Lubing powder Coated Bullets

[MSD MIke]

So.... This could have gone in the coatings, lube or alloy forum so here it is in the generic cast bullet section. I have a bunch of pure lead (Stick on WW metal) that I am going to cast and powder coat some bullets out of for my model 92 44 Mag. I will only be trying at 44 special velocities at this point. I am already powder coating but am wondering if there would be any advantage to traditionally lubing the bullets in addition to powder coating. Has anyone tried this or does anyone have an opinion on why this is a good or bad idea? Trying to see if it will help extend the capability of very soft bullet metal in a rifle length barrel.
I have both gas check and plain base molds (245 Gr RNFP). If the plain lead plain base works at 44 special speeds I might try to step up a little with a gas checked bullet.
So, thoughts on lubing a powder coated bullet and any experience someone might have with really soft lead in a similar application.
I'm going to give it a try and will report back but am interested in others experiences.
Before anyone says it, I'm not interested in trading my pure to a muzzleloader as I have muzzle loading plans of my own that will need the soft lead.


Thanks
Mike

[Chainsaw.]

Hmm. I cant see a disadvantage aside from time spent lubeing and the tiny cost of the lube you’ll use up. At the slower speeds your talking I wouldn’t expect much issue with just coating, the stuff is really tough.

How well is your powder.....coating? Is it going on pretty thick? If so, I personally would trying running them as is, but at the same time I wouldn’t call you a fool for lubing as well.

[reddog81]

What are you hoping to gain by lubing? The powder coating should prevent leading on it's own if done correctly.

I can't imagine it'll hurt anything, but I don't think you'll see any benefit.

[Joby]

I commonly add a light coat of BLL over my PC ed pistol and rifle boolits mainly to ease the sizing operation for my kiddos. And plenty of them are softer range lead plain base used in 357 and .40 cal loads which would have some higher pressures and velocity similar to what your planning on trying with the 44.

[Smoke4320]

You would lose the advantage of not fouling your seating die with lube, possible powder contamination (mostly hot weather/long term storage issue)

and just the general messiness of dealing with lube..

but hey its worth a try .. personally I would try a few just PC\'ed you just might be real surprised with the results

[popper]

I haven't found an overlube of alox type to do anything but keep the bore a little cleaner. If you fill the LG then the hydraulics of the lube will make the grooves (boolit) a little stronger.

[cas]

I'm casting pure lead and PC'ing it. Pushing them @1100+ fps without issue. Lately I've been lubing them as well, I figured why not? There's no extra effort, I'm sizing them, why not push the ratchet a click and get some lube too. Because of what it is, and because of current medical issues that don't allow me to shoot anywhere near as well as I should, I can't say one way or another it's helping anything, but they're not shooting any worse. I'm not doing it to all my PC'd bullets, just a few now and then for the heck of it. I would like to try a side by side comparison in something that would really show accuracy better.

[MSD MIke]

I guess my first goal in lubing powder coated bullets would be additional protection against leading with the close to pure lead bullets. Probably a solution looking for a problem.
CAS, glad to hear about your results with PC pure lead bullets. Many say if you powder coat pure lead you can avoid leading but accuracy will suffer because the alloy is to soft and bullets suffer from "Slump" and other malady's. I'm thinking a fat bullet with a stubby short nose will be less prone to this and I'll get good results. I'll be shooting these out of a Miroku Winchester 1892, the rifle provides good offhand accuracy but I have never shot it off a bench. If can get appropriate accuracy with soft lead at low velocity I will play with faster velocity and gas checks to see what the limits of the soft lead are for my application.

Not worried about hunting performance of the bullet, its just a fun gun.
I would be interested in other's experiences with PC'ing pure lead, hopefully in a pistol caliber rifle. I'll report my results after testing, hopefully after this weekend.

Thanks
Mike

[Toymaker]

I went with powder coating bullets for a particular rifle to overcome a specific issue and it worked making me very happy. This was for smokeless loads but I also use black powder loads in this rifle. Because a lube is needed to keep the BP fouling soft I powder coated, sized and lubed the bullets to be used for BP loads. The results have been beyond my expectations. So much so that I am going to begin experimenting with another rifle, different caliber, for which I load both smokeless and black powder cartridges.

[Dragonheart]

I can see no benefit of lubing a PC bullet, other than I may mist them with a 1 to 12 mix of lanolin and 99% alcohol to make sizing easier. A properly applied and cured powder coating is a superior lubricant to any grease combination; this has been proven by Federal in their tests. PC gives a gain in velocity and has less friction than lube or metal jackets, causing the barrel to run cooler; also proven by Federal. I personally have driven PC pure lead at 1400 fps with no leading and PC range lead 10-11 BHN driven to 3500+ fps with no barrel leading. Since the PC acts as a hard bonded jacket that resist the torque of spinup I suspect much higher velocities using pure lead are obtainable, so I would not worry about the 44 Mag. In fact I think I will dig out my old 44 Mag. Ruger Carbine and give it a go as it hasn't been fired in 40 years.

