No RTV. Do I dare.

[Ickisrulz]

I am assembling a Y Block 292 engine. I have everything off except for the rotating assembly, cam and lifters. This engine was rebuilt in 1978 and since then only amassed 20K miles as it has been sitting for 25+ years. The heads were not rebuilt in 1978, just replaced with a used set. I started working on trying to get it started and found I had no compression in a few cylinders so I removed the heads. The machine shop told me everything needed to be replaced and now I have them back in like new condition. The cylinder walls look great and there was zero sludge (or metal) in the oil pan or lifter valley.

Everything I took off I de-rusted, de-greased and painted. I am at the point now I need to reassemble this thing. While looking on Ford forums I find that there are people who swear that RTV is not needed with gaskets. I looked at Fel Pro's site and sure enough they tell you not to use RTV except for gaps and where parts meet at corners. This seems strange to me as I have always used RTV for oil pains, water pumps, timing covers and valve covers (that's what I was taught). Has anyone here put an engine together without using RTV and just the gaskets?

By the way, this engine is in a 1959 F100 that was purchased new by my grandfather. He died in 1983 and my father and I drove it from CA to NY. My parents kept the truck in their garage for a few decades. They didn't drive (or start) it much. They made a cross country move and now I have it. The floor pans need to be replaced, but that is the only rust.

[MyFlatline]

In a previous life I twisted wrenches. Worked on a bunch of International Harvest engines. They recommended weather strip glue/adhesive. The 3M yellow for all of their gaskets. I have never used RTV on a head gasket, yes high heat stuff on pans and valve covers but that is about all..

[Petrol & Powder]

" Has anyone here put an engine together without using RTV and just the gaskets? "

For the most part, "YES !"

Back before RTV was common, gaskets were the rule.
The old cork gaskets were sealed with Indian Head Gasket Shellac (that little brown bottle was on the top of every toolbox I was around)

The head gaskets were pressed steel, sometimes with copper inserts, sometimes with a fiber section and sometimes just mild steel. They went on dry.

The Intakes on "V" blocks were the most challenging and RTV was a godsend for the ends of the block under the intake (GM engines were the worst) but even those could be assembled without RTV. Once RTV became common the practice was to use the intake to head gaskets but substitute RTV for the ends of the "valley".

Oil pans were rubber, cork, or one of the black rubber like fiber gaskets. A little RTV around the corners of the front timing cover/oil pan area could be helpful.

Every thing else was just gaskets.
Things that had to come apart like valve covers on engines with adjustable lifters got gaskets glued to one side and a thin layer of grease on the other side to help them separate later. It didn't always save the gasket but it made replacement a lot easier.

And yes, I do remember using that weather strip adhesive to glue some gaskets in place.

THE OLD SCHOOL WAY WAS TO AVOID RTV :razz:

[chuckbuster]

PermaTex #2 "Aviation Formula"

[BorderBrewer]

no RTV, a little permatex to hold the valve cover gasket in while you assemble.

[30calflash]

Just an FYI, If you had the timing chain off it's not timed like a regular V8 engine.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ford+292+v8+timing+marks&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWpNCIoPjeAhVLhOAKHf8_BWUQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1536&bih=775#imgrc=Htm-dcoTRG4v0M:

Another one: https://www.google.com/search?q=ford+292+v8+timing+marks&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWpNCIoPjeAhVLhOAKHf8_BWUQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1536&bih=775#imgrc=tyFgSmF3Y9PUzM:

[Bird]

Only time I have ever used it, was on badly corroded parts such as thermostat housing flange if a new one was not available. Just built a 1937 ss100 engine.......rtv was not around in those days. Think RTV appeared in the 70's.

[poppy42]

No rtv on head gaskets or valve covers or just about any place on that motor. On On places like thermostat housing’s maybe oil pans where gaskets are tough to hold in place I would put a little gasket shellac on one surface only! usually on the block itself just to hold the gasket in place. Make sure you straighten out the valve covers any oil pans would’ve bolts go through when you finger on the inside mating surface make sure there’s no bumps if there is tapping down very lightly. In some cases are new or blocks I’ve used our TV around oil pan where it meets the crank in the front and the back but not on the gaskets itself. And yes I’ve done more than one Ford. Including a for 29 cobra jet, more than one 351s, A few 289s, A couple of 300 straight sixs, and one Chevy four 400 small block, That was punched out 40 over. Which i’ve put in the 72 jeep Cherokee and I pulled it up to a 400 Pontiac turbo transmission. Just so you know I’m not blowing smoke up your back side. Put that baby together and please post some pics I would love to have and I’ll pick up like that. Good luck take care you’ll be fine

[Texas by God]

We used Permatex as well. We had a 1958 short bed Fleetside with the 292, 3 speed on the column and Factory Overdrive. That truck would jump naked!
I also had a 1967 F100 long bed Fleetside with the 352 Y block and it was a great motor as well the solid lifters clicked a bit but that didn't bother this teenager.

