9mm procrastinator

[Big Jake]

Hello all. I am new to cast boolits and reloading in general. I’ve found this website to be very helpful in learning, so I figured I’ll make a post. I’ve been researching reloading for over 10 years and I recently got all of grandpas old single stage reloading equipment out that hasn’t been used in going on 30 years. Long story short, when he passed away it all got stored and it’s been in the back of my mind ever since , my dad always talks about it and getting it all out and starting but time really flies, but now it’s time. He hasn’t reloaded since he was a kid. It’s pretty cool going through all of this old stuff, brings back memories of it all set up in his garage. I’ve got all the old vintage powder containers and stuff displayed on my shelf. So needless to say, I want to load my first rounds as they would have been loaded back then. I think I am on the right track so I’d like to confirm with the pro’s. I plan to start with 124g 9mm. I loaded some dummy rounds with a boolit sized to .357 ran through the old lube a matic to .357 and I found that it does not fully seat in my aftermarket Glock kkm, XDS or Shield barrels, though from what I’ve read, 1 or 2 thou bigger than jacketed is desired, I ordered a .356 sizer and I’ll experiment more. My plan is as follows:



Make my lead alloy with the vintage scrap and create ingots

Test BHN with the LEE kit, aiming for around 15

Cast boolits with RCBS 124g rn air cool

Dial in sizing to fit my current barrel chambers and lube with the lsstuff BAC red lube

Pick a recipe to start with from my new Lyman cast boolit book to work up from

Clean brass/case lube/resize/decap

Verify case length?

Flare cases enough so the boolit does not resize while seating

Add powder,seat, pull apart to check boolit size again

Shoot, inspect, repeat

[marlin39a]

You also need to taper crimp your seated round to make it plunk.

[John McCorkle]

Agreed with above, there are methods of "plunk" testing which is basically just ensuring the bullet will go "plunk" freely un incumbered by pressure and friction sliding into the chamber.

Best way I have found is to take the barrel completely out of the pistol... phone not the end of a dummy round with black sharpie and test...it it doesn't chamber completely without issue the sharpie will show you where it is rubbing...on the bullet (seat deeper or size better) or on the case (more taper crimp) there are threads here that detail it much better than what I just have

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[Big Jake]

Yes thanks. My seating die also crimps. Rcbs instructions say to set it at 1/32 from shell holder for no crimp, and 1/16 clearance to crimp, so I have to dial that in. Seems like a pretty crucial adjustment

[HangFireW8]

Welcome to the board, Big Jake.

Ideally loaded ammo will pass the plunk test, as you did, just drop in. However slight engaging force might be OK, depending on the handgun. You can load up some dummies and see if they fully chamber when you drop the slide. That might be good enough, even if they don't fully plunk under gravity.

9's and Glocks are a bit challenging for cast but are doable. Many get an aftermarket barrel with a tighter chamber for better brass life. But the stock barrel might give you instant plunk.

.001-.003" over bore is a rule of thumb that usually works very well... But it is not a hard and fast rule. If the alloy isn't too hard, the charge has enough pressure, and the lube is good, the boolit can obturate (deform), seal, and not lead up the barrel.

[Wheelguns 1961]

Good luck and welcome to the forum!

[mattw]

Might I add... If you are doing this all single stage... a good habit to get into is crimping as a process after seating. With semi-auto pistols I have found that this helps as much as anything else, especially with the 9mm. This process allows you to feel the crimp taking place, you can feel a long case, a short case or other issues involved with this stage.

Welcome to the entry of the rabbit hole!

[Big Jake]

It seems as though a roll crimp which is what I believe my die does is not advisable for 9mm, so after reading these comments I may pick up a separate taper crimp die.

[gwpercle]

Start with 1/32 inch but you will have to adjust die(s) in and out to get both depth and crimp dialed in.
I recommend adjusting the seating depth first , depth is more important than diameter when it comes to getting them to chamber. Once boolit depth is correct , readjust die to put a taper crimp on case/boolit . Not too much and not too little. Make a dummy round or two so the next time you can use them to set crimp and bullet seating stem.
Some just seat with one die and crimp with another die in a separate steps.
Always use the same shell holder with the dies you have adjusted. Using another shell holder might require you to readjust the dies...I discovered this when I used a different shell holder when loading some 9 mm's.
Welcome to the site.
Good luck , I will tell you cast boolit loads in the 9mm can be trying....to put it mildly .
Gary

[gwpercle]

It seems as though a roll crimp which is what I believe my die does is not advisable for 9mm, so after reading these comments I may pick up a separate taper crimp die.

