View Full Version : LLA observation
10-02-2008, 12:58 PM
This has most likely been covered but Ill bring it up. If you use LLA on a said bullet, lets say a normal lube grooved keith style bullet for the 44 mag. now all the lube is on the outside and very little in the lube grooves. You put the appropriate crimp on it, fire it at reasonable velocity. Dosent the crimp scape off most of if not all the lube. I havent had much luck with LLA with any kind of high velocity or high pressure. It has worked fine for real slow target loads. Am I clouded in my thinking?
10-02-2008, 01:06 PM
That's been my experience as well, with my 45 Colt loads.
10-02-2008, 02:15 PM
I don't crimp most of my bullets unless they are revolver loads. If lets say your crimp scrapes the lube off what follows? the burning powder to push it right back between the bullet and barrel. You also can "pan lube" just the grooves with Alox if you think your not getting enough lube in the right places.
10-02-2008, 03:00 PM
LLA has worked very well for me on conventional groved boolits all the way up to full power .357 Magnums. For heavy loads I generally TL twice. I have a sneaking suspicion that the most important lube on a TLed boolit may be what is on the base.( Right where pressure can blow it down the gaps if the base isn't sealing.)
I also noticed an interesting phenomenon recently when doing load work ups. I was doing all firing in a single revolver chamber and stuck another cartridge in an adjoining chamber to stabilize the extractor star. After a few shots I dumped the loaded cartrdge along with a fired case and discovered that all the LLA on the nose of its boolit had liquified from backwash of powder gases into the chamber. In any case LLA works.
10-02-2008, 04:00 PM
44mag1, I don't think the crimp has any effect on LLA. I use it on Lee TL CB's in my .44mag. and can push them to 1,000fps (8gr. Unique, 10.5" bbl., Ruger SBH) without any appreciable leading.
10-02-2008, 04:03 PM
I can see how this stuff works with tumble groove bullets, just doesent seem too for me with conventional type. I have a lee .40 cal TL mould that works fine in my 10mm as long as I dont try to push them too hard.
10-02-2008, 04:10 PM
44mag1, I also use it to hand lube gas checked CB's in my rifles (no crimp) and have never had a problem with it up to ~1,800fps. Earlier today I loaded 30 .30cal. TL (plain based) for my .30-06 (unsized, uncrimped) that will reach 1,400fps with no leading at all and group into 1" - 1.5" @ 50 yds.
I had a similar question a while back. I asked about the heavy crimp scraping lead off the bullet as it is fired. Several answers stated that chamber pressure swells up the case to chamber size just prior to pushing bullet out of the case. So that no scraping takes place as the bullet leaves the case. Made sense to me!
10-02-2008, 06:03 PM
Mdi, please explain that!
How can pressure act on brass if the boolit is in the way?
There is no way the whole case can expand until the boolit is out of the way.
Want to prove it? Shoot a very soft boolit with a good crimp. Look at the fired case and you will still see signs of a crimp after it scraped the soft lead. Yes, it will scrape soft lead smaller because the crimp DOES NOT OPEN UNTIL THE BOOLIT IRONS IT OUT.
On top of that a boolit will obturate when the pressure hits it and will expand against the brass before it leaves, also pressing the brass neck against the chamber wall. Pressure behind a boolit will not spring open the whole case all at once unless gas leaks past the boolit.
10-02-2008, 06:05 PM
I have seen fouling with other types of bullet paint. Some of it is usually left around the crimp. It is not easily removed with a case polisher, so I have to brush the neck.
In order to determine just how much or how little, I suppose someone would have to shoot an LLA-treated bullet with a heavy crimp out of a revolver without a barrel. I could actually do that with my DW revolvers, but I wouldn't want to clean up the mess or get kicked off the club range.
10-02-2008, 06:22 PM
Re; case expansion and crimps, this is what I have noticed. With taper crimped rounds such as 45acp, a proper crimp aids in case expansion/chamber sealing. Before I started using the Lee FC die, with the same exact load, I would get lots of fouling on the outside of the case if I used a light crimp with the seater die. After I started using the FCD, I found way less fouling of the outside of the case. I researched crimps and what I found was that with a light crimp, the bullet will start down the barrel before the case has a chance to expand properly and thus the fouling on the outside of the case. So, with an adequate crimp, upon ignition, the case should start expanding before the bullet starts on it's path... IMHO
ps sorry, could not find the article about the crimps and chamber sealing.
10-02-2008, 07:20 PM
Lee brown alox is the best for all cast boolits.
