Bismuth alloy REAL bullet w/gas check?

[HumptyDumpty]

Okay, so I have been mulling over the creation of a non-toxic hunting load for my soon-to-be-aquired TC Hawken, 50 caliber rifle. Now, I already have a Lee REAL bullet mold, for a 320 grain projecticle, as well as a 160 grain round-ball. From everything I have read, a bismuth-tin alloy, such as that offered by Rotometals (88/12, bismuth to tin), seems to work just fine for prb, and centerfire bullets. However, it seems there are three inescapable issues:
1. I'll get little in the way of deformation or expansion
2. The non-toxi projectile will be a little lighter
3. Bismuth has a low very melting point. The bullet base may melt, reulting in a loss of accuracy, and fouling.

The first two, I am prepared to live with. The last, I thought I might overcome with a 50 caliber gas check. Any thoughts? I hadn't intended to size the projectiles, so I'll need a good way of properly crimping the gas checks. I have a few ideas, but perhaps you've already invented that wheel.

[country gent]

A over powder wad cut to fit the barrel snug will protect the base of the bullet. Something along the lines of LDPE, cork, rubber fiber gasket material, milk cartoon, or even felt will work to protect base and seal from gas cutting. Felt could be dipped in melted lube to add some lube and help it seal if needed. A gas check may make the real bullet hard to load and start straight.

The over powder wad can be thumbed into muzzle the bullet set on it and then rammed down as normal with the short starter and ramrod. If using a loading block the wad and bullet can be set in together and push into bore together.

What may be even better for the bismuth muzzle loading bullet is a bore dia bullet and paper patch it. The patched wrapped bullet with the patch just covering the base would protect the base and give a good grip on the rifling.

I was under the impression from adds and other information bismuth was heavier than lead which would result in a heavier ball or bullet.

[HumptyDumpty]

Hmm, I think I'll give both those methods a try; they save me the price of a gas check.

[dondiego]

Not sure you will be able to get a bismuth alloy REAL to engrave.

[bob208]

I don't understand why people take something so simple and fool proof as a traditional muzzleloader using black powder and a patched round lead ball. then try to make it so hard and complicated to use.

[Edward]

I don't understand why people take something so simple and fool proof as a traditional muzzleloader using black powder and a patched round lead ball. then try to make it so hard and complicated to use.

Cause they can ,sometimes it even works .But not in this case ! :bigsmyl2:

[HumptyDumpty]

Well, it's simple: I''d prefer to use non-toxic rounds and shot, for animals which I, or my loved ones, are going to consume. The research is out there, the meat does get contaminated. Now, is it enough to matter? Can't say for certain. So, I'll use lead if nothing else works, but I intend to give this a go first. My main reason for purchasing a muzzle-loader, is because I missed the centerfire season this year; I'll still shoot the rifle recreationaly year-round (with lead), but for this particular purpose, I don't mind doing a little extra work, and creating more expensive rounds. I already have the alloy on it's way, I might as well make the effort.
And yes, I wear a respirator, and gloves, when casting. No reason to be reckless.

[arcticap]

Most all of the research about lead contamination of hunting meat involves lead particles that spread from bullets that are fired from high powered rifles.
Those high velocity bullets tend to fragment and disperse lead to a much higher degree than muzzle loading projectiles which the lead dispersal is rather benign if at all.
That's a big plus for the use of muzzle loaders.
Of course it would be recommended to removed any meat surrounding the wound or that was damaged by the lead projectile or shot that may have come into contact with it or fragmented by hitting bone.
But the use of pure lead with muzzle loaders helps to eliminate most of the fragmentation compared to what occurs when using high powered rifles.
Some water jug tests of even plated lead bullets have shown that 99.9% of the bullet weight remains intact after being fired from a muzzle loader.
That test result that I recently saw was from a home test done with a Speer Deep Curl bullet that was fired along with a sabot from an inline rifle.
And it's a pretty simple operation to remove any shotgun damaged meat from small game unless the game is peppered with too much lead shot.
But there's always the alternative non-toxic or plated shot.
Many folks simply use non-toxic [often pure copper] bullets fired with sabots which are readily available.
And there's also some other alternative non-toxic bullets.

