PDA

View Full Version : Advice for a beginner.



Hobbsy
12-09-2018, 06:34 AM
Hello from a frustrated beginner.

I'd welcome any advice on the following problem. I've cast Lee 9mm .356 120gr TC boolits and powder coated them. Accuracy out of my CZ 75b and CZ 75 Sport II was abysmal. Some even keyholing at 25 yards ! So, i tried a LEE .358 125gr RF mould, again powder coated. (AOL 1.050") They simply fail to chamber.
Not sure what my next step should be. Any thoughts ? Thanks.

ericandelaine1975
12-09-2018, 07:01 AM
Did you do test loads by going 1gr of powder at a time?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

ericandelaine1975
12-09-2018, 07:02 AM
As far as chambering it could be you don't have it crimped enough.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

toallmy
12-09-2018, 08:18 AM
Is your 356-120 mold the standard lube grove design or the tumble lube grove design ? The reason I ask is wile the 356-120 TC with standard lube grove seams to work well for a lot of members the tumble lube one seams to be a little more problematic . There is a sticky on loading cast boolits for 9mm that is well worth the time to read it . Ill try to find it and let you know where it's at .

toallmy
12-09-2018, 08:25 AM
OK it's in the Forum - Classics & Stickies - Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm . A very helpful thread !

Hobbsy
12-09-2018, 09:57 AM
Thanks for the reply. I think i have the standard lube version (see pic). I'll check out the sticky.231764

Hobbsy
12-09-2018, 10:01 AM
I started at 3.5gr of Lovex DO32 (similar to accurate No2) and worked up to 4.3 gr. No appreciable difference in accuracy. I finally got some 358 to chamber but had to force the slide back to eject the round and it pulled the bullet from the brass in the process.

44MAG#1
12-09-2018, 10:02 AM
Did you do test loads by going 1gr of powder at a time?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

1 grain of powder at a jump is too much of a jump working with such small powder charges. Period.

ericandelaine1975
12-09-2018, 10:12 AM
1 grain of powder at a jump is too much of a jump working with such small powder charges. Period.I've always went one gr at a time then do between the two that held the best pattern. As long as you're not exceeding the load data in a manual its safe. But to each his own. Everyone does it different.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Hossfly
12-09-2018, 10:28 AM
Do you measure to boolits or run thru a sizer after powder coating, to know what is exactly the size? You must know your bore size and the exact location of rifling to get correct col. sounds like their sticking in rifleing if when you chamber and it pulls boolit out when you go to retract and it pulls out.

ShooterAZ
12-09-2018, 10:29 AM
Welcome to Cast Boolits! Here's the sticky: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm If there was one piece of advice I would give to a beginner, it's stay away from 9mm:) They can sometimes be a bear to cast and load for.

William Yanda
12-09-2018, 10:29 AM
AIR, Mr. Lee recommended dividing the span between Starting Load and Max load into 5 even increments. That seems like a logical place to start, 'specially for pistol loads with a small difference between start and max.

44MAG#1
12-09-2018, 10:40 AM
I've always went one gr at a time then do between the two that held the best pattern. As long as you're not exceeding the load data in a manual its safe. But to each his own. Everyone does it different.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Let give a couple points to your 1 grain at a time deal. Speer #14 manual lists for the 124 gr bullet and Unique. Start at 5,2 and Max at 5.8. Another powder, titegroup at start at 4 grains and max at 4.4 gr. Another PowerPistol start at 5.6 gr and max at 6.4 grain. Now if one starts at starting load and jumps 1 grain like you do they would be OVER max. In small cartridges with small charges 1 GRAIN IS TOO MUCH OF A JUMP. Maybe not in some cartridges but not a 9MM or similar cartridges. No one that I know of would ever condone any jump like that in even most small rifle cartridges that hold much more slower powder.
Take a deep breath, think a few minutes before you reply, and see if recommending a 1 grain jump sounds right.
We are talking safety here.


Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

toallmy
12-09-2018, 10:41 AM
I started at 3.5gr of Lovex DO32 (similar to accurate No2) and worked up to 4.3 gr. No appreciable difference in accuracy. I finally got some 358 to chamber but had to force the slide back to eject the round and it pulled the bullet from the brass in the process. I think you should spend a little time playing with your dies getting the feel of what the adjustment you make with them actually do to your brass and your loaded rounds . The 9 is a finicky round that can do some crazy things , like go wild with pressure if the bullet gets seated deeper in the case .
The 356-120 is a good shooting Boolit for many cast Boolit shooters , try to get them sized to .357-.358 , load to the over all length that will plunk test in your barrel with enough neck tension to keep them from being pushed deeper in the case , but not over crimped so much as to squeeze the cast boolits undersized . Then try some powder charges from the lowest load to find wear the firearm will function reliability . After getting this accomplished your almost there - then you try a slight adjustment with the powder charge to find the load your firearm seams to like the best .
I know you probably want to hurry all this up , and load some ammo but take the time to do it right pays off big time on the pleasure you get in the end . Most important thing is to be safe that little 9mm can turn into a bomb in your hand .

ericandelaine1975
12-09-2018, 10:47 AM
And in a case like that i don't go one grain at a time. I'll just load everything between the two listed. I don't own nor will I ever own a 9mm. However loading is loading so I asked because he never said what grain of powder he was using or if he had done test loads.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

44MAG#1
12-09-2018, 10:49 AM
And in a case like that i don't go one grain at a time. I'll just load everything between the two listed. I don't own nor will I ever own a 9mm. However loading is loading so I asked because he never said what grain of powder he was using or if he had done test loads.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

In his first post he said 9MM and listed the weight of the bullet.


Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

ericandelaine1975
12-09-2018, 10:51 AM
In his first post he said 9MM and listed the weight of the bullet.


Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.Yes i got the bullet weight. It was the powder weight i was asking about.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

44MAG#1
12-09-2018, 11:07 AM
Yes i got the bullet weight. It was the powder weight i was asking about.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

First clue was the 9mm caliber. One should realize that the charges are small.


Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

toallmy
12-09-2018, 11:16 AM
I have found the powder charge to be the last thing to consider when loading a little 9mm's when you get to that point a .2 or .3 one way or the other gets you were your hitting what your shooting at most of the time . The fit and function generally is the hardest part with the little devils !

reddog81
12-09-2018, 11:17 AM
Are you a beginning reloaded, caster, or just new to cast 9mm? What diameter were the 120 gr. bullets?

1.05 is starting to get pretty short, but you can go a little shorter assuming you are using starting charges. If the round chambers, but the bullet gets stuck when the brass is ejected that means the OAL is too long and the bullet is getting stuck in the rifling.

If you want your gun to work well with cast it will probably need a throat job done. This will allow .358 bullets seated to more normal lengths to chamber in your gun.

Dusty Bannister
12-09-2018, 11:18 AM
From Hodgdon reloading web site.

"In conclusion, bullets with similar shapes and construction materials will utilize the same data. And, above all else, work up your loads by starting with the beginning load and increase charges in small increments, at all times watching for case head pressure signs and stiff extraction."

What some folks do at their bench is up to them. But please, do not recommend unsafe reloading practices with people new to the hobby. The lack of experience might result in not noticing a problem until after it is too late. I have no doubt you intended well, but apparently there is significant disagreement with other members. Please be safe in the future. Dusty

Silverboolit
12-09-2018, 11:51 AM
Maybe your PC is getting in the way? Did you try a 'plunk' test with just the cast, uncoated boolits? Sometimes it helps to find someone in your area who loads cast boolits that would help you with your issues in a personal way. A mentor is not just a teacher, but can be a shooting partner for many years. 9mm is a great round, but can be picky about how it is loaded.

Jniedbalski
12-09-2018, 12:13 PM
The lee 125 rf is .358 plus as it comes out of the mold. It is made for the 38s and 357’s but will work good in the nines. It has to be seated deaper in the case because of the diameter and the nose shape. If your gun is throated all is well but most 9’s won’t take this bullet seated out to normal oal. Powder coated bullets make it worse. My Star BM and Bretta 92fs shoot this bullet great. My high point hangs up sometimes with this bullet. Have to push the slide sometimes slightly forward to get it to chamber, last reloads I did. The new loads I did I adjusted the oal slightly shorter and all was fine in the high point. I also started .3 gr lighter than starting loads with the shorter oal load. I also used bullseye instead of a slower burning powder.

Hobbsy
12-09-2018, 12:21 PM
Thanks for all the replies ! There's a lot to digest. I've been reloading for 5 years but had no idea 9mm casting would be so finicky. Thinking of trying the 358 105gr SWC. Then at least i wont get the chambering problem. Bye the way, i resize all boolits to 357.

Jniedbalski
12-09-2018, 12:25 PM
He did say that he worked up his loads. I found out that bullet needs to be seated really deep because of the diameter and nose shape. There was a few posts on this bullet a yesr or so ago. Every body found out thst they had to also seat really deep. I used bullseye and started .4 or .3 gr below starting load. I wish I remembered how far I seated them

Jniedbalski
12-09-2018, 12:26 PM
Don’t know what happened to my last post but it just disappeared

toallmy
12-09-2018, 12:29 PM
Pull one of the rounds you have loaded and measure it's base , there is a pretty good chance during loading the boollits are getting squeezed down under .357 .

