Bullets for reduced loads in 30 30 and 22 Hornet...

[ElCheapo]

I'm itching to get my CZ Hornet and Marlin 30 30 back into action! I want to come up with some reduced power loads for small game with both guns, and I love the killing efficiency of flat pointed bullets. Can anybody recommend me some molds for plainbased, flat pointed bullets in 22 and 30 caliber? I want to get 1200 to 1400 fps with minute of squirrel's head accuracy in each gun. Thanks a bunch!

[Baja_Traveler]

Lots of choices for the Hornet - I like the NOE 225107, its a 37 grain flat nose that my 218 Bee really likes.
For the 30-30 you can't beat a 311008, its a 115 grain flat nose - either a lyman mould or go for the 6 banger from NOE to really crank them out. Put that over ~8 grains of Unique (or equivalent in other powders - I mostly use 8.2 grains of Universal Clays) and it shoots with the recoil of a .22 rimfire in my Winchester. Its my go-to chicken load in lever gun silhouette and very accurate.

[3leggedturtle]

I used the Lee 113gr FP at 800-1100fps using Red dot for my squirrel loads in my 30/30. Todd/3leg

[richhodg66]

For the Hornet, NOE makes a 45 grain WFN I have had great success with using two grains of Bullseye.

228650

The Lee 113 grain soup can works well in .30-30.

228651

[Wolfer]

I use the 311008 and 5 gr of clays in my 30-30. 5 gr was the first charge I run with this boolit and I never saw a reason to experiment further.
1200 fps, quiet and accurate.

I don't have a hornet yet.

[ElCheapo]

A 45 grain WFN sounds great, but I'm not familiar with NOE as a mold maker. Could I order that mold and the Lee 113 grainer from the same place and save on shipping?

[quilbilly]

My favorite light load for my 30/30 has been the Lyman 130 gr plain base boolit and an 80% load of Trail Boss for about 1350 fps. It has been deadly on coyotes and keeps the gong ringing at 200 yards all with its iron sights. Recently I acquired one of the Mihec 130 gr convertible molds (convertible to flat point or HP) and can't wait to use it this winter on coyotes with the same Trail Boss load even though it is a gas check mold.
I too have a 22 Hornet in a Contender carbine and I have been very happy with its pelt-saving performance with 53 gr CB's (older Lee Mold) using 9.4 gr of 4198 giving it about 1800 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

ElCheapo;

"I'm itching to get my CZ Hornet and Marlin 30 30 back into action! I want to come up with some reduced power loads for small game with both guns, and I love the killing efficiency of flat pointed bullets. Can anybody recommend me some molds for plainbased, flat pointed bullets in 22 and 30 caliber? I want to get 1200 to 1400 fps with minute of squirrel's head accuracy in each gun."

I shoot lots of TL314-90-SWCs sized .311 out of my 30-30s over 2.7 gr of Bullseye. They run 820 fps out of a 20" barrel and hold "minute of squirrel's head" accuracy out to 50+ yards and are deadly on small game. The 311008 or the RCBS 98 gr SWC over 2.7 to 3.2 gr Bullseye are also excellent. I've found if I want that level of consistent accuracy with a 1200 - 1400 fps cast bullet a GC bullet is the best choice with the 311316 loaded over 8 gr Unique.

Your CZ 22 Hornet should have a 14" twist. I've fiddled with several 37 - 40 gr cast sans the GC and found best accuracy comes at subsonic velocities when they are loaded over Bullseye. A soft cast 225438 gave the best accuracy loaded over 1.5 gr Bullseye for 1060 fps. A FP can be swaged on that bullet during sizing/lubing with a correct top punch. The FP 225107 also gives good subsonic performance cast soft, TLd with LLA and shot "as cast" sans the GC loaded over 1.3 gr Bullseye. However, both bullets give better, more consistent accuracy with GCs.

