I'm losing steam trying to develop accurate cast 9mm.

[marek313]

I started casting and reloading in 9mm and i went through bunch of powders, projectiles, different COL, crimps etc but i dont think I will ever get it to be as accurate as other calibers. Yesterday i tried new load with 3.8-4.2gr of Vectan GM3 under Lee 356-125-2R and i was getting about 3" groups @ 7 yards. My other loads produce about 2" groups maybe a tad smaller but its still not what my RIA Tac Ultra in 10mm can do or even my Ruger GP100 MC. My best 5 shot group from RIA ended up being under 1".

To compare I shot my 9mms (Canik TP9 SFX , P320) on steel 10" target with 3" free hanging bullseye @ 25 yards standing two hand grip unsupported. I could hit bullseye but not consistently with my 9s. I changed to my RIA and I shot 11 bullseyes in a row before I missed one and that wasnt a one time accurance because I was getting 5 , 6 shot strings without a miss all day long. I was having so much fun with that gun I shot all my cast 40 and 10mm ammo I had with me. I just couldnt believe the difference. I guess I kept thinking a lot of that was me but now I'm starting to think thats not the case. I dont know if I could do better shooting 9mm FMJs.

I'm not one to give up and I've been working on 9mm for a while. Every time I go to the range which is at least once
a week I have a new 9mm batch to test. Sized to .3575 PCed and water dropped I'm guessing BHN around 16 or so. Slower powders seem to be more accurate with HS6 being most accurate for me so far. I also tried TG, W231/HP38, WSF, Unique, HS6, Power Pistol, AutoComp, Vectan GM3. I still have Vectan A0 that i didnt try yet so thats next.

I'm not looking for any specific tips here i think I went through them all so I'm just venting at this point.

As time goes by I'm starting to think that if you want really accurate handgun you need a solid 1911 or a good revolver with a fairly heavy bullet. 9mm just wont do that especially with cast but maybe its just me. I dont know [smilie=b:

[sureYnot]

There's always that one more thing to try. Don't give up. Taking a break is fine... For as long as you need. If you never give up, you never lose.

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[Grmps]

9mm has a tapered case, the major cause of failure is over-crimping and downsizing the boolit.

1 slug the barrel or chamber cast and find what you're dealing with I have a 1911 Llama that slugs out at .358 so it requires special size cast.

I use the Lee powder through die to open the case and bell the mouth.

I seat and crimp with one die, crimping onto to the point where when the cartridge is pushed against my bench the boolit doesn't move then I use the Lee factory crimp die to just barely kiss the case to smooth the crimp (I pull and check to make sure I'm not downsizing the boolit.
I have had good results with 9 mm BE 3.8 grn 125 grn (Which is below Lyman low safe amt) YMMV, don't try any posted data without confirming it's safe with a published loading manual.

[Nobade]

I have discovered if I use as big a diameter bullet as will chamber, a compressed load of slow powder (currently 10B101) not resizing the cases, and a taper crimp to hold it together and feed right has made a big difference in the accuracy of my 9mm ammo. And I use that same Lee bullet you have.

[Petrol & Powder]

The 9mm Luger seems to be one of the more difficult cartridges to mate with cast bullets.
Personally I have found that the pistols are as much of the problem as the cartridge. The barrels and chambers are all over the place in terms of dimensions.
The 120 grain truncated cone [TC] profiles work well in a lot of 9mm pistols. The groove diameter of the barrel and the throat are also critical factors.

I don't think the powder type is as important as bullet diameter and COL when it comes to short range accuracy. If you're having problems at 7 yards I would suggest looking at factors other than powder type.

I load cast bullets for the 9mm but I gave up on trying to load cast 9mm bullets for more than one pistol. It was just too frustrating to find the compromise between two or more pistols.

Pick ONE 9mm pistol, pick ONE bullet (I would suggest a 120ish grain TC) slug your bore and size your bullets appropriately (you'll likely find the bore closer to .357" than .355" !).
Then pick ONE powder. Then play with cartridge overall length and find what feeds in that ONE pistol. (The 9mm doesn't tolerate deep seating well - stay on the long side)
THEN, fine tune your powder weight within accepted published limits.

Your goal is to end up with a cartridge that feeds in your pistol, delivers the best accuracy, cycles the action reliably and does all of that within accepted pressure limits.

With ONE pistol and ONE cartridge, it's possible to find that compromise.

GOOD LUCK !

[dansedgli]

I cast 122 flat points using a magma mold. Hitek coated range scrap sized to .3575 in my cz shadow 2.

This was shot at 50 yards. That's a 4 inch black circle.

228924

They shoot tighter in my 38 super 2011. I love them.

[Meatpuppet]

I have found across multiple 9mm platforms, that .357 dia coated projectile is your friend (and just kissing the case mouth closed to .379). Vectan Prima V is a pretty good powder also. But I mainly use it for 9mm/147gr loads.

[wv109323]

Have you tried jacketed bullets? What are the results with them?
What is your bore size? Some 9mm need .359 boolits.
You may not be neck sizing the brass large enough and the cast boolit is being resized during seating. Factory dies many times are too small for fatter cast boolits. Also you may be crimping too much and resizing your boolits.
Back up to about 15 yards and see if any of your boolits are keyholding.
I don' the think your problem is powder related.

[kungfustyle]

Does the gun shoot jacketed well? I feel your pain. I've been using these for my 38/357 and 44 mag from this same company: http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RZD&Category_Code=ZBJ-9MM at $.10 each its hard to beat.