Kraschenbirn
12-09-2018, 12:37 PM
IMHO, the OP needs to return to Square One: slug the bore, do a 'pound cast' of the chamber, determine the 'as cast' diameter' of both boolit designs (all measurements with a real, honest-to-God micrometer!), then use that information to obtain a proper 'fit'. Also, in my experience, with the 9mm it's best to begin with something that duplicates the configuration of the milspec round...i.e. a 124 gr. RN seated to 1.60 COL. I'd put, literally, thousands of those through a milsurp Canadian HiPower before I learned that the 9x19 is supposed to be a 'difficult' cartridge to reload.

Bill

ShooterAZ
12-09-2018, 01:06 PM
Yep, some guns are more of a stinker than others. Iv'e had the best luck with a Beretta 92FS. That thing will gobble just about anything I put through it. I think one of the biggest things to watch for is the boolit diameter getting squeezed down during seating. That can cause keyholing for sure.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-09-2018, 02:04 PM
Hobbsy,
welcome to the forum.
I can't offer much advice, due to you using PC on your boolits.
I have only had failures when shooting PC boolits. If PC and casting are both new to you, I'd suggest not using PC on your boolits, and just lube them, then see if you have success with your boolits.
Good Luck

Gtek
12-09-2018, 03:06 PM
9mm is too cheap and a bunch comes in one package for me to venture down yet another path, I have seen and read the frustration of others for years though. Have you fired factory that shoots well? Take a few of them and run a micrometer all over it and compare it to your rounds, pop barrel out of piece and plunk, feel and look comparing factory to yours. As stated above I think slugging bore is first step for size, then throat (COAL) and what profile you will need and seat depth and paying attention to rim and barrel hood. Make it run well then worry about having started low and going up on powder to make them hang out together on paper.
Welcome to the madness!

Larry Gibson
12-09-2018, 03:14 PM
I haven't any idea why everyone has a problem with cast in 9mm. I've been casting for it with several different molds and loading 9mm's since '69. I've shot my loads (thousands of them) out of many different 9mm handguns, subguns and a couple carbines. I have never had leading or inaccuracy.

I suggest to the OP if he doesn't have a lubrasizer to get a Lee sizer kit in .357. To cast his 120 gr TC bullets of COWW + 2% tin or other suitable ternary alloy with the antimony/tin in balance. Let them air cool and age for 7 - 10 days before doing anything with them. Follow Lee's directions and lightly coat the bullets with the LLA. Let it dry thoroughly. Push the lubed bullets through the .357 sizer and then apply another light coat of LLA and again let dry thoroughly.

If the OP has a lubrasizer then size the AC'd and aged 120 TCs in a .357 H&I die and lube with a soft NRA 50/50 lube or BAC.

Load them over 4 gr of Bullseye. Seat the bullets so the loaded cartridges pass the "plunk test" in your barrels chamber. Go shooting.

popper
12-09-2018, 03:21 PM
OP didn't state what alloy he's using either. Agree he needs to provide some pulled boolit and mic's sized to expect any proper comments. I use a RNFP 135gr. which works in mine but sometimes gets tumbling in another pistol.

Hossfly
12-09-2018, 05:06 PM
Hobby’s i know my boolits ain’t same as yours but if these pics come thru it may help. My CZ75 BD slugs at .3555 and my painted measure .3558 and col set at 1.0705 all run with no problems.231791



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hossfly
12-09-2018, 05:13 PM
Hobby here is boolit dia.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181209/856497b0c668e05d921f48cb51903df9.jpg
I think your coal is too long, I would cut down on length a few thou till you get them to fit with proper free bore and watch for pressure signs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Tom W.
12-09-2018, 06:42 PM
I do know that my CZ 75 has difficulty with .358 sized bullets, and I am using the same design that you pictured.
I don't PC them, but lube them with Carnauba Red and don't have any trouble if I size them to .357. If I try .358 sized boolits they may chamber one or two without jamming, and the jam is caused by a tiny ring of lead. I can scrape that ring off of the round and it will chamber fine.

This is my experience. My Ruger LC9s Pro and the Glocks that I had would shoot the .358 sized boolits all day long.