[shootsblanks]

I load a noe 311008 over 4gr of titegroup for 970fps, or i quench them and use 6.3gr for 1400fps

[barrabruce]

FYI my old cz hornet is 0.223" and 1:16 twist.
Modern ones don’t know.
I would put a tight patch down the barrel and mark a start point with a ink pen and a reference marker on top or the rod
Push it though one rotation and mark again.
This will give you your twist rate.

This will help you calculate/decide the bullet length that will stabilise in your twist rate.
Hope it helps

[Outpost75]

If you happen to have a .30-30 with 1:10" twist, which some Marlins and older Savages and H&Rs are, I have had wonderful results with Accurate 31-155D with 4-5 grains of Bullseye. In the 1:12" twist Winchester 94 I bump the load to 6 grains of Bullseye.

230787230788

[barrabruce]

I like The 308403 dipped lubed with 50/50 bw/vas I’ve been playing with for a while.
Just de/re-prime and a scoop of bullseye and finger seat the bullet on top.
Works for me ..but I only got a single shot..:D:D

[quilbilly]

That 30/30 using the 130 gr plain base boolit and load I described above just accounted for a small spike buck that made the mistake of crossing my yard. 35 yards DRT. Now I can concentrate on duck hunting on a nearby bay.

[centershot]

I didn't see any need to switch boolits when I wanted a small game load for my 30-30. I use the Lyman 311041, tumble-lubed w/o gas check over 4.5 grains of bullseye. Deadly on the local squirrel population w/o being overly damaging and it shoots quiet.

[ElCheapo]

Just finished cleaning up my 1970 Marlin 336 and I'm itchin' to get shooting! Best thing about this gun is the trigger. Should be no problem nailing squirrels/groundhogs and other small game with it. I think I'll stick with the 311041 that I'm gonna use on deer, and just use enough Accurate #2 to get around 1100 fps. No need for gas checks, and I'll probably keep the loads subsonic for this application. Haven't done any work to my CZ 527 22 hornet, other than smoothing up the bore with hundreds of jacketed bullets that I fired while hunting groundhogs. Not sure what bullet weights will shoot best in it as I don't know the twist rate at this point.

[dverna]

Just a reminder...you will need to clean out the copper fouling out to get the beat accuracy with cast bullets.

The Hornet will be a challenge.

[richhodg66]

I was surprised how little challenge there was with the Hornet. I got what I was looking for (fox squirrel head accuracy at 25 yards) immediately and quit experimenting. Those Bullseye loads with the plain based bullet I use in the 219, or the Bator with gas check and six grains of 2400 I use in the Stevens 322 are fun and accurate and great killers on small game.
230932

[ElCheapo]

Just nosing around on the forum a bit, seems some folks don't like reduced loads with ball powders. I like ball powders because they work great in a powder measure. Being a shotgun nut, I also have goodly amounts of Red Dot, Green Dot and Herco on hand to use but they sure don't flow through a measure as consistently as Accurate #2 or #9! I was able to get good accuracy out of my full power 30 30 loads, but unfortunately didn't get a shot at a deer on either of the 2 days I had to hunt. Still nice being outside hunting though. It's been a while!

[jaysouth]

Just remember that bullets that go fast, will go slow too. I like the 165 Ranch Dog in a microgroove Marlin at 1900 fps. It also goes where I point it at 1100 fps.

[Pioneer2]

Just remember the first Hornets were made on .22RF barrels hence the tight grooves and 1-16 twist.Cast should be easy at the correct speed.

[barrabruce]

Just nosing around on the forum a bit, seems some folks don't like reduced loads with ball powders. I like ball powders because they work great in a powder measure. Being a shotgun nut, I also have goodly amounts of Red Dot, Green Dot and Herco on hand to use but they sure don't flow through a measure as consistently as Accurate #2 or #9!

I don’t think ball powders behave themselves in reduced loadings.


Bullseye has been my go to powder for this work but have used others as well.