[megasupermagnum]

I did help out a family member running into the same problems with 9mm. He didn't mess with cast bullets, but still had problems with jacketed bullets. My usual fixes did nothing for him. He was already more meticulous than I usually get in brass prep. I also find best results with heavier bullets, and figured a 147 grain with bluedot would work. Nope, and not 800x either. I looked through my bin of powders, and decided to have him try Unique. It turns out a 125 grain .356" HAP bullet with Unique is the winning combo for him, about 2" at 25 yards off a rest. Note that all .355" bullets were terrible, on the order of 6" at 25 yards. If you are not shooting rested, you can't compare consistently what the gun can do. If I missed it, are you shooting only one 9mm handgun or multiple? If it's only one, consider a problem with the gun. This same family member fought a Glock 34 until he found the sights were moving. A red dot on top fixed it, but it still wasn't that good. I think he found that combo of HAP and Unique with that gun, before selling it. His next one shot almost anything well, but the HAP and Unique were still #1. Sorry I can't help with anything cast specific. I'd take a look at brass sizing bullets down, or maybe try air cooled bullets (they could be a lot harder than you think). I know in 327 federal I've been trying soft 20-1 alloy, and plain base almost always gets sized down by the brass. I bought an expander plug from NOE .001" over bullet diameter, and and that works well.

[sureYnot]

I bought an expander plug from NOE .001" over bullet diameter, and and that works well.

OVER diameter? Pooh. I just ordered one .001 under. Seemed like the thing to do. Guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed.

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[megasupermagnum]

Yes, NOE recommends .001" over diameter, and that has worked OK for me. Also consider that there are both pistol and rifle plugs. As far as I'm aware, the only difference seems to be that the rifle plugs have a longer straight section. For 9mm, I'd get a .359" pistol plug to run .358" cast bullets.

[P Flados]

OK, I am going to re-post my same response that I made to another thread.

Take your time and read it. Then do it. As corny and funny as it may sound, it is probably the best solution.



9 mm can be very frustrating. Do not let that put you off. The solution is simple. There 10 easy steps to the 9mm.


Step 1: Try what you have and what you think might work. Take notes. You might get lucky.

Step 2: If step 1 did not work, tell us exactly what you did.

Step 3: Sort through the 50 suggestions, pick one.

Step 4: Try it and hope you get lucky.

Step 5: If it did not work, tell us exactly what you did and what happened.

Step 6: Sort through the 40 suggestions. Pick a new suggestion.

Step 7: Try it and hope you get lucky.

Step 8: If it did not work, go back to step 5.

Step 9: After you get something that works, assume you are an expert and provide suggestions when some else shares their problems.

Step 10: After a bunch of newbies ignore your suggestions, come to understand that the 9mm is too finicky to ever be simple and work the same way for anybody else.

[hlvabeach]

Pull one of the rounds you loaded and mic it. I bet you the lead is too soft and is getting sized down when you are seating. This will cause keyholing and accuracy issues.

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[Texas by God]

My Quest for an accurate 9mm cast load is temporarily suspended while I'm back to enjoying the easy-to-get accuracy of the .38 Special and the .45 ACP. Just yesterday I shot up some 200swc/5grs Red Dot loads in my crunchy-triggered Ruger P97. Yep; easily chewed up a 1" targdot at 30 feet two handed.

[country gent]

My only 9mm is a Berretta 92, accuracy was always lackluster to say the least. jacketed and cast both. I tuned on the pistols fitting and trigger it got a little better but nothing near what my 1911s in 38 spl, 48 super,10mm and 45 were capable of. With lead it was a chore to clean also. ( I was shooting laser cast bullets). This was with the standard .355-.356 dia bullets. I was in cabellas and grabed a box of the 125 rn bullets wasn't paying attention and got the .358 dia ( actually measured .3585) these shot exceptionally well over a charge that just reliably functioned the pistol.

[P Flados]

My Quest for an accurate 9mm cast load is temporarily suspended while I'm back to enjoying the easy-to-get accuracy of the .38 Special and the .45 ACP. Just yesterday I shot up some 200swc/5grs Red Dot loads in my crunchy-triggered Ruger P97. Yep; easily chewed up a 1" targdot at 30 feet two handed.

My experience with the 9mm was different (remember step 10). Leading was terrible, but accuracy was good. Heck, even with leading the Glock 17 seemed to shoot as good as I could squeeze off rounds with the mushy "Glock trigger". Eventually after getting to step 8 a few times, I tried some suggestions that worked. Now, all is good.

[sureYnot]

Yes, NOE recommends .001" over diameter, and that has worked OK for me. Also consider that there are both pistol and rifle plugs. As far as I'm aware, the only difference seems to be that the rifle plugs have a longer straight section. For 9mm, I'd get a .359" pistol plug to run .358" cast bullets.What about tension, though? If it's over diameter, you're relying on crimp alone to hold the boolit in place.

Edit: Well,I might still be ok. Grove diameter is .3564, I size at .358, and ordered a .357 plug.

[popper]

Try some decent 115 fmj. As posted, 9 guns are all over the place.

[tomme boy]

One thing no one here has even mentioned and it plays a bigger role than anything and effects everything.

Case length!

9mm case length is all over the place. If you truly want a accurate load then sort your brass by manufacturer and then trim them all to the same length. That is the only way you are going to get the same crimp every time. And the same headspace every time. And the same bullet release every time.

[megasupermagnum]

What about tension, though? If it's over diameter, you're relying on crimp alone to hold the boolit in place.

Edit: Well,I might still be ok. Grove diameter is .3564, I size at .358, and ordered a .357 plug.

Because of brass spring back, a .001" over size plug allows the brass to settle at the right size for good tension. I don't know about 9mm, but the regular expander plug that came in my 357 mag Lee set is a .357" plug, so you shouldn't be too bad.

[sureYnot]

Because of brass spring back, a .001" over size plug allows the brass to settle at the right size for good tension. I don't know about 9mm, but the regular expander plug that came in my 357 mag Lee set is a .357" plug, so you shouldn't be too bad.I hope so. Not sure how much more the chamber will let me get away with.

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[tazman]

I am not going to give specific data but will tell you that the accuracy you seek can be achieved. I have three 9mm handguns that can do exactly what you ask.
Two are Springfield Range Officer 1911 pistols and one is a S&W 929 revolver. All three can shoot whatever you can hold it with ammunition tailored to the gun.
Just keep plugging away. You will find the combination that works.

