Where do people get the idea that micro groove boolits don't need sizing?

[maglvr]

Greetings brothers and sisters of the silver stream :-)
This is just a pet peeve of mine, I have held in way too many years. Now seems like a good time to share it, before I explode LOL.
Just one of those little things that get under your skin like when someone says "nucular" instead of nuclear. :-)
If I have seen it once, I have seen (and heard) it a few hundred times, that LEE micro groove bullets do not need sizing! As if LEE had claimed that those thin little bands are some gift from God that will always be just the right size, or miraculously conform to fit our every reloading need, just because they are so thin. No such claim has been made that I have ever seen, especially not on the LEE site. What they do say is in fact quite different, they state... "MOST BULLETS FROM LEE MOLDS CAN BE USED, AS CAST WITHOUT SIZING" (I'm not yelling here, they had it all in caps, so I do too :-)
They in no way specify just the micro groove bullets. If someone told us "standard lube groove bullets from LEE molds don't need to be sized", we would likely give them the old stink eye! I have never heard that stated, nor seen it in print,
but just mention micro grooves and get ready to hear "YEA, those don't need to be sized!" LEE does say the micro bands create less friction and higher velocities, given the same pressure.
Thank you for your time, and please forgive me for going "nucUlar" on the subject :-)
Now perhaps I can get a decent night's sleep with that off my chest! LOL!
Cheers! :-)
MagLvr
226999

[sledgehammer001]

LOL. I size ALL my cast boolits. Period! If I size them, I know they're consistent and round. From my bitty little .225 Bator, to my 220 grain .310" for my '06. Maybe I'm just OCD, but it works for me!

[maglvr]

You are not alone, Sir.
I too size all mine, I don't think i've ever casted a boolit that I didn't size before I loaded it into a case.

[mattw]

That line always made me giggle. So, you have a .358 bore and stuff a .360 bullet down it... definitely no gas is gonna get by it... definitely pressure is gonna be up and definitely velocity and accuracy are affected. I cast 94/3/3 and it really needs a proper fit to shoot anywhere near well. I can't imagine droppin boolits, sloshing them around in magic no-leading goo and shooting them without knowing if they really fit. But, I reload for accuracy (number 1), enjoyment (definite number 2) and economy. Proper sizing and lubrication strongly affect #1 and #2.

[bedbugbilly]

I've got no dog in this fight . . . er . . . "vent". :-)

I think the only Lee molds I have that are "micro groove" - i.e. TL are in pistol calibers - and as hard as is to say it, one of them is my best shooting design out of my 38s. I don't size them as I really don't see the need to - they shoot just fine for me. I haven't tried any of their TL rifle designs as I have not had much luck with their rifle molds in rifle design - problems with out of round, undersize, etc. so I now waltz on by Lee and get NOE or similar.

Yea . . to claim they don't have to be sized? It's all marketing hype. The particular rifle will determine if they have to be sized or not . . . if it won't chamber, of course it has to ve sized.

Lee makes some good items at reasonable prices - I use a lot of different Lee dies but I'm not married to the. I bought a Lee mold in a pistol boolit one time to try and then if it worked, I was going to get the design in a better mold. The Lee mold I was sent must have been made by a blindfolded machinist - when closed, cavities were offset from each other, alignment pins not installed the way the right depth, should have been a reject. Lee's CS was less than stelar on that one - claimed I wasn't casting correctly - hmm . . been casting 55 years.

Anyway . . . Lee isn't the only one that has outlandish claims . . . so why give it a second thought? It's not worth the time and effort - have another cup of coffee and figure it's a lot like the "net" . . . where everything has to be true 'cause I saw it on the Internet! LOL

So, just out of curiousity . . are you using one of their "micro groove" rifle molds? If so, and you size . . how are they shooting for you?

Have a good one!

[LenH]

I am not a fan of the micro groove bullets by any means, it is a personal thing and if you like those I am not going to look down my nose at you.

I have been in this hobby for nearly 40 years and have sized everything that I cast. I have used LLA and am not a real fan of that either, probably because I was using
it wrong but again that is just me. I have a old RCBS lube sizer and a Magma Star. I have different lubes in both and use each according to my needs.

Like I tell most new guys FIT IS KING all else is secondary.

[GhostHawk]

I have loaded at least as many cast boolits without sizing as I have sized.

Way I see it, if it fits it should be good enough.

