Belling, seating, bumping, crimping....

[subsonic]

I've been thinking..... which is probably a bad idea.

I'm getting ready to load up some .30-30swith 311041GCs.

If I feed these through a tube mag, I need to crimp. What if I single load and don't crimp... how do I get rid of the bell at the mouth of the case so that the cartridges will chamber?

I noticed how easily the nose of these bullets can be "bumped up" with careless pressure on the lubrisizer handle. What are the odds that the seating die will bump up noses during seating if I have a lot of case neck tension?

I'm going to try to put some of these together tonight and the answer to the second question should rear it's head if it's a problem. I don't have any way to reduce case neck tension if it is a problem, so I was hoping to get an idea ahead of time. Does the Lyman M-Die help with both of these problems?

I don't want to buy a bushing neck die for a lever gun that I shoot offhand with aperture sights, but I don't want the bullet noses to hang in the rifling when ejecting live rounds either. I guess a good crimp would help eliminate the chance of pulling the bullet... hmm... just kind of thinking out loud and hoping a voice of experience will speak.

[kir_kenix]

The Lee FCD might be an option here. I'm not a huge fan of it on rifle rounds, because if you are too aggressive with it, you will size the boolit down. This will take the bell out of the case, and hopefully solve all of your problems. I think its all of $8 or $9 too, so if it doesn't work your not out a whole lot.

You can bell and seat as normal, then use the FCD to take the bell out and put a bit of hold on the boolit.

[CSH]

You might try a 32 ACP or 30 Carbine (or any other 30 caliber that is available) taper crimp die to remove the mouth flare if you don't roll crimp. This is what I've always done with cast boolit rounds in my Marlin 336. I crimp just enough to remove the flare (this can also be done with the roll crimp feature of the seating die if the brass is uniform length). Boolits sized .310" chamber freely and stay put when loaded in the magazine provided there is enough case neck tension. Of course, YMMV, so test a few rounds with your equipment before loading a big batch. While we're on the topic of crimp, I try to keep it to a minimum. I personally believe that no amount of crimp will make up for inadequate neck tension. Too much crimp deforms the boolits anyway, which probably won't help accuracy. I do use the Lyman M to flare the case mouths. I don't think it does anything for case neck tension (that's all in the sizing and condition of the brass), but it results in boolits that are seated with very little runout.

As for bumping boolit noses during the seating operation, I believe this is highly unlikely unless the boolits are soft and a very firm roll crimp is employed.

[docone31]

I use a lot of Lee Collet dies.
With the bell, I take the loaded cartridge from the shell holder, and put it on top of the shell holder. I then close the die down on the cartridge. I do not jam it down, I close it down and "feel" the die.
This seems to just compress the edge just enough to make a difference.
I stumbled onto this procedure with my .303 British cartridge. My chamber was oversize, and the brass was thin. I was getting cases that the bullet would fall into. The neck die would not tension the brass enough. I got frustrated, and not knowing really how the die worked, I put them on top of the shell holder. Nice straight necks!
Standard dies will not do this, it ends up the same as crimping and I did not want that.
I do not know if this helps or not. It worked for me.
With castings the size I need, it also worked on that case.
Too much pressure will crumple the case. I found that out also.

[Larry Gibson]

Subsonic

As you've found a softer alloy must be sized gently on the lubrasizer or bumping up of the noses or bending of the bullet can occur. This also can happen during seating depending on the neck tension. A plain base bullet can also be sized by the neck tansion. The M-Die definately helps here. It sizes the inside of the neck instead of just belling the case mouth as per the Lee. I use the .30 M-die for .308-.309 bullets but for .310-312 bullets I use the .31 M-Die.

As to removing the flare. Your 30-30 seating die has a roll crimp shoulder in it. By backing that die out of the press a little you minimise the roll crimp so it only straightens the case mouth. If you adjusted it for crimping a shim of the right thickness can be made to go between the locking ring and the top of the press. As mentioned the Lee Factory Crimp Die also works well.

Let me add an alternative; Since you are single loading leave the flare. this will create a slight "funnel effect" If the flared case mouth is the diameter or .001-.002" over the chamber neck diameter. You will then be letting the chamber neck remove the taper for a perfect fit. That helps seal the chamber preventing gas blow back withreduced and light loads. It also helps center the bullet in the throat. An added benifit is less working of the case mouth so they don't split as quickly. This is what I do for my single load cartridges in my M94s. Works very well.

Larry Gibson

[Boomer Mikey]

I'm using Redding taper crimp dies for these purposes.

A taper crimp is less sensitive to small variations in case length and provides a much longer, gradual application of the crimp with good feedback "feel" to the user.

I use "M" dies to load everything resulting in less run-out and eliminating stretched, crooked case necks.

For single shot work Larry Gibson's notes about case flare is good advise.

Boomer

[subsonic]

Thanks for the ideas. I think I'm going to trim all of the cases (all are below max) so that I can hit them all with the roll-crimp "lightly" and turn the shoulder back to where it goes. I bell them with the Lee thing, which leaves the belling off-center - so I don't want it to help "center" my cartridge in the chamber...

Next time I see some .32ACP dies used/cheap.... I'm gonna play with them! Might make for a good "carbide neck sizer", expander, and taper crimper for the .30-30! :drinks:

Wonder if the .32ACP sizer would give more or less neck tension?

[crowbeaner]

I just used the crimper in the set of RCBS dies and crimped moderately in the crimp groove. I never had any problems with boolits being pushed in while in the magazine even under recoil.

[RU shooter]

Have you tried not crimping at all? I dont on my 32 Winnie and have no issues even with full power loads .

[dragonrider]

I remove the bell in this manner, I take the expander button out of the size die, run the loaded round back into the size die untill it hits the neck size area, and with just a little effort, you will feel it, the bell is remove and nice little crimp is made.

[runfiverun]

with the long neck of a 30-30 and the light loads you will probably be using you may not have to single load or roll crimp.
a crimp on a lot of these cartridges is to keep the boolit from pushing into the case
under recoil.
some levers will feed into the chamber without dragging on anything.
play with it some, see what works for YOUR rifle.