cast boolits at 2700 fps in a 37 whelen?

[Tripplebeards]

I was looking in my Lyman 50 th book and it had a listing of 2700 fps shooting a cast 200 gr boolit in a 35 whelen. Is this a typo?

I haven't bought any molds yet but am on the list for a 200 gr hp mold and I don't have my optic mounted yet on my new carbine and am waiting for a shorter bolt getting mailed to me to mount my laminate stock. So I have some time to research.

I do have a 100 new rem brass I bought from another member and a set of RCBS dies.

I will be PC and GC. My hardest alloy in Inventory in coww which is 14.3 air cooled.

Any suggestions?

[Outpost75]

I think the 2700 is a typo. If your .35 Whelen has a 16" twist of rifling, which many do these days, you can realistically expect about 2200 fps with good accuracy using either the Accurate or NOE clone of the RCBS 35-200FN, cast in your 14 BHN alloy, at .359-.360" diameter using 40 grains of 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget, with a 1 grain Dacron fill tucked loosely into the case neck.

I have no experience with powder coating, but use NRA formula Alox-beeswax lube, because it works.

I would recomend that you make a pound cast of your chamber and throat and order a custom mold to fit.

The RCBS molds cast small, unless you use linotype. For paper lunching only, not for hunting.

Most of the time I use Accurate 35-245D plainbase cast 1:30 tin lead with 30 grains of 4064, ballistics like the .38-55 Winchester. Tom at Accurate could easily cut one of these adding a .09" GC heel which would bump the weight up to about 270 grains, which is as heavy as will stabilize in a 16" twist and would give about 2000 fps with the same 40 grains of 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget and be a very effective big game load for elk, moose or bear at woods ranges to 150 yards.

You don't need or want an HP bullet. You want a flat nosed solid with meplat larger than 1/2 of bullet diameter and alloy not exceeding 14 BHN, wheelweights +2% tin is ideal, having a remaining velocity over 1400 fps downrange where the deer is.

[mehavey]

It's not a typo (I just ran the numbers Lyman #358315/equivalent/3031/58.5gr/3.045" in QuickLoad) ==> 2,840fps
It is, however, one heckuva high-pressure (54ksi) load for any cast bullet/alloy that I know anything about

[Larry Gibson]

Tripplebeards

Yes Lyman #4 does list 2840 fps with the 358315 with 58.5 gr 3031. Note the 16" twist barrel that is also 24" long. You don't mention the barrel length or twist of your "carbine"? That velocity is certainly possible in the 35 Whelen. However, accuracy with that bullet would be notoriously poor. It just does not have the design attributes for HV cast bullet accuracy. You don't mention what 200 gr cast bullet you are contemplating so I can't comment on it. The use of a slower burning powder would also be advisable.

I've not a lot of experience with PC'd bullets but my experience indicates a lube will still be needed to eliminate fouling and improve accuracy at such HV. If you are going to push into the HV realm you may also want to look at a harder alloy such as #2 alloy WQ/HT'd to a BHN of 22 - 26. If hunting then your alloy at lower velocity than 2700 - 2840 fps should prove excellent given appropriate accuracy.

BTW; I push 47 - 55,000 psi with the 30 XCB cast of #2 alloy out of my 14 and 16" twist barrels. That is actual measured pressure, not guestimated. The psi is not the problem with accuracy loss at HV (if an appropriate powder is used) in normal length barrels, it is the twist rate design parameters of the cast bullet.

[Tripplebeards]

Tripplebeards

Yes Lyman #4 does list 2840 fps with the 358315 with 58.5 gr 3031. Note the 16" twist barrel that is also 24" long. You don't mention the barrel length or twist of your "carbine"? That velocity is certainly possible in the 35 Whelen. However, accuracy with that bullet would be notoriously poor. It just does not have the design attributes for HV cast bullet accuracy. You don't mention what 200 gr cast bullet you are contemplating so I can't comment on it. The use of a slower burning powder would also be advisable.

I've not a lot of experience with PC'd bullets but my experience indicates a lube will still be needed to eliminate fouling and improve accuracy at such HV. If you are going to push into the HV realm you may also want to look at a harder alloy such as #2 alloy WQ/HT'd to a BHN of 22 - 26. If hunting then your alloy at lower velocity than 2700 - 2840 fps should prove excellent given appropriate accuracy.

BTW; I push 47 - 55,000 psi with the 30 XCB cast of #2 alloy out of my 14 and 16" twist barrels. That is actual measured pressure, not guestimated. The psi is not the problem with accuracy loss at HV (if an appropriate powder is used) in normal length barrels, it is the twist rate design parameters of the cast bullet.

The velocity will never get there in my rifle...its a 2018' 18.5" carbine Remington 7600. I would assume it's a 1 in 16 twist. So I would guess at max it would be close to 2700 fps with the max load if it would shoot accurate. The mold I have my name in for is the RCBS clone with hp pins on our open order post.

For the first time in almost 20 years I'm going to go out and buy some factory loaded rifle ammo and try the hornady super hi performance. I figured I don't plan on using this thing for a target rifle in my life (if it were a 24"-26" bolt gun, yes)and it it shoots MOA or better with the load I'll leave it good for jacketed ammo. If not I'll buy some 2808 powder and go to town with jacketed and also try some cast regardless.

