Annealing via finger method - sources of heat?

[MOC031]

So I've always annealed my cases (although my annealing sessions are infrequent) via the method of rolling them between my fingers over a candle flame until too hot to hold comfortably.

Faced with the need to do a mass annealing session once again, I thought I would ask if anyone is using a cleaner source of heat than a candle (other than a propane torch). It's no biggy, but I would like to minimize the case cleanup after finishing.

Has anyone tried either a heat gun or an alcohol lamp? Thought I would ask before experimenting with something others here have almost certainly tried at one point or another.

My heat gun has a claimed temp of 1110 F. on the high setting; I have no idea what the flame temp of an alcohol lamp is versus a candle.

Anybody already traveled this road before I thought to try it?

[John McCorkle]

2 questions

Is there a particular reason a propane torch is out of the question? I've used it for a long time and they are cheap (especially looking at the hardware stores around black Friday I bet you can get a kit for under 20 dollars for the bottle, torch, striker, and other accessories)

Do you have a battery drill? (Or corded power drill shouldn't make much difference)

I chuck a 3/8 drive adapter into the drill then top it off with a deep set socket just barely large enough to fit the case I'm annealing for in...

Wad up some tin foil at the bottom of your socket to bring the neck of your case up to the level you need exposed above the mouth of the deep set socket...ie how much neck you want to anneal...

Get a bowl of water and your torch...spin the case in your drill (it doesn't need to spinning fast...slower is better but the idea is just rotation not speed) and hold it over your torch...do it in a dark room.

Once you see your dull red color drop it in the water (quenching makes no difference on non ferrous metals buy does make handling hot metal alot easier and cleaner...no or reduced risk of setting a towel or carpet ablase)

I get consistency in annealing every time and if you already have the tools on hand it's rather cheap in comparison to other annealing methods

The socket protects the case body and base from getting too hot and just the neck gets annealed....I can turn out alot this way in a hurry

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[MOC031]

Thanks for the reply John.

I personally don't like the propane torch method because I believe it's too much heat too fast when manually handling cases to detect when the heat is right i.e. too hot to hold comfortably. I realize this is a contentious issue sort of like "what's the best oil for my motorcycle", but I picked up my annealing method following the article by Fred Barker or whatever his name was a few decades ago. It works for me when I do anneal, and I just don't want to muck around with what works for the amount of annealing I do. I don't doubt other people believe they get better results/faster results doing it some other way; I'm just happy with what works for me.

I spin the case by the base while lightly holding the case in the middle with the fingers of my other hand, if that makes any sense. I'm aware of the drill and deep socket method, but judging colors wasn't something I wanted to get into when the finger sensor method has worked quite well for me so far. If I ever started doing a lot of annealing, I'd just fork over the dough for one of the machines.

Anyways, that's the basis of my question about other sources of heat that would be at least a bit cleaner than a candle flame.

[John McCorkle]

Yup I get you...and there is likely a certain amount of metalergy I don't understand here if slow heating (ie candle or low temp flame) or high temp flame like torch delivers more or less heat (un desired) to the base...I know most annealers do one or both things from what I can tell:

1)Shielding the body and base from exposure to flame

2) heat sink at the body base to wick thermal energy out of the portion you'd like to keep at a higher hardness

Are you able to get the necks hot enough to reach critical temp while holding them? I know copper (core component of brass) is the second most thermally conductive metal (second only to silver and if I remember not by much) but not sure what the thermal conductivity of brass (with the alloy of zinc) is

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[Stephen Cohen]

I turn the cases by finger in the flame of my propane torch using MAP gas, I do believe that one needs to get the case neck up to temp quickly for best results, when I feel the heat getting close to what I feel is enough I drop cases into a bucket of water with citric acid added which pretty much removes any discolouration . I then polish cases with oooo steel wool. I only anneal my cases at the same time I trim to length and deburr and uniform primer pockets. I have never lost a treated case to splitting so I see no reason to change. Regards Stephen

[dragon813gt]

Annealing is not a contentious issue. It’s based on scientific facts. Time and temperature are what’s required to anneal brass. I will stop here because people like to ignore simple facts when it comes to annealing.