I’d stick with your red dot.
Scoop and tickle up if needed.
I have a habit of having my cases upside down in the holder then only tipping it up to pour powder in and then seat a bullet.
Pick up next case.
If in doubt or distracted tip it over and see if it’s empty.
It will be after that and then you know for sure.
No double charges here.

[Rally]

Good advise barrabruce.

[Harter66]

The 311-165 Ranch Dog shoots well in a Savage from 900-2200 fps both PB and checked . NOE makes 2,3,4,5 cavity moulds and in even count moulds you can have half GC , half PB . (1+1,2+2)

I have a 225-37 RNFP PB 5 cavity that needs a home .
I can't load the 222/223 down far enough to make it useful for me .

[willicd76]

How does the 30-30 generally do on deer with cast bullets?

[muskeg13]

During the Obama .22 ammo famine, I had good success loading down both the Lyman 225438 and Lee C225-55 for my CZ527 Hornet. Pushing boolits maybe a bit faster than 1300-1400, but less than 2000. I used gas checks, but you probably won't need to. I don't have access to my logbook now, but I'm sure some of the loads used Unique, and maybe Bullseye. I didn't have to fiddle around as the initial experimental loads worked fine, with everything shooting to the same point of impact. I suspect the CZ .22 Hornet is very tolerant to downloading cast boolits, so you won't be disappointed.

[MT Gianni]

How does the 30-30 generally do on deer with cast bullets?

Very few differences between cast and jacketed in the 150-195 gr class when loaded to similar levels.

[ElCheapo]

Just starting the process of removing the copper fouling from my 22 hornet is bringing back memories. Killed my biggest groundhogs with this rifle, all in the rolling hills and apple orchards of Adams county Pa. Couple of them were 16 lbs! It doesn't ring my ears and does the job to 225+ yards with a 35 grain Hornady V-max. Lack of any recoil lets me watch the bullets hit in the scope. Just a great rifle!

[ElCheapo]

Just a reminder...you will need to clean out the copper fouling out to get the beat accuracy with cast bullets.

The Hornet will be a challenge.

Took about 4 days of soaking time, but I think I got all the copper fouling out. I would wet a patch with Shooter's Choice and run it through the bore, then let it soak for hours, or maybe overnight. After several days of that treatment, patches are coming out clean (no green). Should be good to go. Next I'll slug the barrel at both ends and see what I'm dealing with. If the muzzle is looser than the chamber end I'll have to lap it. Definitely want the muzzle to be the tightest fit.

[ElCheapo]

Checked both the breech and the muzzle of the CZ 527 Hornet. Gun is slightly tighter at the muzzle, which is surprising. Usually when manufacturers tighten the barrel into the action there is some thread crush, resulting in a tighter bore just in front of the chamber. I guess all the hot jacketed rounds I fired at groundhogs eroded this constriction. I will still run about 10 or 15 lap rounds through this gun just to make sure it's super smooth, then I'll polish it by hand w/lapping compound and finish it off with some S&W friction block applied on a clean cloth patch. Now I just have to wait for my mold to arrive and I can get started!

[MW65]

I'm trying RCBS-30-180-FN in 30-30. A bit heavy, but should be a good shooter...

[pls1911]

Stick with your normal 30-30 gas checked bullet, and try 10-15 grains of unique... what fun.
But don't kid yourself... that 170-ish grain bullet at 1100+/- fps is also a quiet pig killer.
Check old lyman #3 as a guide for load levels.