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[Ickisrulz]

One thing I noticed while removing parts was that no RTV had been used. Some adhesive was used to hold gaskets in place during assembly. The engine was pretty oily though. I guess this was due to age and sitting without running for so long.

The parts on the Y block are very heavy duty compared to a SBC, for example. The timing cover is a piece of cast iron that weigh 25 pounds. The valve covers and oil pan are stamped from some seriously thick stuff. The oil pan sits flat against the block all the way around without the round front part that can leak on some engines. You don't have to worry about the front of the intake manifold either. This all got me to thinking that maybe not using RTV isn't crazy.

I am aware of the peculiar method of timing between the cam and crank. I haven't removed the gears though.

[Ickisrulz]

We used Permatex as well. We had a 1958 short bed Fleetside with the 292, 3 speed on the column and Factory Overdrive. That truck would jump naked!
I also had a 1967 F100 long bed Fleetside with the 352 Y block and it was a great motor as well the solid lifters clicked a bit but that didn't bother this teenager.

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The 352 engine in the 1967 F100 was an FE block not a Y block. I think Y blocks were used until 1964.

[poppy42]

The fact That the valve covers and Oil pan and similar parts and gunk on inside. The last time the engine was rebuilt it’s very possible they didn’t bother the clean those things adequately. Just changed the parts that were broken worn out and smacked it back together . We had a rather derogatory term for those types of rebuilds which I won’t repeat on this open forum

[PaulG67]

"Has anyone here put an engine together without using RTV and just the gaskets?"

Yes, all the time. It is a waste of time, money, and it makes a mess.

[Ickisrulz]

The fact That the valve covers and Oil pan and similar parts and gunk on inside. The last time the engine was rebuilt it’s very possible they didn’t bother the clean those things adequately. Just changed the parts that were broken worn out and smacked it back together . We had a rather derogatory term for those types of rebuilds which I won’t repeat on this open forum

Where did you get the idea there was gunk in the engine? I said here was zero gunk.

[rcslotcar]

I used Permatex Aviation on a lot of parts to seal and places that had (it is brushed on) corrosion. It works great to hold gaskets in place for assembly.

[poppy42]

Where did you get the idea there was gunk in the engine? I said here was zero gunk.
Sorry I guess I read a post wrong. Hey I’m old give a break. Anyway good luck with the rebuild and please post some pics of that truck

[Petrol & Powder]

One thing than has improved over the years is the quality of gaskets.

The old cork/rubber gaskets were the norm and they worked but the newer style black fiber/rubber ones were far better over the long term.
Gasket Shellac was used on the old cork gaskets for a few reasons. The shellac not only held the gasket in place (which could be very helpful) but it also prevented oil/gas/coolant from seeping through the gasket.

It was also common practice to glue gaskets to one surface, usually on the part that is removed, and coat the other side in grease. This was done so that during future disassembly the gasket would be more prone to stick to the part that you were replacing anyway. So things like water pumps and fuel pumps had the gaskets glued to the removable (and later discarded) part.

Some things like the gasket under the distributor were just greased.

Valve cover gaskets were glued to the valve covers with 3M weather strip adhesive and greased on the side that met the head.

Two piece rear main seals were slightly offset so that the gap between the two sections didn't align with the gap between the bearing cap and the block. The ends of the seal were cleaned with acetone a just a dab of RTV of adhesive was used to glue the two halves together when the bearing cap was put in place.

Steel freeze plugs were cleaned with acetone and the inside surface painted days before they were installed.

Threaded plugs were degreased and Teflon tape or pipe dope was applied to the threads before they were installed.

It is that attention to detail that pays off over long periods of time.

Prior to the invention of RTV, gaskets worked just fine. After RTV came along, gaskets still worked fine but RTV could help.
At one time, any use of RTV was the sign of a bad mechanic. Things have changed and RTV has become more commonplace, even eliminating gaskets in some situations but good gaskets and some attention to detail will produce excellent results.

[MT Gianni]

Sure, went through a lot of Permatex. But previous to RTV most replacement part surfaces were flat and square faced. I have even cut gaskets out of cardboard cereal boxes.

