr-cj

12-09-2005, 10:42 PM

Looks Good.

Thanks.

C.J.

Bodydoc447

12-09-2005, 10:58 PM

Thanks! Looks good! Just have to make time to melt some lead now.

Doc

brimic

12-10-2005, 03:32 AM

got mine today, looks good, thanks.

53037

Bear4570

12-10-2005, 06:51 PM

Mine came in yesterday, thanks.

rikkit

12-10-2005, 09:32 PM

Mine arrived safely this evening, thanks again for your efforts in putting this buy together. 85308

sundog

12-10-2005, 09:59 PM

Yup, mine was sitting in the mailbox today after I returned from the monthly Military Bolt Match. Man it was cold (for Oklahoma, that is)! I shot a 1.7?? group today with 30-180-SP in a 'as-issued' 03A3! Itty bitty, teeny weeny.

Put a fire on the shop when I came home, Lee-mented my new mould and commenced casting. Only thing is, they would drop without being coaxed alot. Swith to another mould and let it cool off. That new mould had some serious burrs. I finally wound up using a slender, rounded stone on the cavity edges and very carefully cleaned them up. Kinda brutal, but it needed help real bad. btw, I'm not very gentle when I lee-ment a mould so this additional cleaning was about as bad. Warmed that puppy back up and got'er going about half decent. Maybe gonna need a little more 'polishing'. Boolits look purdy good, weigh about 174, and appear to be close to round at .326. So, I have about half a one pounf coffee can that I'll prep and try in a Mdl 94 .32 Spl and a K98. Range report to follow.