I've always wanted a 35 whelen 7600 and bought it for a backup if my 7600 06' that I've had new since 1984' ever fails on opening day. My average shot is 10 yards to 100 yards max. I sit 80 yards from my property line on one side and want to use a load that will knock them off their feet. The new neighbor decided to put a stand 30 yards from the line on the other side last year so I want to do everything possible to drop them where they stand. I've been spoiled for years until the neighbors changed ownership. Now I have someone in my line of sight for the first time in 35 years. Talking didn't help. I just have to deal with the stupidity. If I had more land I'd sit somewhere else.

[waksupi]

FYI, of you shoot an animal at that velocity, you are going to destroy a lot of meat, and it won't kill as effective as a slower bullet.

[Hickory]

FYI, of you shoot an animal at that velocity, you are going to destroy a lot of meat, and it won't kill as effective as a slower bullet.

This is my thinking.
1800-1850 fps seems like the ideal velocity, and has a BHN of 14-16 will serve you well.

[mehavey]

1800-1850 fps . . .Agree.
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6644641&postcount=5

Also: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6645327&postcount=8

I can get things up to 2,200-ish . . . but can't even imagine reaching 2,850 pressures

[Hickory]

Part of the reason we have jacketed bullets is because lead bullets performed poorly at velocities over 2000 fps.
Lead bullets will splatter like a water balloon over 2100 fps. when hitting flesh with alloy under 16 BHN and will shatter if its too hard.
Jacketed bullets can be driven at higher velocities and the copper jacket aides in controlled expansion when hitting flesh.

[Tripplebeards]

This is my thinking.
1800-1850 fps seems like the ideal velocity, and has a BHN of 14-16 will serve you well.

If this is true it takes all the fun out of it. I might as well forget about cast in my whelen and stick to j words and shoot my 77/44 with a full velocity load or my 450 bushmaster ruger American. I have goods accurate cast boolit loaded at the same 1800 fps plus velocity. All three rifles shooting cast will kill exactly the same pushed at the same velocity and the trajectory isn't going to be that far off between the three rounds. So what's the advantage over one rifle vs another when they all are pushed at the same velocity? Kinda boring and defeats the purpose of of casting for multi rifles...accept for saving money on jacketed bullets. Its like having a 30-30 and 300 rum and shooting them both at the same velocity...takes all the excitement out of it. Think I'll just stick to cast in my pistols and rifles with pistol chamberings with the exception of my 35 Remington's. I've never seen a lower velocity bullet that stays together kill quicker than I high speed expanding bullet that transfers all of its Kenetic energy inside the animal...unless it was hit in the head which is a shot I will not take. I think it's unethical to take a head an PDFs neck shot. The idiots next to my property have wounded many deer that run past me with holes high in the neck or forward in the face with the jaw blown off. The poor animals suffer until they starve to death. I don't have any respect for a hunter that tells me they take those shots and will never be allowed on my property to wound an animal.

So how is a hard cast boolit traveling at high velocity going to cause more damage than a soft jacketed bullet on game? A 180 gr jacket core loct out if my 06' makes a bullet size hole in and out at 2750 fps on every whitetail I've shot. I'm sure a 14 BH boolit is three times tuffer and won't expand as much. Makes no sense.

I'd rather have a hi velocity boolit that would literally blow an animal in half and put it down in the spot than shoot it at a lower velocity with not enough kenitic energy and loose it because it traveled off my property before it expired. I have more deer meat in my freezer than I know what to do with and give away several deer a year so I'm not worried about the meat or the Hyde. I normally wait and fill my tags with a 20" plus rack every year gun and bow. I have to say I'm pretty spoiled with big bucks I have on my property. After that I harvest a few doe and will have to test my cast boolits on them this year. We also have unlimited doe tags in my area.

[Hickory]

A friend of mine shot a doe in Pennsylvania with a 300 Winchester magnum using a 200 grain cast boolit at full velocity, the only part of the deer that was not blood shot were the hind quarters. You can give it a try, but, there won't be any satisfaction in the results.

[Tripplebeards]

A friend of mine shot a doe in Pennsylvania with a 300 Winchester magnum using a 200 grain cast boolit at full velocity, the only part of the deer that was not blood shot were the hind quarters. You can give it a try, but, there won't be any satisfaction in the results.

So it can be can successfully without leading. accuracy will be the determining factor. If it won't shoot at least MOA it's not worth my time.

High speed cast boolits can't be any different for blood shot meat than using a jacket bullet at the same velocity I would assume?

