St. Louis Munitions Plant?

[Big Boomer]

Yesterday a young man gave me a .30-06 round of ammunition and two .50 caliber bullets he said were among his grandfather's "stuff" that he picked up and kept from WW II. The .30-06 round is head-stamped S L and across from the S L the number 4. My presumption is that round was manufactured by the St. Louis Munitions Plant in 1944. The tip of the bullet in the '06 round (about 1/4 inch in length) is a brighter color copper or brass than the rest of the bullet and the cartridge case and remains relatively bright despite its age. Can't help but wonder if the copper jacket covers a hardened steel penetrator round rather than lead. The two .50 caliber bullets must not have not been fired because there are no rifling marks on the bullets. The copper jackets of the .50 caliber bullets are very dark brown, almost black. The base of the bullets have a round hole in the jacket with rust showing. Again, my presumption is that this is a hardened steel bullet with a copper jacket. Anyone have a clue on these items? Wish I could post pics … but I am 'puter challenged. Big Boomer

[Thumbcocker]

Salt lake I believe.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Salt Lake. As for the bullet descriptions, I think your assumptions about steel cores are accurate.

[Outpost75]

Salt lake I believe.

NEGATIVE! St. Louis, MO Ordnance Plant was a GOCO operated by U.S. Cartridge Co.



Utah Ordnance Plant headstamp is U, operated by Remington Union Metallic Cartridge Co.

APM2 of WW2 period had open base with core inserted from base.

Open point bullet with bronze cone protruding from nose is a reload or bullet swap using a Remington Bronze Point expanding bullet.
Open

Uta

[Preacher Jim]

St. Louis plant made small arms ammo for Vietnam also now an empty building

[sigep1764]

Olin still manufactures Winchester brand ammunition across the river from St Louis in Alton Ill. They are based here in the St Louis area.

[GARD72977]

Olin still manufactures Winchester brand ammunition across the river from St Louis in Alton Ill. They are based here in the St Louis area.

East Alton only does the shotgun shells. Centerfire and rimfire are in Oxford MS.

[Big Boomer]

Pretty sure this .30-06 round does not contain a reloaded bullet ... it is not hollow pointed. The cartridge case really shows its age as does all the bullet except for the point. Thanks for the ideas of origin advanced regarding this round as well as the .50 caliber bullets. Big Boomer

[nicholst55]

Does the bullet in the .30 round look like this?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=remington+bronze+point+bullets&t=ffnt&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.midwayusa.com%2Fproductimag es%2F880x660%2FPrimary%2F553%2F553355.jpg

Remington Bronze Point

Here are the most common types of US manufactured .30 ammo:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us+army+30+caliber+ammo+types&t=ffnt&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fi543.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg g475%2FDaveElf%2FCal%252030%2520Group%2520002a_zps whdbr4ks.jpg

And here's a more thorough explanation:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us+army+30+caliber+ammo+types&t=ffnt&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalsecurity.org%2Fmilitar y%2Flibrary%2Fpolicy%2Farmy%2Ffm%2F23-65%2Ffig1-14.gif

[Big Boomer]

nicholst55: In this: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us+army+30...pswhdbr4ks.jpg where the 6 .30-06 rounds are shown, the bullet is like the second from the right or the next to the last one. Seamless transition from the ogive of the bullet to the brighter point which is about 1/4 inch long. You nailed it. BTW, what kind of bullet is that? Big Boomer

[Paper Puncher]

50 cal ball m2 has a mild steel core. M2 AP has a hardened steel core

[edp2k]

A magnet will discern a steel core from a lead one.

[reddog81]

Yeah, test with a magnet.

[Big Boomer]

I keep a magnet in my reloading room … but it never even occurred to me to use it to test these bullets out. Sometimes I overlook the obvious. What is that old axe, "If my head was not attached, I would lose it?" I'll check with the magnet and see what I have here and reply in the morning. Big Boomer

[corbinace]

Is there any chance the brighter area was once covered by paint, now long gone?

[EDG]

In about 1969 I began reloading. I found a gunsmith whose son had gathered up many crates of machine gun fired SL-54 30-06 brass.
I bought about 1000 of his cleanest cases. I have been reforming them for years and still have a lot of them all with the same SL-54 head stamp.

[Big Boomer]

This morning I took a magnet to the two 50 caliber bullets and the bullet in the .30-06 round. The magnet was strong on the .30-06 bullet but not on the 50 caliber bullets, side or base where the jacket may be thinner. I had forgotten that I have a few tungsten carbide .30 caliber bullets that were given to me by an old lifer Marine friend. When I applied the magnet to the tungsten carbide bullets, the magnetism was weak. The two 50 caliber bullets were less responsive to the magnet than the .30-06 bullet. While all these bullets react to the magnet, it is weaker than the bullet in the .30-06 round. The tungsten carbide rounds that I have, have a black tip. The .30-06 round is not black tipped. The cartridge case and bullet are about the same shade of dark brown color except for the lighter bullet tip that has a smooth, unbroken surface from the end of the cartridge case to the tip. Since the bullets and the live cartridge were given to me by a friend, I prefer not to break the round down by pulling the bullet, though I would like to compare the bullet with the tungsten carbide ones. Still somewhat in the dark unless I break the round down. Thanks for the help all. Big Boomer

[EDG]

The core of USGI .30 cal AP is not tungsten carbide it is heat treated steel - probably just case hardened low carbon steel because that is the cheapest non strategic material.
A tungsten carbide core would $2 or $3 each.
During WWII the 76mm HVAP antitank ammo supplied for the 76mm Shermans had tungsten cores an it was always in short supply. Usually only 3 or 4 rounds per tank were available if that many.