10-02-2008, 08:14 PM
I have always been under the impresion that the lube on a conventionaly lubed bullet was forced out of the grooves by the pressure of expanding gasses similar to pushing fluid out of a syringe. Therefore lubing the barrel until the lube ran out or the bullet left the barrel. LLA on the outside of a bullet that scapes off from the crimp cant do this. I know alot of you guys are having great results with it and Im not trying to start any fights, but these are my observations.
10-02-2008, 10:21 PM
The boolit of proper size will seal the bore and gas will not go past it. If it does, it will cut the boolit, lead the bore and give poor accuracy. Lube is squeezed out when the boolit is sized to the bore, from acceleration and G forces, the lube flowing back hard.
No one can convince me it is a sealer. Lubing the bore can be done by putting a little ball of lube on the nose. A boolit should carry enough lube to last to the end of the barrel. A lube star on the muzzle is good.
I also don't believe the lube lubricates the boolit as it's primary function. It keeps fouling soft so it is shot out and prevents lead from sticking to the steel. It also regulates friction and one lube will make a gun more accurate then another. A real slippery lube can be bad or good depending on other factors. Some are so hard that they don't do a single thing and all of the lube will be in a recovered boolit. Get harder and chunks will be thrown off making the boolit out of balance. Some shoot bare boolits without a problem. Some use paste wax.
My problem with alox is that it is a poor lube and bore conditioner, it is a rust preventative and burns at a low temperature adding to dry fouling in the bore. I get all kinds of leading with it. Mix it with beeswax and it changes the hardness like any oil and the softer beeswax is doing the work.
Some want a harder lube so it doesn't get on the brass. Let's face it, the brass does not expand to seal at the neck until the boolit is out of the way. There is time for the pressure to blow some lube back around the brass.
My most accurate loads have a LOT of lube, I don't even wipe it off the nose and my brass gets full of it, inside and out. I would not have it any other way.
I like a soft, sticky lube like Felix. It gets everywhere but I shoot thousands of times without cleaning. My guns have not been cleaned in 6 months.
After I load rounds, I have to wipe the brass off and clean the dies and even the press handle and bench top.
Will crimp stop the mess? No! Not with the right lube. I use tight case tension, oversize boolits and a decent crimp with heavy boolits. I am also shooting high pressure with hunting loads near max. I get lube halfway down the outside of the brass.
Will I change to stay clean? NO WAY will I give up the accuracy I get.
Some of you are looking for a solution for a non existing problem and might get worse accuracy in the process.
The only concession I would make would be with a semi auto to keep it functioning. But I have no use for one.
You will not believe how mucked up a revolver can get without ever having a problem loading or getting good accuracy. The right lube keeps them running like the bunny that keeps going and going. Yeah, it's dirty! [smilie=1:
Look at my avitar, those guns were not cleaned in months before I shot those groups. I only wipe off the outsides.
Sometimes you need to get down and dirty! :mrgreen:
10-03-2008, 03:22 AM
Ive tired it and never got the accuracy out of a convetional bullet using tumble lube that i got out of it using conventional lubes. Im no scientist and cant prove it to be fact but i believe the reason is that the lube thats in the grove prevents the bullet from colapsing when the pressre is peaked after the bullet hits the rifling. I do have to argue with 44man a bit. I too believe that lube is forced out of the lube grove by the fact that the back end of the bullet is trying to catch up to the front. If this is true is not the bullet riding on a thin layer of lube and if this is the case isnt the lube actually doing some of the sealing of gases. Most experienced black powder shooters will tell you that accuracy increases as your bore get seasoned with the lube your using. I believe the same goes for handguns and rifles that shoot smokeless. Again if this is the case and the barrel actually does get seasoned by the lube then theres a small amount of lube in the microscopic pores of the barrel steal and the bullet is riding on that instead of the steal so then how can that layer of lube not be helping to seal the gases?
10-03-2008, 04:56 AM
I'm having some really good luck sizing and lubing with speed green and BAC, then coating my boolits in LLA. This has eliminated the leading as I continue to smooth the barrels by shooting.
It seems like to me, that 44man is right about keeping the fouling soft so it doesn't build up and cause problems.
10-03-2008, 05:45 AM
Lloyd, I don't think the way lube really works will ever be actually figured out. You could be right and make a good point.
It is pressure that squeezes the lube against the bore but where I differ in my thinking is I don't believe it is chamber pressure but boolit pressure. And you are saying that too about the base trying to catch up with the front.
The only way I can see a lube sealing chamber pressure is to allow lead to form easier to the barrel and just thinking about that, maybe that is why we need it. It works just like lube in forming dies for other metals.
Then keeping the boolit from abrading in it's trip down the bore with a layer in the pores.