This test was done shooting a 270 grain Deep Curl [flat] soft point bullet with 80 grains of Blackhorn 209.
At the end of the video, it shows the weight of the recovered bullet is 269.6 grains which is 99.9% of its original weight.


https://youtu.be/zShroXJ3C-c

[charlie b]

I understand your goal. If you proceed you can knock the last item off your issues. As mentioned above, load with a card wad, then lubed felt wad.

I do that with all of my conical loads. I put the powder in then a .060 veggie card wad. I ram the wad and compress it on the powder. This also 'wipes' the bore a bit before loading the bullet. Then I place the felt wad and put the bullet on top of that. Them ram those. I don't hunt so all my bullets are bore dia. They just slide down with the weight of the ramrod. Most of the time I shoot paper patched bullets. Recovered paper shows no burning from the powder charge.

PS Paper patching might not work for bismuth. Not sure where it is on the hardness scale but PP bullets need to be very soft to upset in the bore. Pure lead kind of soft (7-8bh).

[RED BEAR]

if you are that worried about lead contamination then i suggest a spear or bow and arrow. people take some of this stuff way to far. most studies that say something is bad for you use doses no one will likely never get. if a huge amount is bad then even a minute amount must be bad to. the reasearchers claim to much food is bad for you so we should probably stop eating to.

[William Yanda]

if you are that worried about lead contamination then i suggest a spear or bow and arrow. people take some of this stuff way to far. most studies that say something is bad for you use doses no one will likely never get. if a huge amount is bad then even a minute amount must be bad to. the reasearchers claim to much food is bad for you so we should probably stop eating to.

Tell him about water poisoning too!

[charlie b]

Let the guy do what he wants. No reason to get all up tight about it.

As to lead issues, it really does not matter what is 'safe' or is not. The government will make that decision for us, like they did with waterfowl and lead shot.

Just hope they allow lead bullets for a bit longer.

[aephilli822]

Tell him about water poisoning too!

You refer to the deadly dihydrogenmonoxide????

[FergusonTO35]

I would pour a couple of the REALs and try 'em without a gas check or wad at first just to see how they do. Blackpowder and substitutes are pretty forgiving as far as boolit hardness goes. Hint: REAL boolits work great with Bore Butter just rubbed on with the fingers.

[Good Cheer]

HD,
If you are hunting at short ranges there are even brass balls available from industrial supplies that will put meat on the table.

For lower cost solutions, how difficult is it to melt down scrap copper and create usable round ball?

[richhodg66]

Will Bismuth be too hard to obturate when fired like a lead REAL would?

If it was me, and I just had to use a non toxic bullet in a muzzle loader, I'd skip the REAL, cast a .44 SWC of some sort out of Bismuth and use one of the plastic sabots that are designed for pistol bullets. I've done this successfully with .44 bullets I cast in an inline.

[RED BEAR]

lead in water is a load of bull to. the great flint water crisis what a joke. most water systems in the us fail the epa standars. i will say i do have a water filter on my drinking water because it taste terrible. county sent out letter telling everyone with health problems to comtact doctor before drinking.

[megasupermagnum]

I've played with bismuth a bit, but never cast a bullet of it. The stuff is incredibly brittle, and relatively hard. I have a feeling that even if you could ram the REAL down the barrel, it would fracture the driving bands. I wouldn't even bother trying. The round ball might work. A bismuth RB can't be much different than a hard lead ball. Bismuth is an acceptable alternative to lead shot in a shotgun, especially compared to steel shot. I would not bother with it in a rifle though. There are various non toxic balls or bullets you can buy that would perform much better. You will find that the bismuth alloy behaves differently than lead. It stays in a "slushy" state much longer. Even when it looks solid, it can still have a liquid core that can leak, at least when I was casting ingots. It's weird stuff. The melting point isn't that low, I seem to remember it being about 500 degrees. A little lower than lead, but not enough to worry about. You can try the round balls if you like, but I really don't think a conical will work.

[john.k]

Looks like a workable alloy is 88/12 tin,so cost would be $20 lb,with no scrap available either.The other problem I see is the metal expands on cooling,meaning bullets may stick tightly in mold cavities......As to ingots breaking apart,lead does that ,a 112lb ingot takes a while to cool ,even with a water spray.If you dump the mould out too soon,the ingot breaks open,and liquid runs out.