If you have a set of 9mm Luger dies it will apply a taper crimp....keep screwing it down and the crimp might start to roll in. If the case mouth edge starts to roll in , back off just a little , you're crimping too much.
A taper crimp is standard on the semi-auto 9 mm and all standard dies will be furnished with one.
Gary

[mozeppa]

not to discourage...but...9mm is one of the toughest rounds to consistently get right.

i am so anal about 9mm it really is ridiculous! and yet....right now i'm in the middle of breaking down 900+ finished cartridges due to performance issues. (yeah...i know ....shoulda done more testing.)

they WILL be right or they won't ever see the gun!

[David2011]

One thing that makes 9mm crimping easier, if that's possible, is to measure the diameter of the cartridge just behind the mouth. The spec is 9.65mm/0.378". The reason I measure just behind the mouth is to avoid a false measurement if there is a burr at the mouth. Adjust the taper crimp die to get that size on your cartridges and they will feed reliably.

[fredj338]

Yes thanks. My seating die also crimps. Rcbs instructions say to set it at 1/32 from shell holder for no crimp, and 1/16 clearance to crimp, so I have to dial that in. Seems like a pretty crucial adjustment
Read that again. The closer the bottom of the die is to the shell holder the MORE crimp. As noted, you want a taper crimp, BUT, you can get an acceptable crimp with a roll crimp if that is what you have. Either taper or roll, You want to just straighten out the flare, NOT roll the case mouth into the bullet.
Lead bullets in a modern 9mm are not that difficult. I size all mine to 0.357" & they fit all of my 9mm barrels, including a couple of tight match barrels. What you have to pay attention to is the OAL & where the bullet hits the barrel throat. That may have to be adjusted for various pistols but I get great results with 0.357" sizing. No I never trim pistol brass, ever.

[popper]

Crimp in a separate step, feel the die just taper crimp, rcbs is taper. Should just have a shiny ring on the mouth. Plunk test every round! 9 is a taper wall case and seating the heavy will often run in to a thick case bulge.

[gwpercle]

not to discourage...but...9mm is one of the toughest rounds to consistently get right.

i am so anal about 9mm it really is ridiculous! and yet....right now i'm in the middle of breaking down 900+ finished cartridges due to performance issues. (yeah...i know ....shoulda done more testing.)

they WILL be right or they won't ever see the gun!

After five decades of reloading handgun ammo my Dad recently gave me my first 9 mm , a WWII Walther P38 , had to shoot it of course . I had two sets of dies , CH and LEE , two boolit moulds and while working up loads for the P38 was given two other newer 9 mm pistols and bought two more moulds .

With all this equipment and 50 years experience there was a couple times ,when I kept running into these pesky little glitches , That I actually cussed out the nasty little 9mm and considered throwing everything in the Mississippi River. I would stop , think about things , go back, regroup and try again. I finally got it all sorted out, but it wasn't easy. I actually use dies from both sets of CH and Lee dies to get rounds that work in all the guns ! The P38 is the easiest to load for because it has a generous chamber and long throat. The newer 9mm's with tight chambers and little or no throats were Buggers ( substitute the word used for a female dog).
My best advice is make darn sure you load works before loading a big batch of 9's they like to mess with you.
Gary

[gpidaho]

Big Jake: One of my nines has a tight chamber and not much if any throat. This works just fine with jacketed bullets but can be trying with cast. Several bullet profiles need to be seated deeper than I would like to function so be careful of your bullet choice. There is so little space available in the 9mm case that pressures can skyrocket if the bullet is seated deeper than the data calls for. Welcome along and good luck. I'm sure you will enjoy using Grandpa's equipment. Gp

[jmort]

I use CH4D sizing die as it is tapered from what I read. Special ordered a couple, not carbide. I do not believe any other 9mm sizing die is tapered to match factory/SAAMI spec. Any further info on this would be great, but the CH4D sizes right down to the base and preserves the exact case taper.

[mdi]

Your post sound like a good start. I also would "warn" you that the 9mm is a bit more difficult to get just right for cast bullets (I had been shooting cast bullets in 5 different calibers and when I started casting for a 9mm, I was "challenged"!). But it can be done. It'll take the right alloy, bullet diameter, a good lube and the right powder/powder charge. Don't get discouraged by barrel leading, it's not permanent...:roll: I settled on a Lee 125 gr. RNFP of Lyman #2 (my mix) over a charge of Universal to be pretty accurate and leading free in my 3, 9mm pistols.

