Ugly but low cost 2500Watt PID Ladle Only Pot ...

[wquiles]

I have been casting for over 20 years, and I never been satisfied with my casting pot. The bottom pour speed/quantify varies as the pot empties, and although the ladle works more consistently, the pot that I have been using (a Lee bottom pour permanently modified for ladle only with a PID) is not quite wide enough for the 4x cavity molds I now use almost exclusively.

I then saw this pot, and saw how relatively easy was to make a new pot:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?323841-DIY-100-pound-pot-master-caster&highlight=100+pound

As with my last project (air-oil hydraulic single stage "Mega Press" (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?364510-Making-my-own-single-stage-press)), I am being as frugal as possible, re-using what ever I have on hand, trying to buy stuff when absolutely necessary.

So I follow that posts' ideas/advice to make a wider, ladle only, PID controlled casting pot. After looking for a "suitable" and low cost "bowl" for my purpose, I decided to buy this one - 8" Lead Melting Pot,PartNo L42008 JonesStephens ($25):
https://www.walmart.com/ip/8-Lead-Melting-Pot-PartNo-L42008-JonesStephens/632843326

With a pot in hand, I then search for a heating element I could bend around that bowl, just like shown in the post above. Luckily, I found the following one in Amazon for about $13:
https://www.amazon.com/First4Spares-Heating-Element-Zanussi-Cookers/dp/B00K18BF8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537132858&sr=8-1&keywords=3+Turn+Heating+Element+For+Zanussi+Fan+Ov en+%2F+Cookers+%282500W%29

I also bought the ceramic insulation on Amazon ($25):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015GD0QCW/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


So I am not done, but I will be posting pictures as I make progress :-)

Will

[wquiles]

Here is the heating element:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0001.jpg


The cast bowl:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0002.jpg


The insulation:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0004.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0005.jpg


The heating element's ID was close, but not wide enough to fit the bowl:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0003.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0008.jpg

[wquiles]

But once I broke the piece tying the ends up, it can be expanded to fit once I remove the 3x clamps the keep the rings equally spaced out:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0010.jpg


In fact, I repositioned the clamps to keep the coils in contact with the bowl:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0011.jpg


For a platform, and this is part of why this is an "ugly" looking project, I wanted a way to isolate the heat from the 2500W element, and I found that a front brake rotor worked perfectly to keep the bowl suspended:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0012.jpg


I removed the hanging wire for the bowl, and cut the ears as well:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0015.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0016.jpg



Then to provide space between the rotor and the bowl (which I will fill with the ceramic insulation), I cut some scrap steel to make 5x posts for the bottom of the bowl:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0017.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0018.jpg

[wquiles]

The posts worked great:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0020.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0021.jpg


So I welded them to the rotor - not a pretty weld, but plenty strong:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0022.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0023.jpg



Then to weld the bowl, which is cast iron (tricky, I know). So I took my time, and did quick welds, trying not to over heat the bowl so it would not crack. In between each of the 5 welds, waited for the pot to cool off:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0026.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0027.jpg


I am happy to report that I got great welds, and no cracked bowl:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0028.jpg

[wquiles]

Here you can see the Lee pot, modified to ladle only, with my PID controller. I will be re-using the PID enclosure for this new wide bowl:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0030.jpg


Close up of the internals:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0031.jpg



The PID housing is bolted to the rotor using 5 metal screws:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0034.jpg


Leaving enough space to add ceramic insulation later:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0035.jpg


Here I finished wiring it for 220V. Luckily, the switch I used for 120V already was a 2-pole switch opening the black and white return, so I was able to use it again to open both "hots" from the 220V:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0039.jpg



After I checked everything, and ran ohms check everywhere, I had my wife at the 220v wall breaker switch (just in case), and I proceeded to apply 220v power for the first time:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0040.jpg

[wquiles]

Everything ran great. Of course got a little bit of smoke as the element heated off for the first time. Boy was it hot!. I am used to the 120V Lee pot, which of course is totally enclosed, but this 2500W element totally exposed was radiating lots of heat, and fast!:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0041.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0042.jpg


Next weekend I hope to start work using scrap steel to build an outer "wall" and top, to fill with ceramic insulation:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0029.jpg


Will

[Fishman]

Pretty neat build. I do have a concern about the heating element location. The pot does conduct heat well, but it seems like when the alloy got low it would get more difficult to effect heat transfer from the element to the pot and to the alloy. Might or not be better to run it lower on the pot? I also have the same concern with the base. It’s super heavy and stable, all good things, but a heck of a heat sink. I guess if performance isn’t what you hope it is easy enough to take a step back and modify it down the road.

