Winchester Chambering Problem.

[Kev18]

I dont know a proper way to explain this so I made a video about it.

I guess the cartridge gets stuck on the bottom of the chamber. When I flick the rifle upwards it allows it to go in freely.
This is the only issue I have left with this rifle, I had multiple in the past but all of them have been resolved.

https://youtu.be/ETBzVd_-1-Y

[skeettx]

Youtube did not play it???

[Kev18]

Youtube did not play it???

Edited the link. Thanks!

[DrDucati]

What bullet profile? That is a common hangup. They reloads or factory ammo?

[Kev18]

What bullet profile? That is a common hangup. They reloads or factory ammo?

Flat nose, reloads they are the same as factory ammo. I have original rounds from Winchester.
https://i.imgur.com/AYN7LcZ.jpg

original factory ammo.
https://i.imgur.com/hq7ikcF.jpg

[DrDucati]

Is it hanging up on the case mouth?

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Kev18,

I pulled my 92 out of the safe & cycled it, looks like yours should work.
The carrier is raising the nose of the cartridge up to the chamber, like it's supposed to.
That 40-82 is about 2-3/4" long, I've never played with anything that long.
Maybe more crimp will help?

Sorry I can't help, AntiqueSledMan.

[jimb16]

Looks like a crimp issue to me too.

[Kev18]

I am pretty sure the factory ammo does the same thing. And they have a solid crimp. Any advice Im getting helps. Thanks!

[country gent]

Try a little more chamfer on the case mouth and little heavier crimp It looks like the corner of the case mouth is grabbing. With good ligh and a magnifying glass look for burrs dings and raised edges ( after roughly 100 years of use there may be some) that may also be grabbing. Another thing to experiment with is overall length the earlier levers were length sensitive as it also affected timing of the action everything may be right but a slightly to long round may hit before the lifter is to height to short and the lifter may raise slightly to high. You might try a dummy round loaded .015 shorter and see what happens

[osteodoc08]

First of all, that’s a really nice shooter. I love old lever actions. I’d love to hear more about it.

As best as I can tell with the poor lighting, I’d say it’s a combination of 2 things, slightly too long and catching on the case mouth. I agree with the others here. Try a more generous chafer/chamfer and seat a bit deeper. Also, how rough is the bolt face? It also looks like it’s grabbing on the case head and not allowing it to pop up. I’d check those 3 areas.

[Kev18]

First of all, that’s a really nice shooter. I love old lever actions. I’d love to hear more about it.

As best as I can tell with the poor lighting, I’d say it’s a combination of 2 things, slightly too long and catching on the case mouth. I agree with the others here. Try a more generous chafer/chamfer and seat a bit deeper. Also, how rough is the bolt face? It also looks like it’s grabbing on the case head and not allowing it to pop up. I’d check those 3 areas.

It's not to long, I just trimmed all my cases down shorter then they need to be. Maybe crimp could be an issue. Il try. I'm not sure if I tried it in the past, maybe one of the reasons I dont crimp alot is because it caused clambering issues in the first place. When the cartridge gets in the chamber, it sticks out 3/4 inch. I spent two years getting loads for this rifle and getting it to shoot straight. My fix now is to get a .406 bullet and file down the outside diameter of the starline cases. Since they are to thick.
Buffalo arms cartridges drop in just fine, but once I shoot and reload the cases, they do as described above.

And about the bolt face, I'm not sure. It seems to work good? Il take a look and snap after pictures for you guys to see.

If you or anyone wants more info on my rifle and its issues. Look at 1886 chambering issues" in the levergun threads! I got alot of help and most of it applies to all rifles/ calibers.

[Hickok]

Mike a fired case, and then mike one of your reloads around the outside of the neck where the boolit is seated.

Also mike a factory loaded round.

[osteodoc08]

Length should have been specified as OAL not trim length

[Kev18]

Length should have been specified as OAL not trim length

I know, but my OAL Is shorter. If they are to long, they wont go up on the elevator ramp.

[Kev18]

Mike a fired case, and then mike one of your reloads around the outside of the neck where the boolit is seated.