The first shot from a clean bore is usually off the mark due to no lube being forced foreward so the nose is dry lead against whatever lube is left in the bore from cleaning. However, just maybe a little oil coating the bore is just too slippery. I never chronographed the first shot, is it faster or slower? :confused:
A good way to test that would be to clean and lightly oil the bore after every shot, see how it groups and check for leading.
Anyway I can't go so far as to say the lube itself will seal chamber pressure but will say it allows the lead to seal better.
How the lube leaves a coating is important. I had a devil of a time with my BPCR using SPG. The last 10" of my barrel would be full of hard, dry ash that a patch would not push out unless the patch was wet. I tried to sell the rest at a match, cheap, and nobody would buy it. With my homemade lube I can push a patch through easy.
I feel LLA does the same thing, it breaks down, burns and doesn't leave a film of lube in the pores of the steel.
But lube is such a personal thing and differs by what it is shot with. Some love LLA snot and everyone has a favorite brand.
I have two great ideas if someone wants to bite! Transparent barrel steel so we can see, and a lead magnet! :bigsmyl2:
10-03-2008, 06:02 AM
your right about the first statement. I dont think we will ever have an answer to this question that is wrote in stone. Im far from a scientist but have allways figured it this way. The small amount of lube thats between the barrel and the bullet has got to be under tremendous pressure when a bullet it trying to expand or push into the rifling. It makes sense that that ammount of pressure could easily excede the chamber pressure cause by the powder burning and if it was at a higher pressure would block gases from pushing through it.
10-03-2008, 06:52 AM
Im sure lube can pass a bullet up in the bore coating the barrel a little too.
10-03-2008, 06:58 AM
I have modified my stance on this considerably since we as casters don't always speak the same language and I think I understand why.
It may be that the way that some folks shoot helps them to look at lube as a sealer. If that works for them, then by all means follow the logic / strategy. Because everything you do will be affected on that basis. I have even been helping folks along this same line of thought and it seems that it works for newer casters and fellas with newer guns.
What I have against calling lube a sealer is how it makes people think about other issues. Particularly bullet hardness and leading. Sealing implies that all leading is from blowby, which is not correct. Failing to understand the lubrication aspect leads one to believe that any lube that "seals" should be just as good as another. Of coarse the argument could be made that the guy believing in lubrication can be just as lost with too slippery of a lube also.
The difference between these guys? Their outlook on hardness. The velocity levels they normally shoot.
A sealer tends to be a lower velocity guy or one with harder for pressure slugs. The lubricator tends to shoot heavier loads with marginal hardness for the job.
Understanding the hardness lube equation is key to making various designs work well for you as there is a place for both strategies. Otherwise, you get pigeonholed to a particular design that tends to work for you.
10-03-2008, 07:33 AM
Lloyd and Bass, very well said.
I agree the lube takes a beating and the most important thing is how it holds up for the type of shooting each of us does.
If it was so easy to solve, there would only be ONE lube in the shooting world. But then if everything was so easy, there would only be one powder, one boolit for each caliber, one size case and on and on.
That is why I have always stressed to test lubes just like you do everything else. What works for me, might be a disaster for you.
What I like is that the amount of experience on this site gives everyone a lot to work with to solve a problem but it is still up to the fella to test each thing and not get stuck in a rut.
I am constantly testing but have found exactly what works for my hunting loads. I just don't have 100 different guns and calibers to play with. Each of us has a different problem and solution.
So we have here a very informative post and nobody should take anything at face value but has to do the work for what he wants to do.
There is no easy answer to any question because we all do things different.
But nobody can make me like alox or SPG! :mrgreen:
10-03-2008, 10:09 AM
An interesting thread, and guess I will now add my 2 cents and my experiances with LLA. First I must say, particularly with rifle blts, it has been my exeriance that they will shoot well ONCE the bore is buttered by a few shots with LLA ( 8-10 ). A bit of testing firing them after I had fired with other lubes, showed me that it took a number of shots with those lubed LLA before the groups started shrinking. This was after I had run a couple of clean patched between the different lubes. Same was true of a fully cleaned bbl. Accordingly, am not sure that I may try doing a patch with partially soaked and partially dried down a clean bore. I have had excellent luck with LLA and Lovern style rifle blts, but it took two applications which was a pain, but results were very good. Have also tried other than Lovern style blts but without great sucess particularly with hand gun blts.
Soooo-I will shoot Lovern with both LLA and LARS red and white depending on how the mood strikes me, but will only shoot other than Lovern style blts with LARs . Don't know who first called LLA mule snot, but seems like every time I screw with it, I agree with him. But I got a large jug of it (rather than pay the Lee prices), and periodically seem to have to go to screwing with it again.
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