[Screwbolts]

Post #7 is one of the most accurate post I have ever had the pleasure to read!!!

I have finger rolled the cases for years using a propane torch. I simply hold the case so the mouth is higher and count the seconds as i have it in the flame. If you anneal in a dark room with the lights off to start you can see the color change much quicker and wont over heat the necks. After establishing the proper count to anneal the cartridges in hand then turn the lights back on and anneal away to the standard you already set. Also with the lights off you can better see the flame and determine the proper place for yourself to hold/roll the case in the flame.

I find finger rolling the cases works well for my needs on everything I have from 22 Hornet to 50 BMGs

For myself finger rolling the cases is ideal, using a propane torch!

Ken

[lightman]

I bought an annealing machine about 10 years ago because I got tired of my new unfired Winchester 223 cases getting split necks on the first firing. I shoot enough 223 that it got to be too much work annealing by hand. Before that I dipped them in melted lead. I would pick up a case, dip it into light weight machine oil, dip it into the melted lead, could one thousand one, one thousand 2, ect ect for a few seconds and drop it on a tray and grab another.

[country gent]

Maybe one of the specialty butane lighters for a grill with the long end on it would do what you want. Would be a controlled flame and lower temps than the torches. A little stand made for it and some way of holding it on.

[OldBearHair]

This is only my opinion. I think that whatever method you use to rotate the case, it is the amount of time that it takes to heat the neck that counts. The slowly heated neck allows the heat to transfer down the case. The hot torch quickly heats up the neck to proper values and dropped into water to stop the transfer of heat. You can see the darkened area on the neck if it is done correctly, and if you can hold it with your fingers to do so, I salute you. So How say you? Some of the automatic annealing machines will rotate a brass into position into flame from three propane burner tips for a measured amount of time then drop the case into water.
I sure like the "John McCorkle" method Post #2 Thank you

[Texas by God]

Mapp or propane, roll case in my fingers till I feel the heat, drop in water. Right or wrong, works for me.

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[gwpercle]

Mapp or propane, roll case in my fingers till I feel the heat, drop in water. Right or wrong, works for me.

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My method also....set the lit torch in a holder on the bench , lights dim so you can watch colors, roll the case between thumb and fore finger in the flame point ...drop it into a pail of water when it gets to the correct color or the case gets hot on the fingers. Overheating is to be avoided, you can always anneal again.
Gary

[fralic76]

I have been thinking of trying this out. But not sure how big I need to go. This 1 is only 120w. Found it by googling induction brass annealing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181107/ab2545055e6e872a2c57f6e68e3ee3ad.jpg

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[fatelk]

The proof is in the pudding. I also anneal by rolling the case in my fingers over a propane torch. It’s quick, easy, and works well for me. It really doesn’t take long to get a feel for how much to heat the neck. I was taught to stop right when it turns that straw color, just before it start to glow. I usually anneal in low light.

[MikeN]

John Barsness has a good article on annealing in the June/July 2017 issue of Handloader. John likes to use the hand held candle method also. He makes reference to using Tempilaq 750° paint to get his timing right and bingo. You see the use of Tempilaq 750° mentioned in many different things I have read on annealing. Why guess at the temperature by using color etc?

[fatelk]

How does the candle thing work? It sounds like it would be really slow, compared to propane.

I’ve never used tempilaq, couldn’t bring myself to spend $40 for it when what I do now works so well for me. I’m not a serious bench rest/precision shooter though. If I was it might be a different story.

[sutherpride59]

I have been thinking of trying this out. But not sure how big I need to go. This 1 is only 120w. Found it by googling induction brass annealing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181107/ab2545055e6e872a2c57f6e68e3ee3ad.jpg

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If you get the induction heater set up and it works well you should make a write up on how you put it together. Looks like it would be a little easier and cheaper set up than a torch or open flame for those of us that only get a couple months a year where the weather isn’t terrible.

[oso]

I like alcohol lamps. Easy to make: small glass jar, punch hole up in center of metal lid, about 1/8 inch cotton cord for wick. I use HEET for fuel (cleaner than ISO-HEET or 91 per cent rubbing alcohol.)

