powder burning rate question

[canuck4570]

I am waiting for my 450 rigby rifle
my question is will be trying accurate 5744, does this mean I could try safely all powder close in burning rate to this powder

imr 4227, imp 4198, reloader 7, are examples

thank you canuck

[243winxb]

Use published load data.

Burn rates are set by closed bomb testing. Powders act differently in cartridges.

[ericandelaine1975]

Use published load data.

Burn rates are set by closed bomb testing. Powders act differently in cartridges.My thoughts exactly.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[243winxb]

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b015387.pdf A very long read, but interesting.

Military - "A fourth indirect method which addresses propellant perfor-
mance is state-of-the-art interior ballistics programs. They are
now available and are being refined that calculate muzzle velo-
city from basic physics and propellant properties to about 1%."

Quickload? May help when there is no published data? Do so at your own risk.

[Nobade]

Yes, investing in Quickload is money well spent when working with cartridges outside of the norm that don't have much published data. To respond to the original question, the answer is no. 5744 is a somewhat unique powder, with very high nitro content designed to work at low load densities in large cartridges. The only other powder like that is IMR 4759. The others you mentioned have a similar burn rate but behave very differently if used like that. Be careful with your loads in that rifle, it will be a lot of fun to use but can have unpredictable results if you try to make powder do what it's not designed for.

[dragon813gt]

If you look at multiple burn rate charts you will see powders in different positions. They can’t be trusted for many reasons. The main one is there is no correlation between speed and position. This is to say that if a powder is listed one higher its “x” percentage slower. “X” could be any number. The chart simply says if a powder is faster or slower than another but does not tell you to what extent.

Quickload is a great program. But like any program it’s GIGO, garbage in garbage out. If you don’t enter everything correctly you will have an incorrect prediction. They’ve also done a poor job of adding all the current powders available. I think the program is great but it has limitations.

[canuck4570]

guys I will take your advice..... stick with publisher date from the manufacturer
my father is 99 on november 28 and I want to live has long has he
thanks canuck

[243winxb]

450 rigby.. i'm supprised its not listed here with all the other dangerous game cartridges.

http://www.accuratereloading.com

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/6431066/xsl/print_topic

[mdi]

I did a quick look-see for 416 Rigby load data, and just found one; https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/416-rigby/ No mention of 5744...

[Nobade]

450 rigby.. i'm supprised its not listed here with all the other dangerous game cartridges.

http://www.accuratereloading.com

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/6431066/xsl/print_topicIt's essentially the same thing as the 460 Weatherby. Load data is extremely close.

[canuck4570]

I have found 5744 load data and its 45gr. in the 416

has you say RARE
has for regular powder I will use Imr 7977 or 8133 for full density loads
thanks

[Larry Gibson]

It's essentially the same thing as the 460 Weatherby. Load data is extremely close.

Exactly, Lyman's #4 CBH has data.

[canuck4570]

Exactly, Lyman's #4 CBH has data.

you are saying that lyman has data for the 450 rigby or 460 wheaterby?

[rwadley]

460 Weatherby

[243winxb]

The weatherby also has about 4 1/2% more case capacity.

When I was researching reloading data for my 450 (not much available in North America so I contacted PH's & Game Wardens in various parts of Africa). Karl Stumpfe basically said you have a 460 Weatherby minus about 6%. That's what I based my load data on.
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/450-rigby-vs-460-weatherby.43019/

[canuck4570]

The weatherby also has about 4 1/2% more case capacity.

When I was researching reloading data for my 450 (not much available in North America so I contacted PH's & Game Wardens in various parts of Africa). Karl Stumpfe basically said you have a 460 Weatherby minus about 6%. That's what I based my load data on.
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/450-rigby-vs-460-weatherby.43019/

will look into that thanks

[Petander]

I'm in the same boat with 470 NE. Still searching.

5744 all the way for other big rounds here:

231015

https://www.chuckhawks.com/reduced_400_loads.htm

[Petander]

More about 5744:

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/07/accurate-5744-powder-review-accurate-arms/#axzz5XxIvRUqR

[canuck4570]

thanks guys

its appreciated you going to all this trouble to find loads

[Petander]

I just talked to Vihtavuori chief of test shooting.

