Is my alloy to hard for whitetail?

[guywitha3006]

I have never taken a deer with a handgun and I am hoping to this year. I plan to use my 629 classic, 44 mag this year if given a shot under 50 yards. The bullet I have is the Noe htc432-265 (if I remember the number right). On a random thought moment I tested some of my cast and sized (and powder coated) and they tested way harder then I expected. I used a cabin tree tester and after testing a few I was getting .082-.087 so my guess is 15/16 brinell hardness. I am launching these at an estimated 11-1200fps.

So will this be suffienct for Wisconsin whitetail(assuming good shot placement)? Or should I cast some softer bullets this weekend (season is the weekend before thanksgiving). So I need to get this figured out quick so I can make sure I have a few to practice with and figure out where they hit. Or am I just totally overthinging this?

Thanks in advance!

[guywitha3006]

Just a clarification I filed the powdercoat off the nose before testing.

[mart]

I didn't find that number in NOE's list so am not sure of the profile. Your bullet is plenty hard for whitetails but even with no expansion you'll have a minimum of a 44 caliber hole through the vitals and that's significant. Add to that the additional trauma wide, slow cast bullets seem to generate and I'd say don't worry about the bullet hardness. Focus on laying a good egg and keep your sharp skinning knife handy.

[Texas by God]

mart is spot on. Put it where it needs to go and the deer will die.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[guywitha3006]

Sorry it is Noe HTC-263 WFN. That is kind of what I was hoping with the nice fat flat point.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37_486&products_id=3796

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I don't see a problem with hardness, and personally would be more concerned with the shape/profile of the bullet!

I shoot a Wide Flat Nose cast bullet profile in my .44 and 45/70 for one reason, cast bullet expansion is always and forever reliant on bullet hardness and impact velocity.

Therefore I attempt to take the need for expansion out of the equation with the large meplat of the WFN bullet profile.

Have taken a goodly number of deer (also 3 elk) with the 45/70 using a WFN cast bullet (alloy 50/50 wheel weights/lead quenched) and last Fall two deer with the little RUGER 77/44 rifle, both of which dropped where they stood with a 280gr WFN (clip on wheel weights quenched)at a muzzle velocity of 1750fps.

This Fall I may well be packing my recently scoped RUGER RedHawk with it's 5.5" barrel and a velocity much more likely in the 1200 - 1300fps range, but also with a Wide Flat Nose cast bullet.

An interesting read would be Veral Smith's book (LBT - Lead Bullet Technology) about casting and cast bullet performance in which he speaks of the common thought that the typical .44 Semi Wad Cutter bullet will cut a 44 caliber hole because of it's sharp full dia. shoulder. Veral says that is incorrect due to the fact that the meplat, flat nose of the semi wad cutter, causes a flow of liquid/tissue back from the flat nose that prevents the sharp full caliber shoulder from ever touching tissue.

I can't say if Veral's statement is true, but he does have a much greater level of experience in such area then most of us, and the Wide Flat Nose bullet profile which he is at least partly responsible for developing has VERY WELL proven itself highly effective.

So, all that to say this, in your situation providing your not casting with an overly hard alloy I'd be much more concerned about using a good large meplat/Wide Flat Nose bullet, relying on the large meplat to do the work and not the iffy possible expansion. If the WFN profile bullet expands, so be it, but I'm not relying on it.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[DougGuy]

Have you tried 50/50+2%? This with soft lube is awful hard to beat for a hunting boolit. I like to be able to scratch it with a thumbnail.

As mart said, it's already 44 going in and any alloy put in the boiler room and out the other side is going to fill your freezer regardless of expansion.

In reference to Crusty's comments about the expansion in front of the shoulder of the boolit, I think it needs more than handgun velocity to achieve that.

Personally I will take the widest meplat I can get, and I try to load where the boolit hits hide right above the speed of sound. 1140-1180fps at the point of impact is ideal for thin skinned game.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I see that you posted a link during the time I was entering my comments.

Although I'd prefer a slightly larger meplat, you should be in the ball park.

Bigger is better, and again referring to Veral's comments, he said that the full wad cutter bullet profile is the most effective cast bullet profile.