MT Gianni
12-09-2018, 08:08 PM
While I don't PC I would start with a velocity of near 1000 fps. I get there with AA2 but any similar speed should work. Try to get and accurate group @ 15 yards. Move up to 1100 fps in 2 increments. See what happens to your groups. If they are staying close try shooting where you can recover bullets and analyse them. See if you're stripping, wearing coating or experiencing failures you can visually see.

John McCorkle
12-09-2018, 10:46 PM
Many have stated different pieces of this thought above...but to recap

9mm is more difficult than say a 38 spc to cast and reload for. Not that it is particularly hard but more complex because the stacking of tolerances happen fast...and what may make a small difference in 38 spc would make a big one in 9mm because of the higher pressure and smaller package (like taking what you sing and turning up the microphone to lvl 9, you hear the things much clearer)

Don't get frustrated with it just remember there are alot of parallel factors all going on at the same time...any number of which will effect your load and it's accuracy

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

Hobbsy
12-10-2018, 02:17 AM
So... i pulled a boolit from a case and its as suspected. They are being squeezed down to .352" (S&B brass). No wonder they are keyholing ! I obviously need to reset my dies.

Oily
12-10-2018, 03:13 AM
#1 Don't get frustrated. 9MM can be finicky depending on your firearm.#2 disassemble your weapon and get the barrel out so you can plunk test your rounds to check for fit/ headspace. 9 MM headspaces on the case mouth. Do not roll crimp 9mm. Taper crimp is advised for this round. Use the largest diameter boolit that will chamber in your barrel with the plunk system. For first timers the plunk system is to take a loaded cartridge and drop it into the raw barrel and it should fall into the barrel and plunk. It should not have to be forced or rotated to fall into the chamber of the barrel. I don't load 9mm anymore but I plunck test every 45 acp round I load and I have no failure to fire or failure to eject problems ever. Yes I am anal with my loading

asmith80
12-10-2018, 10:27 AM
So... i pulled a boolit from a case and its as suspected. They are being squeezed down to .352" (S&B brass). No wonder they are keyholing ! I obviously need to reset my dies.

Fixing that will probably solve most of your issues. I was having ridiculous leading when I first started loading 9mm cast until I figured I was sizing down my boolits accidentally. Figuring out COL is the next big step, especially for the CZs. I'm loading for 3 different CZs, amongst other things, and it seems that a COL I can use successfully in the CZ will chamber just fine in every other 9mm I have.

sureYnot
12-10-2018, 10:58 AM
So... i pulled a boolit from a case and its as suspected. They are being squeezed down to .352" (S&B brass). No wonder they are keyholing ! I obviously need to reset my dies.I tested a few different brass with my alloy to see what I could get away with. S&B was the only one that swaged the bullets down. Others I tested were PPU, WIN and I don't remember the others. If you have other brass, you might get away with using it in your current process.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

Thumbcocker
12-10-2018, 11:34 AM
I load .358 boolits in my 75bd but the barrel was throated by Doug Guy.

Jniedbalski
12-10-2018, 11:41 AM
There is a lot of difference between case thickness between brands. I have noticed this on my 38 special brass. I use noe’s expander in my lee universal expander and no longer have the bullets being sized down. I have also used the lee universal flaring tool and then use the noe’s flaring tool. The lee tool just flares the mouth. Noe’s flairs the the mouth and the case. Some times I want a slightly bigger flair on the case mouth. That’s why i flair the mouth with the lee and then the side of the case with the NOE’s tool

whisler
12-10-2018, 08:24 PM
A Lee 38 S&W expander plug helped me with my 9mm CZ loading. It expands the brass to a deeper level and stopped my swaging of cast bullets to reduced diameter. Cheap too, if you are using Lee dies.

Texas by God
12-10-2018, 08:54 PM
Starting your casting career with 9mm? That's like skipping arithmetic and going straight to calculus [emoji16]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Taterhead
12-11-2018, 02:24 AM
Of the service calibers, I find 9mm to be the trickiest to load cast bullets. Federal cases are your friend. They are thinner walled so more liky to kerplunk. R-P 45 auto cases are similarly thin, but conversely quite thick in 9mm. As are many of the Euro headstamps.

For me, I look for Federal cases. Win/WCC cases are ok too.

Gotta work the COL down to fit the chamber. In my experience, the Lee RF has to be seated SHORT. That's ok, just start low and work up the charges. Yes, one grain ladders are WAY too big for 9mm. 2 tenths is better.

Bullets sized 1k over groove diameter, at least. The next issue with accuracy is that a properly sized buller might get swaged into a smaller diameter when seated. The expander in die sets are typically sized for jacketed bullets. Too narrow for cast. Seat a few bullets and pull them. If diameter shrinks, a different expander is needed. NOE has the solution with their expander plugs.

