30-30 Case sizing issues (Runout)

[hylander]

Excessive Runout.
On just the case and the loaded cartridge.
I do not have this issue with any other cartridge.
Been reloading for almost 40 years.
I have tied to narrow down the issue but so far have failed.
Some cases come out fine, less than .002, but most hover around .008 and up to .015
If I use just the Die without the button, they come out fine at less than .002, most at .001

What I have done so far,
One step at a time:

New press
New shell holder
New dies, RCBS standard, RCBS Cowboy, RCBS/Redding combo with carbide button.
New carbide neck size button
Free floated the neck stem.
5 different case lubes inside the neck, RCBS roll on, Redding wax, Mica, Redding dry lube beads, two other dry lubes.

HELP!

[Greg S]

Is this factory new brass, once fired or multipule firings?

Same brand/lot of brass.

If factory cartridges, any remaining. Check also.

Neck wall thickness on affected cases.

[OS OK]

What about the cases?
Mixed headstamps...
Have they been loaded several times?
Are some of them more work hardened than others?

You've certainly tried to resolve the problem but my first thought is..."What results do you get with a fresh set of 'annealed' same headstamp cases?"

Have had the same results with the .308W. ... tried turning the case 180º and running it a second time and sometimes it would bring the RO down to .002 or .003" ... sometimes not.
I did polish the button though and use the graphite & beads method. It's messy using the Imperial Sizing Wax so I would apply the graphite first, wipe the outside of the neck clean and then apply the sizing wax, that kept things clean.

[hylander]

All cases do the same, new/once fired/any brand/any headstamp.
Also, I checked some factory loaded Winchester rounds and most of them have excessive runout.
Checked my 30-06 and 6.5 Creedmoore and they are less then .002 loaded.

[OS OK]

And they do that with all the different die sets too?

I'd hate to say that it is directly related to neck thickness inconsistencies, that would be, in my mind...an unusual situation for all the various cases to be affected in the same manner.
I'm fresh out of ideas...this is a bit of a mystery to me...this will be a good thread to follow, I would like to see what the resolve is.

Sorry I'm no help!

[quack1]

[QUOTE=hylander;4479380]Excessive Runout

If I use just the Die without the button, they come out fine at less than .002, most at .001


Since that works, I'd try sizing them without the button, so that you aren't pulling the case over the button. Then put the button back in the die and expand the necks by pushing the button through. Just run the case in the die enough to have the button go through the neck and no farther. Then check your runout. Yes, an extra step, but you can get crooked necks by pulling the button through. If you still have excessive runout, then I'd measure neck thickness all the way around the neck and turn if necessary.

[ShooterAZ]

Try adding a rubber O-ring under the die lock nut. Adding the o-ring allows the die to float and self center in the press. I had the same problem a couple times, and once it was the shellholder. The other time the problem was resolved by the o-ring.

[uscra112]

Button isn't centered in the neck.

[Char-Gar]

expanding buttons that pull up and through sized neck, unless their alignment is perfect, which it never is, will pull the necks out of alignment with the case body. Size you cases and then expand with a seperate die, like the lyman M-Die. RCBS makes a 30 cal expanding die with replacable spuds of different diamters.

[bob208]

check the shell holder for a pice of dirt not letting the case in all the way.

[nvbirdman]

Maybe try a Lee collet sizer die. Neck sizer only, but squeezes the neck around a spindle.

[CamoWhamo]

Have you checked your runout guage is not faulty?

[hylander]

expanding buttons that pull up and through sized neck, unless their alignment is perfect, which it never is, will pull the necks out of alignment with the case body. Size you cases and then expand with a seperate die, like the lyman M-Die. RCBS makes a 30 cal expanding die with replacable spuds of different diamters.

I have both those expander dies and same issue.


CamoWhamo
Have you checked your runout guage is not faulty?

Two seperate gauges, one RCBS and one Redding.
Checked other calibers and they are good to go.


nvbirdman:
Maybe try a Lee collet sizer die. Neck sizer only, but squeezes the neck around a spindle.

Going to order that next.
But I will need to FLS first because this is a Lever Action.