[Lloyd Smale]

I ran into a problem back about 20 years ago when I first started loading 9s. I did it on a progressive press and got dismal accuracy at best. Got looking at my ammo and found slight bulges on one side of the brass on many of them. Come to realize I was trying to load fast and wasn't making sure I started the bullets straight in the case. Small cases like 9s 380s .25 acp ect are real prone to this as the bullets are small and with my big club fingers it takes a conscience effort to slow down and start them in straight. For the most part start with a hard bullet. The harder the better and the biggest size that will reliably chamber in your gun. make sure you gun is not damaging the bullets on there trip up the feed ramp into the barrel. Also you cant expect the first bullet you try is going to be a tack driver. Try a few more different molds. Two ive had real good luck with is the 115 and 120 rcbs round nose molds. Not the one with the shoulder they advertise as a comp bullet that cuts a clean hole in paper. that 120 has been hands down the most accurate 9mm bullet across the board in all the 9s ive loaded for. Sucks that its a 2 cav mold but I just bought two and cast them at the same time.

[Forrest r]

wst & aa#2 are your friend when it comes to accuracy in the 9mm.

I've reloaded the 9mm's for more years than I can count. Always used a .358" bullet, +/- 12bhn alloy,a larger than factory expander, seated the bullet in 1 step & taper crimped in another, always used a 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's taper crimp. 2 of the bullets I used for target work.
https://i.imgur.com/V87WlTN.jpg

What your don't see in that picture is bullet bulge/wasp waist. That small discoloration on the case mouth is what's known as a 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's taper crimp. You never said what brand of dies your using to reload your 9mm's with. In the past I've used rcbs & lyman, now I use a set of lee dies for the 9mm & 45acp. I like their taper crimp dies (not the fcd die/a real taper crimp die). What I don't like is the lee expanders. They are designed for the short, smaller in diameter jacketed bullets. A factory lee 9mm expander next to a custom expander I made.https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg


Neo makes excellent custom expanders or the lyman m-die is another good option. Not only is the cases not being opened enough for the larger diametered bullets. The factory expanders don't go deep enough and this affects the most important part of the bullet, namely the bullet's base. Deform/swage the bullets base & the party's over. A lyman m-die with the step built into it that allows the reloader to start the bullet strait when seating it.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

A factory lee expander next to a lyman m-die. I lined them up so that both expander end at the same place. You can see a ring on the lee expander that the brass left (high water mark). The lyman m-die goes +/- 50% deeper into the case which ='s protecting the longer cast bullet's base.
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

Taking a good look at your reloads is always a good thing. That 35870 hb bullet (red) pictured above in range brass.
https://i.imgur.com/tsDXsGi.jpg?2

Time to pick thru the reloads and make 2 piles. 1 pile to test and the other to shoot dirt clods @ 10 paces.
#1 never should of been used, too scratched up/work hardened/reloaded too many times
#2 wasp waist on 3 bullets/difference in brass/work hardening of the brass/too much neck tension veration
#3 reload has 2 issues both #1 & #2 listed above
#4 more wasp waist
#5 excessive wear on case mouth, bad for consistent neck tension & taper crimp
#6 Case never should of been used the ring on the web of the case was caused from case bulge from being fired in a unsupported chamber.

Look at the reloads in the "good" pile and read the head stamps. You'll find the majority of them will be the same 2 or 3 brands. Anymore I only use ww/fed/cci/speer 9mm brass.

Take your 2 piles of sorted reloads and test them for accuracy. If you test the "good" & the "culled" reloads & it doesn't matter on the targets. You have other issues going on that need to be addressed. Testing 9mm loads, a 50yd 10-shot group with that 35870hb bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

A chronograph is always a good thing when your testing reloads for accuracy. A 44mag target.
https://i.imgur.com/M7vPrDi.jpg

I know, what does a 44mag have to do with the 9mm. Well, I was testing home swaged bullets trying to find an alloy that would hold together in the +/- 1100fps range. I used junk/plinking brass which affects the es of the string. If you look at the #'s & the holes in the target they look correct. Slow bullets hit high/fast bullets hit low. When you test your reloads on paper over a chronograph you should see the same thing. If you don't somethings wrong.

There's cheap/free 9mm brass everywhere. Be selective in what you use when it comes to accuracy. If you don't will make the same mistake I did with a 357. Bought a new 686 a couple years ago and started working up loads for it. I had already went thru my 38spl brass the year before and thinned the herd. Accuracy came easy with the 38spl/686 combo, typical 6-shot groups @ 50ft.
https://i.imgur.com/vrmI4za.jpg

Started working on 357 loads and kept getting this junk for 6-shot groups @ 50ft.
https://i.imgur.com/6uProUP.jpg
After the 2nd range trip it hit me, junk brass. So I went thru all the 357 brass I had and tossed most of it and ordered 2000 pieces of 357 brass from starline. The groups immediately went to bugholes with several 357 loads.

Long winded, ya.
But put everything together and you end up with loads that will hold the x-ring. 10-shot group @ 50ft from a nm 1911/9mm
https://i.imgur.com/N6XBlbc.jpg

[wbrco]

Watching this thread. Having all the same issues.

Finding articles that say 9mm needs hard lead and only enough powder to make the action function.

Doesn't jive with the "only hard enough for no leading" that is extolled for other cartridges.

I've slugged, and bore is .357 and shooting
.358 boolits.

Lee 358-125 RNFP so lots of bearing surface.

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[Dusty Bannister]

Are you using mixed cases, seating to the crimp groove, or seating the bullet out to nearly touch the lands?

[popper]

If it won't shoot good factory ammo well, it won't shoot cast well either. Remember, 9mm (should have) has a tapered chamber, tapered case (factory) and tapered case wall. One of the reasons harder alloy is needed. Sizing die generally make strait wall cases. Longer expander spud is needed to get the inside of the case to proper dimension for larger cast boolits. Just a lot of dimensional stack upp that we have to overcome to get proper performance. Then there is the problem that barrel dimensions are al over the place. Yes it is more difficult to reload cast in 9mm but it can be done.