However the problem is stability at much beyond typical paper target handgun ranges. The Wide Flat Nose bullet profile was his attempt to provide as large of a meplat as possible all while providing bullet stability beyond typical paper target competition distances.

The result was the WFL and LFN (Long Flat Nose) bullet profiles that have proven to be highly effective on game.

Good luck on your hunt. Be safe and enjoy!

Dougguy, I'm not saying that there is expansion in front of the semi wad cutter shoulder, what Veral is referring to would be a "slip stream" of tissue and liquid caused by the bullet nose that prevents the sharp full dia. semi wad cutter shoulder from ever touching tissue.

I am in full agreement with your comment about the "widest meplat" you can get!!!!!!!!!!

CDOC

[Screwbolts]

I agree with the 3 post above, what they said!

[DougGuy]

I am in full agreement with your comment about the "widest meplat" you can get!!!!!!!!!!

CDOC

This is my deer gun these days. I like to get in woods where it is super thick, get in a climbing stand above a point where deer trails converge. Shots are often less than 20yds, I launch Veral's 250gr WFN boolits right at 1200fps at the muzzle. So far I haven't harvested Bambi with this pistol, but for the way I hunt I won't need more than what it is capable of, and if a black bear decides I am lunch, it will prevent that as well..

Medium framed Vaquero in 45 Schofield:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Blued%20NM%20Vaquero/DSC04976%20Custom_zpsr686bkvr.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Blued%20NM%20Vaquero/DSC04976%20Custom_zpsr686bkvr.jpg.html)

These are 250gr LBT WFN-PB and 250gr LBT WFN-GC and 250gr LBT OWC from Montrana Bullet Works in BHN12 alloy with RandyRat TAC1 lube.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Dougguy,

I started using the "heavies" meaning cast bullets of over 300gr in my RUGER BlackHawk Hunter and soon found that they caused enough recoil to damage the base pin (pin that the cylinder rotates on) and the cross spring loaded retaining pin. Never had a problem with the bullets in the weight range you show!

However, the RedHawk is one really tough handgun and takes a lick'in and keeps on tick'in with not a sign of any adverse effect from a steady diet of LBT 310gr at 1300fps from the 5.5" barrel.

I'd like to take a deer this Fall with the RedHawk, but will be shooting bullet weights more in line with yours.

Getting a bunch of age under the belt, I find that shooting full house .44 mags loads just not as much fun as they were in years past. Even with mounting a scope on the RedHawk, it still rocks and rolls!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that not even with the 310gr LBT. [smilie=l:

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[guywitha3006]

Thanks guys for the advice. I was thinking meplat was going going to have a bigger effect then alloy. Next batch i do plan to go softer similar to dougguy's recommendation with pewter to get fill out. But I'm not sure when that will be, if you guys would have said I'd have had poor results id force myself to get out to the garage and cast something softer but these should work this year and then I will burn what I already have coated plinking before next season. I powder coat all my cast boolits so I have some wiggle room for softness, I may try 30:1 or similar to see how the shoot because I bet they would expand at that velocity as well. We'll see how it goes this year.

[DougGuy]

CDOC, same here bud, I used to use a 320gr Lee C452-300-RF over 23gr of 296 in my old Vaquero, and it would draw blood if I shot it bare handed. I chrony'd the load at 1200fps out of the short barrel. The 250gr boolits I posted in the pic @1200fps are very sensible in recoil vs. velocity, it is downright pleasing even with the cheese grater grips, not sharp at all. Snappy, but not near the punishment of even the 310gr Lee in 44 magnum.

I just don't care for that kind of recoil anymore, and nothing that lives within 4 states of me will survive a two-holed poke in the boiler room or the CNS with that Schofield.

Back to the OP's original question, there is not such a thing as too hard an alloy to take deer. I will suggest though, that BHN12 alloy with soft lube will take to the Ruger rifling like a duck to water. This is a perfect match for the Ruger barrels. If you can scratch it with a thumbnail, and it is sized slightly greater than the groove diameter when it gets to the forcing cone, you will have great success with it.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hey there guy with the 3006,

Again, being the Ol'Coot I see no need or reason to use extra tin or pewter.