[fastdadio]

My light load in 30-30 is the Lee 170gr. fngc, pc'd, without the gas check. 5.5 grs Tight Group at about +/- 1190fps. Shoots good to about 75 yds. Past that I think it goes sub sonic and the groups begin to open up. Surprised no one has linked the GMDR site yet. It's where I started. I'll be playing with Blue Dot next since I'm buying some to load round balls and heavy buck in my 20ga.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[ElCheapo]

Tested my handloads with the Lyman 311041 yesterday. My initial loading was giving me velocities in the neighborhood of 1850 fps, so I increased the powder charge slightly. Yesterday my average velocity was 2265 fps, with a noticeable but not uncomfortable increase in recoil. No leading was noted at this velocity level, thanks to a smooth barrel and gas checks doing their job. I'm going to decrease the powder charge in an attempt to get the velocity right at 2200 fps, and my 15 BHN bullets should exhibit some expansion in game at this speed. Accuracy seems to be the same, staying right around 1 1/2 inches for 5 shots at 100 yards. Scope is an old 1-4x Leupold Vari-x II. I'm thinking I should have no trouble getting this bullet to shoot well at 1100 to 1200 fps, and there should be no need for a gas check at that velocity.

[ElCheapo]

I was able to find a good deal on a Lyman 311008 mold. It's a 115 grain FN PB. Should be good for light loads around 1200-1300 fps in my 30 30. Curious thing is the bullet has 2 lube grooves and no crimp groove. So the question is, do I fill both grooves with lube and crimp on the front driving band? Or just fill the rear groove and crimp in the front groove? Anybody having experience with this bullet please chime in!

[ElCheapo]

After a couple responses advising me to fill both lube grooves and crimp on the front driving band that's what I did. 6 grains of Red Dot gave me an average of 1313 fps. Of course, I was using a powder measure and velocities ranged from a high of 1372 to a low of 1263. This is why I like ball powder! If I keep using Red Dot I'm gonna have to find a funnel that fits into a 30 30 case so I can weigh the powder on the scale and then dump it in the case. I don't like doing this 'cause it's slow, but I don't like inconsistent velocity either. Anyway, I tried several different seating depths and found one that the gun liked, yielding groups under 1/2 inch at 50 yards. This is plenty good enough for small game. I did try 10 grains of AA #9 and that gave me 1391 fps. I think I'll try 7 grains of Red Dot next. This should give me around 1550 fps, and that nice big meplat will really thump whatever I shoot with it. Plus hopefully it will hit close to where my full power loads are zeroed at. Cheers!

[HangFireW8]

I think a little more red dot might even out the velocities some. I'll take a look at QL when I get home.

[GONRA]

ElCheapo - GONRA sez ball powders will typically be more difficult to ignite than extruded powders.
"Ball Power Issues" are more likely to show up in lower pressure loads which usually are NOT a good idea.
But if they verk for ya'll - use 'em! (Wot the hell?)

My understanding is that Ball Powder COATINGS aim to adjust the burn rate.
(Extruded powders accomplish this thru appropriate POWDER GRAIN GEOMETRY.)
Coating makes Ball Powders more difficult to ignite.

[HangFireW8]

I had to use 311359, a GC 115 grain bullet.

6 grains of RedDot and 115grains should be getting you around 15K PSI which is enough to get an even burn... so I suspect much of the variation is the volume based measurement. I know, RD can be a pain to measure in small amounts.

The pressure equivalent of "the load" (13 grains in '06 around 30K PSI) for 30/30, is 10 grains RD for 115 cast, 8.5grains of RD for 311041.

Have you considered Bullseye? Much easier to measure, and lower pressure than Red Dot grain for grain (in the 6-7 grain range, anyway.)

[ElCheapo]

I have a bunch of Red Dot already. Might as well use it up.

[ElCheapo]

7 grains of Red Dot gave me an average velocity of 1413 fps. Accuracy still on point with no leading. I don't really need to push it any faster for small game or varmints (groundhogs) to 100+ yards. I'm curious as to how fast I could drive this bullet before leading occurs, and at what speed it would be a reliable killer of hogs to 100 yards or so? I may get the chance to try it out on some Florida piggies if I play my cards right.

[HangFireW8]

I don't have the 311008. My guess is accuracy will go south before leading occurs, but that is bore, alloy, mold, sizing, and lube dependent. If you get leading, try doing the trick of putting a coat of LLA over top of the conventional lube.