Now I can see that for those looking for the upper edge in accuracy that sizing could be an advantage.

I have one boolit, the Lee .314 90 gr tumble lubed truncated cone that I have shot as cast, sized at .312 (Reamed out .311 sizing die) .311 and .309.

It has worked well in all situations.

I have had batches of bullets that roughly 2/3rds to 3/4's were the correct size, so I loaded them as cast.
The ones that were a touch oversize got sized down a smidge then loaded.

Way I see it this is one of those "Your gun, your bullets, your standards, your time, you decide" issues.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

[Soundguy]

I've got no dog in this fight . . . er . . . "vent". :-)

I think the only Lee molds I have that are "micro groove" - i.e. TL are in pistol calibers - and as hard as is to say it, one of them is my best shooting design out of my 38s. I don't size them as I really don't see the need to - they shoot just fine for me. I haven't tried any of their TL rifle designs as I have not had much luck with their rifle molds in rifle design - problems with out of round, undersize, etc. so I now waltz on by Lee and get NOE or similar.

Yea . . to claim they don't have to be sized? It's all marketing hype. The particular rifle will determine if they have to be sized or not . . . if it won't chamber, of course it has to ve sized.

Lee makes some good items at reasonable prices - I use a lot of different Lee dies but I'm not married to the. I bought a Lee mold in a pistol boolit one time to try and then if it worked, I was going to get the design in a better mold. The Lee mold I was sent must have been made by a blindfolded machinist - when closed, cavities were offset from each other, alignment pins not installed the way the right depth, should have been a reject. Lee's CS was less than stelar on that one - claimed I wasn't casting correctly - hmm . . been casting 55 years.

Anyway . . . Lee isn't the only one that has outlandish claims . . . so why give it a second thought? It's not worth the time and effort - have another cup of coffee and figure it's a lot like the "net" . . . where everything has to be true 'cause I saw it on the Internet! LOL

So, just out of curiousity . . are you using one of their "micro groove" rifle molds? If so, and you size . . how are they shooting for you?

Have a good one!

I think it really depends on the alloy you use and the mold itself. I size ALMOST all of my cast, but i *DO* have a .358 LRN mold for pistol boolits that drops just perfect as cast with lyman #2 or even a hair softer as long as it is at least 10-12 bhn. ... and it is.. wait for it.. micro-groove. For those.. I tumble lube them and load.

[Loudy13]

Size everything is my motto ....but I'm kinda picky I guess when it comes to consistency, reliability, accuracy !

[Dusty Bannister]

I have visited with a lot of cast bullet shooters that have been having problems with leading in handguns (mostly 9MM) and frequently they have been shooting the Lee TL with the Lee Liquid Alox. They usually will say "But Lee says they do not need to be sized." If you are shooting a bullet that drops at .357" and the groove is .356" then you only have just the slight contact of the top of the Micro Groove ring making contact with the barrel. If the bullet is larger, then the contact with the barrel is greater, and the resistance to leaking gas is greater. Sizing is not mandatory, but a casual inspection of a lubed bullet will make it clearly obvious if you have an under size issue to correct.

I have lost count of the number of bullet molds that I have and use, but can say that I do not have any TL styles in my possession. I do have some LLA, but much prefer the soft wax lubes. I do not shoot indoors so any smoke is just not a consideration. As previously stated, it is a matter of what is important to the shooter.

[WHITETAIL]

:coffee:I am from the Old School and size everything.

[reddog81]

Any bullet that will fit into the case and then chamber into a gun doesn't "need" to be sized. The throat or barrel will do a fine job of sizing down a bullet. Sizing down a bullet .001 to.003 doesn't take much effort. I typically size everything just for consistencies sake, but have shot a number of unsized, tumble lubed bullets with moderate success. I have a couple of WW1 era 45 ACP revolvers with large throats and I can use bullets as cast with a coat of powder coat and those work better than anything else.

[Kraschenbirn]

Only boolits that I don't size are those for my BPCRs which are cast from 25/1 to be shot at BP velocities. These are all pan-lubed and loaded 'as cast'...over BP or an equivalent charge of smokeless. My experience with these rounds...and I've tried both...tell me that I get measurably better accuracy from my single-shots with 'as cast' than with 'sized & lubed'.

Oh yeah, just my opinion, but...micro-groove or conventional lube-groove...tumble-lube sucks. Been there, done that, and moved on to 'size-after-powder coat' for all my handgun rounds.

