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compass will
10-03-2008, 01:53 PM
If I size the lead to .308, then wrap it to .310-.311, Do I need to run the finished product through a sizer if .310-.311 is what I want?

If yes, can I size paper with a Lyman sizer?

bcp477
10-03-2008, 04:07 PM
In your stated scenario, if .310 - .311 is the final diameter you want, then NO, you do NOT need to size the patched bullet. I have never had any luck with sizing already patched bullets anyway - the patches have always been damaged by this. Others have had a different experience. But, I always size the bullet first, THEN patch to the diameter I want.

docone31
10-03-2008, 08:58 PM
Will, When I wrap, I can get .311. If I do this, I do not size. I have not found a need.
I will be wrapping to .314. With .308, then two wraps of notebook paper, I will get .314-.315.
If I can chamber, or load the casting, I will not bother to size. If it is too tight, I hope sizing down .001 will not be an issue.
When I wrap, I do not use lube. To size, I will have to use a little lube. I will probably, in that case just smear some homemade lube on the paper. I am hoping sizing that little, will not affect the patch.
I have heard some folks say they size paper patched boolitts. I wasn't sure about the sizing I originally did, but, it worked. I imagine sizing a patched boolitt will be the same way.

beemer
10-03-2008, 09:43 PM
I always lube the wraped boolit with LLA before shooting or sizing. The lube helps to keep the paper from tearing. I have sized with a Lyman or a Lee push through die. If you wrap to the proper dia. no sizing is necessary. Sometimes the proper combination is hard to find depending on avaliable moulds and paper. Sizing doesn't seem to hurt anything if it is not excessive.

beemer

docone31
10-03-2008, 10:44 PM
Beemer,
I get .317 with two wraps of notebook paper, .3135 with three wraps of Meade,
is it feaseable to size to .314 from .317?
I will be useing a Lee Push Thru sizer .314.
When I size, I will clip the tail. I can see where a tail could be an issue with sizeing.
I am considering the .314 with the two wraps of notebook paper as the .3135 with three wraps of Meade I believe is just a tad under.
I got 3" at 100yds with .3135, I would like to get 1". I do heavily bell the cases for loading. I use a twist drill bit backwards, just tight enough to fit the case, then I wobble it to make the bell.
It has worked well so far.
Essentially, I get the same groups with .3135 paper as I do with jacketed .311 spire points. I am now loading .312 round nose jacketeds, and get much better accuracy. I also have to bed the foreend. As the barrel heats up, the group gets wilder and wilder.
From a cold barrel, it is a tack driver.

beemer
10-04-2008, 08:23 AM
docone31
I have sized from the .314 wraped with Meade to .311 with a Lee sizer. I shot then in a sporterized 03 Springfield in 30-06. The bore is .309 and the .311 chambered easily. It did around 1 3/4 at 100 yds with several groups. I haven't tried it again as I got tied up with other things. I did cut the tails and lube with LLA. Depending on the die ,paper, lube, boolit and how much you size them your results might vary but .003 seemed to work. I would try it, if you ruin a few boolits just recycle them.

What are you shooting them in, if it's the Enfield what model is it?

beemer

docone31
10-04-2008, 06:28 PM
Beemer,
You have steered me on course so far. I am getting a die in .314. If you are getting results like that, I should have no issues except the once in a while unwrap.
My Smelly, is a Lithgow, 1942, #1MKIII, heavy barrel. It came with original scope mounts although the scope has been replaced.
I had first thought, Wow! heavy barrel! Must be tight to spec.
Wrong.
She takes .312 jacketed, and .314 paper patched. The barrel heats up like none I have ever seen. I have also not bedded it. That barrel gets hot!
I fired 20, .312 paper patched with 400 grit rubbed on the patch. Apparently it is an hammer forged barrel. The grit embedded castings eliminated all of the "chatter" in the bore.
Oh yeah, it came with a wood cheek piece. I know it is not an addition as the person who gave it to me was in a wheel chair and had not fired it for over 30yrs.
I had been sizing to .308, with two wraps of Meade. I got 20ft groups. I sized to .308, three wraps of Meade, got .3135, and 3" groups at 100yds. I am going to try, two wraps of notebook paper for two wraps at .317, then size to .314.
I believe that will be the winning combination.
I do have to bell my cases for the paper patch to be loaded.
You have really helped me Beemer. I appreciate it.
My rifle attracts a lot of attention at the range. I kept the armory marks on the furniture. An interesting aspect of the rifle, The bayonette lugs of the Smelly have been milled off and the number put on it.
Apparently, the person who gave it to me, his father carried it in Korea. I did some research on it, and the Smelly was used there.
I love the rifle! It feels good, points well, and with boolitts that fit, hits stuff. Recoil is negligeable.
I have five loads per case so far with no indication of the classic head seperation. Maybe this load, who knows.
I got my wife an Ishy, and she really loves that one. ACCURATE! I am getting a reciever sight for her this week. Shouldn't be too hard to install, not like an 03-A3. That reciever is hard!
You been a big help Beemer. With the help you provided, I am almost there with my Smelly.

beemer
10-04-2008, 08:47 PM
I think we have hi-jacked this thread but a couple more questions. If the barrel has been changed how is it bedded ? Does it have the full stock with handguards and how was it altered for the heavy barrel ? I have tinkered a lot with the bedding on Enfields and they can be a little strange. If the rifle has the full military forend the barrel will heat up quicker and stay hot longer than a sporter. Enfields are one of my favorites, maybe not the prettiest or the most accurate but rugged, dependable and lots of history.