He said the same about burning rate charts, they don't mean much because everything depends on everything else. Different powders are different powders.

He called me back and recommened VV N 130 for lighter bullets in 470 NE. But not below 70% fillup.

[mehavey]

Never EVER use "burn rates" to determine comparative load options.

See https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/burn-rate.763373/#post-9645651
Every factor in every one of those 1st seven little boxes comes into play.
"Burn Rate" is only one of them.

[canuck4570]

got a E-mail from accurate
Since we do not have any specific lab tested data on this caliber, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.
Caliber: .450 Rigby
Case Vol: ca 128Grains water/8.311cc
Pressure spec: <4000bar/58015Psi (CIP)
Barrel length: 24” 24” (for shorter 20” barrel reduce the velocities below by ca -4% = ca 83 Fps)
Note: We recommend using Magnum Rifle primers such as the Winchester WLRM and Federal 215
Powder: Accurate – 2700®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 89.0 grains (2100 – 2175 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 97.0 grains (2300 – 2400 Ft/p/sec) LD ca 104%
Bullet weight: 550 grains.
Start load: 82.0 grains (1900 – 1975 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 90.5rains (2100 – 2200Ft/p/sec) LD ca 102%.
Powder: Accurate – 4350®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 90.0 grains (2100 – 2175 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 97.5 grains (2300 – 2400 Ft/p/sec) LD ca 108%
Bullet weight: 550 grains.
Start load: 82.0 grains (1900 – 1975 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 91.0 grains (2100 – 2200 Ft/p/sec) LD ca 106%.

NOTES:
It’ important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend.
1. TO ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM “START” LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load.
2. CAUTION: Beware of double charging if the loading density is below 50% of the available volume.
Examples:
Ø Most Handgun caliber/powder combinations as well as
Ø A-5744 with reduced loads for rifles.

Since we do not have any specific lab tested data on this caliber, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.
Caliber: .450 Rigby
Case Vol: ca 128Grains water/8.311cc
Pressure spec: <4000bar/58015Psi (CIP)
Barrel length: 24” 24” (for shorter 20” barrel reduce the velocities below by ca -4% = ca 83 Fps)
Note: We recommend using Magnum Rifle primers such as the Winchester WLRM and Federal 215
Powder: Accurate – 2700®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 89.0 grains (2100 – 2175 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 97.0 grains (2300 – 2400 Ft/p/sec) LD ca 104%
Bullet weight: 550 grains.
Start load: 82.0 grains (1900 – 1975 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 90.5rains (2100 – 2200Ft/p/sec) LD ca 102%.
Powder: Accurate – 4350®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 90.0 grains (2100 – 2175 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 97.5 grains (2300 – 2400 Ft/p/sec) LD ca 108%
Bullet weight: 550 grains.
Start load: 82.0 grains (1900 – 1975 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 91.0 grains (2100 – 2200 Ft/p/sec) LD ca 106%.

NOTES:
It’ important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend.
1. TO ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM “START” LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load.
2. CAUTION: Beware of double charging if the loading density is below 50% of the available volume.
Examples:
Ø Most Handgun caliber/powder combinations as well as
Ø A-5744 with reduced loads for rifles.

[canuck4570]

got a call from IMR customer service

and the gentleman worn me no to use extremely slow burning powder in strait case could be dangerous they need a lots of pressure to burn correctely
they are better used in bottlenec case and since the 450 rigby has little he said could be hazardus
he told for reduce loads use Trail Boss and full loads he suggested powder in the range of imp 4350 or h4350

again I wish to thanks all the effort given to me on this subject.....

[Petander]

Yep it's good to contact manufacturers when in doubt.

I talked to a friend with 450 Rigby last night.

He hasn't done any reduced loads but he mentioned a "varmint load", pushing a 350 Hornady @ 2950 fps with Vihtavuori N140. He uses N160 for 500 grain full house loads.

[canuck4570]

will check this out

must be big varmint

[Petander]

will check this out

must be big varmint

:)

Yes, I asked about 300 m accuracy, he said it can't be fired from the bench more than once.

I can understand that - and he is a shooting instructor since the 80's.