Also mike a factory loaded round.

I did that before and solved that chambering problem. Now its just that I would like to have a smooth chamber entry. Atleast I would like to work the lever quickly.

[Kev18]

Here are some more pictures.

Chamber:
https://i.imgur.com/oiaS3pb.jpg

Close-up of chamber:
https://i.imgur.com/hotRF4N.jpg

Chamber W/ Elevator ramp up:
https://i.imgur.com/5KpUP1P.jpg

Bolt face:
https://i.imgur.com/umXgcCp.jpg

Where the cartridge gets stuck:
https://i.imgur.com/KU40TX2.jpg

Bolt view of cartridge in stuck position:
https://i.imgur.com/gcJjc7A.jpg

I tried all the original Winchester rounds I had and they all got stuck. I feel like the lip on the bottom of the camber might be stopping them?
When the cartridges are stuck I only need to lift up the rear of them and they slide in just fine. Its almost as if they are to angled upwards?

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Kev18,

Is that a blank cartridge shown in the pictures, or maybe a shot cartridge?
Does that one load? If not, I'd try polishing the bolt face. And maybe the ramp sections of the carrier.

Hope this helps, AntiqueSledMan.

[Kev18]

Hello Kev18,

Is that a blank cartridge shown in the pictures, or maybe a shot cartridge?
Does that one load? If not, I'd try polishing the bolt face. And maybe the ramp sections of the carrier.

Hope this helps, AntiqueSledMan.

None of them are blanks, but I actually tried multiple shot cartridges and thats how I came to the conclusion that they get stuck alittle below the chamber on that little 2-step thing. Would it be safe to polish that alittle? or round off the edges?

[skeettx]

Give this a try, on a loaded cartridge with the decapping stem removed,
GENTLY size the loaded cartridge just a LITTLE.

It will NOT go all the way into the die,
in fact MOST will not go into the die,
but the neck portion will straighten and round out
the cartridge.

Second, on the front area of your cartridge lifter, add a bit of tape or brass shim to raise the cartridge a bit.

Mike

[DrDucati]

You said BAC rounds insert fine, but not clear to me if you also meant they cycle without the hangup? Also didn't explicitly say the shot cartridges you tried cycle or not. Check if the case mouth is hitting the lower lip of chamber or actually the bullet nose is topping out in top of chamber thus blocking further movement, which would be a length issue. Even if overall length is same as BAC rounds, reloaded seating depth with different nose profile may change the necessary OAL. Also, the round shown looks crimped shy of the end of the groove in the bullet, so there isn't a smooth transition from case mouth to projectile? Thats the impression from photo.

[country gent]

Another thing you might try is add some height to the elevator surface with layers of tape. If that cures the problem then loof to links a pins and holes with wear allowing the lifter to set "lower" than it should. Plain masking tape adds about .005 per layer. The tape isn't meant as a fix but to diagnose the problem once its determines more lift is needed then you need to start checking pins and holes for wear and bends.

[DrDucati]

I would think if the nose is entering that far into the chamber then the elevator is lifting high enough; am I mistaken?

[Kev18]

I just found the source of the problem I think. I stuck a wire cam down the barrel and it doesnt seem like there is an issue around teh chamber. The bullet tip hits the top of the chamber but thats minor. My real problem now is in the receiver. It get stuck on the little angled ramps on each side. Maybe the cartridge doesnt get elevated high enough t o engage over the little ramps? I dont know what they're called.
EDIT: The angled ramp on the left is a cartridge stop and the one on the right is a cartridge Guide.

https://i.imgur.com/kpk09E5.jpg

Cartridge gets stuck right behind them, but as soon as I push it with my finger, it slides in fine...
https://i.imgur.com/kG1ptnO.jpg

[skeettx]

Take a case and remove a LITTLE bit of the rim diameter on ONE case and let us know how that works
:)

[Kev18]

[QUOTE=skeettx;4512362]Take a case and remove a LITTLE bit of the rim diameter on ONE case and let us know how that works
:)[/QUOTE
Thats not the issue, They are getting stuck on the back side of the cartridge guide. Im not sure what a Fix could be. Maybe a quick polish if I can get them out without dismantling the whole rifle.

