Help with lee 356-120-TC in shield 9mm and ruger 9mm carbine

[Mleon]

Anyone have luck with the Lee 356-120-TC in 9mm for shield and ruger 9mm carbine? I worked up powder coated loads with titegroup from 3.3 grains to 3.8 grains. Sized to 0.356 with lee sizer. No consistant groups with either gun and any load, very disappointed. I dont know what to do, any suggestions?

[Dusty Bannister]

If your bullet sized at .356" is a slide fit in a fired case, then that tells you to go a little larger to fill the throat. If you slugged the throat and barrel, you probably have a slightly undersized bullet. Are these numbers you quote actual readings with a micrometer, or just what is stamped on the die?

[gwpercle]

I've had some success with this one.
Size them .357 or .358 , lubed with Lithi-Bee lubricant .
start with 4.7 grains of Unique .
work up to a max. of 5.2 grains Unique.
I get good accuracy with a WWII Walther P38 with 4.7 grs . Unique, shoots right to the P38's fixed sights. No leading .
The 5.2 load is a little stiff for the old P38
Gary

[Mleon]

Thanks guys I havent slugged my guns yet. I tried without sizing and couldnt get to fit in the case gague. Using mixed brass, it could be the crimp. Seems to be a tuff round with the taper and crimp. If I crimp too little some brass dont chamber alittle bit at the end by the primer. Have to crimp more to get to chamber but starts to dig into the bullet too much. Also some powder paint scrapes off the base regardless of the bell. Maybe my lead is too soft too. 40 cal and 380 cast worked so better for me. No problems with JHP or FMJ in 9mm, but I want to make accurate cast ammo. Just wondering if any shield or ruger 9pc owners had the same issue and figured it out. Thanks

[Dusty Bannister]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Read through this sticky a couple of times and take some notes so you will have a path to follow instead of just jumping around wondering just what is wrong.

[Mleon]

Thank you

[JeffG]

I have a shield in 9 and 40. I use the 356-120-TC in all my nines, sized .357, of COWW plus 2-3% tin. Also, the brass should be sized. I use an M die for expansion and have no issue with bullet being swaged down in size. With 4.4 grains Unique and seated to 1.070 with NRA #2 lube, it just works. At most, I get a little antimony wash, which will brush right out. Do look at the sticky that Dusty recommended.

[Mleon]

Thank you!

[bedbugbilly]

I use that boolit in my 9mm Shield and it shoots good for me. I use "range lead" so I'm sure the alloy varies from batch to batch but I size mine to .357 though the Lee sizing die. I don't PC - I just tumble lube in paste wax/alox.s I also use range brass so mixed head stamps. I haven't loaded any in a while but when I was, I was loading for the 9mm Shield and a Ruger SR9. I tried sizing them .358 but had some chambering issues in the SR9 so just dropped back to .357. (I have since sold the SR9).

I was loading with Bulls Eye and had to up my charge .2 in order to cycle the Shield.

I'm using Lee dies with the FCD. Brass will vary in thickness and I know that sometimes the crimp dug in to the boolit a little but they seemed to shoot just fine as far as accuracy. I keep a cartridge gauge on the bench when I load for 9mm and 380ACP just to make sure things stay within specs.

I'm no expert - I've used PC that I've purchased but they have been .357 IIRC. I'm thinking that you'll see some improvement if you size them to .357. If you try .358 and they chamber in your guns, then I'd certainly give that a try as well.

Don't get discouraged, you'll figure it out. Sometimes it can be little frustrating along the way - take good notes and once you find wheat works for you, write it down so you have it to refer too overtime you sit down to reload that caliber. Best of luck!

[Mleon]

I slugged the 9mm shield. Two grooves were 0.3550 and one was 0.3555. You would think the 0.356 sized PC bullets would work.

[sigep1764]

Usually you want 2 thousandths over. I'd try 357. All mine get sized 358.

[OldBearHair]

Rack a loaded round and eject. Check for rifling marks all the way to the brass. If there are , then get Doug to fix it. Another is to check your brass for being short in length. Seems very little crimp is needed for 9MM. X3 on the Sticky

[gwpercle]

After 50 years of handgun reloading I thought I had it all figured out. Then my dad gives me a 9mm Walther P38 . The 9mm and cast boolits are a son of a batch to get sorted out. The P38 wasn't bad because it has a long throat and generous chamber, 4 other pistols, one a Shield gave me fits...tight chambers and little or no throats....boolits like to jamb right into the rifling...the 9mm is a stinker in new guns.
You will have to figure out bullet best bullet diameter (.357 or .358) and the the boolit seating depth!
I don't care what the book says they will need to be seated deep enough so they plunk into and drop out of your guns barrel....not any stinking gauge...use your barrel.
Once you get diameter and depth figured out then it's on to load development....once you find an accurate load that reliably cycles the pistol without beating it to death....You got it !
Momma never said loading cast boolits in a 9mm was going to be easy.....and it's not , but don't give up just keep working with it.
This 9mm/cast project was the only time I actually cursed at a boolit....I wasn't sure I was going to beat it but perseverance paid off !
Gary

[marek313]

Sounds like you might benefit from getting your throat reamed so you can seat .357. I was having problems with my Canik TP9 SFX that had little to no throat and all I could seat was short .356 rounds. Didnt shoot accurately and started cutting lead pieces and rings off the bullets. Just wasnt good at all so I had Doug here ream throat to .357 and now it shoots fine but I'm shooting .357 now which I think has everything to do with your problems.