[lefty o]

only place to use it is the china walls front and back of the intake valley.

[MyFlatline]

How many actually know what RTV stands for. I have always been amazed at how many don't..

[MyFlatline]

Room Temperature Vulcanizing

[xs11jack]

Do any of you remember the old wax coated cardboard milk cartons?? I made a few engine gaskets out of that stuff and it never seem to leak either.
Ole Jack

[rockrat]

I have used alot of Aviation permatex #2, but now I use Hylomar (at least used to be called Hylomar), a sealer that RR used on their jet engines.
Used the copper spray gasket stuff on head gaskets, but I know there are some that they say don't use any sealer on them.

[Houndog]

Back when I went to Automotive school, vocational and factory, you were taught to assemble engines with grease to hold your gaskets in place and only use sealers at the corners of the intake manafold and timing chain cover. I still build em that way.

[Idaho Mule]

There is an EXCELLENT article on re-building/hot-rodding Ford's Y block engines in the latest "Classic Trucks" magazine (Jan. 2019). I know that does't answer your question but it may be helpful. Worst place for leaks is rear main seal area because of all the gaps (same as FE big blocks). Those old y-blocks sound so cool with dual exhaust thru fairly large glass pack mufflers, gives them a nice deep throaty rumble. Have fun with it!! JW

[Texas by God]

Sure, went through a lot of Permatex. But previous to RTV most replacement part surfaces were flat and square faced. I have even cut gaskets out of cardboard cereal boxes.And the old beer six pack sleeves.

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[Texas by God]

The 352 engine in the 1967 F100 was an FE block not a Y block. I think Y blocks were used until 1964.I'll take your word for it. I disremember lots of things these days.

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[jimlj]

If RTV is used properly it works great.
I've used Permatex to hold gaskets in place, usually on one side against the valve cover or oil pan.
The main problem with RTV in my opinion is misuse. The old adage "a little is good, a lots better and too much is just right" doesn't apply to RTV.
In my experience head gaskets go on dry, or sprayed with copper sealant if directed by the manufacturer.

[LaPoint]

There are better products, such as PERMATEX Right Stuff. The problem with RTV is when it is smeared thin or it squeezes out and sets up. It will break off and it get into the oil pan. Then the "flakes" can/will plug the oil pump intake screen and starve the engine of lubricating oil.

[corbinace]

As LaPoint points out RTV is not the current best product. The Permatex product "The Right Stuff" in my opinion is.

If it smells like vinegar it is not what you want. It is late and I am tired so I do not remember the different names of the compound but I do remember "No Vinegar Smell".

BTW, The 292 was my first engine rebuild and as mentioned the sound is unmistakable all these years later. Thrush glass packs (remember the purple haired woodpecker?) followed by three inch pipes exiting each side where the bed and cab meet. No wonder I'm deaf today.

[RogerDat]

Permatex and/or grease was what we used. I recall being told RTV was invented for the auto manufactures to make sealing easier when building engines on assembly line. It was faster and worked "ok" but wasn't considered "better".

I still recall being chewed out royally for using moms hot plate to heat and anneal copper head gaskets for motorcycle. I was just thankful she didn't show up when I had the head on there getting hot while valve guides were on dry ice getting cold enough to press fit in by hand with a guide drift punch.

[Circuit Rider]

30calflash, I guess no one picked up one your timing remark. I'm now in my late 70's and was a mechanic for 32 yrs(June '59 to Aug 91). I was getting screwed around big time by an employer that was smarter than anyone in the shop or State in his feeble mind. My last day I was replacing the timing chain and gears and intentionally set the chain in what would be the normal position. I was told it took he couldn't figure the problem out as to why it wouldn't fire up. Another mechanic finally saw the problem. JC

[Three44s]

PermaTex #2 "Aviation Formula"

Yes Sir!

But not for aluminum so there fore not for aircraft or all these go doozers ..... motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc etc.

Too much scratching to remove it from alluminum and you will damage those metal sealing surfaces.

Three44s

[Three44s]

There are better products, such as PERMATEX Right Stuff. The problem with RTV is when it is smeared thin or it squeezes out and sets up. It will break off and it get into the oil pan. Then the "flakes" can/will plug the oil pump intake screen and starve the engine of lubricating oil.

The Right Stuff! We have a funny story about that Stuff! I won’t bore you guys with it as it is long but we get a lot of chuckles on that one around these parts.

Nothing against it as it is GOOD STUFF .... particularily where gasoline is involved.

It works in about any environment but for convienence Aviation Formagasket that you brush on is more handy everyday.