[country gent]

A popcycle stick with a little flitz or polishing compound worked in to it will reach in and polis surfaces. If needed cut the end to fit where you need. Literaly smear a small amount of compound on a flat steel bar and press the edge into it hard to impregnate it onto the surface then use it like a file with a light touch

[Kev18]

A popcycle stick with a little flitz or polishing compound worked in to it will reach in and polis surfaces. If needed cut the end to fit where you need. Literaly smear a small amount of compound on a flat steel bar and press the edge into it hard to impregnate it onto the surface then use it like a file with a light touch

Good tip! Id probably need to take the rifle apart one day, but not this day.

[John Taylor]

Had the same problem with mine and it turned out to be ware on the bolt rails. Allowed the bolt to tip a bit, in-turn causing the carrier to not stay up. On yours it looks like the rim is hanging up on the feed rails. The left side feed rail is also the cartridge stop. The right side moves up and down with the right locking lug. If ether one is warn or damaged it would cause a problem. Left rail is spring steel and should not ware but can be rusted. right side feed rail is sort of flimsy and could be damaged. Left side held in with one screw and can be taken out without taking the whole gun apart. Right side has a screw next to the barrel above the loading gate. Some times you can get it out after removing the loading gate and taking out the pivot screw. The rear portion on both has a ramp to raise the cartridge rim in front of the bolt face. Old guns with a lot of ware can have a multitude of feeding problems.

[samari46]

Is the cartridge pusher from the magazine touching the elevator?. In one of the pics it looks like it is touching the front of the elevator. Chamber itself looks a little cruddy. Maybe a good scrubbing will remove the crud and hopefully getting cartridges from the elevator to the chamber easier.Frank

[Kev18]

Its 1 am and I just finished putting the whole rifle together. Turns out you need the strength of a thousand gods and the luck of a **** leprechaun for the BOLT CARRIER, FIRING PIN, LEVER, and EXTRACTOR to all line up perfectly. I would of had an easier time aligning the stars to make a Winchester W than to get all of those lined up for one pin.

Long story short, I cleaned what I could, and polished the pieces that looked like they needed it. 130 years of debris and oil in there.
As for the cartridge carrier I took the screw out but it didnt fall out. I tried to lift it up abit with a screwdriver but I didnt want to break it so I left it there. The cartridge stop on the other hand just falls out easily. I feel like I would need to buff out some sharp edges on the back of both pieces but apparently 130 years ago the steel was harder then my files because they dont bite for beans! I just wanted a light layer of metal off but I guess not.

Also I took some pictures. I think the day this rifle was made it was quite special. maybe a custom order. I would need to get the CODY Museum paper for it. The rifle is far from mint but its MY rifle and I love it!

It had some case hardening on it.
Lower tang:
https://i.imgur.com/R2SQjB7.jpg

Hammer:
https://i.imgur.com/R4Quz4I.jpg

When I thought it wouldn't be THAT complicated:
https://i.imgur.com/NUjEdq6.jpg

[osteodoc08]

How does it cycle after the fluff and buff?

[Kev18]

How does it cycle after the fluff and buff?

The rounds still get stuck, il probably need to round of some edges on the cartridge stop and carrier. And the rifle itself is actually abit stiffer, but that usually gets fixed when I shoot the first shot with it. I feel like removing all the 130 year old grease and grime made it abit less smooth! before it had that as a smooth buffer. Is there any better grease/oil I could use? I feel like bearing grease would make rifles operate easier instead of Rem oil. Thats what I used.

And does anyone know how hard it would be to remove the barrel? I would like to buff out the chamber too, and it would be alot easier if I would have the barrel in-hand. How hard would it be to unscrew and line it back up straight after screwing it in?

[John Taylor]

Barrel should come off without to much effort, you will need a good barrel vice. I made up a set of V blocks out of aluminum that work great for holding octagon barrel. I use a big Crescent wrench with some heavy paper to protect the finish on the action.