Learn to use the "Plunk Test" for determining OAL for each bullet you reload, and I'd suggest this test over any cartridge gauge. I use a separate taper crimp die, in a second step, to remove any flare, just enough to pass the plunk test 100%. As a new reloader you'll prolly get suggestions to use a Lee FCD for handguns, but I would highly suggest you learn proper die adjustment and you won't need to resize your finished handloads.

Go slow. Double check everything. And most important, have fun...

[toallmy]

Something worth mentioning / pull a round to make sure your not sizing your cast boolits smaller when your loading them .

[rintinglen]

Load a magazine or two BEFORE you start converting that bucket o' brass into ammo. I had to break down 500 rounds some years back because I neglected to try before I bought. They plunked just fine, but were a scosh too long for the magazine. Attempting to seat the boolits deeper raised a ring of lead, so it was wasted weekend with me and my trusting Quinetics want-a-bee banging away.
In fact, I'd load no more than twenty rounds on my first go round and then test fire them to make sure everything works OK.

Only then would I shift to production mode.

[Big Jake]

I appreciate all of the tips here. I have decided to proceed with 9 taking all of this into account. MDI as you mentioned the LEE factory crimp die, that’s exactly what I got. Kind of seems like cheating but I need to get things figured out. And like all have mentioned, I will be doing a lot of small batch testing Before loading in mass. I just figured out that 9mm is a tapered case, I never noticed that before. I will be trying out the other calibers in the set like 44 mag, 357 and 30 carbine with gas checks, but I need to start somewhere. Sounds like I picked the hardest one, which is ok.

[trapper9260]

You will ok with all that is told you to do.It is not as hard as it sound. Just do it all in steps.

[gwpercle]

I appreciate all of the tips here. I have decided to proceed with 9 taking all of this into account. MDI as you mentioned the LEE factory crimp die, that’s exactly what I got. Kind of seems like cheating but I need to get things figured out. And like all have mentioned, I will be doing a lot of small batch testing Before loading in mass. I just figured out that 9mm is a tapered case, I never noticed that before. I will be trying out the other calibers in the set like 44 mag, 357 and 30 carbine with gas checks, but I need to start somewhere. Sounds like I picked the hardest one, which is ok.

Seating plain base boolits was one of the glitches I ran into , I wanted to use a alloy of 50-50
COWW and lead air cooled, this isn't a very hard alloy. I solved it with a NOE 358-124 -TC-GC that truncated cone boolit with the gas check allowed seating without squeezing down the base and velocities of 1000 fps with no leading whatsoever . Just wanted to pass on the gas check tip .
Gas checked 9mm moulds are hard to find but NOE has them.
Also this boolit is a humdinger in both 357 Magnum and 38 Special, I noted you load for 357 .
I also use a tapered steel CH4D for sizing, the carbide Lee over sized them too much , no taper and they even looked funny.
Gary

[mdi]

I appreciate all of the tips here. I have decided to proceed with 9 taking all of this into account. MDI as you mentioned the LEE factory crimp die, that’s exactly what I got. Kind of seems like cheating but I need to get things figured out. And like all have mentioned, I will be doing a lot of small batch testing Before loading in mass. I just figured out that 9mm is a tapered case, I never noticed that before. I will be trying out the other calibers in the set like 44 mag, 357 and 30 carbine with gas checks, but I need to start somewhere. Sounds like I picked the hardest one, which is ok.

The Lee die just hides mistakes (IMO), and with proper die adjustments one does not get bulged cases. I have successfully been loading semi-auto ammo for over 30 years without the need to resize my finished handloads.

[Big Jake]

So I got my Lyman cast boolit handbook and was disappointed in the fact that I don’t see many of the molds listed that I have. Is there a rule of thumb of some sort to cross reference? By that I mean, can I use data for a bullet of the same weight? I know that OAL affects pressure a lot so it’s hard to know where to start. For instance I have an rcbs 9mm-124-RN but the book only lists 124-CN. Also for 45 acp I have the Lee 452-230-TC but the Lyman book only lists the tumble lube version. Close enough with those 2 examples to use the starting loads for the comparable molds?