[marek313]

Thank you for all the responses. Looking at everyone's impressive targets now I see that its not the caliber but my rounds that still need work so back to the drawing table. Reading everyone's posts made me reconsider few obvious things i missed and should have thought of before. Actually couple are down right "DUH go back to fundamentals dummy" kind.

I'm using Canik TP9 SFX and full size Sig P320 for these tests and both guns appear to pretty much perform exactly the same. Doug here reamed Canik's throat so I could load .357 which alone made a huge difference in how this gun shoots now. Both guns shoot fine with FMJs as far as I remember but next time I go to the range I'm going to bring some FMJs to compare.

Here is a big one i think that i should have spotted before. I keep reloading random 9mm range brass with random head stamps. I need to stop doing this and take time and sort it all. I can see how crappy brass would throw flyers so this is a big one on my list.

Another big one that I havent looked at in a while which couple people pointed out is COL or is it OAL lol. I have been seating at around 1.100 for a while now because I had feeding issues with my Canik early on but I got that resolved. I installed lighter recoil spring, firing pin spring, trigger spring etc so now it cycles everything same as my p320. Couple people mentioned COL so I'm going to try seating longer. Added to the list.

I size to .3575 and my pulled bullets were the same size so I'm not resizing at this step here. I know this point is important so I checked that before multiple times before but not recently so I'm going to recheck that again. Added to the list.

Part of the problem is the fact that right now I only get to shoot on the weekends and since some liberal neighbor decided to complain so now we lost 15 yard range which was shut down and 25 yard is packed on the weekends so I'm lucky if I get a spot. I'm not aware of any places around me that allow reloads so you have to love New Jersey [smilie=b:

All I wanted to do is vent a little about this stupid 9mm :killingpc

I appreciate all the suggestions though. Definitely feel like I missed couple obvious ones here. Back to the drawing board :coffeecom

[trixter]

To compare I shot my 9mms (Canik TP9 SFX , P320) on steel 10" target with 3" free hanging bullseye @ 25 yards standing two hand grip unsupported. I could hit bullseye but not consistently with my 9s. [smilie=b:
I am just curious, why you want to hit bullseyes at a distance so far away from the target? ( really not trying to be a smart a**, Just want to know. )

[Char-Gar]

One thing no one here has even mentioned and it plays a bigger role than anything and effects everything.

Case length!

9mm case length is all over the place. If you truly want a accurate load then sort your brass by manufacturer and then trim them all to the same length. That is the only way you are going to get the same crimp every time. And the same headspace every time. And the same bullet release every time.

This is very true. I sort by head stamp and then measure them and shoot from one uniform in length batch. I shoot 124 grain cast lubricated bullet (NEI mould). The alloy is wheel weight with a little tin.

I load to 1,000 to 1,100 fps with either Bullseye (3.5 grains), Unique (5.0 grains) or AA5 (5.7 grains). I taper crimp the bullets. The sizing diamter is either .357 or .358 and the COAL is 1.090". I don't have a preference between these 3 powders as they all seem to preform the same. I buy Bulleye and Unique in 8 pounds cans two at a time and am working on my last 8 pounds of old Israeli made AA5. AA5 is a good powder,but I won't buy it again for there is nothing it will do that either that Bullseye or Unique won't do as well. Being a ball powder it measures very smooth and might be a good choice for guys will Dillon progressives. I load on turrett presses.

I have fired these rounds in several American and Euro 9mms and this load yields accuracy equal to or better than factory ammo. All the pistols and my Chicom Uzi run these loads without a burp.

Doing the above, I have not found the 9mm difficult to load with cast for accuracy and dependability.

The pistols are as follows;

P.08 (Luger) 1913 DWM
Browning HP (post war) three of these
Sig P230
Smith and Wesson 59
Smith and Wesson 39

I have a Glock 17 and a Glock 19, but only shoot factory ammo in them. They are social weapons and not range toys.

[marek313]

I am just curious, why you want to hit bullseyes at a distance so far away from the target? ( really not trying to be a smart a**, Just want to know. )

I was just using that as comparison. Its not something that i need to do since most of the time we shoot local steel plate competitions at 10 - 15 yards so its more speed then accuracy. I just think that my guns should be able to do that if I take my time.

I havent been shooting for years and years like many here so I'm still working on shooting handguns accurately but it feels like a waste of time trying to work on your grip, trigger etc if the gun I'm using is not accurate. Was that last miss on me or the gun?

Looking at everyone's targets it looks like I should be able to shoot 3" at 25y. I realize some guns are more accurate then others and i dont feel like my rounds are completely inaccurate as they group ok I just need to eliminate all the wild flyers I'm getting. After reading all the posts and letting all that digest little bit I'm starting to lean towards cr@p brass throwing my accuracy off. I'm going to sort some of my loaded rounds to see if headstamp has anything to do with it. If that doesnt change anything I'm going to play with COL next and load them longer next time. I really want to go to the range now. You guys def got me thinking now :veryconfu

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd like to go back to your first post OP, the part where you said you were shooting groups offhand, and not getting the accuracy you felt was enough. There are people who can do this, however I don't know them personally, and neither do you.

Let me say this and I am pretty sure everyone will agree,, You can't shoot groups off hand at 7 yards and expect to test accuracy that way. There are too many variables. In order to effectively test accuracy you must eliminate as many variables as possible. Like by shooting the gun off a Rest would be a good place to start?

If you had shot groups with all those powders and boolit combos off a rest, I think you would have probably seen a big difference in your results.

All the suggestions in this thread are perfectly useless if you aren't going to shoot off some kind of rest to remove "you" from the equation as much as possible.

Also shooting at the right type of target will help immensely. A Square Target Spot that is the same width as your front sight (3-4")when viewed at 25 yards or 50 Feet, if that's all you have access to,,, will allow you to index the Front Sight on the target more accurately and consistently. That cuts down on windage errors in sighting..

Then you set the Square Target Spot right on top of your Front Sight and carefully press the trigger as close to the same way as possible five or so times.

What you should end up with is about as good as that particular load will shoot from that gun.