The goobers from RTV is the problem.

I have a crazy story on that stuff: We have a 64 CJ5 for banging around the ranch. Every time you took it out to the far corners of the spread that dirty scumbag would make you walk home!

Every Time!

One day I was walking home and had gotten perhaps 200 yds away from it and remembered there were a crescent and pair of pliers in it so I marched back and proceeded to pull the fuel hose off the bottom of the fuel tank. Not a drop of gas came out!

The back story was that we had just gotten the tank back from a competent radiator shop and a guy working for us had reinstalled it.

I back blow on the hose and get an immediate response (face full of gas).

I fire the Jeep up and drive home.

We yank the fuel tank out and dump the contents into a bucket(s). And there in the bottom lay six little blue rubber balls of silicone. Perfect size to work as check balls for stopping the fuel from leaving the tank.

The goof ball working for us had siliconed the sending unit onto the top of the tank ran the screws through it and plucked them into the bottom of the tank.

We will never know how many good rebuilds on components have been destroyed by the use/misuse of RTV but it must be many.

Three44s

[Mk42gunner]

...The goobers from RTV is the problem.

I have a crazy story on that stuff: We have a 64 CJ5 for banging around the ranch. Every time you took it out to the far corners of the spread that dirty scumbag would make you walk home!

Every Time!

One day I was walking home and had gotten perhaps 200 yds away from it and remembered there were a crescent and pair of pliers in it so I marched back and proceeded to pull the fuel hose off the bottom of the fuel tank. Not a drop of gas came out!

The back story was that we had just gotten the tank back from a competent radiator shop and a guy working for us had reinstalled it.

I back blow on the hose and get an immediate response (face full of gas).

I fire the Jeep up and drive home.

We yank the fuel tank out and dump the contents into a bucket(s). And there in the bottom lay six little blue rubber balls of silicone. Perfect size to work as check balls for stopping the fuel from leaving the tank.

The goof ball working for us had siliconed the sending unit onto the top of the tank ran the screws through it and plucked them into the bottom of the tank.

We will never know how many good rebuilds on components have been destroyed by the use/misuse of RTV but it must be many.

Three44s
I had a 57 F100 that had enough rust in the tank to do the same thing. I got pretty good at blowing the rust loose, as long as the filler cap was off. The big trick was remembering to put it back on before driving off.

That old 292 (or maybe 272 not sure which) sure had a lot of low end torque, even with just a three speed transmission.

Fun times driving old junk.

The last engine I rebuilt I used mainly copper spray adhesive to stick the gaskets in place it works no leaks after several years.

Robert

[jonp]

I've used Ultra Black on a couple of vehicles valve covers when replacing the gaskets to fill the gaps and under the gasket, thinly. Worked fine for me. The only place I used it in place of a gasket was at the rear diff cover on my F150. Didn't have a lead but when I removed it to replace the drive axles I used a gasket and didn't use it again.

I always made sure to go around the outside of the bolt holes not inside of them to stop the silicone from entering the engine or differential and just enough to do the job not gob it on.

If there are no gaps I don't think I'd use it instead of a gasket. Oil pans etc get a gasket and I've had no leaks there on 3 of my current vehicles.

[bob208]

I use it on the water pump to block gaskets. also on the intake gaskets that way I can reuse them. head gaskets get al. or copper paint. I only udr the steel shim gaskets. oil pan I put studs in the block they hold the gaskets in place while putting the pan on.

[Lloyd Smale]

another vote to leave it off. If you buy quality gaskets its not needed and will just make the next disassembly a pain in the but. It can be used on intakes and I usually install them leaving the front and rear gasket pieces off and using silicone instead but not in combination and use a bit on the water pump bolts that go into the water jacket but that's it. About the best use for it is to tack gaskets in place so you don't have to use 4 hands to put something together. But like brillcream just a dab will do you. Id bet most motors you see with it dripping out of every orfice were put together in someones back yard and they didn't even know what a torque wrench was. Another use for it is in a pinch it can be used on motors that you just cant buy gaskets for anymore like some of the old flat heads.

[EDG]

Some engines used to specify RTV at the corners of the intake manifold and where the oil pan rails met the front and rear oil pan end gaskets. With cars having an oxygen sensor RTV. Is usually a no no.

[Lloyd Smale]

theres sensor safe rtv.
Some engines used to specify RTV at the corners of the intake manifold and where the oil pan rails met the front and rear oil pan end gaskets. With cars having an oxygen sensor RTV. Is usually a no no.

[mozeppa]

used indian head and permatex...why have work to re-fix.