Also I prefer Lee 356-125-2R over 356-120-TC which dropped small for me around .355 and wasnt accurate at all. I use 356-125-2R in all my 9s and my Ruger GP100 MC sized at .357. Under 5gr of HP38 in 38S cases its deadly accurate. My 356-120-TC is not going to be used much I can tell you that. 356-125-2R doesnt work well with tight throats or you'll have to seat it deep though.

See my thread here maybe it will help you too:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?365526-Problem-with-Canik-TP9-SFX-and-cast

[Mleon]

Thanks guys. I will be ordering a 0.357 sizer. I will have to melt some more lead, shake and bake and give another try. If that doesnt work will try reaming great ideas

[Mleon]

Question: If the throat reamer is needed for cast bullets will it mess up the accurcacy of FMJ or JHP bullets? It sounds like a one or the other scenario.

[Cherokee]

Mleon - No, jacketed bullets will continue to work as they did before.

[marek313]

Question: If the throat reamer is needed for cast bullets will it mess up the accurcacy of FMJ or JHP bullets? It sounds like a one or the other scenario.

Its not one or the other. Having a generous throat helps bullets align as they exit brass and get swaged and cut into rifling. Makes it a better all around barrel for any ammo in my opinion. Just like adding crown cut to your barrel it makes it more accurate with any round. Same thing. Your not giving up anything by getting it done but helps big time with shooting lead.

You have to remember most barrels are manufactured to shoot strictly FMJs. If you want to shoot lead your on your own to get that gun to do that so many people that shoot lead get their barrels touched up.

[Mleon]

What size throat reamer do you think I need for my measurements? 0.357 or 0.358?

[mattw]

I am a little crazy about crimping, I do it in a second step for all of the rounds I shot. That prevents digging into the bullet during the final seating and applying crimp. Additionally, as has been stated, .356 is likely a little to small and will probably not work well. My 9's get .357+ or even .358 depending upon the gun.

[fredj338]

Go bigger than 0.356". Probably the biggest issue with cast in 9mm is bullets are often too small. I run 0.357" in all my 9mm guns, 124-160gr. I never get tumbling or poor accuracy, coated or lubed. I know guys that run 0.358", but with mixed brass in some guns, you are going to get fit issues. Plus I shun TG for lead bullets, but I am probably in the minority there.

[Moonie]

I size to .357 for all my 9mm, works well in all the 9mm guns we have. YMMV

[JeffG]

Question: If the throat reamer is needed for cast bullets will it mess up the accurcacy of FMJ or JHP bullets? It sounds like a one or the other scenario.

IMO, you have a lot more things to check and do before going the throated route. You are going to be disappointed if you do that and it is still leading after that. I can run my 9 shield sized .357 with no powder coating, with coal of 1.07 and all I get is a little wash that brushes out. Get it sized to .357 and make sure they are lubed well. Slower powders like Unique or BE-86 may help too if you have that.

[Mleon]

I know. Do you think HP38 or universal would work better than titegroup? I also have those.

[Cherokee]

I like 231, same as HP38.

[marek313]

I think we are all mostly on the same page in recommending .357+ but that all only matters if you can actually chamber it or "plink test" it that size. If you can only chamber .356 like my Canik TP9 SFX did then I dont see any real options but to throat ream that sucker. Recommendations I got was to seat short and try the Lee 356-120-TC but neither worked for me. It was like putting a band aid on a wound that requires several stitches. Once i was able to chamber .357 everything clicked and I was accurately shooting the same load as my P320 - 4.2gr of HP38 under .357 Lee 356-125-2R which from my understanding is a pretty popular target load used by many with great success.

Also if you are going to ream it I wouldnt recommend doing it yourself. I'm pretty handy with tools but if you read some of DougGuy's comments dealing with carbide reamers and correct size pilots in order to keep reamer alligned with the rest of the bore etc etc. For the cost of couple cigarette packs Doug here will ream it properly and crown it for you. Maybe if I was doing multiple barrels I would consider getting a reamer but right now I only needed one reamed so I let Doug do it right.

[marek313]

I know. Do you think HP38 or universal would work better than titegroup? I also have those.

Titegroup burns very fast and very hot so its not exactly perfect powder for cast. HP38/W231 or unique are better choices. Slower burning powders work better with cast and fill case better so no double charges are possible. HP38/W231 doesnt burn completely in light loads and gets dirty but you will probably notice soot on your brass since at those lower pressures it doesnt seal brass properly neither. If you notice that just bump it up little bit. 4.0-4.2 of HP38/W231 works for many people here for a nice and soft target load under 125gr cast bullet. Unique, WSF, Power Pistol, HS6 and many others could also be used as well with good success in 9mm but I think you'll have better luck with slower powders over Titegroup.

[Mleon]

Thank you will try

[Shingle]

Every 9mm barrel i get has throat re-cut before I use it. I havent noticed any adverse accuracy issues from it.