Sometimes the way the gun is supported will have a dramatic effect as well, so you may have to try different holds on the gun.

Usually the most consistent method of holding a pistol against a rest is to use your regular grip (assuming it is decent in the first place) and set the package on top of the rest,,, or press your Support Hand Front against the back of the rest. These two methods seem to work best across most Semi Auto Pistol Platforms. Some will say have the gun contacting the rest, I have not had luck with that method.

After you have figured out which hold works the best you are ready to get serious with accuracy testing.

Then come back and tell us how it worked out for you.

Randy

[marek313]

In general I agree with you that rested would have been better. Next time I'm going to try to get to the range early or really late and hopefully i can play on a bench where I can shoot rested but even standing unsupported I could see the difference on paper between 9 and my 40/10mm.

My problem with shooting off the bench is statistics. There are many people with very impressive targets with some really nice 3-5 shot groups but can these individuals do it consistently though? probably not so much and many are trophy pics that we save to show off to others. If I'm going to shoot rested I'm doing 10 shots and repeat and repeat until I'm sure it wasnt a lucky or unlucky string.

When i shoot 100 rounds on steel target and connect 60% for instance with 9mm then pick up a 40/45 and connect 95% of the time there is a big difference there. Even if I pull couple shots here or there it doesnt make a big difference because of the high shot count.

In a perfect world I wouldnt live in NJ and I would have a small range out back like Hicok45 where i could test everything until I ran out of ideas. Unfortunately most of the time I'm shooting shoulder to shoulder unsupported.

[megasupermagnum]

In general I agree with you that rested would have been better. Next time I'm going to try to get to the range early or really late and hopefully i can play on a bench where I can shoot rested but even standing unsupported I could see the difference on paper between 9 and my 40/10mm.

My problem with shooting off the bench is statistics. There are many people with very impressive targets with some really nice 3-5 shot groups but can these individuals do it consistently though? probably not so much and many are trophy pics that we save to show off to others. If I'm going to shoot rested I'm doing 10 shots and repeat and repeat until I'm sure it wasnt a lucky or unlucky string.

When i shoot 100 rounds on steel target and connect 60% for instance with 9mm then pick up a 40/45 and connect 95% of the time there is a big difference there. Even if I pull couple shots here or there it doesnt make a big difference because of the high shot count.

In a perfect world I wouldnt live in NJ and I would have a small range out back like Hicok45 where i could test everything until I ran out of ideas. Unfortunately most of the time I'm shooting shoulder to shoulder unsupported.

There are some bench shooters who only claim the best they ever get. You will be more consistent shooting from a rest though, it's the only way you can know what changes made in improvement. Even just a primer change can cut groups down, but you would never tell shooting offhand. 3 shot groups are good for sighting in, but that's it. I like 5 shot groups though. My personal test is 5- 5 shot groups. That gives me an average that is as good as anything. I could shoot 5- 10 shot groups and the average would still be about the same.

[Cherokee]

I shoot 10 shot strings from the bench, sometime 20 rd. Most of my target 2-hand shooting is 20 rd groups. Consistency can be a challenge. YMMV

I found my universal 9mm bullet - Lee 356120 TC w/lube. Works in all my 9's with WST, 231, HS6.

[P Flados]

Ok, there have been lots of suggestions.

A lot mimic what I experienced before I "fixed" my problems.

I now


Use a deep plug 0.358" expander
Use 0.359" PC coated boolits.
Use sorted brass, only Blazer, FC and CCI for me
I seat and I do flare removal as separate steps.

I can now use any powder I want and loads up to book max with great accuracy and no leading.

We all know that many 9mm guns have no throats. However, this is usually easy enough to figure out.

I have come to believe that much of the 9mm "just can't figure it out frustration" comes from having boolits sized down by the case more than you think and/or just not going with big enough boolits.

The "undersized boolit leaving the case" problem lines up pretty good with any sign of unstable / tumbling boolits or with leading issues. With either of these issues you probably should try to "go bigger" where you can actually measure a bigger OD on the case in the region of the seated boolit. This is easier and probably better than trying to pull and measure boolits. You should be able to keep going "bigger" until you can feel that the loaded round is getting too snug in the chamber.

Now to get "bigger leaving the case" will probably require a bigger expander and it may require bigger boolits.

I think that the issue with boolits being sized by the case is a big part of why many have better luck with harder lead.

However it is not only that some boolit sizing down occurs, it is also the inconsistently due to the wide variations that occur in the relatively thick 9 mm brass.

My sizer die squeezes the brass down more than I need (it will let you load for a very firmly held 0.355 j word). The extra sizing increases the spring back during expanding. This is partly why I had to go so big with my expander. You may want to try backing off on running the sizer die all of the way down. With the case taper, this reduces the amount of sizing. For me it helped some even before I got a big enough expander plug.

The tight sizer also makes for more effort in the expander step. This is where mixed brass really increases the variations in what I note for effort to pull the sizer out. Most cases are "on the hard side", some are along the lines of "ok, brace yourself and grunt".

Note that more variations occur in the 9mm even using same headstamps than is typical for most handgun brass. It is the thick brass. With brass sorting, it is just that the extent of "stiffer" and the frequency of "stiff ones" are both less.

[smokeater]

I cast and shoot the LEE 356-125R for all my 9mms. Currently down to only 2 GLOCK 17s and 3 GLOCK 19s. Using my alloy (12 to 15 Brinell Hardness) and Unique, Power Pistol, HP38 and HS6, mine shoot just as accurately as when I shoot plated or jacketed. I size to .356 and seat deep enough for the "plunk" test and everything is rosey. Only shoot plated and jacketed for carry purposes myself although a cast bullet is just as good. Wife still likes to shoot the pretty shiny copper ones though. Lead been killing the bad guy years before the "J" word was available. Now, not knowing your particulars, I always shoot 300 to 500 rds of jacketed or plated bullets before I shoot a lot cast, kinda helps with the barrel break in plus they help to polish the bore. This is just something I learned from Brian Pearce's writings and it has served me well. Also, lots of time too hard an alloy can cause accuracy problems. I had a CANIK 9mm that shot just as good as my Glocks, but passed it on to our son-in-law who took a shine to it.