[Whiterabbit]

I have zero concern about bullet melt.

Just like I have zero concern for my finger catching on fire when I pass it through a candle flame. There's just not enough time with fire under the bullet to worry about melting.

[Ateam]

lead in water is a load of bull to. the great flint water crisis what a joke. most water systems in the us fail the epa standars. i will say i do have a water filter on my drinking water because it taste terrible. county sent out letter telling everyone with health problems to comtact doctor before drinking.

So this is not entirely true. There was lead in the water, but not simply because of the lead pipes. The Federal emergency manager assigned to flint to tackle their financial insolvency decided to stop buying water (clean and safe) from the city of Detroit, and just pump city water out of the Detroit river instead. Now the Detroit river is a toxic pit of industrial disgusting if I have ever seen one. Step two in really screwing this up was (as another cost savings) they stopped putting corrosion inhibitor in the water, who knows what consuming corrosion inhibitor does to you but that is another tangent. So we have corrosive Detroit river water attacking old oxidized lead pipes which before now caused no trouble and dumping the product into your sink. Not the fault of lead. If I had to point fingers it would be the emergency manager.... now where was that bucket of tar and bag of feathers...

But back on topic, The REAL is designed to have the skirt flair and fill the bore upon firing right? I don't see that happening with anything other than soft lead. If you absolutely have to use non toxic and want to cast, try casting a round ball and patching it, I honestly think it is the only way you are going to get it down the barrel.

[arcticap]

But back on topic, The REAL is designed to have the skirt flair and fill the bore upon firing right? I don't see that happening with anything other than soft lead. If you absolutely have to use non toxic and want to cast, try casting a round ball and patching it, I honestly think it is the only way you are going to get it down the barrel.

The REAL bullet doesn't have a skirt but rather a flat base with a slightly beveled edge. REAL stands for "Rifling Engraved At Loading".
The Lee Minies have a skirt.

[megasupermagnum]

For that cost, why don't people cast bullets of pure tin? It would still be harder to load a conical, but would at least be malleable like lead.

[RED BEAR]

i am just saying that nobodies water is what the government says it should be. in my locality i had to put a water filter on my sink to get the water clean enough to run through a good filter. if i could stand to drink it the way it comes out of the tap i would have. but it just tastes terrible.

[HumptyDumpty]

Okay, let's get real for a moment; the US Government is hardly overly-concerned, about toxicity in our water/enviroment, or consumer products; they only act as if they are, when there is more money to be made, or power to be grabbed. Whether it is flouridated drinking water, tobacco, asbestos, lead, pesticides and herbicides (glyphosate is a great contemporary example), vaccines, "man-made" global warming, endocrine distruptors in common food products and packaging, etc; their position depends upon their objective. The USDA, FDA, and EPA are all corrupt bureaucracies. For crying out loud, how many in positions of authority, are STILL crying wolf over dietary cholesterol? How many of you reading this, still believe it causes heart disease? Take each substance, learn about it, and make your own determination.
Some of you have provided very good information, and at least one compelling counterpoint for my concerns (that being the retained weight of projectiles, when fired from a muzzle-loader; it may well be the determining factor if I can't get satisfactory non-lead performance), and I appreciate that. The potential issues I may experience with a REAL bullet, may well manifest themselves. I am beginning to think that is quite likely; I'll be sure to post my results. That being said, I am very optimistic about using a Bismuth PRB. No matter what happens, I will continue to enjoy using cheap, lead projectiles for most purposes, but I'll take as much care as is practical in regards to what I feed myself and others.
Finally, if you are still inclined to believe the government is concerned about our safety, consider this: Gun control. They have all the statistics, they know the reasons for the Second Amendement, but still shriek about "gun violence" to anybody who will listen. It's about power, gentlemen, and I'll not place much stock, one way or the other, in how concerned the government does or does not seem to be, about anything.

[jjarrell]

Just put 30 grains (volume) of Cream of Wheat over the powder before raming the bullet home. The bullet base will be fine. It doesn't have to be such an ordeal.

[Ateam]

My apologies on the stating the REAL had a skirt, I was thinking of the improved minie. Looking forward to seeing some test results!

[Good Cheer]

Too bad Lee didn't ever make REAL's with a shallow cup on the bottom.