Edit - I have never built a pot so I may not know what I am talking about :)

[rking22]

Cool project! I just got a Lee 20 bottom pour, not real thrilled. I have been ladle pouring for over 30 years, old dog trying to learn new tricks.I think Im going to follow your lead and build me an insulated electric melter using my old ladle bowl and (maybe) a stove eye element. I can use my pid for either pot, best of both. Any thoughts on bottom element vs wrap arround?

[wquiles]

Pretty neat build. I do have a concern about the heating element location. The pot does conduct heat well, but it seems like when the alloy got low it would get more difficult to effect heat transfer from the element to the pot and to the alloy. Might or not be better to run it lower on the pot? I also have the same concern with the base. It’s super heavy and stable, all good things, but a heck of a heat sink. I guess if performance isn’t what you hope it is easy enough to take a step back and modify it down the road.

Edit - I have never built a pot so I may not know what I am talking about :)
All excellent points. I like your idea of lowering the heating element a little more. The rotor is a heatsink, yes, but I am planning on packing that insulation around the coil and on the bottom of the bowl to try to contain as much of the heat from reaching the rotor. That is also why the bowl is "suspended" and only touching the rotor at those 5x small areas in the bottom. Once covered with insulation, and with the metal cover I plan to work on this (and next) weekend, I "think" it will get hot enough, as my Lee only had 500 watts and I will have about 2500 watts.



Cool project! I just got a Lee 20 bottom pour, not real thrilled. I have been ladle pouring for over 30 years, old dog trying to learn new tricks.I think Im going to follow your lead and build me an insulated electric melter using my old ladle bowl and (maybe) a stove eye element. I can use my pid for either pot, best of both. Any thoughts on bottom element vs wrap arround?
From what I learned by the link I posted from the other project, the wrap around is more efficient at getting better heat transfer to the metal container/bowl, but this is my first such project, so I am definitely still experimenting :)


Will

[Fishman]

You will have plenty of power no doubt! Lowering the element may also make the hearing characteristics of the pot more uniform which helps your pid operate more precisely. Probably not a big deal though. Nice build for sure.

[CGT80]

That is a great pot!

Often times, you don't need something fancy, but just built to serve a purpose and to do it efficiently.

I built the pot and casting machine in that link and actually considered a stove top element. From what I recall, they were lower wattage and I was also building a bottom pour and did not want the element in the way.

For a bottom pour, lead column height is good, as it give pressure to the lead stream. I run my lee pot full, as it sucks below half full and the 100 pound pot is at least 1/3rd full to maybe 2/3rds to have good pressure. The element on the side works OK in this case, but for a shallow pot that is laddle only, I would try to keep it lower or under the pot.

I'm glad to see someone else get inspiration from my project.

The insulation makes a huge difference in the user comfort and the pot seemed to heat up much faster with insulation and outer walls.

[wquiles]

Well, I have been busy building this, and unfortunately fixing this pot. Today I suffer my "second" setback. Lets get you up to date on my failures so far :(

I did lower the element a little. In the end (I will explain later), it really makes no difference as the 2500watt element is just massive. But at the time, it seemed like a good idea:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0043.jpg


I then built the outer steel cover:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0045.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0046.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0048.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0050.jpg

[wquiles]

Then built the cover:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0051.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0052.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0053.jpg



Then cut a hole in the middle, so that I can use a marker to trace the internal edge with the bowl:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0054.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0055.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0056.jpg



Welding is strong, but not pretty - I should have lower the current/heat for the thin material (see lower right corner!):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0058.jpg



I then started with the ceramic insulation:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0060.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0061.jpg


After checking electrical connections, I gave it a try:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0062.jpg

[wquiles]

It was getting hot, but never hot enough:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0064.jpg


Right now I have insulation material between the cover and the heating element, so looking at my original inspiration (100 pound pot), I though I needed a later of metal to reflect the heat from the element, and then have insulation between the two metal surfaces:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0065.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0066.jpg


It got hotter, but again, not even close, which didn't make sense:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0067.jpg


So I decided to see why it wasn't hotter like the first time I powered. Upon a deep dive I found the first failure - one of the ends got so hot that it shorted!:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0081.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0082.jpg



OK, so I need to do a better job separating the coils from each other, which looking back makes sense!. I had another 240v element, so I decided to try it once more:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0085.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0086.jpg



Of course, I had to "shape" it for the bowl, so I started with this welding wire spool:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0087.jpg



I then used a brake line bender to make it as smooth as possible:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0088.jpg

[wquiles]

Here on top I have the "old" one, and the new one on the bottom:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0089.jpg



So again, I tried to put them closer to the bottom as I though I needed to do, and this time I keep them separate from each other:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0090.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0091.jpg



Like before, I added insulation everywhere:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0093.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0094.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0095.jpg

[wquiles]

