Sizing 10 mm with powder coat

[wendyj]

Slugged my Glock 20 barrel. .398 on low side and .402 on the high side. I just ordered the Lee 6 cavity TC mold which is .401. I'm hoping powder coating adds enough dimension to add some to it. Was curious of what sizer die I should order. Going to use a push through bushing from NOE. Any suggestions would help. Coot sent me some lubed .402 and they leaded the barrel pretty bad. No ones fault but mine. I stripped lube off and they come out about .405 powder coated. Hard to seat at that thickness. Just trying to keep from buying Lone Wolf or KKM barrel.

[fredj338]

I always size my PC bullets. You can order a 0.402" sizer & try that. I do fine with 0.401"+ for my 10mm. The plus is I had it polished by a machinist friend so it is a bit over 0.401".

[EMR]

Slugged my Glock 20 barrel. .398 on low side and .402 on the high side. I just ordered the Lee 6 cavity TC mold which is .401. I'm hoping powder coating adds enough dimension to add some to it. Was curious of what sizer die I should order. Going to use a push through bushing from NOE. Any suggestions would help. Coot sent me some lubed .402 and they leaded the barrel pretty bad. No ones fault but mine. I stripped lube off and they come out about .405 powder coated. Hard to seat at that thickness. Just trying to keep from buying Lone Wolf or KKM barrel.

I’ve had good luck sizing at least .002 larger than the largest slug size diameter. So in your case I’d try .404. PC for me adds .003 to my boolits if I tap off the excess, which might put your boolits at .404 if the Lee drops at .401.

If you find it’s hard to seat thicker boolits, try using an M-die.

[wendyj]

I spoke with Al at Noe and he recommended .403 for a happy medium. Only 8.00 for the bushing so if that doesn't work I can go up or down I hope. I rechecked the powder coat bullets I have and they are .405.5

[Taterhead]

Are you really sure that the groove diameter is .402? That would be an outlier based on reports of other G20 owners like myself. Mine is a touch over .400, so 401 boolits run great. The issue is that a 403 is going to be tight in the G20 chamber. Glock chambers are notoriously generous, but mine is tight right at the end of the chamber. Even tighter than my Dillon gauge. Generous at the feedramp area as we all know.

If you do look for aftermarket, probably KKM would serve better than a Lone Wolf since they will work with you to open the throat if needed for cast. I dont think LW offers that service any longer (at least there have been inconsistent reports).

[popper]

I'd try the 401 & 402, you can open them up as needed. Alloy hardness will change sized dia.

[DougGuy]

I can throat the Glock barrel if neccesary, it is salt bath hardened but I have a carbide throater that doesn't have much wear on it. I want to say it finishes freebore right at .4025" or so.

[wendyj]

According to my slug it is .40185. Close to .402. I traded a 29 for it so I've no idea of how many times it's been fired. I get great accuracy with factory ammo in it still. I'll resize .403 when set gets here. If it doesn't work I can order the next size down. Lead will be clip on ww with 2%tin. Just going to try the Lee 6 banger for plinkers. Using dt for woods carry.

[wendyj]

Well, the .403 sizer isn't going to work. Having to seat bullets a few thousandths past the crimp groove. Also flaring case mouth the extra thousands is making cases buckle when seating and crimping. Tried no crimp, light crimp, heavy crimp and no go. The .402 plain lead will seat okay but a little powder coating sized at.403 is just too much. Guess I am going to go back and order a .401 and give that a try. The Hornady dies were doing a good job on the cast without the powder coating but not with it. The Lee mold I bought is throwing perfect at .402. I was surprised the mold done so well. The few I had after getting the dies set up and finally passed the plunk test in the barrel were too long to fit in the magazine. Strangely enough the bullets I had powder coated that were given to me loaded up fine powder coated and unsized. Wondering if sizer didn't elongate the bullet some. Not giving up yet but looking for advise. Should have bought the 10 mm revolver . LOL

[Taterhead]

The size necessarily elongates the bullet since that diameter must go somewhere. You might also look at one of NOEs expander plugs. Stuffing a 403 diameter bullet into a 397 neck inside diameter is a lot to ask. The standard expander shank in the basic die sets is too narrow for the diameters you're working with.