[skeettx]

WELL!!!!
I am going to take flak on this :)
Load up a handful of rounds with 800-X
YUP, 800-X, I know, I know BUT
Let me know what you get for accuracy out of the SIG

Mike

[Harry O]

I tried for several years to make plain base 9mm Luger bullets work. Results were always between mediocre to downright bad (from an accuracy standpoint). I finally gave up. I bought a gas-check bullet (I believe it was from RCBS) for the 9mm and have not had any problems with it since. Keep in mind that the pressure of a full power 9mm Luger load is very close to the pressure of a .357 Magnum (which I ONLY use gas-check with and don't have problems with).

Back when experimenting, I also had the crimping problem mentioned above. I measured a bunch of factory loads at the mouth of the 9mm and then set up my taper crimp die to give me the exact same mouth diameter. It worked great for feeding.

[JBinMN]

Marek313,

Regardless of your saying this is a "rant" of some sort in your OP, be sure to know that there are some of us who, even though we sometimes do not post a reply, actually enjoy reading about others doings & what might be offered for advice from others who are trying to help out, as well.
So, your "rant" is actually helpful to some folks, even if you did not realize it.
IMO, "Rant" all ya like,as it is just another way to get info shared when info is given about the "rant" & what others offer for assistance to alleviate the rant. ( "Making some lemon juice out of the lemons" you got.)
;)

Anyway.... Her is another vote for using a shooting rest of some kind to find out what the firearm can do.
(Usually a "bench rest" or a "prone rest" setup is best. But, most folks likely already know that...Some might not.. ;) )

I think it is best to use the most stable position & rest you can, to test accuracy and verify where the firearm is shooting with a "baseline" ammunition before you try to work on any changes & then do the changes, "one change at a time", without doing any other changes, to get the best most accurate results of what is happening .

( For me, when I say "stable", that is a table(bench) and sandbags for pistols. Although sometimes I use a "V-notched jig" made out of some 2x6 or 8" material with a leather strip in the V to protect the firearm when shooting and small sandbags to hold it steady. I have difficulty getting up & down due to health issues for any prone positions, so that is rarely done by me now a days, or I would likely use that position for both rifle & handgun. So, it has to be a table w/sandbags or shooting stick or sticks(bipod) for me.)

Some folks use a walking(shooting) stick with a wrist loop which is either twisted around their "off/support hand side" wrist, or looped around their thumb/palm/whatever suits, with the back of their hand up against the stick to help be stable & that should certainly be more stable than just offhand, as well as being easy to use at your range even if it is busy.

You could also consider a"bipod" setup since you are going to a range, but you would have to figure out the best "mechanics" for how to rest either your wrist or your firearm to be comfortable as well as stable.

Some or many may already know what I am posting, but I am trying to help out here in my own way & as far as I am concerned that is one of the best reasons for a forum like this.
Helping out others if/when ya can, the best ya can.

G'Luck with your experiments & tests! I hope you get your solutions & satisfaction from doing it, as well as please take the time to post up what you end up finding out for results & what issues get solved.
:)

[Vanquish]

My favorite cast 9mm is the Lee 356-120-TC. Cast from WW, air cooled, and then powder coated with smokes powder. I started sizing them to .356, and got very good results so I never bothered trying anything else. I probably should experiment a bit more, but these will consistently shoot sub 1" 10 shot groups at 10 yards at the indoor range I shoot at. I use a very light taper crimp. Power Pistol and 231 have been the most accurate powder for me so far. Power Pistol is cleaner, so once my 231 is gone, I'll stick with PP.

[Walks]

tomme boy has it right.

Most people slam any kind of brass thru a PROGRESSIVE. All they do is clean and barely sort to get rid of the stray 380.
I keep my brass in lots/boxes of 50 or 100. Sorted by headstamp, never mixed. Checked for length.
I cast from an old IDEAL #356402, LINOTYPE sized .356 over a hefty charge of BULLSEYE.

This functions well in a 1920 Commercial LUGER, early P-38, 1950's Hi-Power & half a dozen others.
Lately I've been trying the LEE 356-125-RN with a hefty charge of TITEGROUP. Decent accuracy.

[osteodoc08]

I’ve been using Casting Machines 124gr FP boolits and they are like lasers. I even ran them up to +p velocity and they plug and chug just fine with 231 powder. A solid 2-3” 10 shot performer at 25 yards if I do my job which is fine by me out of 4” service guns. They could do better from a bench without a doubt.

[sureYnot]

I tried for several years to make plain base 9mm Luger bullets work. Results were always between mediocre to downright bad (from an accuracy standpoint). I finally gave up. I bought a gas-check bullet (I believe it was from RCBS) for the 9mm and have not had any problems with it since. Keep in mind that the pressure of a full power 9mm Luger load is very close to the pressure of a .357 Magnum (which I ONLY use gas-check with and don't have problems with).

Back when experimenting, I also had the crimping problem mentioned above. I measured a bunch of factory loads at the mouth of the 9mm and then set up my taper crimp die to give me the exact same mouth diameter. It worked great for feeding.Is it possible that the GC solved the problem by preventing the brass from sizing down the boolit? My CDO may demand that I test that theory one day. Any chance we could talk you into measuring a GC'd and PB boolit, both before and after seating? We may learn that there are two viable approaches to the problem of cases sizing down our boolits. Or, I could just be all wet... Cheers.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[TaylorS]

Really good thread have had lot of issues with 9mm myself especially since I’ve started casting for it look like I need to make some shop time and take it back to basics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marek313]

I wrote my quick rant out of frustration as I was trying to figure out what to do next. All I was expecting was few posts telling me to stop whining and get back to work lol. I should have knows better then to think that. Looks like most of us are facing 9mm performance issues of some sort.