[OldBearHair]

Hey Fralic 76, I liked that so well that I ordered one that is to be delivered on the 16th. and not directly from China. Ordered a 4 step pulley that came from England or somewhere over yonder. Supposed to get here October 20 and I still don't have it. Just not right.

[OldBearHair]

Hey Fralic 76, I liked that so well that I ordered one that is to be delivered on the 16th. and not directly from China. Ordered a 4 step pulley that came from England or somewhere over yonder. Supposed to get here October 20 and I still don't have it. Just not right.

[John Boy]

Once you see your dull red color drop it in the water
Brass cases are annealed when the metal turns to a bluish-green color which is between 625-650 degrees. Then just lay them on a cotton towel, not in water, and let them air cool

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

It's nice to find something we can all disagree on!

[dragon813gt]

Brass cases are annealed when the metal turns to a bluish-green color which is between 625-650 degrees. Then just lay them on a cotton towel, not in water, and let them air cool

They don’t have to air cool and they don’t have to be dropped on water. Either will work and the end result is the same. Quenching then does not change the grain structure.

You can not rely on color change to anneal. But, and there’s a but here, if it turns red you most likely ruined the case. But since people don’t like use a temp sensing paste they have no way of knowing if they did or didn’t.

[fatelk]

You can not rely on color change to anneal. But, and there’s a but here, if it turns red you most likely ruined the case. But since people don’t like use a temp sensing paste they have no way of knowing if they did or didn’t.

I'm not an expert or a metallurgist, and I am open to learning. I've found that the color the brass will change seems to depend on the brass. Wet tumbled brass doesn't change the same color. I just anneal in low light and watch for a change in the brass, just before it starts to glow. If it glows it's too hot, but with practice you can tell just when to stop. It's always worked well to me.

That's how I do it anyhow. It's worked for me but as I said, I don't claim to be an expert. I could easily be wrong. I'm just too cheap to spend money on sensing paste. :)

[KenT7021]

I use 650 degree Tempilaq to anneal cases.I drop them in water.I read somewhere that quenching is necessary,probably in an NRA publication.

[dragon813gt]

I read somewhere that quenching is necessary,probably in an NRA publication.

Quenching is not necessary. All it does is stop heat from migrating further down the case and allow you to handle them immediately. If you allow them to air cool the results will be the same.

[fralic76]

Hey Fralic 76, I liked that so well that I ordered one that is to be delivered on the 16th. and not directly from China. Ordered a 4 step pulley that came from England or somewhere over yonder. Supposed to get here October 20 and I still don't have it. Just not right.Let me know how it works for you. I'm not sure if 150w is enough.

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[MOC031]

I like alcohol lamps. Easy to make: small glass jar, punch hole up in center of metal lid, about 1/8 inch cotton cord for wick. I use HEET for fuel (cleaner than ISO-HEET or 91 per cent rubbing alcohol.)

How clean are the cases compared to the use of a candle (I assume that was your first attempts at annealing)? My life isn't ruined by the soot left by a candle, but if there's a cleaner method for about the same price, I'm all for it. I did think of firing up my backpacking stove and trying that out on some range scrap for comparison as well. I would just have to dig down through everything now in winter storage to get at it.

And then there's stuff like this:

YaeTek Alcohol blast burner brass alcohol lamp blow torch 250ml

https://www.amazon.com/YaeTek-Alcohol-blast-burner-alcohol/dp/B0757MQK15/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1542126075&sr=8-20&keywords=alcohol+burner

[MOC031]

It's nice to find something we can all disagree on!

Yeah, given the past history of annealing threads here, that did kind of enter my mind when I started this thread to ask about alternative heat sources.

It's kind of like the "What's the best oil for your motorcycle" threads on different forums.

[oso]

An alcohol lamp is cleaner than a candle depending on the fuel used. The YaeTek is overkill, I use less than an ounce (30 ml) of HEET for annealing 80 - 100 of my reformed case necks.
Search "adiabatic flame temps" of different fuels, or just "flame temps" for more info on open flames than you want to know.
My back packing stoves provide more than the focused easily approachable flame of an alcohol burner wick or candle wick.
I use a shell holder in an electric screw driver to turn the neck in the flame while monitoring the shell body with a finger.