[ElCheapo]

Thought I'd try some Green Dot loads. 8.5 grains yielded 1578 fps with the 115 grain Lyman 311008. 9 grains gave me 1632 fps, and 9.5 grains bumped it up to 1690 fps. This was at 32 degrees F. Just ran a patch through the bore with some Shooter's Choice and I don't see any lead in there.

[HangFireW8]

How was accuracy?

[ElCheapo]

How was accuracy?

Same as with Red Dot. I used the same seating depth.

[richhodg66]

Thought I'd try some Green Dot loads. 8.5 grains yielded 1578 fps with the 115 grain Lyman 311008. 9 grains gave me 1632 fps, and 9.5 grains bumped it up to 1690 fps. This was at 32 degrees F. Just ran a patch through the bore with some Shooter's Choice and I don't see any lead in there.

It sounds to me like you have your small game load figured out. The .30-30 is good in this regard.

Deer loads with cast in the .30-30 aren't hard either, but you'll want a heavier bullet and slower powder.

[ElCheapo]

It sounds to me like you have your small game load figured out. The .30-30 is good in this regard.

Deer loads with cast in the .30-30 aren't hard either, but you'll want a heavier bullet and slower powder.

I do have a good heavy load worked up with the Lyman 311041, but I've been thinking the last couple of days. I honestly don't feel I need to push the 311008 so fast. 7 grains of Red Dot gives me 1400 or so fps and this load flies flat to 100 yards. It should be plenty potent enough to kill varmints and turkeys. I think I'll stick with it for a while and try it out on some critters. If I need more ooomph than that I'll use the 311041's.

[ElCheapo]

It's been a while, so I thought I'd give an update. I tried the 311008 out on some groundhogs and performance was great, with complete penetration and instant death. In the end however, I got tired of re-zeroing my rifle every time I wanted to use different bullets. I decided to stick with one load in the 30-30, namely the 311041 at 2150 fps. See here... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?414218-Clean-kill-with-30-30-on-last-day

For the 22 Hornet I was able to acquire a 5 cavity NOE 225107 mold. It's a 37 grain plain based flat point that looks really nice, but I haven't started load development yet. Originally I was thinking of loading it to around 1400-1500 fps for use on groundhogs around the farm. Then my hog hunting buddy in South Carolina said if I powdercoated it I could shoot it as fast as j-words. That would be awesome, but I have no experience powder coating bullets. Heck, even if I could achieve hunting accuracy at 22 magnum velocity levels with water-quenched COWW's that would be pretty darn useful. So does anybody have experience doing this with a Hornet? Any tips or advice would be much appreciated!

[6thtexas]

For the Hornet, NOE makes a 45 grain WFN I have had great success with using two grains of Bullseye.

228650

The Lee 113 grain soup can works well in .30-30.

228651

My Ruger #3 hornet loves the same load.

[scattershot]

278466

This is a 165 grain lead flat point boolit from Hunter Supply, with 5.5 grains of Red Dot. A little heavy for squirrels, perhaps, but minute of head for sure. About 1080 fps.


ETA: The rifle is an old Marlin lever action.

[Goofy]

Maybe a Lyman 311041 w/o the gascheck?

https://i.imgur.com/0LR49yA.jpg

[Mk42gunner]

Its not surprising that your 311008 worked on groundhogs at ~13-1400 fps, that is basically a .32-20 equivalent load.

Myself, for the .30-30 I started with about four grains of Green Dot under most any .32 cal handgun boolit from 95-120 grains. It did what I wanted it to so I never really did much experimenting or more load development.

Robert

[ElCheapo]

Got some of the 225107's powdercoated and shot them through the Hornet today. 4.9 grains of Herco gave 2150 fps and half inch groups at 50 yards despite breezy conditions. Only fired 15 shots but didn't get any leading and cleanup was easy. Three patches and I was done. I think I'm ready for groundhogs!