Next steps: slug the barrel to find groove diameter. Size bullets appropriately.

Look for Federal cases.

Seat deep enough to reliably kerplunk.

Crimp sufficiently so that the case mouth doesn't cause interference.

I load both the Lee bullets mentioned in the OP with success. Sized .358 for a couple old guns.

toallmy
12-11-2018, 07:44 AM
A Lee 38 S&W expander plug helped me with my 9mm CZ loading. It expands the brass to a deeper level and stopped my swaging of cast bullets to reduced diameter. Cheap too, if you are using Lee dies.

Yep it fixed my problem also with the 9mm .

osteodoc08
12-11-2018, 10:45 AM
A few questions for the OP:
1. What PC are you using and does it pass the “smash test?
2. What are you sizing them to or are you running them as cast and as PC?
3. Are you familiar with the plunk test?
4. What powder are you using?

Some pointers:
1. Only flare the case enough to get the bullet barely started. You don’t need a huge trumpet. The flare should just be barely noticeable to sight and touch. Measure a sized case at the mouth and and Flared case and report back.
2. When taper crimping, it doesn’t need much effort. Try to measure a crimp on a factory round to give you an idea of what it should measure. You basically want to just get rid of the slight bell you created earlier.
3. Adjust your OAL until the round “plunks” your barrel.
4. A middle of the road powder charge should get you functionality and some semblance of accuracy. I’d focus on functionality at this stage right now.
5. If having issues with seating and crimping in one stage, set the die high so it doesn’t crimp as it seats and then crimp in a second step (depending on which die set you have)

Hobbsy
12-11-2018, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=osteodoc08;4523282]A few questions for the OP:
1. What PC are you using and does it pass the “smash test?
2. What are you sizing them to or are you running them as cast and as PC?
3. Are you familiar with the plunk test?
4. What powder are you using?

The powder coating is of an unknown manufacturer (ebay). I purchased 10 different colours in 250g packets. I've only tried the red so far and seems ok to me. It passes the "smash test" at least.
Only tested PC boolits so far, sized to .357. The TC plunk nicely, the RF do not. I use Lovex DO32 powder (similar to accurate #2).

JoeJames
12-11-2018, 12:03 PM
One idea here; you might seat first, and then crimp, in two stages. I would crimp very lightly; a taper crimp not a full roll crimp. One note, I recently read that seating the bullet a tad too deep can cause a major pressure jump. I would read up on that also.

gwpercle
12-11-2018, 02:21 PM
Thanks for all the replies ! There's a lot to digest. I've been reloading for 5 years but had no idea 9mm casting would be so finicky. Thinking of trying the 358 105gr SWC. Then at least i wont get the chambering problem. Bye the way, i resize all boolits to 357.

I had been reloading cast boolits for 45 years when I was given a WWII Walther P38 , my first 9mm ,
It is the hardest round I have ever encountered to get cast boolits to function with....If this would have been my first ....it would have been my last. 9mm Luger is a ***** to get everything right...and everything seems to matter.
I do use the Lee boolit you use, the 120 TC , run through a .357 sizing die , it's a good one .
The boolit that really made a difference is one similar to the Lee...It's an NOE- 124 grain TC with a gas check....the Gas Check keeps the case from sizing the soft boolit down... That turned out to be my secrete boolit for successful 9mm cast boolit loads !
Gary

Hobbsy
12-11-2018, 02:52 PM
I've obviously learned the hard way that 9mm isn't the easiest caliber to start with. I also own a .45 1911 and a 357mag revolver. Why would these calibers be any different ? Why don't the problems i've encountered so for not exist for 357mag or .45acp also ?

Taterhead
12-11-2018, 03:29 PM
The 9mm has a small tapered case. It also must fit and feed reliably. So narrower ranges of tolerances in the dimensions. The 38 doesn't need to feed from a magazine. Small dimensional variances in 45 are a smaller percentage of the overall size, so I find it easier to work with, generally.

EDITED to add. For two 9mm guns I load for, one has no throat. The other has some throat but will not tolerate short COL. It wants a longer COL to facilitate tip in angle. Stuff like that adds complication.

toallmy
12-11-2018, 06:20 PM
They do in ways , but they are easier to overcome .

GregLaROCHE
12-11-2018, 06:25 PM
Just an idea that might narrow things down. By a box of high quality cast boolits to load. Make up some of your loads and see what you get. It might give you an idea of where to start looking first.
Good luck