[MOC031]

An alcohol lamp is cleaner than a candle depending on the fuel used. The YaeTek is overkill, I use less than an ounce (30 ml) of HEET for annealing 80 - 100 of my reformed case necks... I use HEET for fuel (cleaner than ISO-HEET or 91 per cent rubbing alcohol.)
Search "adiabatic flame temps" of different fuels, or just "flame temps" for more info on open flames than you want to know.
Thanks for that. Amazon sells assorted alcohol lamps for not much more than pocket change; I'll give that a try as the cost leads me to prefer a nice glass purpose built rig over a do it yourself job. I have seen a fair number of guys using self-built alcohol stoves made out of tin cans doing dual sport gravel road motorcycle touring over the years.

Just curious... As best I can figure out from web searching HEET has become kind of a generic term over the years (I've been driving diesels for 30+ years so I'm not familiar with gas line anti-freeze). Apparently the yellow bottle HEET is primarily methanol and the red bottle is primarily isopropanol. I gather you're buying the methanol version?

And I'll do that flame temp search just to satisfy my curiosity...

[oso]

You gather correctly, I use methanol. Any cheap, handy and dry (IIRC it will absorb atmospheric moisture so keep it sealed) methanol works for me.

[blackthorn]

Annealing case necks by dipping them into molten lead that is held at about seven hundred degrees ‘F’ works well. Wheel weight alloy, which is approximately eighty-nine parts lead, one-part tin and ten parts antimony, melts at six hundred and nineteen degrees ‘F’ so you can safely set your lead alloy temperature at seven hundred degrees ‘F’. The use of a thermometer will take any guesswork out of the process. The reason for using lead for annealing is to keep the temperature low enough for proper uniform annealing, and that is simply not possible using the torch method. With a torch the case is often heated on one side more than the other, temperatures are not readily repeatable from case to case, and in falling over into the water, one side is quenched before the other.

To minimize the likelihood of lead ‘soldering’ itself to the brass case it is best to use as close to pure lead as possible (although any lead alloy will work). Anneal your cases with the fired primers left in, as that forms an airlock that keeps lead away from the inside of the case. With respect to annealing cases using molten lead, basically you: set the thermostat on your pot at seven hundred to eight hundred degrees ‘F’ pick up each case by the head and dip the neck of the cases about a quarter-inch into some powdered graphite or light oil (vegetable oil is fine). The oil keeps lead from sticking to the brass but, any lead that does stick is easily removed by a quick twist in steel wool while the case is still hot. Shake off any excess oil, dip the neck, shoulder, and about a quarter-inch of the case body into the molten lead and just as you begin to feel an uncomfortable degree of heat in your fingertips, drop the case into water. If you hold the cases in some other way than with your bare fingers, leave them in the molten lead from eight to twelve, but not more than fifteen seconds. When the case is hot enough that the lead does not cling to it, it is annealed. Pull the case up out of the lead, tap on the side of the case to remove any bits of lead (if the lead is really sticking, the case isn't annealed!), then drop it mouth down (straight) into a container that is mostly full of ice water. Following the anneal, it would be wise to closely inspect the inside of the case both visually and with a bent paper clip just to make sure there are no lead drippings adhering to the inside the case.

If you are left-handed, have the cases on the right side, the lead in the middle, and the ice water on the left. The cases go only one direction, to the left, and you use only one hand. If you are right handed, reverse the set-up. Because it only takes a few seconds per case, you can anneal hundreds of cases in an hour with this method. After the annealing process, remove the cases from the water, shake them out and use a piece of bronze wool to clean the annealed portion. This removes any residual lead and/or burned oil. Then, dry and tumble the cases to remove any traces of residual oil and they are ready to process.

[OldBearHair]

Well done tutorial Blackthorn. Thanks

[john.k]

I didnt believe the candle flame story,not enough heat,I thought.............however the first case I tried ended up so soft it collapsed in the lee collet die.......But it is slow,and does leave the cases black.......Alcohol lamp would be better,but still doing cases one at a time....So ,IMHO ,you cant beat the old way of cases in water ,heat with a torch,tip over into water.You can easily do fifty every couple of minutes. That would take 1/2 hr with a candle or lamp.