Sounds like we need to start some sort of 9mm Anonymous group here.
First we'll cover function, feeding and ejection then we'll move on to barrel leading and we'll finish with accuracy to complete this program.
It will be scheduled right after Glock Owners Anonymous. Thats where Glock owners get to face their fears and fire a non Glock handgun. Better hurry this class is filling up fast [smilie=1:

But all kidding aside I'm glad I ranted as I'm finding very good info here in all these responses. As TaylorS pointed out dont overlook the basics. The whole gun/ammo relationship is a balancing act and sometimes we get lucky and sometimes we have to monkey around with things before they work. Sometimes all you need is a break and then you get that light bulb moment and I was planning on doing that but you guys got me thinking now so I'm going to be doing more testing this weekend hopefully from a rest this time.
Thanx guys

[popper]

229011
It can be done. This is a 9 compact, more than 60 rnds on target - 2 handed, standing. 35-135S, WD HiTek coated, range pickup brass. I don't like to load 9 and this .357 sized gives some keyholed in SIL's 9's.

[Harry O]

Is it possible that the GC solved the problem by preventing the brass from sizing down the boolit? My CDO may demand that I test that theory one day. Any chance we could talk you into measuring a GC'd and PB boolit, both before and after seating? We may learn that there are two viable approaches to the problem of cases sizing down our boolits. Or, I could just be all wet... Cheers.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

I cannot measure any of my plain base 9mm bullets since I no longer have any. They have been melted down and turned into something more useful. I did try them sized at .355", .356", .357" and .358". I did find some bullet combinations that did well in one gun (or maybe two), but it was bad when I went to other guns. The gas-check bullets stopped that, too. They work pretty good to excellent in all of my guns now. Here is a picture of my 9mm gas-check bullets. I use standard size .357 Magnum gas-checks and size them with a 0.355" sizer. The size coming out of the sizer is 0.356" (undoubtedly due to copper springback). It is lubed with standard NRA 50/50 lube. Works well in ALL my 9mm's.

229012

[fredj338]

That much testing, I think your particular 9mm just wont shoot lead bullets well. I can get 1" groups from a box stock glock g26, g19, g34 @ 10y with just about any powder bullet combo, no brass sorting, just load & shoot. My Springfield 1911/9 will do 2" @ 25y. I size all to 0.357", bhn is pretty soft, maybe 11-12? Maybe try NOT water dropping. At target vel, under 1100fps, you don't need a hard bullet.

[Dusty Bannister]

OP "Sounds like we need to start some sort of 9mm Anonymous group here.
First we'll cover function, feeding and ejection then we'll move on to barrel leading and we'll finish with accuracy to complete this program."

I think it might be more important to have the first part of this as bullet fit. I have been loading 9MM for others for quite some time and when I got a Ruger LC9, I made up some of the same bullets at the same diameter over different powders and experienced massive leading. I even tried a few rounds with 800-X and the fireball would have impressed anyone making an action movie. I knew the bullet was adequate to fill the grooves, but only after determining the cartridge OAL with the dowel or cleaning rod method, did I find out that to get the nose of the bullet to touch the lands, the base was not even in the case. The Lee 356-120-TC conventional lube has cured a lot of leading issues and it was a complete shock when it failed in this particular gun. Thankfully, another list member had sent a care package several years ago with some of the Lee 358-125-RF and they worked very well in this particular firearm.

If I were just starting out with cast bullets, it likely would have defeated me and I would have given up casting. And those that know me, know that is far from the truth as I really like my cast bullets.

There is a sticky about getting set up for cast bullets in 9MM. I think that if a member asked about a problem he is having and has not read that sticky, the first suggestion is R T S (read the sticky) and then come back with any questions. It is not unusual to forget some of the basic stuff when we have not worked with a new cartridge for a while, as this thread shows. Let's go have some fun. Dusty

[Char-Gar]

I cannot measure any of my plain base 9mm bullets since I no longer have any. They have been melted down and turned into something more useful. I did try them sized at .355", .356", .357" and .358". I did find some bullet combinations that did well in one gun (or maybe two), but it was bad when I went to other guns. The gas-check bullets stopped that, too. They work pretty good to excellent in all of my guns now. Here is a picture of my 9mm gas-check bullets. I use standard size .357 Magnum gas-checks and size them with a 0.355" sizer. The size coming out of the sizer is 0.356" (undoubtedly due to copper springback). It is lubed with standard NRA 50/50 lube. Works well in ALL my 9mm's.

229012

Annealing the gas checks would make sizing easier and drastically reduce the spring back.

[reloader28]

We shoot nothing in pistols except cast boolits. So after fighting and fighting in 9mm I bought a plain base gas check maker from Pat Marlin and have had zero problems since. IMO this is better than a gas check shank boolit any day because you are not limited to one. You can put a check on any boolit. Zero leading and good accuracy out of several different 9mm's.

Plus this check will fit 357mag as well

[joebaja]

I don't have a Sig, so I don't know about that one, but my TP9-SF has never shot better than OK with medium and light bullets. I've tried 3 different 120-something gr molds and never been able to get more than so-so accuracy. Put a 140gr+ bullet over a stout charge of slow powder and it is a whole different ballgame. The 1-10 twist does well with pretty much every heavy bullet I load with either blue dot or power pistol. My Sar ST-10 is total opposite. It wants more velocity, and that happens with the lighter bullets. So, I end up with completely different "ideal" loads for each.

[Harry O]

Annealing the gas checks would make sizing easier and drastically reduce the spring back.

You are entirely right. However, it works well like it is. I usually only mess around with things that don't work.

[marek313]

I don't have a Sig, so I don't know about that one, but my TP9-SF has never shot better than OK with medium and light bullets. I've tried 3 different 120-something gr molds and never been able to get more than so-so accuracy. Put a 140gr+ bullet over a stout charge of slow powder and it is a whole different ballgame. The 1-10 twist does well with pretty much every heavy bullet I load with either blue dot or power pistol. My Sar ST-10 is total opposite. It wants more velocity, and that happens with the lighter bullets. So, I end up with completely different "ideal" loads for each.