Due to rarity and expense tungsten, cobalt and titanium are considered strategic materials by the US government. Such materials are discouraged for use on new military designs due to the potential for shortages during war time emergencies.

[Big Boomer]

EDG: Interesting! My old Marine friend mentioned earlier who gave me these bullets also gave me a gallon can of take-down gun powder, a gallon can of 150 (think they were actually 147) gr. jacketed bullets, and I don't remember how many of these bullets that have an extremely hard core - of whatever composition. I shot one round into a sand rock out in the boondocks and had to go home and get some special chisels and return to retrieve the core. The core could only be polished by a NEW file. The core also had little barbs, I presume to hang onto the jacket. When the bullet hit the sandrock, it shed the copper jacket and just kept on going. I had to dig and dig until I finally got deep into the sand rock in order to retrieve the penetrator core. Someone told me they were tungsten carbide, so that is why I used the term - not really knowing the full implication of the terms. Thanks for the education. Big Boomer

[curdog]

It was made in St Louis. My Mom worked at the plant in St. Louis. She worked on the 30 caliber line during ww2 while my Dad was in Italy fighting the Nazis. You can google the plant and it tells about it.

[Wag]

Here's a list:

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes?page=headstampcodes#S

--Wag--

[Big Boomer]

curdog: After looking up the meaning of the S L on the cartridge case, I looked up the info available on the St. Louis ordinance plant and saw the very buildings you refer to on that web site. Thanks for the info. Big Boomer

Wag: That's the list I found that put me on the trail of the St. Louis ordinance plant. Shame it is virtually all out of commission now. Big Boomer

[Jniedbalski]

The St. Louis plant that made ammo for ww2 is in north St. Louis. The federal building that I went to for my new Id had a plaque on the wall. It showed the different steps on making 50 cal bullets and cases .It showed the copper discs then the drawing proses to make them . This was about 6 years ago. I don’t know if this was the only place in St. Louis that made them but it was still open then as a federal building offices. I thank it was right off the highway heading north before the airport. I thank it said on the plaque that ammo was made there until Korea or Vietnam.

[Jniedbalski]

The building that I went to was a smaller office building.with other smaller buildings around it. The main building was torn down a few years before that

[Paper Puncher]

EDG: Interesting! My old Marine friend mentioned earlier who gave me these bullets also gave me a gallon can of take-down gun powder, a gallon can of 150 (think they were actually 147) gr. jacketed bullets, and I don't remember how many of these bullets that have an extremely hard core - of whatever composition. I shot one round into a sand rock out in the boondocks and had to go home and get some special chisels and return to retrieve the core. The core could only be polished by a NEW file. The core also had little barbs, I presume to hang onto the jacket. When the bullet hit the sandrock, it shed the copper jacket and just kept on going. I had to dig and dig until I finally got deep into the sand rock in order to retrieve the penetrator core. Someone told me they were tungsten carbide, so that is why I used the term - not really knowing the full implication of the terms. Thanks for the education. Big Boomer

If the 147 gr bullets where boat tail then they where probably M80 Ball (for 7.62x51) M2 Ball 150 gr where flat base.
There is a tungsten AP round M993 for the 7.62. It weighed about 127 gr I think.
The problem with the magnet test is a lot of jackets where made of steel.
I don't recall seeing barbs on any of the AP cores, interesting. Drawings for the 30 AP M2 show it as being smooth sided.

Those AP cores are HARD. Used to use 50 AP cores for a center punch.

[Big Boomer]

Paper Puncher: It so happens that I do have one of those 147 gr. bullets left … sort of. I had forgotten about it. They were boat tails but in one of my mis-led moments, I cut the tip off some of them to identical lengths and hollow-pointed them. Only one left. I shot most of them as they were originally out of a Win. M670 .30-06 and gave the remainder to a young friend. Don't remember the load but they shot pretty well. Don't remember how the hollow pointed version shot except that in a water-filled milk jug they were pretty violent. The black-tipped "penetraters" weigh 161.5 grains. The hardened inner part that I shot into the sand rock was so hard a new file would not make a mark on it. The file would only "polish" the surface. Big Boomer

[EDG]

The old gunsmith who had the cases of SL-54 brass lived in an old house with about a 300 ft high hill behind it. He let locals shoot there a bit. I always noticed the dozens of 30 cal penetrator cores exposed by rain run off water carrying away soil at the backstop. The cores were always rusty because of the steel content. Tungsten does not rust.

[Big Boomer]

EDG: Thanks for the info. Stands to reason. If not fe, it will not rust. Big Boomer

[429421Cowboy]

I'll have to dig up a picture and post it here but I found a .50 BMG casing laying in the desert near Rachel, Nevada just outside the current day bombing range at Nellis AFB that has the S L 4 headstamp and you can still see the marks where it was linked. I figure it was a pilot in a P51 training for the Pacific theater, maybe straifing antelope or wild horses.