The one thing I've learned over the years is speed kills...quick or instantly, where slower moving projectiles will obviously still kill but the animal will not drop when shot and has to be tracked 99% of the time unless it's hit in the central nervous system(head or backbone). I'm sure using close to pure lead with compensate for the slower velocity and animal will still take a tremendous amount of shock with a slower extremely soft expandable boolit...and therefore bloodshot meat. I guess I wouldn't mind using a slow heavy boolit if I lived somewhere in open country shooting buffalo,pronghorn, or mule deer where I can watch them run the open plains before dropping so I know I hit them and where they dropped. Just not a fan in thick woods where I'm at and can't see in most spots after 20-40 yards. Not trying to get into a huge debate but it seems like every time someone wants to push a cast boolit a faster velocities there are 20 follow up posts saying not to do it. I would assume there is a good amount of destruction and blood shot meat...no worse or less than using a jacketed round at the same velocity. It can't be any worse than using a ballistic tip on deer size game where I've seen the insides turn to jelly. Other than bloody jel a foot in diameter smeared on each side of the ribs and an 1.5" hole in and out there was no meat ruined. I guess if I was a shoulder shooter... Instead of taking broadside archery shots with my rifle aiming right behind the shoulder and taking out the heart and lungs with only ribs hit there not going to be an issue. I stopped shooting shoulders back in 85' when I started bow hunting. It taught me to be patient and to be a better shot. Before that I wrecked a lot of meat with my 06' with shoulder shots. I would just like the option to be able to push a cast fast if needed. If I can't shoot over 1800 fps with a whelen I guess I'll use one of my 35 Rems. No one complains about using them on deer at 2000 plus fps on deer...same boolit...hmmmmm?

[waksupi]

If this is true it takes all the fun out of it. I might as well forget about cast in my whelen and stick to j words and shoot my 77/44 with a full velocity load or my 450 bushmaster ruger American. I have goods accurate cast boolit loaded at the same 1800 fps plus velocity. All three rifles shooting cast will kill exactly the same pushed at the same velocity and the trajectory isn't going to be that far off between the three rounds. So what's the advantage over one rifle vs another when they all are pushed at the same velocity? Kinda boring and defeats the purpose of of casting for multi rifles...accept for saving money on jacketed bullets. Its like having a 30-30 and 300 rum and shooting them both at the same velocity...takes all the excitement out of it. Think I'll just stick to cast in my pistols and rifles with pistol chamberings with the exception of my 35 Remington's. I've never seen a lower velocity bullet that stays together kill quicker than I high speed expanding bullet that transfers all of its Kenetic energy inside the animal...unless it was hit in the head which is a shot I will not take. I think it's unethical to take a head an PDFs neck shot. The idiots next to my property have wounded many deer that run past me with holes high in the neck or forward in the face with the jaw blown off. The poor animals suffer until they starve to death. I don't have any respect for a hunter that tells me they take those shots and will never be allowed on my property to wound an animal.

So how is a hard cast boolit traveling at high velocity going to cause more damage than a soft jacketed bullet on game? A 180 gr jacket core loct out if my 06' makes a bullet size hole in and out at 2750 fps on every whitetail I've shot. I'm sure a 14 BH boolit is three times tuffer and won't expand as much. Makes no sense.

I'd rather have a hi velocity boolit that would literally blow an animal in half and put it down in the spot than shoot it at a lower velocity with not enough kenitic energy and loose it because it traveled off my property before it expired. I have more deer meat in my freezer than I know what to do with and give away several deer a year so I'm not worried about the meat or the Hyde. I normally wait and fill my tags with a 20" plus rack every year gun and bow. I have to say I'm pretty spoiled with big bucks I have on my property. After that I harvest a few doe and will have to test my cast boolits on them this year. We also have unlimited doe tags in my area.

I found that elk generally die faster with a slow heavy bullet, than with high velocity rounds.

[Hickory]

I'm with Elmer Keith on slow heavy bullets.
If I need extra killing power, I add a hollow point to the recipe.

[sutherpride59]

I know nothing about the caliber or pushing such a bullet so fast but I will throw out there that a broad head out of a bow moving at 290fps dropped the last buck I shot at 40 yards with my compound so just how much power is really needed on a game animal with a well placed shot is something to ponder. Post results!

[Larry Gibson]

Tripplebeards

I suggest you work up a load with your alloy to what ever velocity it maintains sufficient hunting accuracy at 200 yards. I also use the same basic bullet at 2150 fps cast of COWWs +2% tin then mixed 50/50 with lead. The bullets are AC'd and also HP'd. I've had nothing but exceptional performance on deer with them. Not 35 cal but I've also shot deer and elk with cast of similar alloys using 30s, 8mms and my 375 H&H with muzzle velocities of 2100 fps to 2400 fps. Additionally I've shot a couple injured elk at 20 - 30 yards with a 457483 cast of COWWs +2% tin pushed at 2300 fps. None of the bullets were found to "splatter like a water balloon" and there was no more blood shot meat than with jacketed bullets at similar velocity.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for the info Larry. I knew you were pushing your 35 rem at 2150 fps with good results.

[Shuz]

I drive the Lyman 358009 280g boolit to 2150 fps outta my .35 Whelen with excellent accuracy. My alloy is 3:1 (wheelweights:lino)
and heat treated (after sizing) to Bhn 22. Most boolits shot at moose and elk and deer, were never recovered, just "passed on thru".
I was able to recover one on a moose, and that one did not expand, but it only lost a few grains also.
Oh, yeah, and I could "eat right up to the boolit hole" so to speak. No bloodshot meat.