Thats another thing I wanted to check again because a while back I loaded some Lee 358-158-RF over 3gr of HP38 and I didnt shoot too many of these but I think they better then 125-2R and def better then 120-TC (drops at .355 so i need to fix this mold).
I'm going to bring some of those with me next time and put those on paper as well just so I can compare. I might need to bump that a little over 3gr but its def something I want to look at again.

[tazman]

I have a couple of pistols that like heavier boolits rather than the lighter ones.
I also have a couple of pistols that prefer near full power over lighter or even midrange loads.
A couple of my pistols will eat anything. I think you could feed them rocks and they would be happy. Others, not so much.
I have a pistol that for whatever reason, never seems to get dirty when shot. I can put 150 rounds of some of the dirtiest ammunition through it and it really doesn't need to be cleaned. I don't understand that one, but I appreciate it.

[gwpercle]

The gas check mould I ordered from NOE ...358-124-TC-GC sure solved a lot of problems with cast in the 9mm Luger. Between protecting the base , making seating easier and eliminating leading at 1000 fps velocities with my softish air cooled alloy ...It has given me an outstandingly accurate bullet in 357 Magnum loads. I wasn't expecting that at all. Even good in 38 Special loads.
Might want to try this one out...it's a keeper !
Gary

[btreanor]

I never had any luck with lighter weight cast bullets in my 9mms. However, I've had great luck with hard cast 147 gr. FP and about 4.0 gr. of Power Pistol. I also use a Lee FCD and I've never had issues with leading in any of my 9mms. I wish you the best in your load developments!

[MT Gianni]

How does it shoot with factory ammo and handloaded jacketed bullets? You have to start with a baseline and sometimes that's it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

^^^^ I forgot to mention this in my Response^^^^^ You need a baseline to compare you reloads to.

Randy

[JBinMN]

How does it shoot with factory ammo and handloaded jacketed bullets? You have to start with a baseline and sometimes that's it.


^^^^ I forgot to mention this in my Response^^^^^ You need a baseline to compare you reloads to.

Randy


I am hearing/reading an echo....
;)

Imagine that...
[smilie=1:


Post#41:


Marek313,


I think it is best to use the most stable position & rest you can, to test accuracy and verify where the firearm is shooting with a "baseline" ammunition before you try to work on any changes & then do the changes, "one change at a time", without doing any other changes, to get the best most accurate results of what is happening .






G'Luck with your testing & experiments. See ya around...
;)

[Petander]

Thats another thing I wanted to check again because a while back I loaded some Lee 358-158-RF

This bullet works very well for me in 9mm (357 size) with case full of slow powder (3N37) @ 950fps. Just expand the case deep enough. Sized 356 it is easier to load and still shoots clean (Hi-Tek) but the accuracy is not there. 357 is very accurate,like a good J-load.

I use those in a Tanfoglio pistol and a suppressed B&T carbine.

[toallmy]

I started casting for the 45 acp with soft pure + tin and it worked wonderfully , but when I started on the 9mm it was very aggravating but worked out after reading the sticky mentioned above I switched to a 50/50 alloy and got the brass to stop sizing down the boolits during loading with a 38 Smith and Wesson expander . I tried some plain base checks but at the loads I load they were unnecessary after working out my other problems . The little 9 is a lot of fun when you get it all sorted out .

[marek313]

Back to the basics it is and as many of you pointed out with 9mm its mostly sizing and swaging down issues :groner:
Rechecking everything I found out that my bullets are getting sized down to .355 after seating and before FCD. I'm pretty sure I checked this before multiple times and I didnt have this problem. I might have used little bit harder alloy back then so maybe thats what helped it keep its size bit right now its definitely a problem. I just ordered NOE exp plugs in .357 and .358 so hopefully one of those will work and stop swaging my bullets.

[toallmy]

I found I was smashing them down wile seating the cast boolits after I went through the trouble of getting them lubed and sized at .357 , after I fixed that it was smooth sailing .

[LAH]

I'm shooting a CZ75, Saeco 928 sized & lubed .358", mixed cases, 3.5 grains of Promo, loaded on a Dillon. These shoot very well but I've never took the time to put them on paper though I've run a couple thousand through the gun. Maybe it's not as good as I thought? Think I'll shoot it on paper this summer. The gun is in Nebraska at present.

[LAH]

Let me correct myself. I have put a few on paper when I started with the CZ.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?238677-Cz75

[fredj338]

Back to the basics it is and as many of you pointed out with 9mm its mostly sizing and swaging down issues :groner:
Rechecking everything I found out that my bullets are getting sized down to .355 after seating and before FCD. I'm pretty sure I checked this before multiple times and I didnt have this problem. I might have used little bit harder alloy back then so maybe thats what helped it keep its size bit right now its definitely a problem. I just ordered NOE exp plugs in .357 and .358 so hopefully one of those will work and stop swaging my bullets.
Stop using the LFCD, that might be 50% of your problem.

[asmith80]

^^^^^^^ agreed. The Lee taper crimp die does a much better job without running the risk of swaging your boolits down after you went through all that trouble to size and seat them properly

[tazman]

Notice that he said before using the FCD. He isn't blaming that die at this point.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I've never found a cartridge harder to load for accuracy than the 9mm. Not saying it can't be done. But I've shot $2,000 Wilson Combat ar9s, $2,000 1911s and lots of polymer pistols and they were all a pain when it came to making them shoot well. Of course accuracy is a subjective thing. For me I'll take sub 2" groups at 20 yards from a bench. But I really hope for sub 1.5" at 20 yards. Now I've managed to find loads that bring most of my 9mm pistols under 2" at 20. But it was work. As somebody mentioned chambers and bores are all over the place when it comes to 9mm. I've owned 1911s that will shoot and chamber 358-158-RF OTOH never found an M&P that you could come close to chambering that bullet in. Another issue I seem to have with 9mm is consistency. I've shot more sub 1" 20 yard groups with my Dan Wesson Valkyrie than any open sighted pistol I've owned. The problem is, invariably, the next group will be 2-3 inches. Drives me crazy! I've been hoping MiHec will have another run of gas checked 147 grain HP moulds soon.