But then I was checking connections, I was not getting full power. Only one of the two hots from the 220v was "hot". Upon checking I found that when the old element shorted, it damaged the two-pole ON/OFF switch:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0097.jpg



So after a trip to Fry's, I had a replacement switch, and I was ready to try again. Did it work? Yes. For a little while at least. In fact, it got hot like I expected, and I started melting lead :)
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0098.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0099.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0100.jpg



The insulation worked great and working in close proximity was pleasant. That is, until the temperature got just shy north of 800F. I heard a loud "pop". Oh ****. I turned everything off, when out to eat, and then I got back (being it was cool enough), I did another deep dive. I found the source of the pop:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0102.jpg

[wquiles]

So basically, although I had learned well not to have the coils in close proximity to each other, having the coils really close to the bottom meant that there is little air flow/room for the lowest coil, and that coil over heated and went "pop". This was failure #2:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0104.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0105.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0106.jpg


So. Since the cast iron transfers heat so freaking well, and the 2500watt element is a little of an overkill, I need to:
- space the coils more from each other
- space the coils from the edges


So I got another $20 coil on its way to me to try for a 3rd time. Wish me luck ;)

Will

[smoked turkey]

What an interesting project. I find your work fascinating. It is so refreshing to see someone building from scratch like this. You Da Man! I am sure you will conquer it before long. Thanks for posting the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[wquiles]

Thank you for your kind words. I hope that with the element arriving tonight I will be able to have a working pot soon :)

Will

[odfairfaxsub]

You are super patient good job man keep up the good work

[HATCH]

may I suggest that you do away with the heating coils and go with a heating band instead.
This is how Magma does their Master Pot (pot for Master Caster)

[wquiles]

That is a great idea, but they are a little pricey. I did a quick search and depending on size and width they could be in the $80-$200 for just one:
https://www.grainger.com/category/band-heaters/electric-process-heaters-and-accessories/heaters/hvac-and-refrigeration/ecatalog/N-raq


I received the $20 replacement heating coil, and this one is visible thicker than the prior two ones. If that fails (again!), I will take a serious look at the heating bands :)

Will

[squidtamer]

I am enjoying following this thread. Hoping for an excellent outcome as I had a similar project in mind when I started casting recently.

[wquiles]

Well, my 3rd coil failed on me :(

This one was the thicker one, so I had a little bit more high hopes:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0107.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0108.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0109.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0111.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0112.jpg


But it also worked briefly before it becoming an open circuit :(


In the short term, since I wanted to make some boolits, I moved the pot to my propane setup:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0114.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/LadleOnlyPot/IMAG0115.jpg



A friend of mine told me that instead of a normal oven heating element, I can perhaps use the oven's self-cleaning heating element, which by design is meant to heat up much higher. Either that or the more expensive heating band is my next step.

Will

[airone46]

Excuse me all! Maybe I'm saying a nonsense!
But why not put the heating element IN and not outside the furnace?
In this way, I BELIEVE that the melted lead once the temperature set with a PID has been reached, can prevent the heating element from reaching too high temperatures and burning! In addition, the heating element of 2500 WATT seems to me enormous! You could also use one or two "cartridge" heating elements like these:
https://it.rs-online.com/web/p/riscaldatori-a-cartuccia/8606895/
https://it.rs-online.com/web/c/automazione-e-controllo-di-processo/controllo-della-temperatura-e-riscaldamento/riscaldatori-a-cartuccia/?rpp=100

Then there are cartridge heaters with thermocouple, to be used in a PID: this prevents the heating element from reaching too high temperatures.
For a better transmission of heat you could proceed in this motion:
1) - pour melted lead with a propane stove inside the container: you save a lot of time !.

2) - turn on the electrical resistance, whose temperature is set at a level higher than that for lead: in this case the resistance will never reach temperatures so high as to burn

3) - The thermocouple inserted inside the furnace (about 350 ° C) and connected to another PID will avoid too high temperatures of the alloy.

P.S. If you proceed pouring the already molten lead inside the furnace it seems useless to use a resistance with thermocouple connected to another PID, because the thermocouple of the furnace will interrupt the ignition of the resistance at a temperature much lower than that which could damage the resistance itself !
It is advisable to introduce ingots as the molten alloy is consumed, so that the electrical resistance is always covered by molten alloy.

http://i63.tinypic.com/iw7rzp.png

[Jackpine]

I do not have need nor interest in duplicating your project, but have certainly learned a few things that will benefit me in the future.

I think with the patience you have displayed, we should change your handle to Job!!

Thanks for sharing and good luck with this ongoing project.

[lightman]

Its been interesting reading about your project. I would love to have an electric bottom pour pot that would hold 300 or 400 pound of lead. I've looked at ceramic kilns thinking thoughts that only a caster would have!