[Petrol & Powder]

Big Jake, you're starting with one of the more difficult cartridges to load with cast bullets.
The 9mm Luger is a fine cartridge that has been with us for well over a 100 years but when attempting to reload 9mm with cast projectiles it can be a bit frustrating to get all of the details ironed out.
Complicating the issue is the tendency for 9mm pistols to be all over the place in terms of groove diameter, chamber size & length, different feed angles and throat profiles. None of the problems are impossible to overcome but it can take some time.
You'll get there if you attack one issue at a time and pick one pistol to load for until you get it sorted out.

As for your load data in your Lyman cast bullet manual, you've discovered why there are so many different manuals ;) !
If you pick up a Speer manual it will show data for Speer bullets. If you pick up a Sierra manual it will show data for Sierra bullets, etc.

If you're looking at two different cast bullets that are very close in weight and the base of the bullet ends up in the same place relative to the casing (same volume in the casing behind the seated bullet) chances are good that you can use the data interchangeably.

People get a little confused sometimes when talking about overall length. That measurement is easy to see and verify but it's only part of the equation. When we're dealing with pistol bullets (as opposed to revolvers) the cartridge must fit in a magazine, be of a length that will feed and the profile of the bullet affects how it feeds from the magazine into the chamber. THEN, we also have to be concerned about the volume in the casing behind the seated bullet.

If you have two bullets that are similar in weight, nose profile and when seated have the same volume behind the bullet in the casing - you can generally use the same starting load and work up.

The 9mm has a small case capacity and deep seated bullets will quickly result in high pressures. You don't need to be terrified about that problem, you just need to be aware of that problem.

[John McCorkle]

That's good wisdom about 9mm being more complicated, but it's not insurmountable...and just as he said tackle one factor at a time and account for that when testing (ie don't give up on it)

It'll take time but once you got it you'll love it.

Free brass for our lifetime (range pickups abound) dab of lead a pinch of powder and a new primer makes 9mm superbly economic...which equates to more range time and better skill.

When I'm 87...there will still be 9mm brass to be had...not sure that will be the case for 32 short, 32-20, or others....but you can 'catch a row' and cast for this caliber for the rest of your life

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[fredj338]

IMO, gc just are not needed for any handgun calibers running harder than pure lead. I have had them removed from most of my molds that had them. Seems paying 3c for a gc kinda defeats the point of casting my own to save some money?? Not to mention the hassle of seating a gc.

[Wheelguns 1961]

With 9mm as with all cartridges start out with the starting charge and work up.

[Big Jake]

I Decided I’m going to start with 45 acp instead. Getting close now, got my alloying process done and cast into ingots. Melted some scrap lead and added a few bars of Linotype as well as a chunk of foundry type from rotometals. I did a BHN test on some test bullets and it’s about 14, so I’m figuring after they age a couple weeks it should be more than hard enough for most of the calibers I plan to start with. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/5986s/9FD680C7-9097-46CE-9A30-528AEBF7F4B2.jpeg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/5986s/media/9FD680C7-9097-46CE-9A30-528AEBF7F4B2.jpeg.html)

[Forrest r]

It's almost like you're over thinking things. That 14bhn alloy is more than enough for your shooting needs for the calibers you're reloading for. Myself, I use range scrap that is either air cooled +/- 9bhn or water dropped +/- 12bhn for same calibers you plan on reloading for. What that 14bhn alloy will do is help you protect the base of your bullets.

The base of the cast bullet is where the game's won or lost.

Most reloading dies are designed for jacketed bullets which ='s small/short expanders. I use the lyman m-die expander for most of my reloads. They have a long body that expands deeper and a step that aids in starting the bullet strait when seating them.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

If you look at the factory lee expander you will see a ring line from the brass. I use the lee factory expander for jacketed bullets and the lyman m-die for my cast bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

45acp reloads with my cast bullets that are sized to .452" & has a 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's taper crimp. What you don't see is bullet bulge or wasp waist/can see the bullet in the case from the case being under expanded.
https://i.imgur.com/rQlREhC.jpg

Those reloads pictured above, nothing more then the test target used to test loads/not hand or cherry picked by any means.
45acp 10-shot group @ 50ft
https://i.imgur.com/lxO5I66.jpg