Bill

[mdi]

Jes wondering, what's the point of this thread? To size or not to size, that is the question. If one knows what the diameter is of their cast bullets, they have the answer. Shooting a .44 with 431" throats, and the mold drops bullets of .431"? Don't size. If the mold drops bullets .436", then size...:veryconfu

[Soundguy]

Agreed.. I never seen the need to push a .358 slug thru a .358 sizer just to get some finger exercise and muscle memory.

Its all about size. If your mold drops the *exact* size you need... You are good.

[dondiego]

Micro Groove barrels typically need larger diameter boolets and tumble lube boolets sometimes fit that bill without sizing...........

[Bookworm]

This subject comes around occasionally. I can say this - I've been reloading for almost 30 years, casting for much less.

I have never sized a Lee tumble lube (micro groove) boolit.

I do cast and shoot them in handguns, at least 44 and 38/357. They fit and shoot fine without the extra step, I see no need to size. And that is where I got the idea they needn't be sized - by shooting them unsized.

What works for me may not work for you. You want to size them ? Have at it !

[maglvr]

Actually, I don't own a single rifle mold, I live in a place where a long shot is 50 yards, and the long guns I carry most are 357 and 45 COLT calibers, with the 357 usually getting the nod when I head out the door. 357 Is the caliber I would choose above all others, if I could only have one.

[maglvr]

"claimed I wasn't casting correctly - hmm . . been casting 55 years."
Well no wonder you had some problems, that is to be expected, what with being a novice of only 55 years! Just stick with it, and don't give up and you will do just fine I am sure! Surely they can't expect a fellow to learn everything overnight! :kidding: :-)

[ascast]

I NEVER size any bullets unless they don't chamber; from any mold.

[maglvr]

"Jes wondering, what's the point of this thread?"
Nothing more than stating that LEE never claimed micro groove bullets don't need to be sized, as is so often claimed. And to fuel a little friendly discussion, that's all :-)

[mdi]

Maglvr, I never researched the topic much, but if Lee didn't say is it true? A lot of "info" on the web gets started with one comment. Possibly in a reloading/casting forum years ago someone may have said "Lee micro-groove bullets don't need to be sized", because his didn't need sizing, and it took off from there. When I started casting I wasn't real sure of myself so I measured everything, just to be sure/safe and if the bullets were "too big" I'd have to size them as I learned here bullets should be the same size as the cylinder throats (I had an old Lee Lube Kit with a cookie cutter, small pan of lube and a hammer through sizing die)...

[MT Gianni]

Richard Lee comes close to stating it, but leaves it very much implied in Modern Reloading Edition 1 pages 125 and 126. He leaves us with his opinion that if a bullet needs sizing it is poorly manufactured and designed implying that his are not.

[Bazoo]

I have run some lee 358 140 swc without sizing. I had a few that were too fat and wouldnt chamber in my wifes 686, my buddies blackhawk didnt have a problem with them though. It was the traditional lube design but I tumble lubed them. I didnt have any problems, except that I'd got a few that were just a touch large to chamber. I prefer to size them though, as mould temperature affects the size of the bullet, and sometimes .001 is all it takes to make them not chamber.

[trixter]

:coffee:I am from the Old School and size everything.

That would be me too, I don't want any problems.

[RED BEAR]

i size everything needed or not just how i learned.

[flint45]

Only have two micro groove molds 158 gr. .358 and .45 200 hundred gr. swc I don't size them just lube and shoot both shoot so good the way they are. I would not want to even take the time to size them as it is unnecessary.

[Pardini]

Greetings brothers and sisters of the silver stream :-)
This is just a pet peeve of mine, I have held in way too many years. Now seems like a good time to share it, before I explode LOL.
Just one of those little things that get under your skin like when someone says "nucular" instead of nuclear. :-)
If I have seen it once, I have seen (and heard) it a few hundred times, that LEE micro groove bullets do not need sizing! As if LEE had claimed that those thin little bands are some gift from God that will always be just the right size, or miraculously conform to fit our every reloading need, just because they are so thin. No such claim has been made that I have ever seen, especially not on the LEE site. What they do say is in fact quite different, they state... "MOST BULLETS FROM LEE MOLDS CAN BE USED, AS CAST WITHOUT SIZING" (I'm not yelling here, they had it all in caps, so I do too :-)
They in no way specify just the micro groove bullets. If someone told us "standard lube groove bullets from LEE molds don't need to be sized", we would likely give them the old stink eye! I have never heard that stated, nor seen it in print,
but just mention micro grooves and get ready to hear "YEA, those don't need to be sized!" LEE does say the micro bands create less friction and higher velocities, given the same pressure.
Thank you for your time, and please forgive me for going "nucUlar" on the subject :-)
Now perhaps I can get a decent night's sleep with that off my chest! LOL!
Cheers! :-)
MagLvr
226999