[airone46]

http://i66.tinypic.com/219tfud.jpg
One of my furnaces

http://i68.tinypic.com/f3yzyt.jpg
my furnace with 1 resistence


http://i67.tinypic.com/118n5w8.jpg
multiple lead delivery system: up to 6 cavities




http://i67.tinypic.com/118n5w8.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i63.tinypic.com/2q8reky.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/vwx2dd.jpg
the nozzles fit perfectly to the sprue holes of various brands (Lee - photo - / Lyman / RCBS)

http://i66.tinypic.com/e8wsoy.jpg
a furnace with two resistence


I disconnected the connections because I have to mount a PID to adjust the temperature (before I used a Lyman thermometer)

[GregLaROCHE]

This is an interesting thread. I’m interested in how the internal heating coils works out.

For the external coils version, depending on price, maybe a coil for an commercial/industrial oven might hold up better.

[airone46]

Those that I used, and that are seen in photos, are the electric resistances of Lee: then they were the only ones I had found at an economic price.
Also I bought from an importer through a friend who had the gun shop (now no longer has the sale of weapons!), And therefore the price was lower!
Now you can buy a lot more on the internet, and then there are cartridge heaters!
With the resistance mounted inside, the heat loss is much lower, especially if you leave the resistance always covered with lead (I never empty the furnace, but I always leave the lead so that the resistance is always covered!).

I only have to put a thermal insulator on the outside, but with the economic crisis that exists in Italy and in my city, all the small shops that sell special items have disappeared! You can buy on the internet but you have to buy at least a certain amount, which is always excessive for small jobs.

I had thought of making a very simple automatic production, ..... but now I'm old and I do not want to do anything!
It was necessary to drill the mold at the top, so as to fill it not from the side of the base but from the side of the ogive: the remaining piece was useful for powder coating, but then ... it was necessary to cut it WITHOUT LOSING VERY TIME!
Perhaps in this way, with multi-cavity molds, it is faster!

[GregLaROCHE]

What exactly do you mean by a thermal insulator? What kind of material are you looking for?

[airone46]

I want to isolate the outer sides of the furnace to avoid thermal dispersions and accidental burns.
Once there was an asbestos mat, now it's forbidden!
I could use glass wool!

[GregLaROCHE]

I want to isolate the outer sides of the furnace to avoid thermal dispersions and accidental burns.
Once there was an asbestos mat, now it's forbidden!
I could use glass wool!

You need to use rock wool. It can withstand temps to 1000° C. Can you find it where you are?

https://www.rockwool.co.uk/learning/installation-guides/

[Hossfly]

This I am following with great interest, I’ve been in the industrial boiler business for last 40 years. The rock wool will work to insulate outside of pot, don’t know how long tho. A better choice would be the white ceramic Kao-wool that’s used with higher temperature rating, if you can get it. The inside the pot design will increases the eff. And if like you say to always keep lead in the pot makes sense, it will not run too hot as to have problems. The only thing I could see wrong with it is {if] a single element went out, with a full pot of cold alloy, that would be a problem. If you have 2 elements, maybe both wont go out at the same time, you could use one to heat pot and drain to repair other one. The problem with wrapping new elements around a cylinder is, you cant get it wrapped evenly so as not to have gaps that don’t touch said cylinder and you end up with hot spots therefore burn outs. The commercial heating pots all have very good tight contact with whatever they are heating. If I were to try to make a large capacity container, would possibly consider using the internal design and always keep alloy covering the 2 purchased elements.

[airone46]

I know that rock wool is not the most suitable material, and that it would take ceramic wool! for this I made the "lazy" and I did not put anything, up to this moment!
If an element fails, it breaks down while the lead is melted! It would hardly fail to furnace switched off! In any case there is the other element that would melt the cold lead! It would only take a few minutes more! Generally I operate both resistances until I bring the alloy to the optimal termpertura, then I turn on one, alternating them!
So far I have never had problems! If I had to be so unlucky to burn both resistances with cold lead (DIFFICULT!) I always have an GPL torch to melt the alloy!
In fact, it is not worthwhile to empty the furnace every time you finish working, and then when you want to work again, turn the ingots into another pot and then pour everything into the electric furnace!

[GregLaROCHE]

I think the rock wool will work for you. It nothing like fiber glass wool that is most often used for insulation. It has a much higher temp rating. Since you said it was hard to get materials where you are, rock wool can be found in most building supply stores.

[GregLaROCHE]

Hossfly.
You seem to be the most knowledge about this. I know the ceramic Kao wool would be the best for heat resistance and insulation, but it seems he is having a problem sourcing it. Don’t you agree rock wool could work for him and be a lot easer to find. I was thinking of the ridged type. Best would be to cover it. At a minimum several layers of aluminum foil could work.