According to the Lyman cast bullet book, clip on wheel weights have a nominal .5 percent of tin. With my 465gr WFN bullets I cast for the 45/70 I use the 50/50 - WW/lead - alloy which puts the tin percentage well below the .5 percent. They still cast with excellent results running my alloy at about 650 - 700 degrees.

So, to me and after casting thousands of bullets with just plain old WW, and although I have tried adding tin, I can see NO advantage! Once the mold is broken in they cast just as well one way or the other.

With other then my 4 cavity 45/70 mold where I use a different alloy and just the one mold, I typically cast with a minimum of 2 - 4 to 6 cavity molds and most of the time with three molds running. Hand dipping from a 40 - 45lb pot and using a Rowel bottom pour ladle.

Still no need seen for the added expense of tin or pewter as my molds cast just fine with the plain old clip on Wheel Weights.

And the WW or 50/50 alloy sure put the critters on the ground! Both water quenched.

Again, enjoy and be safe!

CDOC

[waksupi]

To visualize how a flat point bullet performs, drop a flat rock into water. Observe the cavity that is produced before the water flows back level. That is what we get with a proper bullet. The "splash" effect.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Good illustration, Thanks!

CDOC

[sixshot]

Waksupi just nailed it! If you're getting good accuracy with that alloy don't worry about anything but bullet placement because you'll be eating backstraps. And you won't find the bullet!

Dick

[white eagle]

Guy
if you hit where you aim that is what kills deer
not the bhn of your alloy not the meplat of your boolit
all of that is secondary to accuracy
go forth with confidence knowing you are accurate

[kingrj]

Do NOT worry about expansion of large diameter cast bullets..worry about the diameter of the meplat...You will not likely get much expansion with any cast bullet at 1000 ft/sec velocities so you cannot make a bullet too hard unless you need to swell up the base due to a too tight cylinder throat or something like that...That flat nose profile does the killing...

[Smoke4320]

Put in in the heart and or lungs and you will have dead deer ..

[pls1911]

A wide flat nose or swc will slap 'em flat.
As stated above, with porpoer placement, harness doesn't matter much with bullets that big...
Think "Daylight Transfer" factor.

[bowhunter]

a 44 caliber projectile is larger in diameter than any 7mm can ever hope to expand to. so for deer it don't matter about lead hardness. it is all about location, location, location, of the boolit,,,,,,,,,,,,

[megasupermagnum]

a 44 caliber projectile is larger in diameter than any 7mm can ever hope to expand to. so for deer it don't matter about lead hardness. it is all about location, location, location, of the boolit,,,,,,,,,,,,

A large meplat on a 44 bullet is what, .320"? You don't think a 7mm bullet can expand wider than that?

[jonp]

A large meplat on a 44 bullet is what, .320"? You don't think a 7mm bullet can expand wider than that?

I am also wondering at this comment. Was it in reference to a cast boolit only?

[bowhunter]

if it dose expand much more than that it ain't enough to matter. my point is a 44 hole through a deer in the right place is all that will be needed, no expansion is necessary,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[megasupermagnum]

if it dose expand much more than that it ain't enough to matter. my point is a 44 hole through a deer in the right place is all that will be needed, no expansion is necessary,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Sure, the bullet the OP is talking about is just fine cast hard. A 7mm rifle bullet often expands to 1/2", sometimes larger. That is significantly more than a 44 caliber hard cast.

[bowhunter]

well I guess if you want to be precise and measure from peddle to peddle of the jacket of an expanded 7mm of some brands of projectiles they will be larger than .430 with that said,,,,it is still boolit placement no matter what,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[mattw]

My deer pistol of choice is my old 657 (41 Mag) with a 235 Keith or 275 WFN. Both have been responsible for deer and I would not worry about either. I do like the trajectory of the 235, in case I have to take a 90 to 100 yard shot.

But, the question at hand is are bullets to hard. Years ago, right or wrong, I settled upon 94/3/3 for my alloy of choice. It fills out moulds very well, it is hard enough not to deform the nose in rifles and questionable semi-auto pistols and the bullet flattens but does not come apart. I do not have a hardness tester, but... they are hard. If I want harder they get water dropped and sized soon after. I do make softer bullets for self defense and true low velocity target shooting.

[jonp]

it is still boolit placement no matter what

Best bullet in the world won't do any good if it misses