Here is an example. Works with a Lee Universal expanding die.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=565_89&products_id=4577&osCsid=k9l4bt3k3qo9i5mhn0tlkb60j5

I use an RCBS 401 Cowboy expander for my 10mm 401 cast with great success. Same principle as the up sized NOE plugs.

[Tackleberry41]

You may have started with 405 bullets, but the case will swage them down unless expanded properly. Really need those NOE expanders, what comes with standard dies is for jacketed.

I do not have a 10mm, but cast plenty for several 40 S&W. I cast and size, then powder coat and size again. But if your starting out undersize, PC wont make that big of a difference.

I see none of the of the 10mm/40S&W molds are gas checked. Velocities 10mm runs at if it was a 357 or 44 would probably need gas checks.

[wendyj]

These will just be plinking rounds for myself. It's my husbands gun and he shoots underwood and double tap through it for mimself. Underwood I'm sure of. I think the other is double tap. Will the Noe expander fit in Hornady dies?? Regardless I'm going to call Al and grab a .401 size bushing if they will size that far down. Was thinking of a Storm Lake or Lone Wolf barrel but from what I read specs of chamber are tighter than oem Glock barrel. Then forget powder coating.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Wendy: the Powder Coating will eliminate leading. If you size to .401-2 you will be fine.

All you are looking for is accuracy now so whatever size delivers that is where you need to be. If you have the dies I'd start at .401 and work up as necessary.

Your taper crimp should measure .417-.418 at the case mouth, and should work fine.

I assume you are not running these at Rock and Roll Velocities? The PC should work in that caliber at anything below 12-1300 fps. I run Gas Checked PC'd .44's at 1600-1800 fps from my Marlin Rifle with no leading or clean up beyond one clean patch run down the barrel to push out the powder fouling from the last shot fired.

Good Luck

Randy

[popper]

Having to seat bullets a few thousandths past the crimp groove It doesn't have a crimp groove. If you mean lube groove, try seating with the front band edge out 0.050" from the mouth. Seater and crimp dies are probably too small dia to handle that fat boolit with a big flare. I use the Lyman with a larger spud turned down by a machine shop (it takes carbide tool to do the job).
I have the NOE expander & sizer, IIRC the sizer is actual hole dia. Harder alloy will be larger due to spring back.
NOE stuff works, I have the set for 308, 40,9 but don't use them as what I had before works fine and is less setup problem. i can state that JB weld will NOT work to increase the expander size.

[wendyj]

I think I found my problem after inking the case and bullet. It appears crimp was too tight and bulging the case below the bullet. I tried no crimp and was too thick at the front. Plunk test and magazine fit are a go now. I'm still going to order the .401 sizer and hope taking it down .004 isn't too much. Might as well order the expander while I'm at it. I'm only running 5.3 grains of Titegroup for starters which is lightest load per Lyman 50th. Don't care much for the powder and have others but it was something to start with. My bullet has a lube groove and a crimp groove from what I see. Lee TC 170. Flat nose bullet. Changed sizing stem from round nose to flat stem. I have to stay consistent at 1.60 or oal is too long for the mag. I'm seating and crimping in same step.

[Taterhead]

Wendy: the Powder Coating will eliminate leading. If you size to .401-2 you will be fine.

All you are looking for is accuracy now so whatever size delivers that is where you need to be. If you have the dies I'd start at .401 and work up as necessary.

Your taper crimp should measure .417-.418 at the case mouth, and should work fine.

I assume you are not running these at Rock and Roll Velocities? The PC should work in that caliber at anything below 12-1300 fps. I run Gas Checked PC'd .44's at 1600-1800 fps from my Marlin Rifle with no leading or clean up beyond one clean patch run down the barrel to push out the powder fouling from the last shot fired.

Good Luck

Randy

Good advice overall, except that a crimp to .417 would be excessive. Anything beyond .422 with Starline cases will turn the case mouth into the bullet. No bueno. With a 401 boo lit, anything narrower than 423 is more than straightening the bell. Brass thickness .011x2 + 401 = .423".