[Carrier]

I went with powder coating bullets for a particular rifle to overcome a specific issue and it worked making me very happy. This was for smokeless loads but I also use black powder loads in this rifle. Because a lube is needed to keep the BP fouling soft I powder coated, sized and lubed the bullets to be used for BP loads. The results have been beyond my expectations. So much so that I am going to begin experimenting with another rifle, different caliber, for which I load both smokeless and black powder cartridges.

I’m looking at doing the same as what you are. Powder coating for a trapdoor and using both smokeless and black powder. With the amount of work it took me to remove leading and **** from a 136 year old barrel I want to do everything I can to prevent any leading.
Any more information on this would be greatly appreciated.

[FredBuddy]

My Lee 150's PC'd and lubed (clip on WW) are a little more accurate
in my sewer pipe barreled 30-40 Krag than just PC'd.

Other rifle barrels seem to be cleaner.

[MSD MIke]

"Since the PC acts as a hard bonded jacket that resist the torque of spinup"
Interesting, and I think there is something to it. Not with pure lead, but I had some traditionally lubed 45 colt bullets cast from COWW that the base of the bullets were getting swaged down during seating. I powder coated the same bullet and it no longer was swaged down after seating. Interesting because the powder coating process shouldn't make the bullet any harder (possibly even softer?) yet the result was repeatable. I didn't dig into any further but may try it again just to verify my results. Any thoughts on this??
Also, many talk about bullet slump and other deformation problems with pure lead. My thoughts are that could certainly be a problem, particularly with a long small diameter bullet (Think Rifle) but that a short fat bullet (.44 & .45) would be less prone to this. Hmm, lots of speculation. I have loaded up 25-44 Special with 245 grain RNFP pure bullets sized to .432 that are both powder coated and lubed. Ill test this weekend and if results are good I'll repeat the test with no lube. If results are still good them I will bump velocity. Lol, if results are STILL good I will go gas checked, powder coated pure lead and play with mag velocities.
Gun is a newer Miroku Winchester 1892.

Thanks
Mike

[Dragonheart]

Mike, back in 2012 I was shooting a match a week in the IDPA and with practice I needed several hundred rounds a week. But after Sandy Hook the shelves went completely bare. I had plenty of brass, primers & powder, but my stash of 5K bullets dwindled quickly. It was then that a fellow gun club member showed me some PC handgun bullets that he had cast and coated using a Cool Whip container. I was absolutely amazed that the simple PC process actually worked until I remembered back in one of my college classes that lead was an unusual metal in that it had an affinity to attract an electrical charge. Rubbing the lead bullets on the plastic apparently generated enough of a static charge to attract and hold the powder. I had done some casting as a kid back in the 60's and had a box full of casting stuff in the attic, but I hated the sticky lube mess and quit casting a long time ago.

It was then in 2012 that I got back into casting and went on a quest to find as much information as I could about this PC process. So my comments regarding PC come from what I have learned from my own testing, professionals in the PC business (not bullets) which include applicators, powder manufactures tech & sales representatives, chemists, physicists, a retired PHD Chemist of Polymer Physics and especially from Charlie Darnall designer & maker of the Freechex tools.

When I found this site and others interested in PC I labeled PC as creating a Polymer Jacket. Now that Federal is making a line of polymer coated bullets they call it a "Synthetic Jacket". But what ever you choose to call it, it is a bullet jacket and as far as I am concerned has revolutionized cast bullets.

If you look at the alloy pressure tables you can see that one can shoot PC pure lead at velocities and pressures that far exceed a traditional lube. The bullet is in fact riding on the polymer jacket and it is that jacket that is resisting the torque of spinup, sealing, preventing gas cutting and protecting the barrel during its flight.

[GregLaROCHE]

You referred to stick on WW as pure lead they are harder than pure lead. Don’t worry about soft lead deforming. I don’t think if they were pure lead they would, but others will know more about that than I.
Don’t think you will need gas checks to increase your velocity. I shoot a .45-70 without GCs and it does just fine.

[MSD MIke]

Thanks, my bullet metal is SOWW with a couple of drainage spouts mixed in. I guess I'm not sure if its pure but its easy to put a deep indention in the bullet with a fingernail. So a lot softer than my COWW anyway.
More importantly, I got a window to hit the range for a bit this afternoon. I burned the 25 (Pure?) lead PC and lubed bullets and my barrel is squeaky clean and accuracy was no different than my COWW bullets that I could tell. So.. time to cast and load up some quantity and play with different loads!


Mike

[Dragonheart]

Hi Mike, I wasn't suggesting everyone start PC pure lead, my point as you found out, is the old alloy rules for lubed bullets doesn't apply to PC bullets. I shoot range scrap, which typically tests about 10-11 BHN and it works fine for everything I have done.

[MSD MIke]

Yep, I understand. For me the whole deal is that I was basically considering myself out of bullet lead unless I purchased or scrounged some harder metal to alloy my soft lead. Initial results mean I have several hundred pounds of fluxed lead ingots that will work for 70-80% off my cast bullet needs. Not a lifetime supply or anything but it will go for awhile.


Thanks

Mike