Old keith bullet

[44MAG#1]

230315

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I must be missing something, All I see is a Keith bullet that looks like it came from a Ideal or Lyman mold. I don't feel any pointed problem. Do you have a question? Did you make a previous post that I missed?

[44MAG#1]

I must be missing something, All I see is a Keith bullet that looks like it came from a Ideal or Lyman mold. I don't feel any pointed problem. Do you have a question?

Didnt ask a question. Just doesnt look like the authentic Keith bullets of today.


Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

[Outpost75]

My observations from various so-called "Keith" molds over the years.

Oldest presumed "original" Keith had front driving band north of the crimp groove, which cast the same diameter as the driving bands, typically .432" in .44 caliber, which required sizing to enter the cylinder throats.

Later Ideal #429421 molds reduced the front band diameter so that it cast about .430" from the mold, did not require sizing and would enter the chamber throats of most .44 revolvers. Later on Lyman modified the mold further and changed the lube grooves from rectangular to radiussed and the front driving band was reduced still further to drop from the mold .429- in No.2 alloy.

Older Santa Anita Saeco #441 was closer to the original Keith design but dropped .430" in wheelweights, and could be shot in most revolvers by pan lubing only, being loaded and shot as-cast and unsized.

RCBS copy was similar to the Saeco, but diameters were based on linotype and bullets dropped undersized .429- in wheelweights.

I kept the Saeco #441 and got rid of the others. I lube bullets with 1:4 mutton tallow and beeswax and most of the time shoot 7.2 grains of Bullseye for about 1000 fps from a 5" revolver, adequate for most things you need a revolver for.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I am sure it is an older style Keith. I used to have one and may still have somewhere. My newer one has a crimp grove and two grease groves.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I am sure it is an older style Keith. I used to have one and may still have somewhere. My newer one has a crimp grove and two grease groves.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I am sure it is an older style Keith. I used to have one and may still have somewhere. My newer one has a crimp grove and two grease groves.

I just went out to check my mold and it does have only one wide grease groove. I guess it is my memory. I think my Lee 44 mold has two grease grooves.

[Petrol & Powder]

From what I've read, Keith was big on square bottom grease grooves and the driving bands were close to being equal in size.

Some concessions have been made over the years but the original form is still there. A square bottom grease groove with slightly tapered sides to help release it from the mold. The meplat is still fair large for the design, the front driving band still has a fairly sharp forward edge and it's a plain base bullet.

While not exact, I think it's close enough.

I use the RCBS 44-250-K and while it isn't a perfect Keith bullet it is close enough for my needs. I can't complain with the results.
I don't shoot enough 44 to justify a 4 cavity mold but if I did, a new SAECO 441 would be my choice.

[sw282]

44MAG#1, That boolit looks just like my ''Frosty Boolits'' from a Hensley&Gibbs 250gr 44cal #503 boolit mold. Story is 0le Elmer went to Hensley&Gibbs for his KEITH design molds after ldeal/Lyman changed the grease groove from ''square to round''.
l can tell you this from personal experience. l have recovered fired Keiths with lube still in those SQUARE grease grooves...

[LAH]

From the looks it probably shoots well as most.

[Walks]

Beautiful example of a Cast bullet.

[sw282]

44MAG didn't mention what mold his Keith was from in his post... Mine is marked #503, .429'' Monteray Cal. lt casts around .430'' from the range scrap l use @257-258gr. Cast from Clip-0ns they come out 5gr lighter@252. 0thers have commented on their accuracy from the boolits l have shared with them.. l shoot more 503s than all my other 44 molds combined.. l have the Lyman Keith and also RCBS type Keiths too. The H&G 503 Keith is more accurate for ME than the others..

[megasupermagnum]

What is the idea behind that crimp groove? Is this what Elmer was talking about with his large crimp groove? It seems pointless when you can have a longer front driving band.

[44MAG#1]

Im getting ready to size, lube and load some afterwhile.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

[LAH]

It seems pointless when you can have a longer front driving band.

Could you expand on this statement? Trying to understand just what you mean. Thanks.

[mdi]

Quickest way for me to spot an "original" Keith is the square bottomed lube groove. "Modern" versions use rounded grooves to make bullet drop out/removal easier...

44Mag, no need to apologize in every post, not too many snow flakes here...:D

[megasupermagnum]

Could you expand on this statement? Trying to understand just what you mean. Thanks.

I don't have this bullet to measure, but I'll throw out some numbers to try and explain. Lets say you crimp on the bevel for the crimp groove. This design would then leave lets say .030" gap before the front drive bands starts, and lets say the front band is .080" long. I'm trying to figure out why this would be desirable, verses having a crimp groove like we see now, where the brass forms into the groove, with no gap above. This would then allow a .110" long front driving band. Does that make sense?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Saeco SWC from a 1980's Mold

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/Saeco411_zps5b97edd7.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/Saeco411_zps5b97edd7.jpg.html)

[bob208]

it could or could not be. if you ever read keith. he made a lot of designs and changed them. so it could be or not. sothe way to look at it is does it shoot good? does it take game? then be happy.

it looks like a good bullet. I would use it in a heart beat.

[LAH]

I don't have this bullet to measure, but I'll throw out some numbers to try and explain. Lets say you crimp on the bevel for the crimp groove. This design would then leave lets say .030" gap before the front drive bands starts, and lets say the front band is .080" long. I'm trying to figure out why this would be desirable, verses having a crimp groove like we see now, where the brass forms into the groove, with no gap above. This would then allow a .110" long front driving band. Does that make sense?

Been thinking about this. I picture the mouth of the case coming to the bottom of the front driving band when it is crimped. Conventionally speaking this is deep as you can seat if you use the crimp groove. If you can't seat that deep when crimping then the design would be faulty by your explanation. All my Keiths are seated as I described above.

[44MAG#1]

Been thinking about this. I picture the mouth of the case coming to the bottom of the front driving band when it is crimped. Conventionally speaking this is deep as you can seat if you use the crimp groove. If you can't seat that deep when crimping then the design would be faulty by your explanation. All my Keiths are seated as I described above.

Just dont over think this. It is a one cavity mold. I have shot some of them. I dont intend to use these bullets except for nostalgia purposes and therefore it is no big deal. It is an old mold. Therefore it needs TLC. I have two H&G 503 molds and they are different from one another. I have the H&G 326 mold too so I am well set plus I have an NEI 260-429 mold. Plus an LBT "Keith".
Just for nostalgic purposes is what this mold is for.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

[LAH]

Just dont over think this. It is a one cavity mold. I have shot some of them. I dont intend to use these bullets except for nostalgia purposes and therefore it is no big deal. It is an old mold. Therefore it needs TLC. I have two H&G 503 molds and they are different from one another. I have the H&G 326 mold too so I am well set plus I have an NEI 260-429 mold. Plus an LBT "Keith".
Just for nostalgic purposes is what this mold is for.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

Not over thinking this. Just getting the picture of what megasupermagnum said.

[Walks]

I think we have to consider that Keith started his casting from single cavity molds with integral handles.

It's easiest to get a single cavity mold to release then any other type.

And Keith merely took another older design and put a crimp groove at the bottom of the front driving band.

There are so many variations on the Keith "bullet" that it hardly matters any more.
I have a RCBS #430-245-KT and a pair of LYMAN 2CAV #429421 molds, one bought in new 1976 and the other used about 8-9 years later. Those last 2 put out slightly different bullets. So 3 molds & 3 different bullets.

Doesn't seem to really matter much. I just make sure to sort properly when I cull the bullets cast from the 2 LYMAN molds.

[LAH]

Good point Walks.