[NorthMoccasin]

Dont shoot any tree rats with the 2150 fs loads, you will wind up with two-piece tree rats. Ask me how I know..... NOE makes a 46gr WFN that makes a dandy small game load with 3.0 gr of red dot.

[ElCheapo]

I nailed a crow the other day with the 22 mag equivalent load. A center chest hit killed it without a twitch and didn't tear it up much. Just a hole all the way through. Had a chance at a g-hog on Saturday. 100 yard shot in a pretty stiff breeze. Only came close enough to spook him down his hole. :(

[GBCAPT]

I have a NOE 225-46-WFN that I got for my CZ 527 .22 Hornet with a 1:16 twist barrel that shoots Sierra Hornet .223 bullets more accurately than the same bullet in .224 diameter. I tried to load with Trail Boss to get into rimfire standard velocity range, but accuracy just wasn't there. I had plans to hollow point with Forster hollow point add on to my case trimmer but never got to it. Tried them in my .222 Howa mini action HB 1:14 twist with better accuracy to 50 yds with Red Dot. Still working on it but I am currently starved for 22 caliber gas checks!

One comment is that this WFN will not feed from the magazine of either my CZ or Howa so you should be prepared to single feed this boolit!

[ElCheapo]

Shot into water jugs at 25 yards with the 22 mag equivalent load. Bullet stopped in the third jug and expanded to .348 diameter.

https://www.tdpri.com/media/22-mag-bullet.46585/full

[Three44s]

Impressive!

Three44s

[Prodigal Son]

Just picked up a Savage 340 in Hornet I have a NOE 22 caliber that throws a 39 gr GC I've used in my Winchester 43 should do fine!

[ElCheapo]

Impressive!

Three44s

We'll see. I'm interested what it will do to groundhogs. I could use a 50/50 mix of COWW and soft lead and get more expansion, but I'll try the straight WW alloy first.

[ElCheapo]

281857
In one ear and out the other.

[ElCheapo]

Well, I've nailed enough groundhogs with the 22 mag equivalent load to know it does a good job. It's quiet and cheap to shoot too. I like the versatility of being able to use 22 mag loads for short range and full power Hornets for coyotes or longer ranges. Kind of like a 38 Special/357 Mag thing going on. I'm all in on the powdercoating too. Essentially you are making a lead bullet with a plastic jacket, allowing you to shoot plainbased cast bullets with jacketed velocity and accuracy. What's not to like? It's got me wondering what a pc'd 311008 at about 2200 fps would do to a deer. And how much Herco would I need? Or Blue Dot? Or Accurate #9?

[farmbif]

my opinion if putting together a hunting load for a 30-30 might as well just go with one of the popular 170 grain molds and working up a max or near max load. but then I'm sure there are many folks can tell you that the 30-30 with 150 grain cast bullet at 2200 fps is an ideal way to go for hunting white tail deer. 115 grains at 2200 fps? I'm no expert but even if your shooting a 50 BMG a lot has to do with shot placement.

[444ttd]

my 30-40 krag with a 165gr ranch dog and 25.5gr of h4198 going 1926fps has put meat on the table. i have killed 7 or 8 deer and my son(using the same rifle) has killed 6 or 7 deer. he has killed a doe at 173 yards(laser range finder thingy). its all about placement, not the speed of the boolit.

[ElCheapo]

38 grain NOE flatpoint to the head at 45 yards = lights out!

https://www.tdpri.com/media/20210712_134423.47118/full

[ElCheapo]

More velocity testing. PC'd 115gr 311008 with Rem 9 1/2 LRP, AA#9, WW 30-30 case at 81 degrees F. 16 gr = 1915 fps, 17 gr = 2001 fps, 18 gr = 2156 fps. No pressure signs whatsoever, negligible recoil and excellent accuracy.