[Char-Gar]

I would suggest you use a tubing micrometer and measure the thickness of your case neck walls. Most are not the same all the way around, that is why bench resters turn their case necks. You may find your biggest problem comes from necks of uneven thickness.

[Texas by God]

How do they shoot? Is your 30-30 a bench rest gun? Now I want to drag out my runout gauge and see if my 30-30s mimic yours. Both of mine (lever and bolt action) shoot very well with plain reloads.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Sorry, I missed where you said it was a lever action. Maybe all 30-30 brass is by nature out of round? If it groups well, I'd not sweat it--but it is interesting to know. Are rimmed rifle rounds by nature prone to runout?

[hylander]

How do they shoot? Is your 30-30 a bench rest gun? Now I want to drag out my runout gauge and see if my 30-30s mimic yours. Both of mine (lever and bolt action) shoot very well with plain reloads.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Sorry, I missed where you said it was a lever action. Maybe all 30-30 brass is by nature out of round? If it groups well, I'd not sweat it--but it is interesting to know. Are rimmed rifle rounds by nature prone to runout?

Reloads are not consistent in accuracy.
Not a bench rest gun but should do less than 3" at 100yds.

[Bird]

I would suggest marking the cases each with their runout, and also the high points on the necks. Segregate the brass into relative runout amounts, and shoot them. Then resize as before and check the runouts again. They should be the same amount as previously recorded. If they are not, then the problem is in the resizing, reloading, or measuring method. If the runout is still the same as before for each case, then the problem is most likely in the neck thickness. Either keep the brass segregated, or ream, or turn the brass necks to the same thickness.
30-30 brass is cheap, mass produced, and over the years quality has dropped. It does not take much for a cartridge to go bang and kill a deer at a 100 yards or so distance. Over the years playing with a win 30-30 lever action, I went from 3'' groups down to 0.7'' at 100 yards with 6 to 10 shot groups. I wish I could still see to shoot that well. I used just about every trick in the book to do it. I did test for cartridge runout, but in the end I stopped bothering with that. Any brass that repeatedly shot badly got culled. If you have 2 thou runout that should be fine. 8 to 15 thou is bad, and should not be in the neck thickness, but rather a bent neck or a collapsed shoulder, or even a crooked rim in a tight fitting shell holder.
The Lee collet die help a little for accuracy, but after 3 firings I had to full length resize brass. Always got best groups on second firing after annealing cases. Biggest gains to accuracy was mods to rifle, which started out as a carbine. Next biggest gain was bullet type. For target shooting I use hornady 168hpbt over w748 powder, loaded 1 in the chamber.
If your 2 thou runout cartridges are shooting 3'', the problem is not with the runout.

[indian joe]

I would suggest marking the cases each with their runout, and also the high points on the necks. Segregate the brass into relative runout amounts, and shoot them. Then resize as before and check the runouts again. They should be the same amount as previously recorded. If they are not, then the problem is in the resizing, reloading, or measuring method. If the runout is still the same as before for each case, then the problem is most likely in the neck thickness. Either keep the brass segregated, or ream, or turn the brass necks to the same thickness.
30-30 brass is cheap, mass produced, and over the years quality has dropped. It does not take much for a cartridge to go bang and kill a deer at a 100 yards or so distance. Over the years playing with a win 30-30 lever action, I went from 3'' groups down to 0.7'' at 100 yards with 6 to 10 shot groups. I wish I could still see to shoot that well. I used just about every trick in the book to do it. I did test for cartridge runout, but in the end I stopped bothering with that. Any brass that repeatedly shot badly got culled. If you have 2 thou runout that should be fine. 8 to 15 thou is bad, and should not be in the neck thickness, but rather a bent neck or a collapsed shoulder, or even a crooked rim in a tight fitting shell holder.
The Lee collet die help a little for accuracy, but after 3 firings I had to full length resize brass. Always got best groups on second firing after annealing cases. Biggest gains to accuracy was mods to rifle, which started out as a carbine. Next biggest gain was bullet type. For target shooting I use hornady 168hpbt over w748 powder, loaded 1 in the chamber.
If your 2 thou runout cartridges are shooting 3'', the problem is not with the runout.

Bird - please - what mods to the rifle? I bet there a whole mob of blokes would like to hear that.