Years ago, when I was primarily a Bullseye shooter, I gave my buddy more than little grief about him loading unsized, Lee tumble lubes boolits. I thought I was a much more sophisticated caster. He shut me up one night at the indoor range. He finally convince me to just try some of his 32 S&W reloads with unsized Lee tumble lubed headquarters in my Hammerli 280.

I eventually gave in after much lighthearted complaining they would blow up my etc, etc. Well, after shooting 5 shots deadcenter into the 10 ring, in a hole no bigger than a 3 shot group, I forever shut up about it.

[Hueyville]

Had to pull two of my lubrisizers off to mount another Square Deal B till get entire reloading room rearranged so can fit another progressive press bench in the room. My single stage press bench has lost two single stage presses to fit a 550 with all the bells. Had to stick a turret press on corner of my case prep bench and move a lead pot off my casting bench to mount a shotshell press. I dislike swapping machines over to another anything so tend to add machines. Why my seven well spaced lubrisizers are now two well spaced, three crowded and a progressive plopped down in the middle. Life just sucks.

http://i64.tinypic.com/bhxgso.jpg

I size my bullets though I only have one Lee mold that I still use but have a pile left from when I was a kid in the 1970's. Was tough on a 13 to 15 year old kid casting out of a cast iron pot on his mom's stove with a dipper to justify big Ideal/Lyman or RCBS mold blocks. By age 16 had better jobs, more money, better range as was not allowed to drive anywhere except on dirt roads with short hops on pavement. That got me to Bargain Barn (first mega outdoor store I ever saw) in Jasper GA, Dawsonville Hardware (great gun counter at time) and a couple mom & pop hardware/dry goods/gun shops in Ellijay. Had to sneak to Atlanta at age 13 in my trusty Beetle to buy first press and full reasonably complete reloading kit as the guy who mentored me the previous 18 months lived on a state highway, knew my parents rule of no driving on pavement and worked in law enforcement but having to get mom to take me to the press plus he had no casting equipment was making a young kid crazy.

If I cast it I size it. Have to lube it and most rifle boolits and big magnum handgun boolits get gas checks. Since need to lube and often seat checks may as well size while doing it. I even run my top quality match bullets through a pointing die and taken to running a few odd bags of pulls through swaging dies because some were not 100% or even 99% round and like round bullets that weigh the same. Maybe I read too much Elmer Keith, Ross Syfried and company articles as a kid but they all were pushing limits thus seemed to do all the steps plus the odd ones. Every round gets wiped down and dropped in 7 hole EGW chamber checkers as wife and I box them up and all precision ammo has so many steps from weighing every projectile, measuring internal volume of every case, setting up rifles favorite distance of ogive to lands to measuring bullet run out on every finished round. Wife does all the mundane light chores such as keeping piles of primer tubes loaded, weighing projectiles and pointing match bullets so gives me more time to be anal about sizing my boolits. And the one Lee mold we still run... is a 160 grain six cavity use to load 7.62×39 "commie bullets" as my wife calls them as she loves shooting her massaged 20 round box mag preban SKS's more than her AR 15's, Mini 14's or AUG. Only rifles she shoots almost as much are a pair of massaged 30 Carbines that I built for her. At least half dozen wives of friends are running my modified 30 Carbines.

Forgot there is a lubrisizer stuck on corner of casting bench. Changing sizing die in a machine with warm or cold lube in it drives me nuts so top punch and tweaking adjustment is all I like doing as swapping parts is time not making boolits or dropping ammo.

http://i65.tinypic.com/293kc61.jpg

[trapper9260]

For me I do not have a TL mold. I size and lube all my boolits. I use a Lyman lube sizer and works for me all the years I been at this and also I know what size of the boolit I use. Because on some of the boolits I use is used for other rounds with the same cast boolit and need to be different size.

[watkibe]

I tumble lube, size, tumble lube again, and load.
Casting just isn't as much fun any more...