Went with a custom expander for the 9mm. The lyman 38s&w m-die or neo expanders will work, it was just easier to make 1.
https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg
That custom expander allows me to load not only standard length bullets I use/load long bullet in the 9mm.
https://i.imgur.com/V87WlTN.jpg
The long expander protects the base of the bullets in the short 9mm cases. But again no bulge or wasp waist and a 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's taper crimp. More targets that are not hand/cherry picked by any means. Nothing more than the test targets used to tests loads in the 9mm.
A 10-shot group @ 50ft using water dropped range scrap that was pc'd, sized to .358" with a +/25,000psi load (+/- 1100fps)
https://i.imgur.com/N6XBlbc.jpg
A 10-shot 50yd group with a 100+ year old bullet design, the lyman 35870 cast with a custom hb pin.
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

Strait walled cases with roll crimps are the easiest to reload, 38spl's/357's/44cal's/etc. I use the lyman m-die expanders for those calibers. No bulge/wasp waist & protect the bullet's bases. 6-shot groups @ 50ft from a 686 using 158gr cast bullets sized to .358".
https://i.imgur.com/AL4WBux.jpg

6-shot groups that would do 1 1/2" or less @ 25yds from a beater s&w 629. It got boring real quick/quit testing loads after finding 13 different loads in 2 range sessions. Water dropped range scrap sized to .430".
https://i.imgur.com/BAyAIIY.jpg

Anyway, don't worry about the alloy. Worry about how to protest the bullet & how to seat it strait in the cases. I use expanders designed for cast bullets in every caliber I use my cast bullets to reload for. I seat & crimp the bullets in the same stage when I roll crimp. I seat the bullets in 1 stage and crimp them in another stage when I taper crimp (9mm/45acp).

[squidtamer]

Seems you're missing the "prime the case" step between decapping and adding powder in your list ;)

On the old single stage I tended to do that on a hand-held old thing kinda like RCBS made in the 90s but without the tray, but that was just me. You could do it on the up-stroke on many single stages presses with some swing-ins and inserts.
Wonder if that old thing is on the shelf here somewhere. hmmm.

[Big Jake]

Don’t worry, I did not forget the primer, speaking of which... does anyone have load data for 45 acp with small pistol primers? I did not know some manufacturers started changing to these and that’s all I have in my brass bucket. Watched a couple comparison videos with a Chrono comparing small large and small magnum and small and large standard averaged exactly the same with the same powder


I loaded up some 357 and 45 acp rounds today. 25 of each.

357 recipe
Rcbs 38-150-swc
BAC lube
14.4gr of Hercules 2400( I had an unopened jug of this)
CCI magnum small pistol
COL 1.59
Data used from RCBS cast bullet manual


45acp
Lee 452-230-TC
BAC lube
Sized .452
5.2 gr Unique
Small pistol?
COL 1.17
Data used from Lyman cast boolit book #4 for the TL version of this boolit

And yes Forrest R I am definitely over thinking it, but all of this will bug me till I have all the variables figured out

[P Flados]

Yet another vote for "starting with the 9mm is asking for pain".

I loaded a lot before attempting the 9mm.

As luck would have it, the gun in question (Glock 17) turned out to be a real challenge even with powder coated boolits.

Big items for me, were:


The need for a bigger than normal expander (the cases were squeezing down my range lead boolits too much. I eventually made my own custom expander)

Using select headstamps only (Fed, Blazer, CCI). Other stuff caused me problems at both ends. Primers not seating good and inconsistent case tension holding the boolit.

Seating with no crimp followed by "flare removal only" in a crimp die. Seating and crimping in one pass would shave lead and some of this lead would accumulate at the front of the chamber resulting in failure to fully go into battery.


The only 45 acp that I have loaded for was quick and easy in comparison. At both ends (a big 230 RN and the miserly 180 SWC at the other end) I cast up the boolits, tumble lubed them, seated them to the crimp groove and watched them work great. Loads from starting to book max cycled the action fine.

Any revolver round is typically going to be easy to get decent function. Leading free can be hard if there is a "fit" problem or if you just have one of those ornery guns (I have a couple).

[JeffG]

Also for 45 acp I have the Lee 452-230-TC but the Lyman book only lists the tumble lube version. Close enough with those 2 examples to use the starting loads for the comparable molds?

I believe the shapes of those 2 bullets are about the same. I'm using the 452-230-TC, shooting an M&P 45 Compact and SA XD 45 full size. To chamber the rounds on mine, I need to seat them to OAL = 1.175. I'm been using Accurate #5 powder but just worked up some yesterday using SR-4756, 6.2 grains. The brass fell about 2 feet to my right in a small area. I have not chronographed it yet but it feels nice and mild for 25 yard plate work.