beemer

docone31
10-04-2008, 09:05 PM
Yeah, we kinda hijacked the thread a bit, not much, but a bit.
The barrel is stamped Lithgow. It has interesting machineing. Where the middle screw goes, it is a two piece threaded clamp and the barrel is turned there, same with the front cap. The barrel is also turned there.
Yeah, it does get hot and stay that way.
It is full original wood. I think it is one of the most beautiful rifles going. Ok, my old Farquarson was prettier, but this one has a place in my heart.
There is no bedding for the barrel. There had been some wood placed under the midclamp on both sides. It looks dead on on the nose cap. No reciever/trigger guard bedding.
Now, on sizing, or back to the thread in a general way,
I just now tried a fireformed case. It is Wolf brand, not as thin as milsurp, but not quite as thick as the Winchester I have. The patched .315 fits in the neck with hand pressure up to leaving the last two lands out. Case friction prevents any further movement by hand.
I am thinking, if I wrap two wraps of notebook paper which gives .315-317 depending on the wrap, I can then size down to .314. Three wraps of Meade gives me .313-3135. Those shoot ok, I believe .314 will do just a tad better which is all I want.
I was wondering if JPW on the paper could replace Alox? Since I am going smokeless I am not worried about powder contamination. I have just not usd Alox yet.
Lots of room for experimentation here.
It looks like Will is getting ready to earn his stripes here.
Go for it Will you will like the results!
Paper sizing in my loads is pretty critical. With two wraps of Meade at .312, I got 20ft groups. Same as cast and sized at .311.
Now, this is .303 British.
A .308, Will will probably follow my path. His might prefer .309. Or .309-.310.
I am really looking forward to his posting his results. I have several .308's, and my venerable 03-A3.
After I dial in my Smelly, I am going to play with my 03-A3, then my two Adams and Bennet schedule 54 .308s.
Beemer, you were a daggoned big help to me. Everyone told me to get a .304 mold, and then wrap. I would not have gotten my size if I followed that route. I would never have thought of sizing to .308.
Sizing a 30 to .308, then sizing after wrapping to .311 just makes sense if it will chamber.
That is my next saga.
Again, thanks for the help.
It worked!!!!

eka
10-05-2008, 10:05 AM
If your dry patch is the size you need and it chambers, then no need to do anything else but smear some lube on and load. If you end up a little over what will chamber in your rifle, run it through the sizer. Won't hurt a thing. I run my patched boolits through the sizer and it leaves a small amount of lube on the patch. I'm still a greenhorn in the patching dept. myself, but I haven't had any problems damaging the patch when sizing it. But, I do it slowly and carefully. Not like you would if you were doing a big batch of pistol boolits. Since, you're so close, try it both ways and see if your rifle likes one or the other.

Keith

docone31
10-06-2008, 03:02 PM
Will,
I just got my care package from the Big Brown Truck.
I had previously sized my castings to .308. The three samples I couldn't wait to size were paper patched and final diameter was between .317- .318. I used two wraps of notebook paper.
A light smear of JPW, and bingo!, through the sizer. I had just gotten a Lee .314 push thru sizer.
Perfect sizing without effort! .314.
Therefore, sizing to .308, then two wraps of Meade Traceing Paper, resulting in .3125, sized to .311, you should have the same results as I did with my .314.
I couldn't even visualize it before I did it.
Bam! Badabing, Badaboom.
I got .314.

compass will
10-06-2008, 09:10 PM
So you are sizing to .308, then 2 wraps of Mead Tracing paper gives you .3125.
that comes to .002+ per wrap.

Just to see what size I need to size the boolit to, I took a couple of the ones I had sized to .310. with 2 wraps of Mead tracing paper and I end up with .318 which is .004" per wrap.

what am I doing different? My mead paper came from Walmart, it's 8 1/2 X 11 paper with 40 pages in a pad, with a brown cover. Is there different weights of tracing paper at wally world?

I did just check and found that .308 is the smallest sizer from the lyman, lee or RCBS. I might have to get a custom one cut by Lee. I do need to send to them for a special insert for my .308 neck sizing die once I figure out what size boolit I will be trying to stick into the case.

PS: Tried these boolits again this weekend without paper since I got a new scope. Bad news. I loaded 10 of each in 1/2 grain increments. What ever my lowest powder was had the best group (6") and it went bad from there. Guess I got to go the other way.

I am thinking of picking up some Unique since I read so many posts of people using this in rifle with cast.

docone31
10-06-2008, 09:37 PM
Will, meat and taters!
6" would have made me proud from my Smelly!
Wow, the paper you are using is .005 thicker per sheet than mine. Mine is kinda brown looking on the cover. I am using a cigarette roller. Possibly, that helps.
The ones sized to .310, then wrapped are too large a diameter. Most paper patchers for .308 cals, start with either .300, or .304, then wrap.
With my Meade Paper, which sounds like yours, I end up, with sizing the casting to .308, I get .3125. Possibly the cigarette roller compresses the paper tight. I then would size it to .311.
With mine, I size to .308, use two wraps of notebook paper, that gives me the .317-.318. That sizes beautifully to .314. With Meade, and three wraps on a base of .308, I get .3135.
It might be you need to get a cigarette roller. I can bang out the wraps. I set mine to dry in a 9mm ammo rack from an old box of factory ammo. I also trim my tails to size.
Keep on plugging away, it took me a few tries also.
I also use the butt end of a drill bit to bell the cases to load paper.

beemer
10-06-2008, 10:45 PM
I just measured mine to make sure. The Lee die I have sizes to .3083 and the Mead Academie Tracing Paper from Wal-Mart is .0016.Two wraps (4 layers) and the boolit added up is .3147. The paper stretches when rolled and shrinks when it dries, add a layer of LLA and it is very clost to .314 or a touch heavy. I was just wondering if the roller thinned the paper, that something I need to try.

beemer