[popper]

Is that a custom mould? I have the 401-175 TC & 175 swc, neither have a crimp groove and the Lee cat. Doesn't show anything else. You can size before PC and after if needed.

[wendyj]

Maybe not a crimp groove but last band on bullet underneath the wadcutter itself. It has a lube groove and then the other band which I assumed was the crimping groove.

[popper]

Ok, the 175swc, not TC. Not a crimp groove. Has tumble lube bands. Seat so the mouth is on the front drive band. It works ok in my 40 but I prefer the TC design.

[wendyj]

227999No tumble lube bands. It's the TC. One on left is a bullet I had pulled. The other was just cast.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Good advice overall, except that a crimp to .417 would be excessive. Anything beyond .422 with Starline cases will turn the case mouth into the bullet. No bueno. With a 401 boo lit, anything narrower than 423 is more than straightening the bell. Brass thickness .011x2 + 401 = .423".

I heard what you said, but I disagree totally. The purpose of the crimp is to hold the boolit in place and to prevent boolit setback. Relying on case neck tension is not always enough to insure that setback doesn't occur, and especially on calibers like 10MM where the cycling of the gun is more violent than lesser calibers.

You are one of the people who only uses the crimp die to remove the case bell. I consider this to be very risky and especially on a High Pressure Cartridge like the .40 S&W/10MM.

I use the crimp to actually penetrate into the boolit and create a step to prevent boolit setback when the pistol is cycling. If you look closely at Factory Ammo that is what you will see. Also there is still enough case mouth exposed to headspace reliably.

Boolit setback causes pressure spikes which in the case of these high pressure rounds is really no bueno !

I got that .417-.418 number directly from and article on loading .40 S&W by Brian Pearce in Handloader Magazine. Since the .40 is nothing more than a shortened 10MM the same holds true for it. I have loaded and fired literally thousands of rounds like this both on a Dillon SDB and a 550B and fired in two different Glocks and a Kel-Tec S2K rifle.

But,,, and I want to emphasize this,,, Comparing your reloaded ammo to Factory Loaded Ammo is one of the best things you can do as a reloader. If you can compare your ammo directly to factory ammo and it measures the same and looks the same, as long as your powder charge is not too much,(which is really the only variable) your ammo will run reliably and be safe.

Here is Pic of a Winchester NT Factory Loaded Round. The case mouth is .418 on the nose with my calipers. Just for giggles I went down to the shop and measured it on my Optical Comparator. .41765

One of the problems that arises is actually getting a good measurement right at the case mouth with dial calipers. It is difficult for many, including myself, who has been a machinist for 35+ years.

There is a reason why the factories load ammo the way that they do, and it is pretty simple really.

It is the safest ammo you can obtain. If they didn't need the crimp do you think that over the course of literally billions of rounds that they wouldn't eliminate it. It would save a bunch of money, and they are definitely doing this for the money!

The only subtraction from that money would come from lawsuits.

We as reloaders are only trying to duplicate that level of safety as much as possible in our homes and garages. But we don't have the resources to test our reloads beyond shooting them.

Many people do as you suggest, many do what I have laid out.

This is America and you have a choice! And of course YMMV

Randy

[popper]

I load on a single state press and do the eating and crimp is separate steps. When seating I can feel a loose boolit. When I crimp (just get a shiny ring at the mouth), again, by feel. I don't trim pistol brass so I get a proper crimp independent of case length. I don't bother separating by H.S. I plunk test every round that goes in a S.A. - don't like surprises. Every once in a while a hard alloy or thicker case will bulge and I just run it all the way down in the RCBS seater/crimper. I use those for plinking and sometimes I get leading but the next (good) one cleans barrel pretty good.

[Taterhead]

I heard what you said, but I disagree totally. The purpose of the crimp is to hold the boolit in place and to prevent boolit setback. Relying on case neck tension is not always enough to insure that setback doesn't occur, and especially on calibers like 10MM where the cycling of the gun is more violent than lesser calibers.

You are one of the people who only uses the crimp die to remove the case bell. I consider this to be very risky and especially on a High Pressure Cartridge like the .40 S&W/10MM.