[Bird]

Bent rims. Put the cartridge in the shell holder and chuck it up in a drill. I use the lee case length gauge trimmer shell holder and lock stud. You will soon see if the rim is bent.

[Bird]

Indian Joe,
I should have said mods to a carbine, that is, I made it into a rifle. The carbines are notoriously difficult to get to shoot well and consistent, although they can be improved upon. The correct shooting technique with the carbine will yield better results than any mods that can be done to it. The octagonal barreled rifle is by far a better starting point for accuracy than the carbine. I will do a better write up of my experiences with the 30-30 when I have a bit more time.

[atr]

I clean the inside of the necks with a bronze rifle brush before I run them through the dies. That tends to eliminate the button pulling excessively on the inside of the neck.

[FredBuddy]

I posted some time ago about the same issue and other issues, too.
After much reading and fooling around, I got a NOE expander plug
that measures .313 x .309. First, the boolit sits in the stepped up portion
nice and straight. Second, a .310 boolit, while being seated still has neck tension,
but seems to stay straight as it eases down to its final position.

The frosting on the cake comes with the Redding Taper Crimp Die !!!

These 2 tools, along with Outpost 75's advice to get a more suitable
boolit mold, have resolved most of my issues with 6 different 30-30's.

One of these days I'll finish my report about this 2 year journey.

[nvbirdman]

If the Lee neck sizing improves things but you still need to set the shoulder back, look around for a 32WCF sizing die without the expander. That will reset the shoulder, but will not affect the neck. Then you can run it into the Lee neck die.

[indian joe]

Indian Joe,
I should have said mods to a carbine, that is, I made it into a rifle. The carbines are notoriously difficult to get to shoot well and consistent, although they can be improved upon. The correct shooting technique with the carbine will yield better results than any mods that can be done to it. The octagonal barreled rifle is by far a better starting point for accuracy than the carbine. I will do a better write up of my experiences with the 30-30 when I have a bit more time.

Hmmm,
The front barrel band seems to be major culprit with the carbines - thin barrel - heavy magazine tube - its all tied together way too tight up front - the couple I had shot side to side ok - (maybe 2inches) but strung shots vertical eight to ten inches at 100yards - 30/30 was worse than the 375/BB.

I bought a project gun off a blanket at a ML shoot one time - pre 64 action and some bits with a heavy stubby barrel from a 308 target rifle fitted - I finished it up as a trapper length short rifle with no front attachment at all - that one didnt walk its shots but I never fitted it with good enough sights to really wring it out either.

I have a commemmorative 38/55 now (24inch barrel rifle) that is a really nice shooter and the magazine attachment up front is quite loose - the front dovetail is not a dovetail at all just a straight slot that functions as a recoil lug, the magazine cap pin into the barrel stops mag from wobbling side to side too much - it looks "cheap" compared to the older guns but works a treat.

Built a 38/40 model 92 two years ago, 26 inch half octagon barrel - I used cheap chinese curtain rod for the magazine tube - it comes plastic coated, correct inside dia for a 44/40 or 30/30 but very, very thin wall - that one is a good shooter cold to hot too.

Look forward to your writeup some time . [smilie=s:

[HangFireW8]

I've been getting rid of expander balls, or using minimal sized ones (that barely kiss the neck) for this reason - runout.

For 30/30 I had a custom button size die made out of a regular die, that's essentially a Redding "S" Full Size die. I also bought a Redding FL body die to get along with it, since the custom die didn't leave a nicely shaped shoulder. Then I finish it off with a NOE expander in a Lee expander die.

Runout problems solved.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Some time ago in a wildcat I was playing with, the expander / depriming stem got loose and screwed itself longer and longer, to the point that it hit the case web and got bent. THAT will cause nasty runout, as in 20 degrees or 30 degrees. OOPS! Fortunately I could fix those easily enough before fire forming time and they worked well, but dang that was an annoying lesson to learn. Also did break the depriming pin, if that happens please DO check your expander / depriming stem for straightness (If it looks like a dog's hind leg, you have a problem.) Doubt it's the problem here as multiple expanders cause the issue; Someone may not have hit this yet though.