[John Taylor]

Barrel should come off without to much effort, you will need a good barrel vice. I made up a set of V blocks out of aluminum that work great for holding octagon barrel. I use a big Crescent wrench with some heavy paper to protect the finish on the action.

[Kev18]

Barrel should come off without to much effort, you will need a good barrel vice. I made up a set of V blocks out of aluminum that work great for holding octagon barrel. I use a big Crescent wrench with some heavy paper to protect the finish on the action.

I saw a guy just put the barrel in a vice with wood shims or felt, and use an adjustable wrench to unscrew the receiver..

[Kev18]

Fixed My problem! They chamber super well now. :)

[osteodoc08]

Fixed My problem! They chamber super well now. :)


How did you end up fixing the problem?

[Kev18]

How did you end up fixing the problem?

Had to shorten the cartridge stop/guide. The angle on them to feed the cartridge in the chamber is way to steep, so I just cut them down at a less sever angle. To give the cartridge a chance to slide. Works great.

[725]

This is funny. Just last night I finished tinkering with my buddy's 94. Same problem but I found a solution by (after taking it all apart) filing and polishing the things on the sides (interior) of the elevator. They are held in place with a screw that is just about impossible to reach. With the spring loading door removed, you can just about reach the one side. The head of one of the screws was proud and the cartridge would drag as it started it's trip toward the chamber. The ends of each screw were as they should be, exposed to the slab sides exterior, so I just filed the interior and polished enough material away so to as allow an unencumbered trip for the cartridge. It works!

[Kev18]

This is funny. Just last night I finished tinkering with my buddy's 94. Same problem but I found a solution by (after taking it all apart) filing and polishing the things on the sides (interior) of the elevator. They are held in place with a screw that is just about impossible to reach. With the spring loading door removed, you can just about reach the one side. The head of one of the screws was proud and the cartridge would drag as it started it's trip toward the chamber. The ends of each screw were as they should be, exposed to the slab sides exterior, so I just filed the interior and polished enough material away so to as allow an unencumbered trip for the cartridge. It works!

Alot of problems can happen. My rifle is quite old so issues start occurring after a few years I imagine.

[Walks]

GEEZ,

My Buddy has one made in 1889, we had no functioning problems at all, and it may be in worse shape then yours.

You are right about taking them down and putting them back together, We planned for an hour on a Saturday after a Cowboy Match.
Started about 1550hrs, finished about 1700hrs. Two Saturdays later. About 20hrs all told.

Just don't use necked down starline brass, way too hard, since they don't anneal it before they sell it. TOO thick also. Had to turn down the necks. Decided against it as it would cost about $500 for the tools (1999).

Just bought Bertrem from Buffalo Arms, still using the same 100 cases, got 2 boxes of TEN-X and 2 boxes from a single run PMC made.

Haven't lost a single case from any of them.

And the starline .45-2.6 brass, sold 97 cases for $15 then we paid for 100.

[Kev18]

GEEZ,

My Buddy has one made in 1889, we had no functioning problems at all, and it may be in worse shape then yours.

You are right about taking them down and putting them back together, We planned for an hour on a Saturday after a Cowboy Match.
Started about 1550hrs, finished about 1700hrs. Two Saturdays later. About 20hrs all told.

Just don't use necked down starline brass, way too hard, since they don't anneal it before they sell it. TOO thick also. Had to turn down the necks. Decided against it as it would cost about $500 for the tools (1999).

Just bought Bertrem from Buffalo Arms, still using the same 100 cases, got 2 boxes of TEN-X and 2 boxes from a single run PMC made.

Haven't lost a single case from any of them.

And the starline .45-2.6 brass, sold 97 cases for $15 then we paid for 100.

It actually costs 10 dollars to turn cases down. I only needed to buy a lee 3-jaw chuck and turned them down myself.
I only have starline brass. I bought loaded cartridges from Buffalo arms and GAD customs years ago. I heard people say that if you anneal 45-70 cases they become longed when you neck them down so they are an option instead of buying 45-90 cases. Im not sure if its true though...