I use the crimp to actually penetrate into the boolit and create a step to prevent boolit setback when the pistol is cycling. If you look closely at Factory Ammo that is what you will see. Also there is still enough case mouth exposed to headspace reliably.

Boolit setback causes pressure spikes which in the case of these high pressure rounds is really no bueno !

I got that .417-.418 number directly from and article on loading .40 S&W by Brian Pearce in Handloader Magazine. Since the .40 is nothing more than a shortened 10MM the same holds true for it. I have loaded and fired literally thousands of rounds like this both on a Dillon SDB and a 550B and fired in two different Glocks and a Kel-Tec S2K rifle.

But,,, and I want to emphasize this,,, Comparing your reloaded ammo to Factory Loaded Ammo is one of the best things you can do as a reloader. If you can compare your ammo directly to factory ammo and it measures the same and looks the same, as long as your powder charge is not too much,(which is really the only variable) your ammo will run reliably and be safe.

Here is Pic of a Winchester NT Factory Loaded Round. The case mouth is .418 on the nose with my calipers. Just for giggles I went down to the shop and measured it on my Optical Comparator. .41765

One of the problems that arises is actually getting a good measurement right at the case mouth with dial calipers. It is difficult for many, including myself, who has been a machinist for 35+ years.

There is a reason why the factories load ammo the way that they do, and it is pretty simple really.

It is the safest ammo you can obtain. If they didn't need the crimp do you think that over the course of literally billions of rounds that they wouldn't eliminate it. It would save a bunch of money, and they are definitely doing this for the money!

The only subtraction from that money would come from lawsuits.

We as reloaders are only trying to duplicate that level of safety as much as possible in our homes and garages. But we don't have the resources to test our reloads beyond shooting them.

Many people do as you suggest, many do what I have laid out.

This is America and you have a choice! And of course YMMV

Randy

Off topic, so what I had written here originally is deleted. We're just going to disagree on a few points.

[cwlongshot]

Slugged my Glock 20 barrel. .398 on low side and .402 on the high side. I just ordered the Lee 6 cavity TC mold which is .401. I'm hoping powder coating adds enough dimension to add some to it. Was curious of what sizer die I should order. Going to use a push through bushing from NOE. Any suggestions would help. Coot sent me some lubed .402 and they leaded the barrel pretty bad. No ones fault but mine. I stripped lube off and they come out about .405 powder coated. Hard to seat at that thickness. Just trying to keep from buying Lone Wolf or KKM barrel.

Did you discover the solution to your issues here?

I have shot allot of 10mm. Thru five different guns two where glocks and in those two three different barrels including a LW and a KKM.

I shoot PC from six different designs and all get sized to 401. Hard to soft mild to “Wild”.

CW

[Lloyd Smale]

I size after I coat and size all my 10s and 40s to 401. Glocks, smiths, and sigs. Now im not going to tell you that's absolutely the best size for accuracy because I quit benching black guns years ago. I might sit and shoot 10 shots out of a new gun just to make sure its expectable but there not target guns and if I want tiny groups ill take out a 1911 or a revolver. Add to that a bigger bullet is just more likely not to run a 100 percent. It might run fine for you in a clean gun but after a 100 rounds it just might make it choke. Little bit to much of a bulge and the one time you need it to run it might not. Reliability is more of a concern with black guns to me then small groups. Don't bother with the wolf barrel. I bought one for my 20 and it was to tightly chambered even for 401s and didn't shoot a bit better with cast then the factory barrel. Id say it was a waste of a 100 bucks but I got 75 out of it used.

[scotner]

Don't write off black plastic guns for accuracy. This was my first outing with boolits from the Lee 6 cavity and sized with the Lee .401 sizer. These were the starting loads for Bullseye, 231, Unique and AA #5 using data for the Lyman 401638 from Lyman 47th manual. AA #5 looks promising. Shot from a sandbag at 15 yards with the XDm 10 OSP. It was 95° yesterday and this was supposed to be mostly a coating test so I did not spend a whole lot of time out there. The smaller holes dispersed around the target are 357 Sig from a Glock. Not sure yet how that one is going to work out.